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00:35:57 <Ashenzari> Mephitic cloud travels further with Shift+Dir (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=582) by jedwardh
00:50:02 <Keskitalo> Morning!
00:50:03 <Henzell> Keskitalo: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
00:51:03 <due> Heya Eino
00:51:21 <Keskitalo> Hi! Looks like ircnet has a bot named Henzell too.
00:51:54 <due> Cool!
00:52:02 <due> Also, I updated the tiles builld
00:52:05 <due> This seems to have fixed it.
00:53:06 <Keskitalo> Thanks! Maybe we need to update who you can contact on that page? :)
00:53:13 <Keskitalo> That Henzell didn't have any messages for me btw.
00:53:42 <due> Aw, poor other Henzell!
00:53:47 <due> and yes, maybe we should.
00:53:55 <due> Currently filling tow interface FRs :)
00:54:25 <Keskitalo> ..we have towing now?
00:54:33 <due> ... two :)
00:55:49 <syllogism> it only shows the first ring when it asks you which one to replace
00:56:07 <Keskitalo> Filling as in implementing?
00:56:28 <due> Yeah
00:56:55 <due> I've done {was cursed} inscriptions
00:57:06 <due> and just finished portal vaults' messages being automatically added to the travel stoppers list
01:04:10 <CIA-78> 03due * r942ab6b6d0b9 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/clua/lm_tmsg.lua l_crawl.cc): Lua wrapper for travel_stoppers, auto-add portal vault messages.
01:04:21 <CIA-78> 03due * r7a9b696ee806 10/crawl-ref/ (7 files in 3 dirs): Option to inscribe items being uncursed as "was cursed".
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01:11:52 <CIA-78> 03due 07wizlab * rb42847f0e181 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: Fix Hellbinder's name, remove lava.
01:11:54 <CIA-78> 03due 07wizlab * rb1fd1d21f6e2 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/wizlab.des: Use door_restrict in the Borgnjor WizLab.
01:12:01 <due> 44222, nicenumber.
01:14:39 <Keskitalo> due: Nnnice.
01:16:34 <Napkin> how about "was cursed" only as long as you don't see the precise values?
01:16:48 <Napkin> only usable for weapons though, huh?
01:17:09 <ogaz> "was cursed" would also be nice for jewelry that you don't ID scrolls for at that moment
01:17:10 <due> No, any cursed item.
01:17:13 <due> and it's an option.
01:17:18 <ogaz> <3
01:17:31 <Napkin> ok
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01:30:10 <syllogism> hey a shaft can drop you down to vault 8?
01:30:37 <due> I think so
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01:30:46 <due> A shaft took me to Elf:7 once, into the chamber
01:33:29 <CIA-78> 03due * ra3fe300c4b1f 10/crawl-ref/source/l_dgnit.cc: Fix item_pickup Triggerables (elliptic).
01:33:31 <CIA-78> 03due * r86b4029fb5cc 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/ (hells.des tomb.des zot.des): Use KMASK no_item_gen to prevent Triggerable issues.
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01:41:12 <due> hey mu
01:41:24 <due> Any Wizlab polishes you'v ecmoe up with?
01:41:28 * due working on the cigotuvi monster.
01:41:34 <due> dpeg wants him to die in a huge cloud of mutagenic fog :)
01:43:45 <Mu_> heh
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01:45:39 <Mu_> well i don't think "<name>'s Lair" is much of a milestone, it'd be nice if it still printed like 'xx entered the Lair of Xyz the Cloud Mage'
01:45:58 <due> Sure
01:46:18 <Mu_> maybe name the actual wizards like that too
01:46:26 <due> Hm.
01:47:34 <Mu_> should prolly give the wizards descriptions too
01:47:43 <Mu_> i think loot in all of the wizlabs needs going over
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01:48:11 <due> hey adam
01:48:19 <due> Descriptions++
01:48:22 <due> Loot definitely
01:48:31 <due> the early ones are quite balanced
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01:49:24 <due> ??mantis
01:49:24 <Henzell> mantis[1/2]: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/
01:49:33 <due> mspang: File an issue there and mark it with "has patch". :)
01:49:35 <due> If you're feeling very lazy
01:49:45 <due> You can paste a link to it here and I can look over it
01:50:13 <mspang> testing it now
01:50:30 <mspang> I play crawl on a PS3 and trunk just crashes
01:50:33 <due> What's it for?
01:50:36 <due> Ah
01:51:03 <mspang> it takes a while to compile on a ps3 ;-)
01:51:03 <due> There was an issue with turnk tiles builds just crashing as well, but according to purge, this has been fixed when I updated the tiles builds.
01:51:07 <due> (Tiles and windows only)
01:51:07 <due> :)
01:51:16 <due> Cool, though!
01:51:25 <due> What was the crash?
01:51:38 <mspang> segfault
01:51:43 <mspang> during startup
01:51:57 <due> hm, odd
01:52:06 <due> and the patch?
01:52:13 <mspang> you used "char" and expected it to be signed
01:52:15 <mspang> I changed it to signed
01:52:29 <due> hm
01:52:30 <mspang> somebody did rather
01:52:38 <mspang> but like I said it's compiling
01:54:04 <due> yeah
01:54:06 <due> you're right
01:54:12 <due> which char? :)
01:54:26 <mspang> for you.inv
01:54:32 <due> ah, nasty.
01:54:42 <mspang> it doesn't compare equal with -1
01:54:52 <mspang> and an invalid pointer is returned through you.weapon()
01:54:54 <due> isn't inv a fixed_vector?
01:54:59 <mspang> yes
01:55:01 <due> Er.
01:55:03 <mspang> it's full of 255s
01:55:09 <due> oh, odd
01:55:15 <due> I thought it was an item_def vector
01:55:43 <mspang> nope, chars
01:55:49 <mspang> the defs are somewhere else
01:56:01 <due> FixedVector< item_def, ENDOFPACK > inv;
01:56:03 <due> that one?
01:56:23 <mspang> apparently I lied
01:56:26 <mspang> the one with chars
01:56:28 <mspang> lemme find it
01:56:30 <due> heh
01:56:31 <due> equip?
01:56:42 <due> yeah
01:56:46 <due> FixedVector<char, NUM_EQUIP> equip;
01:56:49 <mspang> yeah, equip
01:57:07 <due> Hitting player.h takes forever and a millenium
01:57:13 <mspang> THAT one is full of 255 since it's unsigned on ppc
01:57:18 <due> Yeah
01:57:24 <due> Thanks!
01:57:34 <due> Have you got a git-format-patch patch that I can apply?
01:57:48 <mspang> one second
01:58:32 <Keskitalo> PS3 as in PlayStation 3? :-o
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01:58:47 <henryci> dpeg's long gone, right?
01:59:00 <by> hello
01:59:00 <Henzell> by: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
01:59:10 <by> !messages
01:59:10 <Henzell> (1/1) doy said (7h 33m 50s ago): that helped a decent amount (it's about twice as fast as before), but still nowhere near 0.5 speeds/:
01:59:17 <mspang> Keskitalo: yep
02:00:33 <mspang> https://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~mspang/0001-Use-signed-char-for-equip.patch
02:00:35 <mspang> I still haven't tested it
02:00:40 <mspang> it seems to be recompiling everything
02:00:49 <mspang> on terrain.o
02:01:09 <by> henryci: there's nothing in the coding conventions against documenting your functions
02:01:45 <Keskitalo> mspang: Very nice. :)
02:01:46 <due> Henzell: Yeah, long gone.
02:01:58 <due> mspang: player.h is included in 99% of crawl files
02:01:59 <Keskitalo> Hi Rob!
02:02:07 <due> henryci: Yes, dpeg's gone.
02:02:12 <due> mspang: Thank you! I will apply it.
02:02:16 <mspang> due: makes sense
02:02:18 <by> Keskitalo: hi
02:02:24 <Keskitalo> Commenting the functions would be very very nice. :)
02:03:04 <due> Comment especially if it's unclear
02:03:25 <due> But there's no convention against it. :)
02:04:01 <Keskitalo> Our minihealthbars actually lacked communication about how it should behave; jpeg's bugfix changed the intended behaviour. Should've been in a comment, I think we'll fix that today with felirx. :)
02:04:02 <by> I think we should do doxygen-style function documentation actually, for functions that are exported
02:04:16 <mspang> might want to hold off on applying that, it still doesn't work
02:04:17 <due> by: That would be really nice.
02:04:27 <due> mspang: :(
02:04:45 <Keskitalo> by: Yes, we talked how nice that would be with felirx. :) Comment at the beginning of the function, explaining it..
02:04:46 <due> mspang: Still needs to be applied, though.
02:04:57 <due> The other thing that wouldbe nice would be Lua function documentation.
02:05:06 <due> I discussed this with Enne, but we couldn't come up with any sane or easy way to do it.
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02:06:49 <mspang> wait
02:06:50 <mspang> I recompiled
02:06:54 <due> There are probably other instances of char being compared to -1 that I can think of.
02:06:56 <mspang> again. and it worked
02:06:59 <due> Hooray!
02:07:01 <mspang> but only player.o was compoiled
02:07:05 <mspang> I dunno what happened
02:07:07 <due> Odd.
02:07:10 <mspang> I clearly did someing insane while it was building
02:07:25 <mspang> anyway, I can play on the PS3 now >.>
02:07:28 <due> Heh
02:07:49 <due> Pushed, thank you!
02:07:58 <CIA-78> 03mspang * r066adbb1b7d7 10/crawl-ref/source/player.h: Use signed char for player::equip.
02:09:37 <due> What's our threshold for adding someone to cREDITS/
02:11:17 <Keskitalo> Low.
02:11:25 <due> Does that constitute?
02:11:29 <Keskitalo> Yes. :)
02:11:38 <due> :)
02:11:54 <due> mspang: Let us know if you run into any other issues with PPC!
02:12:00 <CIA-78> 03due * r81f01216f7d5 10/crawl-ref/CREDITS.txt: Add mspang to the credits.
02:12:28 <mspang> due: will do
02:12:39 <Keskitalo> mspang: Thanks!
02:12:41 <mspang> there are 5-6 people who play on it (it's in the university machine room)
02:13:03 <mspang> all it does it run crawl and to a lesser extend nethack
02:13:08 <Keskitalo> mspang: Awesome! :D
02:13:14 <due> Awesome!!
02:13:35 <CIA-78> 03due * r859237a79512 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/volcano.des: Tweak Volcano exit description.
02:13:41 <Keskitalo> mspang: Is it difficult to install if you already have Linux on the machine?
02:14:13 <Keskitalo> (I have a friend with such setup. He said there's not much software to run on it. :))
02:14:25 <mspang> we have ubuntu on there
02:14:30 <mspang> so... plenty of software
02:14:34 <mspang> but not many that uses the SPUs
02:15:40 <Keskitalo> Ah, I see. He told me that a while ago, it might have changed - or he might have meant *interesting* software. :P
02:15:57 <Keskitalo> In a PS3-specific way, or something. But Crawl definitely is interesting! :))
02:16:04 <sorear> due: I got into CREDITS for a one-line change to levdes.vim
02:16:58 <sorear> everyone who has ever patched Crawl is in there, except Johnny 'cryo_' Shelly and maybe others in similar circumstances
02:17:13 <by> he declined?
02:17:34 <sorear> he asked to be taken out after becoming disillusioned with the dev process
02:17:47 <sorear> AM was his baby and he didn't like the changes that were made to it
02:19:59 <Keskitalo> mspang: How's the coffee room highscore list btw? :)
02:20:10 <Keskitalo> err
02:20:13 <Keskitalo> machine room
02:28:02 <due> sorear: Heh, I haven't seen him since the last batch of changes I made to AM.
02:28:11 <due> But I think it is a wholly more rounded class now.
02:29:00 <due> Does anyone know the stash code well enough to write a wizmode function that adds the contents of a level to the tracker?
02:30:01 <sorear> Keskitalo: Is mspang with your group?
02:31:28 <due> Isn't .ca = Canada?
02:31:34 <due> Whereas .fi = Finaldn?
02:32:16 <due> Finaldn?
02:32:28 <due> That sounds like a cool place to  live.
02:36:51 <sorear> .ca is canada, .fi is finland, and you would not beleive how many people think .de is denmark
02:37:59 <Keskitalo> sorear: No, he's not.
02:38:30 <Keskitalo> due: Finaldn sounds like a good name for a unique. :)
02:46:35 <due> Ooh.
02:46:37 <due> Finaldin.
02:46:52 <due> Fineldynn! ;)
02:47:00 <due> sorear: Ahahahahaha, .de is germany!
02:47:07 <due> Denmark is what, dn? dm?
02:47:26 <by> dk?
02:47:59 <due> Ah, .dk!
02:50:56 <Keskitalo> Eek, someone should do an ice cave with snowy trees.
02:51:02 <due> Ooh, good idea.
02:53:01 <bhaak> and Santa as a unique?
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02:57:25 <Keskitalo> purge: Are you on? I added some feedback on the snake rune submission.
02:57:31 <purge> yeah i am on
02:58:10 <Keskitalo> It's really good minus the style discrepancy.
02:59:07 <Keskitalo> By which I mean how it looks "rendered" rather than "pixeled" - "Diablo" versus "Crawl" actually. :)
02:59:34 <sorear> I wonder (talking completely cluelessly here) if style discrepancy might be a good thing, used tastefully
02:59:47 <sorear> in ASCII we recently gave runes elemental colors
02:59:51 <henryci> Does anybody know where the find code (ctrl+f) lives?
02:59:58 <sorear> this makes them look completely unlike 'ordinary' items
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03:00:09 <sorear> and it's been a quite positive change
03:01:03 <Keskitalo> sorear: We could do a similar special effect in Tiles.
03:01:11 <Keskitalo> Would anyone like to code up a particle engine? :D
03:01:22 <sorear> Keskitalo: I'm wondering if rendered tiles *is* a good special effect
03:01:41 <sorear> it's unique but not *too* jarring, looking at purge's screenshot anyway
03:01:49 <Twinge> henryci: stash.cc maybe?
03:01:51 <Keskitalo> I don't think it would.
03:02:00 <Twinge> henryci: The 'Search for What?' text is in there anyway
03:02:09 <sorear> Keskitalo: Ah, oh well
03:03:52 <due> henryci: It's stash.cc, I'm pretty sure.
03:07:07 <henryci> It is stash.cc.  Still getting a feel for what's where.
03:07:35 <henryci> trying to determine the best way to determine if a given alter is reachable.
03:07:43 <due> Heh.
03:07:47 <due> The stair changing code for monsters?
03:07:48 <due> files.cc.
03:08:09 <due> henryci: There should be something in the travel code for "is_reachable_pos"
03:11:08 <henryci> due you'd think so.
03:12:13 <due> There is code for it though.
03:12:19 <henryci> I think the best way is to use travel_pathfind
03:12:27 <henryci> which returns info about the path to get to a given spot
03:12:35 <henryci> and if the path is less than 0 it's unreachable.
03:12:52 <purge> Keskitalo: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/file_download.php?file_id=214&type=bug
03:12:55 <Twinge> henryci: If you  could figure a way to sort the Ctrl-F list by distance on the level you're on, that'd be sweet :)
03:13:07 <due> Twinge: It should be sorted by that?
03:13:30 <due> I like the pixelated more.
03:13:41 <henryci> It's not already sorted by total distance to each?
03:14:14 <due> I was pretty sure it was.
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03:20:30 <Twinge> due: It isn't unless it was changed just recently.  I'm referring to distance from you even for stuff on the same level, so it should show stuff next to you first and stuff across the lvel later
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03:20:57 <due> Huh.
03:21:02 <due> I thoguht it did.
03:21:11 <due> It's doable though.
03:21:19 <due> Just need to sort by distance between you.pos() and item.pos()
03:21:40 <Twinge> I'll double check real quick, but it annoyingly didn't last time I wanted to, and that was only ~2 weeks ago or so on trunk
03:22:06 <henryci> can_travel_to :)
03:23:00 <henryci> Twinge: I've got a reasonable handle on the travel code now.  If it doesn't sort, bug me about it after I submit the overmap stuff and I can do it.
03:24:47 <by> afaik,  it's sorted only by distance == number of stairs you need to take
03:24:58 <Twinge> Okay.  Just double checked, it doesn't sort.  At least for a '.' search
03:24:58 <due> by: Ahhh.
03:25:06 <due> Twinge: Oh, hey, can you do something for me?
03:25:13 <Twinge> Perhaps? =)
03:25:52 <due> Eh, never mind, I'm being too lazy. :)
03:26:07 <cbus> is there any highscore for CDO?
03:26:14 <by> another thing on my travel/autoexplore wish-list: don't try to move to unvisited squares, but try to get in view of unseen squares
03:26:44 <due> by: That would be nice.
03:26:56 <due> No complaints on today's glyph changes? :)
03:28:32 <Twinge> Copying a possible issue from SA forums -
03:28:32 <Twinge> Is there a way to assign your butchering tool besides just hitting 'c' for the first time?
03:28:32 <Twinge> I ask because I am playing a lot of Demonspawn and like half of them get sharp fingernails. This mutation automatically decides that using their hands is the best way to butcher, and this forces me to remove my randart gloves everytime I butcher. If I get interrupted I always forget to reequip them until I notice I'm 4AC lower than normal. I'd rather just use a knife and keep my gloves on.
03:28:44 * due unsure.
03:29:08 <Twinge> Then again, that won't be an issue anymore if we get rid of most of the butchering tedium anyway
03:30:30 <cbus> twinge, I already bugreported it
03:30:58 <Napkin> cbus - stable and oldstable and dev each should have a highscore file of its own
03:31:06 <Napkin> is it empty again?
03:31:22 <cbus> dunno where to find it :)
03:36:02 <due> Keskitalo: Sorry :((
03:36:19 <Twinge> cbus: Ah okay
03:36:34 <due> Keskitalo: I killed purgy :(
03:38:21 <Keskitalo> Bad due!
03:38:33 <Keskitalo> Purgy should be especially weak against pacification. ;)
03:38:34 <cbus> napkin, not linked on the page (or I've missed it)
03:38:38 <sorear> Twinge: Strictly speaking, there is no 'assigning a butchering tool' - the game automatically picks any known-uncursed safe item
03:39:03 <Keskitalo> due: I've actually seen Sewer milestones for Purgy, so the weight thing seems to be working.
03:39:05 <cbus> twinge, syllogism told me something like "soon you won't be able to use gloves" :)
03:39:12 <due> Keskitalo: Yeah, it's great
03:40:04 <Twinge> I see
03:44:02 <Keskitalo> purge: Thanks, especially the brown one looks a much better fit now!
03:44:30 <Keskitalo> purge: In the grey one, the rune itself on the item is hard to see.
03:44:59 <Keskitalo> But the brown one looks really good!
03:45:18 <purge> cool
03:45:25 <purge> well only 1 can be used anyways!
03:45:36 <due> I like the brown one.
03:45:59 <Keskitalo> purge: Yeah, I think we can go ahead with the brown one.
03:46:10 <purge> Keskitalo: it can always be changed heh
03:46:17 <purge> or improved further
03:50:27 <Napkin> no, not linked anymore, cbus
03:51:01 <Napkin> but greensnark and rax are planning to enhance the stats pages on CAO with dev-versions too
03:52:18 <cbus> ahh ok
03:52:30 <by> due: re glyph changes, I kind of like earth elementals on #, but would like them to have wall-like properties, too, which is not currently balancable
03:53:03 <by> due: also, fire elementals as monstrous clouds is not that far off I think
03:53:20 <Napkin> so many "Partly explored, can't reach some places." in Lair suddenly
03:53:48 <Napkin> there is no easy way to find out which place auto-explore is talking about.. right?
03:56:57 <by> // Randomise to make counting off monster moves harder
03:57:05 <by> in _monster_add_energy
03:57:22 <by> unfortunately, there's nothing random there if you're normal speed or the monster is normal speed
03:59:02 <by> what do you think of putting a + random2(3) - 1 in there?
03:59:17 <Napkin> why?
03:59:24 <by> aka 1/3 chance of -1, 1/3 chance of 0, 1/3 chance of +1 for monster energy each move
03:59:40 <Napkin> does it have to be random?
04:00:21 <by> it's currently entirely predictable if monster->speed * you.time_taken is a multiple of 10, but not otherwise
04:00:33 <by> that's ugly
04:01:00 <Napkin> ja - isn't that good?
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04:03:18 <due> by: Sure, but having monsters are feature glyphs is problematic and confusnig.
04:03:32 <due> I think earth elementals should have the rock worm behaviour of walking through walls.
04:03:48 <by> due: I agree re problematic
04:04:01 <greensnark> by: +1 to randomising energy
04:04:05 <due> greensnark! <3333
04:04:16 <greensnark> But maybe use random2avg(3,2)
04:04:17 <Napkin> :(
04:04:35 <greensnark> Afternoon due on the grass :)
04:04:39 <greensnark> Hi Napkin :)
04:04:49 <Napkin> hey greensnark :)
04:04:52 <greensnark> I'm only here for a bit :/
04:05:00 <by> ok, will give it a try; the obvious big impact would be on pillar dancing and on trying to escape to the staircase
04:05:08 <by> has it not been tried before?
04:05:15 <greensnark> due: If earth elementals can walk through walls, you'll have to weaken them as well
04:05:18 <Napkin> do I get that this random2avg(3,2) too then?
04:05:22 <greensnark> by: It hasn't been tried
04:05:51 <greensnark> Napkin: random2avg(3,2) => roll 0-2 twice and take the average
04:06:16 <by> that would be 2/3 0, 1/6 each for +- 1 I think
04:06:32 <by> Napkin: the player speed wouldn't be randomized
04:06:35 <greensnark> Too little?
04:06:43 <by> no idea, will try :)
04:06:48 <Napkin> i know my luck.. it'll mean the kobold will have 50 times +1 speed in a row...
04:06:50 <greensnark> Yeah, it may be too little
04:07:19 <greensnark> Ok, yoiu're right, we should stick with random2(3) and adjust it if monsters are lurching around too much
04:07:20 <by> Napkin: I think the extra speed is tracked over rounds, so it will get an extra move at most every 10 moves I think
04:07:34 <greensnark> And for +1 enegy there shouldn't be issues
04:07:46 <greensnark> Do it :)
04:07:56 * Napkin bites the table *
04:08:10 * greensnark gives Napkin a gingerbread table.
04:08:30 <greensnark> This change will make my legendary worm dance risky, but risky is good :)
04:08:39 <Napkin> with my luck i'll bite the 1 stone found in 10 gingerbread tables anyways ;)
04:08:43 <by> @?? worm
04:08:43 <Gretell> worm (04w) | Speed: 6 | HD: 5 | Health: 15-40 | AC/EV: 1/5 | Damage: 12 | Res: 06magic(13) | XP: 12.
04:08:48 <Napkin> no, not risky
04:09:46 <Napkin> it's play the dice
04:09:47 <due> greensnark: Sure, I think so.
04:09:53 <Napkin> boooh!
04:09:59 <due> But I think all the elementals should be on the same glyph so it makes sense.
04:10:03 <due> What are we talking about randomisation?
04:10:10 <due> Just for worms?
04:10:12 <due> I like that.
04:10:14 <due> For everything?
04:10:17 <due> I'm not sure howot hat impacts.
04:10:21 <greensnark> For everything
04:10:25 <greensnark> It won't affect muchj
04:10:33 <due> It will affect fast monsters.
04:10:41 <due> Just movement energy, or all energy?
04:10:46 <greensnark> But anybody who's doing the step-hit-hit dance with Gastronok is going to be pleasantly surprised
04:10:49 <greensnark> All energy
04:10:56 <due> I think that's too much.
04:11:02 <greensnark> It'll average out to nothing
04:11:15 <due> And sometimes a hydra will get an extra bite out of you that you didn't expect?
04:11:20 <greensnark> Monsters normally get 10 energy per standard turn
04:11:27 <greensnark> Now it'll be 9/10/11
04:11:29 <due> Hm.
04:11:31 <due> Okay.
04:11:31 <sorear> greensnark: random2avg isn't quite like that
04:11:42 <greensnark> sorear: I know it isn't quite like that
04:11:44 <sorear> random2avg(3,2) is (0-2 + 0-3)/2
04:11:49 <sorear> I'm not sure what this does
04:11:51 <greensnark> I was keeping it simple
04:11:59 <due> Sure, okay.
04:12:03 <due> What does the player get? :)
04:12:06 <greensnark> It does that to avoid roundoff causing uneven distribution in integer math
04:12:37 <greensnark> due: The player gets a slower monster 1/3 of the time :P
04:12:41 <due> Heh.
04:12:48 <due> Can we see it in a branch?
04:12:49 <greensnark> To compensate for them getting a faster monster 1/3 of the time :P
04:12:55 <Twinge> I had thought the predictability was a good thing in most cases - you have a solid base to plan from.  If speed 10 vs speed 2 can randomly get in an extra hit that seems pretty awful honestly
04:12:55 <by> no
04:12:57 <greensnark> No, I think it should be in master
04:13:00 <due> Okay.
04:13:13 <greensnark> And it doesn't make a given monster faster or slower
04:13:18 <Twinge> er, speed 10 vs speed 10
04:13:24 <greensnark> Just a minor variation in the energy it gets per turnm
04:13:28 <due> Yeah.
04:13:33 <due> I was confused until you said energy. :)
04:14:02 <sorear> Twinge: The crawl speed system uses sufficiently small numbers that, if you know the special cases, you can keep an exact mental model in your head
04:14:32 <Napkin> for now
04:14:33 <sorear> Not like ADOM, where tracking CERs for multiple actors to three significant figures is unfeasable
04:14:43 <Napkin> I have no doubt more random will be added :-P
04:14:47 <sorear> in Crawl, you don't have energy, and monster energy is 0-9
04:14:55 <due> I don't think it'll have such a major impact on things.
04:15:06 <sorear> so you only need one short term memory slot to game the speed system w/o notes
04:15:18 <greensnark> It'll have a minor impact on pillar dancing, but I think it may actually improve the scene there
04:15:42 <greensnark> I should try a nice DEMo or something
04:15:51 <due> That would be good.
04:15:59 <due> Also
04:16:01 <due> Victory dancing.
04:16:06 <due> We have to fix it. I am sick and tired of it. :/
04:16:07 * greensnark goes back to work.
04:16:35 <by> sorear: what do you think? might this work?
04:16:35 * sorear hahas at people in #adom: "Bad balance is part of the game, it's not a bug that should be fixed"
04:16:39 <sorear> by: yes
04:17:23 <due> Okay
04:17:32 <due> "A nearby toadstool withers and dies." needs to be on the runurest ignore messages
04:17:35 <due> Where are those?
04:17:45 <sorear> settings/
04:18:10 <due> danke
04:18:24 <due> Hm, they are on it.
04:19:22 <CIA-78> 03by * r78d78651f0be 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Randomise monster energy slightly.
04:19:24 <CIA-78> 03by * rb16aec54bbff 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-act.cc mon-behv.cc): Debug tracking of calls to _set_nearest_monster_foe.
04:19:25 <CIA-78> 03by * r47e4f693b20b 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Cosmetic.
04:19:26 <CIA-78> 03by * r868ab3306a9b 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-behv.cc: Don't set nearest monster foe for sleeping monsters.
04:19:41 <by> argh, pushed too much :(
04:19:52 <due> Whoops.
04:19:54 <due> Don't you hate that?
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04:20:09 <due> by: Oh, are you playing around with setting of foes?
04:20:24 <by> yes, that's one of the huge CPU wasters
04:20:33 <due> aweosme
04:20:38 <by> I think each sleeping monster currently gets it set three times per turn
04:20:42 <due> Yeah
04:20:45 <due> So do toadstools, I think
04:20:59 <due> Someone is looking at alligators, but they should only get a foe in certain circumstances.
04:23:01 <due> Oh bah
04:23:07 <due> I could've used decomposition bah.
04:23:48 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev
04:23:55 <due> dpeg!
04:23:59 <dpeg> Hi!
04:24:11 <dpeg> due: 'i' for elementals
04:24:14 <due> dpeg: :)
04:24:27 <dpeg> "I hope it is not controversial..." :P
04:24:34 * due laughs.
04:24:47 <due> Eh, I was feeling reckless.
04:24:58 <due> The glyph was empty, and it meant moving monsters off the same glyph as terrain and features.
04:26:57 <due> It doesn't have to be 'i'.
04:27:20 <by> didn't someone want to put monster spriggans on 'i'? no idea why, though
04:27:29 <due> by: "spr<i>ggan".
04:27:46 <due> I don't think that's going to happen before 0.7, though.
04:27:49 <by> they should be 'g'
04:27:54 <by> there's two g in there
04:28:08 <st_> tiny glyph for a tiny person
04:28:16 <due> True.
04:28:18 <Twinge> '
04:29:06 <due> dpeg: I should've said "too controversial" :)
04:30:24 <CIA-78> 03by * r59f2772ef31b 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-behv.cc: Fix compile.
04:30:59 <due> dpeg: anyway, is it an issue?
04:36:01 <dpeg> I usually don't care about this.
04:36:07 <dpeg> But it will cause an outcry :)
04:36:15 <due> Do you disagree with the change?
04:36:26 <due> and an outcry amongst the devs, or the players?
04:36:30 <dpeg> hm, I think that elementals on # is not such a bad idea
04:36:33 <dpeg> oh, players
04:36:39 <due> I think elementals on # is very bad.
04:36:45 <due> Elementals standing next to rock walls in a cloud.
04:36:49 <dpeg> and I would have solved the issue by giving elementals elemental colours
04:37:14 * due shrugs.
04:37:25 <due> I like the change as it is, it looks nice, there's symmetry between them, and the colours seem to fit quite well.
04:37:31 <due> We could change the colours again to be elemental colours.
04:37:36 <dpeg> which may require a keypress at times, but has the nice feature that earth elementals look a bit like walls, air elementals a bit like clouds etc.
04:37:41 <dpeg> but: shrug :)
04:38:36 <due> :)
04:38:45 <due> I've already had TGW complaining that crocodile is a bad monster name.
04:38:52 <due> Well, alligator. Because alligators are a type of crocodile.
04:38:55 <dpeg> generally ignore
04:38:56 <by> dpeg: re cheibriados: I don't care too much about how he should work; kilobyte and you both seem to have stronger opinions, so I think you should agree before I make more changes
04:39:10 <dpeg> by: it is generally hard to have kilobyte agree
04:39:13 <due> And despite the fact that they are completely different colours, names and descriptions, he seems to think that people will *mistake them for each other*.
04:39:20 <dpeg> in particular, when he does not agree, as with Cheibriados
04:39:28 <by> hmm
04:39:58 <dpeg> by: as I see it, the alternative is having on Cheibriados in 0.6, so I'd really like to give my proposal a try
04:40:00 <due> Also, I love fedhas :)
04:40:11 <dpeg> We could also stage a new discussion, but I am wary of them.
04:40:30 <by> dpeg: ok; I want to deal with the performance issues first, however
04:40:45 <dpeg> by: it is obvious (to me) that Chei can be made arbitrarily powerful, despite the conduct. I cannot estimate how much fun will result, though.
04:40:48 <dpeg> by: thank you.
04:41:12 <dpeg> As I said, I am willing to scrap Chei and start again if it's not fun enough.
04:41:14 <due> dpeg: Anyway, I don't mind player controversy, I just kick them out and tellthem to complain to someone who cares :)
04:41:23 <dpeg> But currently, Chei is not strong enough. We don't need another Zin.
04:41:32 <due> dpeg: Chei is interesting. I need to play him a bit more, but currently I'm doing Fedhas, who is *amazing*.
04:41:41 <dpeg> due: yes. Most devs are bad kickers, unfortunately.
04:41:47 <due> The detail and the flavour and the power is really good.
04:41:51 <dpeg> Yes, Fedhas is a bomb.
04:41:53 <due> It is all  nicely balanced and *intersting*.
04:42:09 <dpeg> Charles is doing a really good job.
04:42:10 <due> Jiyva is quite close, but probably because we don't have a dev specifically working on him (well, a dedicated dev-team member), he's missed out a bit.
04:42:19 <due> charles is doing an amazing job, imo.
04:42:27 <dpeg> I am not fully convinced about the latest change to Evolution (it is a slight nerf), but that will be seen.
04:43:08 <dpeg> I really like it that the plant god filled the "hunter god" niche in such an indirect way. Much better than any of the hunter god proposals I've seen (including mine).
04:43:15 <sorear> charles = pointless
04:43:17 <due> Agree.
04:43:20 <due> sorear: Yeah.
04:43:23 <dpeg> sorear: yes!
04:43:29 <due> sorear: charles is shorter to type without tab complete when pointless is not here.
04:43:39 * due lazy.
04:43:41 <sorear> :p
04:44:02 * Twinge was wondering who you were talking about ;)
04:44:19 <dpeg> I got no replies on the Armour/Dodging training, so I guess I have to take it to the wiki :/
04:44:23 <by> I'm having a really weird gdb issue with _monster_add_energy; upstairs, in _handle_monster_move, monster == 0x7ef0d4, downstairs, in _monster_add_energy, it's 0x30cd28 which is invalid
04:44:39 <sorear> Confusingly, we have 2 davids
04:44:59 <Twinge> dpeg: Following IRC, the wiki, and Mantis is already too much for me; I don't really follow the newsletter :P
04:45:15 <dpeg> Twinge: it wasn't public.
04:45:22 <sorear> 0x7e40d4, oh, Windows
04:45:25 <due> dpeg: 978291 suggested that kraken unsummon tentacles when fleeing, I am currently trying to implement this :)
04:45:37 <dpeg> due: yes, it is  a good idea
04:45:38 <by> sorear: mac
04:45:50 <due> !killsby alligator
04:45:50 <Henzell> One game for * (ckiller=alligator): 1x polystyrus
04:45:54 <due> :D!!!!!!!!!!11
04:45:59 <due> !lg * killer=alligator
04:45:59 <Henzell> 1. polystyrus the Nimble (L14 SpTm), worshipper of Makhleb, mangled by an alligator on Swamp:1 on 2010-01-26, with 58428 points after 33568 turns and 2:59:04.
04:46:03 <due> !lg * killer=alligator x=dam
04:46:03 <Henzell> 1. [dam=21] polystyrus the Nimble (L14 SpTm), worshipper of Makhleb, mangled by an alligator on Swamp:1 on 2010-01-26, with 58428 points after 33568 turns and 2:59:04.
04:48:11 <cbus> dpeg, is orb of destruction worth the mana cost (compared to poison arrow)?
04:48:42 <due> cbus: yes, :)
04:48:50 <due> cbus: we nerfed poison arrow :D
04:49:32 <cbus> it seems to do more than orb of destruction
04:49:35 <cbus> tbh :)
04:52:54 <dpeg> IOOD is rather overpowered right now.
04:53:32 <by> speed_increment is crazy -- so many magic numbers
04:54:32 <due> Okay, so we can close the worm speed thing?
04:54:47 <by> what is the worm speed thing?
04:55:01 <due> TGW says we should give them action speed 10, move  speed 6 or so.
04:55:55 <by> can't say, would need to see if the change helps at all
04:56:15 <due> I think it's a needless buff for an otherwise already powerful early game threat.
04:58:20 <due> dpeg: I replied on the Donald page  re: contentious speech.
04:58:59 <Twinge> !killsby worm cv>=0.5
04:59:05 <Henzell> 2231 games for * (ckiller=worm cv>=0.5): 63x KiloByte, 45x crawlie, 45x Vesto, 38x TGW, 29x Tenaya, 28x oxeimon, 28x eben, 23x Chog, 23x DashNine, 22x Johan, 19x nmf, 18x Cryptic, 18x jejorda2, 17x mafalda, 17x nflftw, 16x ziropiro, 15x Manslay, 15x Leibowitz, 13x Kyrris, 13x Arival, 13x phyphor, 13x larasium, 13x Nikinyo, 13x Eifeltrampel, 12x Shane, 12x Stossel, 12x DEMON, 12x 9to, 11x stupidnub...
04:59:18 <Twinge> That is a lot of worm deaths
04:59:23 <dpeg> due: yes, I saw
04:59:38 <due> Twinge: Exactly.
04:59:42 <due> Twinge: I don't think they need a buff.
04:59:46 <due> !killsby worm
04:59:47 <Henzell> 5540 games for * (ckiller=worm): 89x crawlie, 86x KiloByte, 58x Vesto, 54x poop, 53x DashNine, 52x heteroy, 52x Chog, 50x Johan, 48x mr0t, 43x Archibald, 40x aori, 40x Nikinyo, 38x TGW, 37x Keolah, 36x silvan, 32x sorear, 31x Tenaya, 31x Anym, 30x chilliwack, 29x 78291, 28x Maurog, 28x ceb, 28x Shaijin, 28x oxeimon, 28x eben, 27x yap, 27x simul, 26x Lemuel, 26x Nexos, 25x Crackman, 24x aristotle, ...
04:59:48 <dpeg> due: I think the FR goes in the wrong direction. Worms etc. are boring because they are slow.
05:00:04 <due> dpeg: Sure, but making them fast won't fix them.
05:00:06 <dpeg> We need less (or better designed) slow monsters.
05:00:09 <dpeg> due: yes.
05:00:18 <dpeg> less = fewer
05:00:30 <due> Though I am goin gto make Gastronok simply slow with regards movement.
05:00:46 <due> speed 10, delay 14 for move or whatever
05:00:50 <Zaba> slow monsters are rather boring indeed
05:01:17 <Zaba> many of them are no threat if one repeats the right sequence of movement and attacking, even
05:01:24 <dpeg> Zaba: yes, if you do it properly, you run in circles and throw something. This is why I say that better design may also help.
05:01:58 <by> do monsters with BEH_SLEEP ever do anything?
05:02:05 <Twinge> due: I thought Gastro was pretty dang threatening already with haste/slow/airstrike even at full-on speed 5?
05:08:35 <sorear> by: they walk around if confused
05:09:39 <dpeg> sorear: like butterflies?
05:09:52 <sorear> yes
05:15:26 <CIA-78> 03by * rea724affe2f1 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Shortcut main AI loop for sleeping monsters.
05:15:52 <by> argh, another mis-push :(
05:16:17 <due> He doesn't have haste.
05:17:56 <CIA-78> 03by * raddc7850ac0f 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-act.cc: Revert "Shortcut main AI loop for sleeping monsters."
05:17:57 <CIA-78> 03by * re721eceb1dd6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-act.cc mon-behv.cc): Revert "Debug tracking of calls to _set_nearest_monster_foe."
05:19:21 <due> The flavour of Fedhas is just so good, though.
05:19:26 <due> The zmobies decaying into skeletons <3
05:21:37 <purge> due: that alligator kill was funny. He thought he was safe because he was a spriggan but the alligator kept pace with him lol
05:21:41 <dpeg> I am not sure anymore, who came up with the basic idea of the plant god?
05:21:52 <due> dpeg: I'm not sure who, but it's great.
05:22:05 <cbus> @?? alligator
05:22:05 <Gretell> alligator (12t) | Speed: 10 (act: 80%; swim: 60%) | HD: 12 | Health: 36-108 | AC/EV: 5/9 | Damage: 30, 15 | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(48) | XP: 1089 | Sp: swiftness.
05:22:12 <cbus> act?
05:22:15 <cbus> actual?
05:22:23 <due> "pick up its mycelia and move" :D
05:22:30 <due> cbus: action speed.
05:22:40 <due> cbus: So, it swims quickly, and it bites quickly, but it walks as fast as you.
05:22:48 <due> Also, it can cast swiftness, so it becomes  speed 12 or so.
05:23:11 <cbus> ehhr, alligators cast swiftness?
05:23:11 <cbus> wtf
05:23:20 <Eifel> lol
05:23:22 <due> They put on a short burst of speed.
05:23:31 <due> It doesn't last too long, and then they can't do it again because they're tired.
05:23:50 -!- Mu_ has quit ["Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place."]
05:24:01 <cbus> hmm !apt should show races peed
05:24:08 <due> peed?
05:24:10 <due> oh
05:24:11 <due> speed
05:24:21 <cbus> pee colour ;)
05:28:00 <due> Hooray for multiple hill giants
05:28:19 <dpeg> At least I finally figured out who invented the slime god.
05:28:24 <due> Oh, who?
05:28:38 <dpeg> Cyrus
05:33:37 <dpeg> ah, due, we may need to tweak our unique generation formula
05:33:41 <dpeg> the penalty for placing additional uniques may be too low
05:33:54 <due> bah
05:33:55 <due> Okay
05:34:41 <due> So, we should add an extra chance of failing if we've placed a unique?
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05:41:39 <sorear> Has anyone seen Cyrus since the hill dwarf era?
05:43:39 <due> Heycool, a yaktaur skeleton
05:44:24 <purge> @whereis due
05:44:24 <Gretell> No where information for due ().
05:44:33 <due> bookofjude :0
05:44:39 <purge> yeah i just realized
05:44:42 <purge> i have been up all night
05:44:43 <purge> :D
05:44:54 <purge> thinking is slower atm
05:46:14 <due> @whereis bookofjude
05:46:15 <Gretell> bookofjude the Thaumaturge (L11 SpVM), a worshipper of Fedhas, is currently on D:12 after 19290 turns.
05:46:18 <due> I killed it
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05:48:36 <Ashenzari> Guardian Spirit on Shield (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=583) by GidrA
05:51:01 <purge> ^ that is funny
05:53:27 <sorear> why
05:53:30 <sorear> just the bad english?
05:53:59 <sorear> it's not suprising to me, there are a few hard-coded slot checks
05:58:55 <purge> sorear: its unexpected from my POV
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06:12:55 <due> :|
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06:13:22 <due> Wb!
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06:17:35 <due> Ants nest again
06:17:46 <by> due: :)
06:18:14 * due quietly plots to get back at zaba for them
06:18:45 <Zaba_> I didn't do nuthin, as I think I've mentioned!
06:21:51 <syllogism> hmm, Enslavement power cap isn't shown properly
06:22:34 <syllogism> there's some step down so you actually need 100ish power to hit the true cap of 70, but the shown cap is 200 (or 150 actually)
06:24:03 <dpeg> sorear: yes, I've seen Cyrus once here.
06:24:33 <by> dogs should do better against invisible monsters
06:24:50 <dpeg> by: don't they sense invisible?
06:24:56 <dpeg> syllogism: would you file the bug?
06:25:03 <by> they do
06:25:23 <dpeg> not good enough?
06:25:39 <due> 0.7 target: redo invis.
06:25:42 <by> it doesn't seem to work; my dogs happily let the elves beat them up
06:25:49 <due> ah
06:25:55 <due> friendly sense/see invis is borked, no?
06:32:39 <by> apparently friendly see invis works fine, but sense invis doesn't
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06:33:24 <due> yeah
06:33:26 <due> sense is bork
06:33:49 <Ashenzari> The actual Enslavement power cap not displayed properly (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=584) by syllogism
06:41:53 <bhaak> dpeg: next poll, also ask for putty. 5% use putty, Telnet on Win, almost nobody :)
06:45:37 <bhaak> and nethack.alt.org is also used a lot as $OS_OR_DEVICE :-)
06:46:13 <due> I played CDO via hyperterminal on windows
06:46:26 <due> Was bored and on a machine with no other telnet client
06:46:28 <due> worked kinda okay
06:46:51 <bhaak> windows telnet doesn't work with crawl?
06:47:30 <due> it does
06:47:42 <due> windows telnet == hyperterminal?
06:48:32 <cbus> due, nah
06:48:38 <cbus> due, theres some telnet client for cmd.exe
06:48:42 <due> oh
06:48:45 <due> i didn't know that
06:48:52 <cbus> its trash :)
06:48:58 <cbus> but try it for the amusement if you like
06:48:58 <due> :)
06:49:05 <due> hyperterminal is amusing
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07:07:04 <CIA-78> 03by * rd39370e68d65 10/crawl-ref/source/ (actor.h monster.h player.h): const variants of actor::as_{monster,player}
07:07:07 <CIA-78> 03by * r6e62d3c888d6 10/crawl-ref/source/monster.cc: Allow monsters that sense invisible to see adjacent monsters.
07:07:09 <CIA-78> 03by * r00af2d7c5c9f 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Apply a similar "sense invisiblity" change to player visibility.
07:07:38 <due> Does the scree nnot update during rest again?
07:07:57 <by> due: if you could do a cdo update, that would greatly improve my SESu's chances in Elf :)
07:08:23 <by> due: hmm, don't know re update
07:08:30 <due> Heh
07:08:31 <due> Okay
07:08:37 <due> Let me commit these kraken changes
07:09:26 <by> I don't think there was a change to shortcut viewwindow when resting
07:09:35 <due> Well
07:09:42 <due> It's changed very recently
07:09:55 <due> Because resting with clouds on the screen, they don't go away until the resting finishes.
07:09:57 <by> however, it's possible that we're just not refreshing because the messages cause fewer refreshs
07:10:21 <by> does anything else change? health bar etc?
07:10:32 <due> Tides don't
07:10:40 <CIA-78> 03due * rd42dd6456b6f 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-behv.cc: Kraken unsummon tentacles when fleeing.
07:11:05 <by> what if you set travel_delay positive? (or is there a variant for resting?)
07:11:08 <due> HP bar goes up
07:11:17 <due> Ah, is it travel_delay?
07:11:21 <due> That's the only thing I've changed recently.
07:11:24 <by> don't know
07:11:49 <due> Yeah, looks like it is.
07:11:50 <due> Weird.
07:12:25 <due> Do I get awards for most verbose commit messages?
07:12:56 <due> by: updating
07:13:30 <by> due: mine are more verbose this round
07:13:57 <due> I usually find myself waffling.
07:14:48 <due> crap
07:15:34 <due> Why do I always do that?
07:15:43 <due> Must be the disparity between MSGCH_WARN and "warning" forr lua
07:15:47 <CIA-78> 03due * rbfdd4530e9e1 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-behv.cc: Fix compilation.
07:19:08 <due> Master branch on CDO updated to: 0.6.0-a1-2851-gbfdd453 (16.2)
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07:27:48 * due goes on a closing spree.
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07:31:03 <by> due: your last commit appears to have reverted the _set_nearest_monster_foe change
07:31:33 <due> Really?
07:31:38 <due> Huh.
07:31:50 <due> Oh, bah, I'm sorry.
07:31:54 <due> Rill fix.
07:32:52 <due> Had an  old copy of mon-behv.cc open
07:32:56 <due> Didn't notice :)
07:33:11 <CIA-78> 03due * re3e9abe064ec 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-behv.cc: Revert "Fix compilation."
07:33:12 <CIA-78> 03due * rde8564995746 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-behv.cc: Actually fix compilation.
07:33:37 <by> thanks for updating
07:37:32 <by> "Your warg bites it." :)
07:37:45 <due> :D
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07:41:24 <due> ...LOL
07:41:32 <due> "artefaces", oh well :)
07:42:06 <kilobyte> by: dealing with submerged stuff is incredibly grindy now.  Instead of killing them, you have to wait until they heal and surface, and _then_ you may have another chance of perhaps killing them -- or not.
07:42:29 <due> Yeah, submerging need sto go before 0.6 is released.
07:42:39 <due> We could just disable submerging entirely.
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07:45:50 <due> sleepytime :)
07:45:51 <due> night folk.
07:46:03 <kilobyte> due: bye!
07:47:40 <greensnark> "Your warg bites it." <3 <3 <3
07:49:57 <workimer> "Time to get a new warg"
07:50:28 <greensnark> Second-hand warg market isn't what it used to be
07:50:46 <workimer> for sale!  one warg, slightly used.  only bitten once
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08:01:57 <CIA-78> 03greensnark * r3e5fb3684b1e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/descript/monsters.txt mon-pick.cc): Make top-tier merfolk rarer in the Shoals.
08:02:07 <doy> aw
08:02:20 <syllogism> I barely saw any
08:02:29 <st_> all throughout or just 1-4?
08:03:22 <greensnark> 1-4
08:03:37 <greensnark> I plan to increase them a bit on Shoal:5 :P
08:03:54 <greensnark> I don't want to discourage players from diving into Shoals early :P
08:04:10 <greensnark> Although harpies+turtles do that pretty well :P
08:11:38 <greensnark> by: Thanks for fixing the slow-rest problem
08:13:13 <CIA-78> 03kilobyte * rb9210ede4374 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Unbreak spirit shield on shields.
08:14:07 <kilobyte> greater nagas got a HUGE deal easier, with the poison arrow nerf
08:14:16 <syllogism> oops
08:14:23 <doy> wait, we nerfed monster poison arrow?
08:14:29 <syllogism> by did
08:14:35 <doy> don't do that d:
08:14:44 <doy> was supposed to just be for player i thought
08:14:58 <CIA-78> 03greensnark * rb92d5aa013cc 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-shoals.cc: The tide should not submerge runes in deep water, fixed.
08:15:26 <greensnark> The resistibility is handled the same way for both player and monster
08:15:57 <doy> ah
08:16:29 <greensnark> Greater nagas really need strong poison arrow
08:16:45 <by> kilobyte: re submerged monsters, I was expecting follow up commits to not make monsters submerge so much; from the preceding discussion, I expected those to follow
08:17:39 <by> I'll just undo the PA nerf against player, ok?
08:18:16 <sorear> doy: uhhh.  Why is maintaining symmetry bad?
08:18:18 <greensnark> What about monster v monster
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08:18:51 <sorear> Shouldn't we at least *try* to avoid runaway code duplication?
08:18:55 <greensnark> I'd also like symmetry in this case, but I agree player PA does need a nerf
08:19:08 <greensnark> Maybe we could give it a much lower power cap?
08:19:10 <sorear> Monster PA isn't horribly overpowered, but it's strong enough to take a nerf
08:19:19 <greensnark> I disagree
08:19:26 <greensnark> I don't think monster PA needs a nerf at all
08:19:48 <by> there's no symmetry anyway, given the different poison resistance systems
08:19:50 <sorear> 'needs a nerf' and 'can take a nerf' are different concepts to me
08:19:57 <greensnark> I don't think it can take a nerf
08:20:11 <greensnark> Unless we nerf player PR to start with :P
08:20:20 <sorear> you think monster PA was always underpowered?
08:20:27 <greensnark> No
08:20:36 <greensnark> I don't think it needs to be weaker than it is
08:20:46 <sorear> 'can take a nerf' and not 'needs a buff' are the same concept to me
08:21:03 <greensnark> Take the hairsplitting elsewhere
08:21:22 <greensnark> I'm really not in the mood to get into semantics here
08:21:30 <greensnark> I don't think monster PA should be weakened
08:21:45 <greensnark> If it is, it needs compensation to keep the Snake Pit from diving in difficulty
08:22:37 <kilobyte> then increase the greater naga HD
08:22:53 <greensnark> That can be done, yes
08:22:56 <greensnark> @??greater naga
08:22:56 <Gretell> greater naga (04N) | Speed: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 15 | Health: 45-120 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Damage: 27 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 1576 | Sp: b.venom, mystic blast, haste, poison arrow, teleport other, teleport self.
08:22:57 <sorear> right now, elements are all equally resistable no matter who's wielding them
08:22:57 <kilobyte> making spells diverge when we want them consistent is a step in the wrong direction
08:23:12 <sorear> I think destroying that is a step in the-yeah
08:23:18 <greensnark> And possibly reduce greater naga xp multiplier
08:23:28 <syllogism> you could always nerf PA in some other manner
08:23:38 <greensnark> sorear: I'm not advocating destroying symmetry
08:23:49 <greensnark> So if you want to complain about something, find new material
08:24:29 <sorear> greensnark: Monster PA was weakened last night, you say it shouldn't have been
08:24:53 <greensnark> Have you actually read what I said?
08:25:05 <sorear> Most of it
08:25:19 <sorear> I came in 1/3 of the way in when I saw that my sacred cow was under fire
08:25:23 <greensnark> Ok, where have I said that I want resistibility to be different?
08:25:26 * sorear -> scrollback
08:25:27 <greensnark> For monster v player?
08:25:52 <greensnark> I did suggest a lower power cap for player poison arrow
08:26:23 <sorear> you didn't threaten symmetry, doy did
08:26:41 <by> what's wrong with giving greater naga and venom mages different spells?
08:27:00 <greensnark> We can just give them different spells, yes
08:27:04 <sorear> then we got into a semantic argument :p
08:27:30 <greensnark> We can up their HD, but it is already quite high
08:27:49 <greensnark> Or give them a different high-end poison spell
08:28:04 <greensnark> Maybe just give them a good bonus to the existing PA power
08:29:11 <greensnark> Or introduce three-level PR for players <3
08:29:23 <greensnark> First level giving ability to eat poisoned chunks :P
08:29:28 <syllogism> +1
08:29:37 <sorear> I don't like buffing their PA power significantly, because then PR-less snake runs become much less possible
08:29:45 <by> monster poison arrow has dice_def(3, 7+power/12)
08:30:01 <sorear> we don't want PA to be a *good* spell against omniresistant monsters
08:30:19 <sorear> we do want greater nagas to have a *good* spell against omniresistant players
08:30:27 <sorear> How about IOOD? :)
08:31:59 <greensnark> I like it
08:32:10 <greensnark> Take away their venom bolt
08:32:13 <greensnark> Give them IOOD
08:32:21 <syllogism> it always hits at close range though
08:32:22 <greensnark> Leave PA as it is
08:32:56 <greensnark> Yeah, they'll be pretty dangerous :P
08:35:41 <syllogism> I like how ice storm hits all the jellies the royal jelly spits out :P
08:35:49 <syllogism> on the same turn
08:35:57 <kilobyte> heh, IOOD, with Snake consisting mostly of corridors.  That would be vile!
08:36:09 <by> that sounds good; I don't think hacking resist_adjust_damage to get old PA damage against players would do any harm though -- it's asymmetric enough
08:36:57 <greensnark> Can IOOD do right angle turns in corridors :P
08:37:12 <kilobyte> can't
08:37:16 <greensnark> Nice
08:38:10 <doy> i was just concerned that we were nerfing monster poison arrow
08:38:17 <by> I need to get this summoner done so I can try out IOOD finally
08:38:18 <doy> because snake is already the easiest rune branch by far
08:38:20 <kilobyte> with greater naga resistances, you usually fight them in melee though, at least on hybrids
08:38:26 <by> doy: it's a good point that was missed at the time
08:38:35 <kilobyte> ??tetha
08:38:36 <Henzell> tetha[1/1]: tetha's suggested play order for earlyish levels: lair > orc > hive > swamp > snake1-4 > elf1-6 > vault1-7 > dungeon > blades > crypt > snake5 > elf 7 > vaults 8 (but look out for equipment requirements!)
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08:39:10 <sorear> doy: easier than swamp?
08:39:14 <doy> sorear: yes
08:39:18 <doy> assuming you have pr
08:39:22 <kilobyte> Snake:5 tends to be much more dangerous than even the new Swamp:5
08:39:27 <doy> and it's probably a tossup even then
08:39:34 <doy> yeah, swamp has been getting lots of buffs lately
08:39:37 <greensnark> Snake used to be a complete joke in b26
08:39:38 <kilobyte> although Lernaean hydra may change this
08:39:43 <doy> alligators, new swamp ends, etc
08:39:46 <greensnark> Before naga foo got poison arrow
08:40:38 <doy> the new swamp layout with trees also makes swamp a bit harder i think
08:40:45 <doy> since it's harder to find places to run to
08:40:48 <doy> while still being pretty open
08:40:53 <kilobyte> BTW, monster pathfinding is badly broken.  They don't even try going around trees if they see the route.
08:41:12 <syllogism> was the "out of range" message removed
08:41:13 <kilobyte> Weren't they supposed to use a smarter than greedy algorithm?
08:41:23 <syllogism> for spells
08:41:26 <doy> kilobyte: i think that's intended, for animal and lower intelligence
08:41:37 <doy> might need to be changed though
08:42:09 <sorear> IIRC in the original FR it was supposed to be zombies who got dumb pathing
08:42:12 <by> monster pathfinding needs some looking at
08:42:13 <sorear> i.e. I_PLANT
08:42:14 <kilobyte> care to look at my screen?  The drakes chilled there since I ran at 27hp.
08:42:34 <sorear> with yaks being able to pathfind
08:42:48 <by> especially when transparent things are involved, but I think monsters also really don't do well with walking through doors
08:42:55 <kilobyte> and this happened several times already even though it's only early Swamp:2
08:43:10 <doy> sorear: that would probably make more sense
08:43:41 <kilobyte> just guess what would happen if I had airstrike...
08:47:48 <by> this game may not be enough evidence, but book acquirement really needs looking at
08:47:55 <by> @whereis
08:47:55 <Gretell> No where information for by ().
08:47:57 <by> @whereis rob
08:47:57 <Gretell> rob the Convoker (L15 SESu) is currently on Elf:4 after 97051 turns.
08:48:42 <by> I found two scrolls of acquirement so far, wasted both on books with my clearly highest skill Summonings, and got a Book of Ice and a randart book of Enchantments
08:55:21 <CIA-78> 03dolorous * rae222e607d85 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Properly put the M_SPEAKS flag on all merfolk, for consistency.
08:56:27 <greensnark> Noooo
08:56:33 <greensnark> I hate jabbering non-uniques :/
08:56:45 <greensnark> Especially those thrice-damned orcs
08:56:48 <by> but, consistency
08:56:54 <sorear> Do merfolk have speech?
08:57:04 <greensnark> You just know they're going to get really corny speech now :P
08:57:22 <greensnark> Just look at what happened to orcs :P
08:57:30 <greensnark> I can't walk past an orc without it grunting at me like Orcs do :P
08:58:53 <syllogism> <3 orcs
08:59:26 * greensnark slaps syllogism with an orc.
08:59:51 <syllogism> at least friendly orcs
08:59:57 <sorear> message_color = mute: talk:.*
09:00:03 <sorear> I think that's the syntax
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09:00:44 <greensnark> Keskitalo: <3 <3
09:00:53 <greensnark> sorear: Yeah, but then I miss the unique dialogue, which I do like
09:01:01 <CIA-78> 03greensnark * r075a39c3db2c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (dat/des/branches/shoals.des dgn-shoals.cc test/shoal-hut.lua): Separate Shoal rune hut and decoy hut map again.
09:01:10 <greensnark> I should filter for orcs specifically, I guess
09:01:19 <greensnark> But I like complaining about it more than fixing it :P
09:01:26 <Keskitalo> Sniff, got dropped from the server again.
09:01:29 <by> just kill them fast
09:01:36 <greensnark> by: Yes!
09:02:00 <sorear> You could always use your super committer powers to increase the non-unique speech frequency modifer
09:02:22 <sorear> !lg glassbeat
09:02:23 <Henzell> 518. glassbeat the Bewitcher (L15 SpWz), worshipper of Sif Muna, killed by triggering a a Zot trap trap on Vault:1 on 2010-01-27, with 71607 points after 51645 turns and 4:27:25.
09:03:05 <greensnark> sorear: But that would deprive me of the pleasure of complaining about it! :P
09:03:09 * greensnark grunts like Orcs do.
09:03:18 <syllogism> I'm sure Donald hates all these posers too
09:03:25 <greensnark> <3 Donald
09:03:41 <greensnark> The bit where he quacks when confused is priceless.
09:04:13 <greensnark> Ok, ugh, back to work
09:19:07 <by> just saw my first 'i' fire elemental...
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09:43:42 <doy> two months and we're up to 122 open bug reports already
09:45:25 <Madtrixr> Wow.
09:45:52 <doy> 128 closed bug reports
09:45:52 <doy> (:
09:45:54 <[]J> healing while playing open-the-door close-the-door with a monster
09:45:59 <cbus> doy, 2^8
09:46:03 <cbus> I mean 2^7
09:48:07 <cbus> hmm, just a question
09:48:26 <cbus> when you blow stuff up with orb of destruction, the chunks get automaticly picked up  by autoexplore, should this really be the case? :D
09:49:25 <doy> if you have autopickup enabled for chunks, yes
09:49:26 <doy> (:
09:49:38 <Ashenzari> Standardise Airstrike's damage output (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=71) by bookofjude
09:50:16 <cbus> doy, its default
09:50:31 <doy> cbus: i'm aware
09:51:37 <cbus> btw, blowing shit up with orb of destruction is fun :D
09:51:50 <doy> it's true!
09:54:36 <CIA-78> 03Keskitalo * rd516b7ed9499 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tilereg.cc tilereg.h): Make drawing the player tile minibar into its own function.
09:54:40 <CIA-78> 03Keskitalo * r63855f59c0df 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: Document draw_minibars() with a comment.
09:54:41 <Cryp71c> <3 Snakes to Sticks implementation!
09:54:44 <CIA-78> 03Keskitalo * r512e552297c4 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: With default options, always show both minibars if either is not full.
09:54:45 <CIA-78> 03Keskitalo * rd9c9890bd79e 10/crawl-ref/source/player.h: Comment fix.
09:54:46 <CIA-78> 03Keskitalo * r205a58a0a816 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: Fix minibars staying on the center of the screen while being in the map view ('X').
09:54:51 <Cryp71c> Muwahahah! its finished.
09:56:04 <cbus> doy, next fix should be to show stuff like your normal Int/Str/Dex when its not being modified by items when picking stat to level up at level up
09:56:07 <cbus> :D
09:56:28 <doy> cbus: you know where the tracker is!
09:56:45 <cbus> already posted I think
09:57:36 <Timbermaw> You are starving! The corpse you are butchering rises to join your ranks! You stop butchering the corpse. There isn't anything here!
09:57:50 <Timbermaw> can something be done about servant behavior?
09:58:06 <doy> cbus: it's not on mantis, in any case
09:58:35 <cbus> sorry, not enough time to get a browser up
09:58:37 <cbus> gotta run now
10:02:40 <CIA-78> 03kilobyte * r557c6a8c950c 10/crawl-ref/source/it_use3.cc: Identify most misc items on use. Even for balls, the messages are unique.
10:02:41 <CIA-78> 03kilobyte * re2d098c9dd78 10/crawl-ref/source/ (7 files): Code readability: it's unobvious EQ_CLOAK..EQ_BODY_ARMOUR means "all armours",
10:02:50 <CIA-78> 03j-p-e-g * rcc547c5c821a 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files in 3 dirs): Experimentally overlay demon tiles with the corresponding numbers.
10:07:38 <Zaba_> were the mimic mechanics changed?
10:07:52 <CIA-78> 03j-p-e-g * rdfb8ff173721 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files in 3 dirs): Experimentally overlay demon tiles with the corresponding numbers.
10:08:29 <Keskitalo> Should Recall work on friendly plants? :>
10:08:39 <doy> Zaba_: how so?
10:09:07 <by> Zaba_: I believe kilobyte made them carry their weapon
10:11:48 <Cryp71c> They also have a chance to drop whatever they were? I don't think that was the case a while back.
10:12:19 <kilobyte> Zaba_: they used to save the RNG state and re-generate the item they mimic on every access.  That was an error-prone hack.  The new implementation was also haunted by several errors, but at least two of them were general bugs which should have been fixed anyways.
10:12:41 <kilobyte> Cryp71c: they should never drop anything.  Do they?
10:12:45 <Zaba_> I see
10:13:05 <Cryp71c> kilobyte, I've never seem them drop anything, but I thought someone mentioned (somewhere) that now they have a chance to drop what they were.
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10:14:50 <kilobyte> that would be silly
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10:17:25 <TGWi> too scummy
10:17:45 <MarvinPA> isn't that a xom effect?
10:17:53 <MarvinPA> or a proposed xom effect
10:19:04 <syllogism> You see here a golden rune of Zot.
10:19:04 <syllogism> notify_dgn_event: Lua error: /crawl-svn-b6740d2/dat/clua/lm_trig.lua:757:
10:19:04 <syllogism> attempt to index local 'it' (a userdata value)
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10:24:56 <by> wasn't that fixed? I remember a similar error in napkin's game when he picked up the orb
10:25:47 <TGWi> did mushroom AI change?
10:27:24 <CIA-78> 03j-p-e-g * reb6ac1c5f356 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: Minor spacing changes, fix typo.
10:27:25 <CIA-78> 03j-p-e-g * r2753d5c2fbf0 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-misc/stab_brand.png: Clean up stab brand tile's outline.
10:34:51 <Ashenzari> aquamancer shoots merfolk with shard of ice (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=585) by rob
10:38:39 <doy> down to 115 open bugs, people should close bugs when they fix them d:
10:44:50 <Cryp71c> doy, there are a couple of bugs I've opened with patches attached that havn't gotten any attention ;)
10:46:02 <MarvinPA> i guess the problem is that only devs or the person who opened the bug can close them
10:46:33 <MarvinPA> and it's good to leave stuff marked as resolved instead of closing it immediately, so someone can check it's definitely fixed before closing it!
10:47:35 <doy> MarvinPA: yeah, resolved, whatever
10:47:38 <doy> and i was talking about the devs in particular
10:47:44 <doy> since they're the ones who are doing the fixing
10:47:45 <doy> (:
10:47:48 <by> doy: you were counting unresolved bugs, right?
10:47:54 <MarvinPA> ahh heh, fair enough
10:47:54 <doy> by: yes
10:48:10 <dpeg> back
10:49:55 <Ashenzari> targetting info doesn't include terrain (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=586) by KiloByte
10:50:29 <MarvinPA> oh that reminds me, i don't think targetting info shows status effects either any more
10:50:38 <MarvinPA> i'll check in a sec
10:50:51 <doy> yeah, haran was a bit overzealous in removing messages i think
10:53:55 <MarvinPA> shall i make a seperate report, or just add it as a note to that one?
10:54:18 <doy> can just add a note
10:58:49 <CIA-78> 03j-p-e-g * r18c869e2b8a4 10/crawl-ref/source/ (4 files in 3 dirs): Add Porkchop's tiles for missile dispersal/exploding brands.
11:00:59 <dpeg> Submerging should be treated for 0.6. I made a proposal even! http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:monster:water_creatures_overhaul#new_proposal_for_submergers
11:01:29 <dpeg> kilobyte: not mentioning terrain is on purpose. Water or lava should be mentioned.
11:01:52 <kilobyte> it was about deep water, mostly
11:02:12 <dpeg> kilobyte: well, my proposal including mentioning water and lava.
11:02:29 <dpeg> On Poison Arrow: I agree that nerfing guardian nagas is bad, but I think nerfing the player spell is even more important. Can't we help Nagas in some other way?
11:02:53 <by> dpeg: the suggestion was to give greate naga IOOD
11:03:07 <doy> we should fix iood first though
11:03:39 <dpeg> by: sounds very good to me.
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11:03:45 <dpeg> doy: yes, I agree.
11:03:48 <dpeg> !seen due
11:03:48 <Henzell> I last saw due at Wed Jan 27 13:46:55 2010 UTC (3h 16m 53s ago) acting out due gone. on ##crawl.
11:04:18 <dpeg> I think the submergers fix is crucial for 0.6?
11:04:31 <doy> dpeg: you have wiki edit rights too!
11:04:56 <syllogism> passive mapping is kind of useful
11:05:04 <kilobyte> there's one bug, that it will hit corners of squares it passes through, instead of doing the diamond thingy.  This makes it not always follow the tracer to immobile targets.
11:05:25 <dpeg> doy: I was asking for consent!
11:05:27 <kilobyte> fixing that will have a side effect of making it less likely to hit moving targets
11:05:31 <doy> how much damage does iood do?
11:05:42 <TGWi> doy: all of it
11:05:44 <kilobyte> besides that, it's mostly a matter of fiddling with the numbers
11:05:48 <doy> i guess that depends on the implementation of the monster spell version
11:06:32 <dpeg> I think that means yes.
11:06:57 <syllogism> this statue does only 8d9 with it
11:06:58 <syllogism> @?? statue
11:06:58 <Gretell> statue (158) | Speed: 10 | HD: 8 | Health: 70 | AC/EV: 12/1 | Damage: 20 | Flags: 11non-living | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 561.
11:07:07 <syllogism> @?? greater naga
11:07:08 <Gretell> greater naga (04N) | Speed: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 15 | Health: 45-120 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Damage: 27 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 1576 | Sp: b.venom, mystic blast, haste, poison arrow, teleport other, teleport self.
11:07:47 <doy> if it's linear in hd, that might be a bit excessive
11:07:55 <syllogism> greater naga does 8d15
11:08:09 <syllogism> (&M foo spells:orb_of_destruction)
11:08:19 <TGWi> random movement speed is nuts
11:08:31 <sorear> is that in yet?
11:08:42 <TGWi> yes
11:08:50 <doy> hmmm?
11:09:10 <doy> oh hey
11:09:12 <doy> i missed that
11:09:13 <doy> awesome
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11:09:30 <TGWi> are you reading the commit?
11:09:43 <TGWi> because if that applies to anything but movement speed I'm going to shoot someone
11:11:27 <doy> pretty sure it applies to everything
11:11:35 <doy> it randomizes energy gain
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11:11:45 <TGWi> can we change that?
11:11:54 <doy> which is reduced by whatever amount is appropriate for the action
11:11:56 <TGWi> because that commit just doubled damage variance
11:12:08 <doy> and i think we should see how it actually plays out first
11:15:02 <Ashenzari> infinite loop with '`', ending in starvation (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=587) by KiloByte
11:15:30 <doy> repeated actions are so buggy
11:16:10 <Keskitalo> by: I really like the sense invisible commits, esp. regarding Canine Familiars.
11:16:28 <by> yes, seems to work quite well; I still died, though :(
11:16:36 <Keskitalo> Aw. :)
11:16:47 <dpeg> by: your change makes player Invis a bit more useful, right?
11:17:01 <dpeg> s/bit/quite/ ?
11:17:06 <Keskitalo> Imps have see invisible - that could be dropped. They have a crapload of stuff.
11:17:15 <Keskitalo> (IIRC)
11:17:31 <TGWi> can we drop imps instead
11:17:35 <doy> no
11:17:36 <dpeg> no
11:17:40 <TGWi> :P
11:17:47 <dpeg> TGWi: please don't troll
11:17:47 <by> TGWi: I don't think variance means what you think it means
11:18:28 <TGWi> by: 1. the state, quality, or fact of being variable, divergent, different, or anomalous.
11:18:57 <doy> TGWi: please be productive
11:18:57 <TGWi> the maximum damage in a turn just doubled, so, yeah
11:19:02 -!- TGWi was kicked from ##crawl-dev by dpeg [We're working!]
11:19:09 <dpeg> Too much?
11:19:16 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev
11:20:23 <doy> TGWi: freaking out about these things doesn't help... if you want to discuss them, please allow for some actual discussion d:
11:22:04 <greensnark> The energy change is also quite minor
11:22:08 <doy> yeah
11:23:11 <dpeg> by: still --more-- for levelling!
11:23:29 <doy> a normal speed monster would have something like a 0.1% chance of getting an extra move, if i understand it correctly (which might mean it's not enough to actually be useful for its intended purpose, we'll see)
11:23:35 <by> dpeg: you should ask TGW what he thinks of that :)
11:24:01 <dpeg> please
11:24:06 <by> doy: it just killed me the game before, indirectly
11:24:28 <dpeg> doy: what is the change in question?
11:24:42 <doy> dpeg: monster energy gain per turn is now +/- 1
11:24:59 <doy> energy being what determines the actions they're capable of doing
11:25:04 <doy> moving, attacking, etc
11:25:15 <dpeg> oh, nice
11:25:29 <dpeg> who came up with this?
11:25:33 <Mu_> does this finally make pillar dancing unsafe?
11:25:39 <doy> well, i've been endorsing it for like a year
11:25:42 <TGWi> mu_ no
11:25:46 <greensnark> by's idea
11:25:52 <doy> by finally went and coded it
11:25:56 <greensnark> And he has our enthusiastic support :)
11:26:08 <dpeg> by: yay!
11:26:20 <dpeg> Mu_: may be not enough
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11:26:28 <by> I stumbled upon that comment in _monster_add_energy that didn't quite seem to do enough
11:26:49 <doy> Mu_: it will affect pillar dancing, but probably not enough to make a difference
11:27:03 <Mu_> okay
11:27:20 <dpeg> Mu_: but! If the change works out nicely, we can expand on the idea :)
11:27:24 <TGWi> maybe if you're dancing with a hydra or giant or something
11:27:24 <doy> yes
11:27:45 <doy> i was initially proposing it as a solution to pillar dancing
11:34:34 <by> judging by my ogre fight just then, it seems to be working well
11:34:57 <syllogism> wait what does it do exactly
11:35:00 <doy> is this in the current cdo version?
11:35:01 <syllogism> monsters sometimes get double turns?
11:35:11 <doy> 11:24 <+doy> dpeg: monster energy gain per turn is now +/- 1
11:35:49 <syllogism> so when you are running away from an ogre it can sometimes attack you while you are retreating?
11:36:16 <doy> rarely, but yes
11:36:24 <Timbermaw> does it need to complete a full 10 with those 1s to do any difference?
11:36:26 <doy> also, you can rarely get an extra space between you
11:37:44 <kilobyte> well, that's a DAMN FREAKING GREAT IDEA!
11:37:55 <Timbermaw> would be interesting if it was cumulative; if the player did it a lot he'd get punished
11:38:26 <doy> Timbermaw: it is cumulative, not sure what you mean about getting punished
11:39:24 <Timbermaw> you mean those little +/- 1s need to get to a certain number to allow to monster to have an extra action?
11:39:30 <Timbermaw> the*
11:39:44 <doy> i believe so? i'm not incredibly familiar with the monster speed system
11:39:48 <doy> but that's how i understand it
11:40:06 <greensnark> The first +1 will allow the ogre an extra turn, but it will lose a turn right after
11:40:15 <doy> alright then
11:40:18 <kilobyte> too bad that random walk takes exponentially long time to show an effect
11:40:19 <greensnark> Monsters can act when their energy is >= 80
11:40:34 <CIA-78> 03Keskitalo * r232760e27162 10/crawl-ref/source/tilereg.cc: Add a FIXME comment.
11:41:00 <Timbermaw> oh
11:41:18 <greensnark> Is the change on cdo?
11:41:20 <Timbermaw> so it would have 81, move twice, and have -79?
11:41:22 <TGWi> yes
11:41:22 <kilobyte> greensnark: where the 0 point is doesn't matter.  Only gains/costs have any effect.
11:41:41 <greensnark> kilobyte: Right
11:41:41 <Keskitalo> @?? yak
11:41:41 <Gretell> yak (07Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Damage: 18 | Res: 06magic(28) | XP: 223.
11:42:05 <Keskitalo> I had yak packs fluctuating wildly already. (Well, at least one speed spurt was definitely visible.)
11:42:19 <greensnark> But the 0 point is likely to have a visible effect early with the current settings
11:42:37 <greensnark> I think monsters start with 70 energy on creation
11:42:40 <syllogism> potions of experience still don't fill your xp pool, shouldn't they?
11:42:43 <syllogism> at xl27
11:42:51 <greensnark> So a monster that wakes and moves will likely rapidly demonstrate a blip
11:42:54 <doy> at xl27 they probably should
11:43:27 <greensnark> syllogism: Go finish the game already you lousy farmer :P
11:43:48 <syllogism> I finished it already, got the orb milestone :P
11:43:55 <greensnark> !send syllogism 200 Daevas
11:43:55 <Henzell> Sending 200 Daevas to syllogism.
11:44:14 <syllogism> I've death's door, no problem :P
11:44:19 <syllogism> and it lasts 40+ turns with haste
11:44:19 <greensnark> :/
11:44:46 <greensnark> Maybe Haste should halve all positive durations when it kicks in :P
11:44:58 <syllogism> it certainly shouldn't double them :P
11:45:00 <syllogism> basically
11:45:10 <greensnark> And preferably slap the player with a trout when activated
11:45:10 <syllogism> not that I mind
11:45:38 <greensnark> Ancient liches need that dispel magic spell we talked about
11:45:55 <greensnark> Irresitible effect that strips the player of all buffs :P
11:45:58 <greensnark> And slaps them with a trout
11:46:17 <st_> and transfers them all to the lich!
11:46:58 <greensnark> I was going to suggest transferring them all to the trout
11:47:02 <greensnark> But your guess is as good as mine
11:47:10 <greensnark> Crawl needs trout
11:47:12 <greensnark> Or at least carp
11:47:25 <TGWi> are those big fish?
11:48:03 <Keskitalo> greensnark: Aren't giant goldfish carp?
11:48:16 <greensnark> Oh. Maybe.
11:48:39 <greensnark> Wikipedia says you're right
11:48:43 <greensnark> So Crawl has had carp all along!
11:48:50 <Keskitalo> I'm a DF player, so I know this carp stuff. :P
11:48:56 <dpeg> Keskitalo: are you referring to the odd fact that sleeping monsters can jumpstart at you?
11:48:58 <greensnark> :P
11:49:07 <doy> we should pick a better name for 'big fish' though
11:49:17 <dpeg> doy: submerger overhaul first
11:49:26 <doy> shrug, renamings are easy
11:49:26 <dpeg> after that, we may find that we need less fish
11:49:26 <doy> (:
11:49:27 <Keskitalo> dpeg: No, just the +1/-1 thing.
11:49:33 <Zaba_> "very big fish"?
11:49:34 <eith> sturgeons!
11:49:44 <TGWi> bigger fish
11:49:48 <greensnark> Sturgeons that perform sturgery on you
11:49:58 <Zaba_> There is always a bigger fish!
11:50:19 <TGWi> zaba_ just name them all "bigger fish" and give them random stats
11:50:20 <greensnark> Zaba_'s going to suggest adding Jar-Jar next
11:50:26 <Keskitalo> Check how cute it is: http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=big+fish
11:50:33 * greensnark readies his railgun for Zaba.
11:50:51 <Zaba_> greensnark, not a laser cannon?
11:50:51 <TGWi> oh god that's hideous
11:51:05 <greensnark> Looks like a fish with toothache
11:51:54 <TGWi> lol, shark tile
11:52:14 <kilobyte> we should steal the Dopefish image :p
11:52:24 <kilobyte> or at least the big fish from Super Mario Bros 3
11:52:35 <syllogism> currently spell targetting prompt doesn't say anywhere whether the square is out of range or not
11:53:09 <greensnark> It could show a trout symbol if out of range
11:53:20 <syllogism> what would that look like :P
11:53:22 <greensnark> But you should probably file a bug :P
11:53:31 <greensnark> Trout: <>-<
11:53:51 <dpeg> syllogism: it does say that
11:53:56 <syllogism> and it doesn't say anything when you target a square that's out of range
11:54:09 <syllogism> well look at my game
11:54:43 <dpeg> syllogism: you're right. Will come.
11:54:51 <dpeg> We urged Haran to merge, he wanted to wait :)
11:54:52 <Keskitalo> Testing & Feedback item for the new targetting would probably be good, the message window one is working nicely; you can link the separate reports to it with Relationships.
11:55:21 <doy> dpeg: haran merged the targeting stuff yesterday
11:55:27 <doy> but i think that was just for the prompt
11:55:33 <doy> it's quite nice though
11:56:22 <Keskitalo> Yeah, it looks good!
11:56:31 <syllogism> yes
11:56:53 <Keskitalo> I'll do the T&F item and link some reports to it.
11:57:25 <Keskitalo> Does Haran have a todo list?
11:57:29 <kilobyte> greensnark: Unicode has no fish symbol :(
11:58:22 <TGWi> unicode has everything
11:58:23 <dpeg> Keskitalo: Haran and I are in email contact.
11:58:32 <dpeg> an item would be useful, though
11:58:53 <Keskitalo> http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=588
11:59:09 <Keskitalo> This is the message window one: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=506
11:59:20 <Keskitalo> See the Relationships - that's a nice feature.
11:59:58 <Keskitalo> dpeg: Haran (assuming he has Mantis rights) could add his todo to the item, so people know what's useful to report.
12:00:14 <Ashenzari> The new targetting for 0.6 (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=588) by evktalo
12:00:25 <dpeg> EV: -6  <3
12:00:39 <greensnark> dpeg is a man of strange and morbid tastes.
12:01:00 <dpeg> "Hit me harder!"
12:01:27 <doy> were the bugs with negative values for those ever dealt with?
12:01:37 <dpeg> doy: are the negative values bad?
12:01:41 <doy> i remember for some of them, 0 was worse then negative or something
12:01:48 <doy> because of weirdness in the formula used
12:01:56 <doy> sorear pointed it out a couple times
12:02:00 <dpeg> doy: ah, don't know
12:05:16 <Ashenzari> Tracking the source of poison if it kills the player (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=22) by evktalo
12:06:49 <Keskitalo> Aww, touched an oldie.
12:07:04 <dpeg> I love it that usefulness of Fedhas always depends on how many fruits you found.
12:07:28 <Keskitalo> Fedhas is grrrrreat fun, especially in Lair with all the open space and fungi and plants.
12:07:39 <greensnark> Does abandoning Fedhas make carried fruits explode?
12:07:42 * greensnark hopeful!
12:08:02 -!- Zaba_ is now known as Zaba
12:08:04 <Keskitalo> greensnark: I hope I get Shoals instead of Snake in my game. :/
12:08:16 <greensnark> Keskitalo: I see you have a deathwish :P
12:09:35 <syllogism> it has been nerfed like a dozen times, I wouldn't worry
12:10:11 <syllogism> got the shoals zig level :P
12:10:38 <kilobyte> it should be a whole deal more wet
12:11:12 <greensnark> The ideal Shoals setup would lure in the player by making Shoal:1-2 seem like welcoming paradises
12:11:23 <Zaba> greensnark, sounds great
12:11:25 <greensnark> And then hit them hard and cut off their retreat on Shoal:5
12:11:40 <Zaba> but you'd need shafts to cut off retreat
12:11:44 <dpeg> kilobyte: how is Shoals not wet enough?
12:11:52 <syllogism> dpeg: zig
12:12:02 <greensnark> There's a Shoals level in Zig?
12:12:07 <syllogism> shoal monsters
12:12:18 <greensnark> Shoals monsters aren't very good vs high-level players :/
12:12:36 <syllogism> didn't see any aquamancers either
12:12:42 <Eronarn> greensnark: Octokrakens.
12:12:48 <kilobyte> syllogism: you killed two
12:12:49 <doy> the shoals zig level should totally be water-covered
12:12:52 <Eronarn> It is an octopus with krakens for tentacles.
12:13:18 <TGWi> eronarn: octopus king
12:14:00 <dpeg> Agree: all shallow water/deep water
12:14:36 <Eronarn> dpeg: no, boring. some ground is more fun
12:15:39 <dpeg> Eronarn: challenge is bigger with all water
12:15:44 <greensnark> Eronarn: Wait, what? I thought it was a kraken with octopodes for tentacles.
12:16:01 <dpeg> also: how is "all floor" not boring, but "mixture of deep and shallow water" is?
12:16:09 <greensnark> dpeg: I haven't suggested this before, because I was biding my time, but...
12:16:16 <greensnark> Isn't it time to add the Octopus King unique? :P
12:16:31 <Eronarn> greensnark: Well, it is eight krakens, of course. So they have to be the tentacles.
12:16:33 <greensnark> He could appear in deep zig
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12:16:49 <syllogism> what could it possibly do :P
12:17:11 <greensnark> I could make it pretty hard to kill with a strangling attack that immobilises the player :P
12:17:21 <greensnark> And he could summon kraken :P
12:17:25 <Eronarn> syllogism: 1000 HP, summons krakens that are like its tentacles!
12:17:25 <greensnark> And octpodes
12:17:33 <greensnark> And nautilus-es?-i?
12:17:43 <dpeg> greensnark: don't worry, we have developers who are obsessed with uniques :)
12:17:45 <greensnark> Crawl needs nautili!
12:17:54 <doy> yeah, why do we not have nautiluses
12:18:12 <Eronarn> greensnark: Crawl should have ammonites. And anomalacarids. And trilobytes.
12:18:28 <greensnark> I grok the first and third, but the second forces me to open Wikipedia :P
12:18:53 <doy> and cuttlefish!
12:18:57 <greensnark> Manta rays
12:19:15 <kilobyte> and trout!
12:19:23 <greensnark> Trout go without saying
12:19:27 <dpeg> Fedhasite: "Yay, food shop! ... Meh, only one banana."
12:19:50 <dpeg> greensnark: gotten confident from the turtle success story? :)
12:19:50 <Eronarn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Burgess_scale_Cor.png <-- this thing was a badass in its time
12:20:02 <Mu_> the new -more- thing is making my console scroll
12:20:21 <Anym> Or somebody should make an underwater roguelike with all those stuff.
12:20:22 <doy> Mu_: how big is your console?
12:20:45 <Mu_> 80 25
12:21:06 <Eronarn> a portal vault with ancient creatures would be cool
12:21:22 <Mu_> also if I'm wearing two rings and press P to swap one it only tells me one of the rings i'm currently wearing
12:21:36 <doy> Mu_: that second one's known
12:21:40 <Mu_> okay
12:21:42 <doy> it's just not scrolling far enough
12:22:01 <doy> the second ring shows up once it scrolls
12:22:12 <greensnark> dpeg: due forced me to add turtles :P
12:22:29 <greensnark> I'm extremely neutral on turtles
12:23:02 <greensnark> I mean, they obviously ROCK and KICK ASS, but I'm very very cool and dispassionate about them :P
12:23:07 <doy> hey, now that we've cleared off Q, we should use Q for cephalopods of various types
12:23:14 <doy> makes more sense than X for the kraken
12:23:32 <greensnark> X is for the hentai horde, I understand
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12:24:28 <Eronarn> Q for cephalopods, q for tentacles would be cool.
12:24:30 <doy> (and once we do that, we could add cuttlefish and nautili and ammonoids and the octopus king and...
12:24:33 <doy> (:
12:24:45 <doy> Eronarn: hey, that could work
12:24:52 <doy> maybe
12:24:59 <Eronarn> we should get tentacles off of w, anyways
12:25:06 <doy> yeah
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12:32:23 <Keskitalo> What of small 'x' for the tentacles? (frankly, I think the ';' for tentacles were the best so far)
12:33:06 <dpeg_> Keskitalo: ask around, if there are no objections, do it
12:33:50 <Keskitalo> dpeg_: Yeah, food shops for Fedhasites are a real boon. As are strawberry fields and fruit orchards. :]
12:34:39 <doy> small x would be better, but i'd prefer getting the kraken off x altogether
12:34:47 <dpeg_> Keskitalo: need to reduce fruit stacks a bit now
12:34:52 <Keskitalo> I'm really fine with any tho. :)
12:35:06 <greensnark> Strawberry fields forever
12:35:12 <Keskitalo> dpeg_: That wasn't done already? (I take you mean vaults, not normal generation)
12:35:32 <Keskitalo> I'm probably confusing it with not-Fedhas related toning down.
12:35:59 <dpeg_> I mean both
12:36:31 <doy> yeah, you can find stacks of like 16 grapes on the floor
12:37:17 <greensnark> Aha, now dpeg's anti-fruit agenda emerges :P
12:37:43 <greensnark> Can we add pineapples? :)
12:38:03 <doy> fruit that requires butchery
12:38:04 <doy> nice
12:38:09 <greensnark> :P
12:38:13 <greensnark> And is a good throwing weapon
12:38:19 <greensnark> As good as a sling bullet!
12:38:23 <syllogism> coconuts and monkeys?
12:38:29 <dpeg_> greensnark: last time I suggested reducing fruits, I felt so bad I wanted to quit! :()
12:38:35 <greensnark> It should get bonus damage vs weights when thrown by halflings
12:38:45 <greensnark> *vs wights
12:38:52 <Keskitalo> dpeg_: I'm still waiting for my fruit salad achievement to be implemented! (not really)
12:38:54 <greensnark> Damn typo-correcting fingers
12:39:04 -!- kilobyte_ is now known as kilobyte
12:39:09 <dpeg_> But then, I simply jumped on the plant god waggon. Now, I only have to remove pizzas when no one is looking.
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12:39:25 <doy> whatever happened to the guy that was working on achievments
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12:39:50 <greensnark> Was someone working on achievements?
12:40:05 <greensnark> I saw an FR, but i didn't know there was development effort on it
12:40:15 <doy> i thought someone got started on coding it
12:41:16 <Keskitalo> Mara stories on the SA thread are quite good.
12:41:23 <doy> (:
12:42:01 <doy> i vaguely want to keep track of the sa thread, but what i really mean is that i want to read the interesting bits of the sa thread
12:42:12 <dpeg> greensnark: yes, we had a guy, zooko, but the dropped. Actually, he dropped with an email, which is almost unheard of.
12:42:21 <dpeg> Especially in Crawl-dev circles :)
12:42:54 <dpeg> doy: yes, we need someone to collect the good bits on SA and put them into a readable form.
12:42:55 <Keskitalo> Props to zooko!
12:43:24 <doy> was zooko the one who came up with the original proposal?
12:43:28 <doy> or was that someone else
12:44:00 <dpeg> doy: yes, he was
12:44:10 <CIA-78> 03j-p-e-g * rc58a08ba3ecd 10/crawl-ref/source/ (25 files in 3 dirs): Add icons for armour brands.
12:44:14 <dpeg> a very nice guy, girl friend and studies made him drop out
12:44:36 <dpeg> But him, jpeg and me came up with a very elaborate design!
12:45:02 <doy> he's the one to blame for getting me hooked on kongregate then d:
12:45:11 <greensnark> That Mara post due linked sometime back was hilarious
12:45:15 <dpeg> doy: I managed to only get addicted to Amorphous+.
12:45:22 <greensnark> It contained snarky references to the undead Swamp end as well
12:46:42 <doy> dpeg: http://www.kongregate.com/accounts/doyster
12:47:15 <dpeg> doy: no way I am gona touch kongregate right now.
12:47:22 <doy> (:
12:52:18 <greensnark> dpeg: Have you seen this: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3155652&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=135#post371600144
12:54:16 <doy> what's mara's depth?
12:54:41 <greensnark> 18-25
12:54:56 <greensnark> That should allow Zot too, actually
12:55:04 <greensnark> He's one of the rare uniques that can scale with the player :P
12:55:40 <greensnark> !tell due Why not allow Mara in Zot as well!
12:55:40 <Henzell> greensnark: OK, I'll let due know.
12:56:08 <Mu_> he didn't seem all that threatening to me
12:56:10 <doy> mara is 18-25, but xtahua is 20-27?
12:56:10 <doy> d:
12:56:28 <greensnark> Well, Xtahua can do more direct damage, I think
12:56:28 <Mu_> guess it'll be worse if you get him in a big room
12:56:29 <doy> margery too
12:56:32 <greensnark> @??Xtahua
12:56:33 <Gretell> Xtahua (05D) | Speed: 10 | HD: 19 | Health: 133 | AC/EV: 15/7 | Damage: 35, 20, 17 | Flags: see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(177), 05fire++, 03poison | Vul: 12cold | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 5449.
12:56:37 <greensnark> @??Mara
12:56:37 <Gretell> Mara (04R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(213), 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 7532 | Sp: mislead, mara summon, b.lightning, player ghost, pain, teleport self.
12:56:49 <greensnark> Oh, Mara has bolt of lightning :)
12:56:53 <doy> xtahua is pretty trivial once you have fire res
12:57:16 <doy> same with margery
12:57:22 <syllogism> 3x bolt of lightning
12:57:42 <greensnark> !lg * ikiller=Mara s=ckaux
12:57:42 <Henzell> 5 games for * (ikiller=Mara): 3x bolt of lightning, 1x stone arrow, 1x blast of negative energy
12:58:03 <doy> frederick and boris are also 20-27, but they're more on the same difficulty level
12:58:05 * greensnark wants to meet Mara.
12:58:27 <doy> !lg * ikiller=mara s=killer
12:58:28 <Henzell> 5 games for * (ikiller=mara): 2x an illusion of Mara, 1x Mara, 1x N78291's illusion, 1x MUMMY's illusion
12:58:39 <greensnark> due should implement the illusion thing for monsters
12:58:44 <greensnark> So we can have fun fights on FightClub
12:58:48 <doy> (:
12:58:48 <dpeg> greensnark: this whole page is so funny, including the talk about GDR, the swamp and Mara <3
12:59:05 <doy> dpeg: now note that it is 136 pages long
12:59:06 <doy> (:
12:59:32 <dpeg> doy: I mean the page greensnark linked :)
12:59:42 <doy> dpeg: i know
12:59:42 <doy> (:
12:59:56 <greensnark> dpeg: Yeah, doy is saying "Think of all the good stuff buried in those other 136 pages" :)
13:00:09 <dpeg> pfff
13:00:30 <dpeg> "Spot the exploding dpeg!"
13:00:57 <greensnark> Hey, there's a guy who killed Boris, Frederick and Mara in one group with IOOD :P
13:01:14 <doy> yeah, iood is really pretty ridiculous at the moment
13:01:14 <doy> (:
13:01:16 <greensnark> Pity he neglected to mention how many casts he needed
13:01:30 <syllogism> 3
13:01:31 <syllogism> :P
13:01:39 <greensnark> What, really?
13:01:41 <syllogism> no
13:05:17 <doy> on another note, my current drcr is feeling the berserk nerf a pretty good amount
13:05:20 <doy> (:
13:06:28 <dpeg> doy: and berserk is useful nonetheless, eh?
13:06:35 <doy> definitely
13:06:52 <dpeg> I doubt that running around burdenend since D:3 is clever but I am too lazy to do something about it.
13:07:19 <doy> str: 6
13:07:20 <doy> d:
13:07:43 <doy> have you not been putting points into strength?
13:08:05 <dpeg> never!
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13:08:55 <dpeg> The new Fedhas ability order is .... harder :)
13:09:17 <doy> what do you think of the new targeting interface?
13:09:17 <doy> (:
13:09:26 <greensnark> Sunlight is not the first power any more, right?
13:09:45 <greensnark> Does it do the persistent glow thing now?
13:09:49 <doy> what does sunlight do, besides dry up water?
13:10:02 <greensnark> It can produce plants, I believe
13:10:24 <dpeg> doy: backlit on monsters
13:10:38 <doy> it should damage vampires
13:10:39 <doy> (:
13:10:46 <greensnark> Yes!
13:10:48 <greensnark> And shadows
13:10:57 <greensnark> It should instakill shadows :)
13:11:18 <doy> not like it needs to instakill them, considering their hp
13:11:21 <doy> @??shadow
13:11:21 <Gretell> shadow (06p) | Speed: 10 | HD: 3 | Health: 9-24 | AC/EV: 12/10 | Damage: 505(drain strength) | Flags: 07undead, evil, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(20), 12cold+++, 03poison | XP: 28.
13:11:56 <doy> hmmm, also
13:11:59 <greensnark> They're so weak that instakill doesn't make much difference either way, but it would be Cool!
13:12:00 <dpeg> doy: targeting for Fedhas?
13:12:10 <doy> has the death yak frequency been toned down in lair?
13:12:17 <doy> because i haven't seen many of them at all lately
13:12:20 <doy> dpeg: for spells
13:12:21 <dpeg> doy: isn't that the wrong direction?
13:12:30 <dpeg> doy: I invented the new targeting interface :P
13:12:39 <doy> dpeg: wrong direction?
13:12:51 <doy> and ah(:
13:13:31 <dpeg> l - a plain deck of cards                                    1000 gold
13:13:42 <greensnark> What a round number
13:13:48 <dpeg> doy: fewer death yaks? Who could possibly want that.
13:13:54 <doy> dpeg: i know!
13:14:11 <greensnark> Is this like one of those plain book covers that happens to contain richly illustrated editions of the Kama Sutra?
13:15:12 <dpeg> greensnark: I know about pornographic materials hidden in bible-lookalikes
13:15:15 <greensnark> 2.3 death yaks on average on Lair:8
13:15:34 <greensnark> With a maximum of 13 death yaks and sigma of 3.14
13:15:48 <greensnark> We have an approximation of pi in death yak distribution :P
13:15:49 <doy> greensnark: and since death yaks are pack monsters, that means that a good amount of the time, you get 0
13:15:55 <greensnark> doy: Yes
13:16:00 <doy> that should be fixed d:
13:16:34 <dpeg> doy: ah, that's the correct direction :)
13:17:10 <dpeg> speaking of lack of monsters, my Orc:1 is quite big and featured exactly five plain orcs. All cursing, I assume. About the lack of support.
13:18:40 <dpeg> but Orc:2 has a firedrake??
13:18:46 <doy> heh
13:19:38 <greensnark> Can I also make the ultra-rare Lair monsters more common
13:19:42 <greensnark> Like yellow wasps and redbacks
13:20:05 <greensnark> Yellow wasps appear in 1 in 10000 Lair:4/Lair:5s
13:20:14 <doy> heh
13:20:35 <dpeg> greensnark: there's a script that tells you these numbers?
13:20:44 <greensnark> dpeg: place-population.lua
13:20:55 <greensnark> ./crawl -script place-pop Lair:1 Lair:8 runs the numbers on the Lair
13:21:07 <greensnark> Takes a while though :P
13:21:24 <greensnark> The 1 in 10000 is obviously wildly inaccurate, but they're not common :P
13:21:46 <doy> yeah, anything at rarity of like 15 or below you basically never see
13:21:47 <dpeg> greensnark: does this fall under "unit tests"?
13:21:54 <greensnark> dpeg: No, under scripts/
13:21:55 <dpeg> doy: this is not necessarily bad
13:22:09 <dpeg> greensnark: well, but we can use it for testing purposes
13:22:19 <dpeg> for example, what is the change for an orc warlord on Orc:1?
13:22:22 <greensnark> dpeg: Yes, but it's not an automated testcase
13:22:26 <doy> dpeg: that's not what unit testing means though
13:22:27 <doy> (:
13:23:13 <greensnark> No orc warlords on Orc:1 in 150 tests
13:23:59 <greensnark> 0.12 orc knights per Orc:1 though
13:24:09 <greensnark> Sigma 0.34 :)
13:24:30 <dpeg> greensnark: ah, I see. A unit test can be run when you sleep. But that could be done as soon as you have a script, no? So it'S a first step.
13:24:43 <dpeg> by the way, is Sticky Flame being nerfed to range 1 yet?
13:24:54 <greensnark> dpeg: No, a unit test knows what result is correct, so it can automatically flag failure cases
13:25:01 <greensnark> Whereas this script makes no judgement on correctness
13:25:01 <doy> "unit test" means something that tests a very specific part of the code, and says either "yes, this works" or "no, this is broken"
13:25:24 <greensnark> Yes, the tests we have in test/ are not unit tests
13:25:56 <dpeg> ah, okay
13:26:08 <dpeg> thanks for explaining
13:26:20 <greensnark> Looks like 0.01% of Orc:1 levels have warlords
13:26:24 <greensnark> But that may be because of vaults
13:26:41 <Keskitalo> dpeg: I really like the new Fedhas ability order!
13:26:41 <dpeg> for example, a monster generation unit test should know that anything with <5% oklobs is broken.
13:26:49 <greensnark> dpeg: :P
13:26:57 <Keskitalo> It is a bit harder. But it's fun to use evolution on toadstools early.
13:27:04 <doy> heh
13:27:10 <Keskitalo> I like the adjacent-evolution btw, makes you need to position yourself more.
13:27:27 <MarvinPA> didn't adjacent evolution just change?
13:27:39 <MarvinPA> in a recent commit, i think
13:28:48 <MarvinPA> i did quite like it being adjacent, was nice to be able to turn a bunch of corpses into fun
13:28:51 <Keskitalo> Yes, I'm referring to that. Charles made it to single target in LOS I think, experimentally.
13:28:53 <MarvinPA> fungi*
13:28:58 <MarvinPA> then evolve a group
13:29:00 <Keskitalo> Into fun indeed. :)
13:29:04 <MarvinPA> heh
13:30:21 <dpeg> Keskitalo: Charles changed Evolution to targeting, if I understand correctly.
13:30:34 <dpeg> Keskitalo: and I did reply on that on the list :)
13:31:39 <doy> hmmm, lair changes make it more interesting for fedhas, don't they
13:32:49 <dpeg> yes
13:32:59 <dpeg> more open space, better for the oklob artillery
13:33:06 <doy> (:
13:33:09 <dpeg> there should be a unique who follows Fedhas
13:33:23 <doy> summon oklobs!
13:34:07 <dpeg> doy: and the many plants help too, of course
13:34:33 <doy> yeah, that's what i was talking about
13:35:36 <doy> can friendly oklobs shoot through other friendly plants?
13:35:48 <dpeg> I am just using one, let me try to see.
13:36:12 <dpeg> yes
13:36:17 <doy> nice
13:39:24 <doy> also, we have 8 open tickets tagged with has_patch
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13:58:09 <syllogism> uh this is an interesting "bailey"
13:58:12 <syllogism> look at my game
13:58:29 <Mu_> haha
13:58:30 <doy> ...heh
13:58:39 <doy> that's a lot of staircases
13:58:53 <greensnark> I guess he exhausted all available Bailey maps and they're not allow_dup
13:59:19 <syllogism> aww
13:59:36 <syllogism> so will downstairs take me out or what
13:59:46 <doy> greensnark: why would it generate twice as many staircases as normal though?
13:59:58 <dpeg> syllogism: wait
14:00:09 <dpeg> syllogism: where?
14:00:15 <syllogism> dpeg: cdo/syllogism?
14:00:27 <dpeg> ah, I see
14:00:38 <dpeg> syllogism: you're a Nemelex abuser, I presume =)
14:01:04 <doy> syllogism is currently trying to break nemelex as hard as possible i think
14:01:12 <doy> doing a pretty good job at it too
14:01:12 <doy> (:
14:02:14 <dpeg> syllogism: that's awesome, but it'd be even cooler if you presented a todo afterwards!
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14:05:28 <syllogism> there aren't really any significant problems besides possibly the slow piety decay. Later on you can pretty much manipulate it to always give you the kinds of decks you want but I'm not sure if that's an issue
14:05:54 <syllogism> late as in even as a 3 runer
14:08:23 <dpeg> The most basic question is: Can Nemelex be used to godo effect without scumming?
14:08:44 <syllogism> sure, though making the torment card slightly rare would help there
14:08:56 <syllogism> right now decks of destruction are a bit too risky to be used in any real combat in my opinion
14:09:09 <doy> i thought we already did that
14:09:09 <syllogism> and you can't really afford to triple draw them
14:09:23 <syllogism> torment cards are still 5 5 5
14:09:31 <doy> hmmm
14:09:35 <syllogism> maybe you are thinking mass drain
14:09:49 <syllogism> looks like it isn't rare either
14:11:34 <dpeg> syllogism: not here, please :) Mail or wiki.
14:12:00 <dpeg> If you want, I create a Nemelex feedback page for you.
14:12:48 <syllogism> isn't the channel logged for this purpose :P
14:13:09 <doy> not for this purpose d:
14:13:26 <doy> finding specific information from here takes a bit of effort
14:13:44 <doy> logs are just to make it possible at all
14:15:26 <Keskitalo> dpeg: I'll reply as well.
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14:20:22 <greensnark> @??merfolk
14:20:22 <Gretell> merfolk (02m) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 9 | Health: 18-54 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 18 | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(36) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 188.
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14:23:45 <CIA-78> 03haranp * r9aac196e3617 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Give a direction title prompt when zapping wands.
14:23:47 <CIA-78> 03haranp * rbeb3dfd0acce 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Really minor cleanups.
14:23:52 <CIA-78> 03haranp * rc398a2df1903 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-data.h: Remove no-longer-helpful lines for some spells (generally clouds.) Only
14:23:56 <CIA-78> 03haranp * rc4ee32123b1b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (decks.cc spells1.cc): Change Healing and deck-card direction prompts slightly.
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14:25:01 <dpeg____> sorry, angband.pl seems a bit shaky today
14:25:03 <doy> 5 dpegs!
14:25:11 <dpeg____> need more dpegs
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14:25:28 <Keskitalo> Is that the Mirror Image spell? ^___^
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14:27:09 <greensnark> Mara <3 dpeg
14:28:31 <dpeg____> my wife's name is Maria :)
14:29:43 <doy> (:
14:30:50 <dpeg____> Folks, I am writing to Haran about targeting. And ideas what could be improved?
14:30:54 <dpeg____> *Any
14:31:29 <doy> dpeg____: the information given about tiles when looking around
14:31:34 <doy> he reduced that too much
14:31:44 <doy> the intent was good, but it's missing important information now
14:31:45 <Keskitalo> Is there a list what status effects (poison, etc) should be visible when looking at/targetting monsters?
14:31:56 <doy> Keskitalo: anything that's not an inherent property of the monster
14:32:12 <doy> so poisoned yes, see invisible no
14:32:13 <doy> etc
14:32:48 <Keskitalo> Yeah, that's correct. Right now I'm poisoning critters with targetted stuff and wondering if I got them already; I suppose it's the same with any effect I'd be inflicting on them.
14:33:00 <doy> yes
14:33:12 <dpeg____> doy: currently, I have this:
14:33:18 <dpeg____> * no Aim line for target out of sight
14:33:18 <dpeg____> * relevant terrain not mentioned (water, lava)
14:33:18 <dpeg____> * monster enchantments (confused etc.) not mentioned
14:33:21 <doy> there's that issue, and there's also the issue of monster descriptions not being shown for the default target
14:33:40 <doy> until you actually move the cursor, no descriptions are shown
14:33:42 <doy> and that's annoying
14:34:08 <dpeg____> doy: could you sum up that in a single line? (I can't.)
14:34:31 <doy> 'monster descriptions should be shown for the default target, without moving the cursor'
14:34:47 <dpeg____> the reduced monster description, I guess?
14:35:01 <dpeg____> orcish wizard, half-dead, confused etc.
14:35:02 <doy> whatever monster description is normally shown
14:35:02 <greensnark> This is why default_target=no is so awesome :)
14:35:13 <doy> greensnark: why is that?
14:35:27 <greensnark> So that even when the targeting interface spams monster details, I'm not affected :)
14:35:47 <greensnark> The hunter targeting massacre sometime back? Didn't affect me <3
14:35:56 <dpeg____> doy: we don't want to show stuff like "it is mindless" or "it can see invisible" in the targeting prompt anymore
14:36:16 <dpeg____> greensnark: you're really old :P
14:36:21 <doy> dpeg____: yes, that's covered by "anything that's an inherent property of the monster shouldn't be shown"
14:36:24 <Keskitalo> dpeg____: Agreed
14:36:25 <greensnark> Younger than you, old man :P
14:36:31 <Keskitalo> dpeg____: Yeah, I think doy hit the nail in the head
14:36:32 <doy> but i think that's done already?
14:36:37 <dpeg____> greensnark: but I am going with the times!
14:36:38 <doy> maybe not
14:36:51 <dpeg____> doy: yes, at least that was our intent from the start
14:37:22 <dpeg____> Haran had to do a lot of work to get trunk state.
14:37:32 <dpeg____> Did you note the name of spell etc. is now displayed?
14:37:35 <doy> yeah
14:37:37 <doy> i like that a lot
14:37:54 <greensnark> Yeah, displaying the name of the spell/ammo is very useful
14:38:11 <greensnark> I kept forgetting and firing arrows of dispersal at rats :P
14:38:17 <dpeg____> wow
14:38:22 <dpeg____> dispersed rats
14:38:26 <doy> (:
14:38:27 <doy> hmmm
14:38:42 <doy> something that would be useful would be for the dumplog to also list monsters killed by place
14:38:45 <doy> or by branch
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14:39:07 <CIA-78> 03greensnark * r3051ff277d27 10/crawl-ref/source/ (l_mons.cc scripts/place-population.lua): place-population: also report combined monster stats for all levels to give convenient branch summaries.
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14:39:29 <dpeg____> okay, mail sent
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14:40:28 <greensnark> dpeg is totally into rakshasa behaviour
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14:44:37 <Keskitalo> "was cursed" items seem to display in red in inventory after uncursing.
14:45:56 <doy> 2 hydras, 7 spiny frogs, 6 blink frogs, 2 griffons, 1 elephant slug, 1 komodo dragon, 2 fire drakes, 4 orange rats, 4 black snakes, 2 polar bear, 3 black bears, 1 grizzly bear <--- the only vaguely dangerous things i got in lair
14:46:06 <doy> i seem to recall komodo dragons being a lot more common too
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14:51:07 * greensnark mews.
14:51:19 <greensnark> Shoals gives 20k more xp than Snake on average :P
14:51:37 <greensnark> The major culprits being vanilla merfolk and harpies :P
14:51:52 <doy> @??merfolk
14:51:52 <Gretell> merfolk (02m) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 9 | Health: 18-54 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 18 | Flags: amphibious | Res: 06magic(36) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 188.
14:52:02 <doy> how much more than swamp?
14:52:25 <greensnark> 2x Swamp last I looked, but I'll run the comprehensive test
14:52:38 <doy> @??harpy
14:52:38 <Gretell> harpy (03H) | Speed: 25 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 19, 14 | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(28), 03poison | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 818.
14:52:42 <doy> oh wow
14:52:49 <doy> that does seem a bit excessive
14:52:49 <greensnark> Snake: http://sprunge.us/fZFR
14:52:59 <greensnark> Shoals: http://sprunge.us/HbiT
14:54:46 <greensnark> I think just dropping monster numbers in Shoals will help bring it in line
14:55:11 <doy> i'd rather make snake harder
14:55:33 <doy> it's pretty easy right now
14:55:34 <TGWi> snake is so much popcorn
14:55:37 <doy> yeah
14:55:40 <TGWi> definitely make it harder, not shoals easier
14:55:45 <Keskitalo> 0.7!
14:55:52 <doy> i suppose
14:55:59 <greensnark> Well, giving greater nagas IOOD will make it harder :)
14:56:01 <Keskitalo> But I really, really agree. :)
14:56:14 <Keskitalo> Snake:1-4 is snoozefest, Snake:5 is nice.
14:56:51 <Keskitalo> Stupid naga keep wasting turns spitting poison at resistant players. And who enters without?
14:57:30 <TGWi> 1-4 doesn't really have greater nagas
14:57:49 <doy> naga warriors need to be buffed somehow, i think
14:58:09 <doy> naga mages are decently dangerous, but they die too quickly
14:58:19 <dpeg____> Keskitalo: this is because anything with "cursed" in it gets the red colour.
14:58:29 <greensnark> Heh, the stats are stuffed with mimics :P
14:58:32 <dpeg____> doy: beware of xp inflation!
14:58:44 <doy> dpeg____: yeah, i know
14:58:53 <doy> maybe we just need an across the board xp scaledown
14:58:54 <doy> (:
14:59:22 <greensnark> You will be visited by scores of axe maniacs just for suggesting that :P
14:59:43 <greensnark> You can do many things in Crawl, but touching xp arouses the worst in everyone :P
14:59:51 <doy> greensnark: i've played a couple summoners and a couple hoprs, and didn't really have any problems
14:59:58 <greensnark> doy: I know
15:00:00 <doy> so i don't really know what people get so upset about
15:00:15 <doy> hmmm
15:00:19 <greensnark> The amount of frettting players do just to wield a weapon of draining is hilarious
15:00:26 <doy> once we make those changes to the xp pool
15:00:31 <doy> that we're planning on for 0.7
15:00:37 <doy> we should hide xp as a number entirely
15:00:45 <greensnark> Hey, Swamp totals jive nicely with Snake now
15:00:51 <greensnark> Swamp: http://sprunge.us/HLSP
15:01:10 <doy> dpeg____: thoughts?
15:01:37 <TGWi> swamp worms are 20% of the experience?
15:01:38 <TGWi> :|
15:01:52 <doy> greensnark: well
15:01:53 <TGWi> or of the monsters?
15:01:57 <doy> that's not entirely fair
15:02:04 <doy> since nobody kills every swamp work
15:02:05 <doy> worm
15:02:06 <doy> (:
15:02:10 <greensnark> Actually the % is just the % of monster population, not exp
15:02:29 <greensnark> But they are worth 20%, yes :P
15:02:34 <doy> swamp worms are still 15.4% of the exp
15:02:50 <TGWi> :[
15:02:50 <greensnark> Oh yes, 15%, wrong numbers :P
15:03:08 <doy> now that they lost their double damage against flounderers, their xp should be bumped back down
15:03:11 <doy> Twinge-: ^^
15:04:20 <doy> @??swamp worm
15:04:20 <Gretell> swamp worm (07w) | Speed: 12 | HD: 5 | Health: 25-50 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 20 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 168.
15:04:23 <doy> @?swamp worm
15:04:24 <Gretell> swamp worm (07w) | Speed: 12 | HD: 5 | Health: 25-50 | AC/EV: 3/12 | Damage: 20 | Res: 06magic(20) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 144.
15:05:05 <doy> also, harpy xp seems pretty excessive
15:05:11 <dpeg____> greensnark: I need Shoals number to compare. 55k xp sounds good.
15:05:12 <TGWi> I have no idea what you could do with naga
15:05:14 <TGWi> @??harpy
15:05:14 <Gretell> harpy (03H) | Speed: 25 | HD: 7 | Health: 21-56 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 19, 14 | Flags: fly | Res: 06magic(28), 03poison | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 818.
15:05:23 <doy> dpeg____: http://sprunge.us/HbiT
15:05:26 <TGWi> are they batty HP?
15:05:46 <TGWi> erm, AI
15:05:50 <TGWi> do they fight like bats?
15:05:50 <doy> TGWi: yes
15:05:58 <dpeg____> harpy xp is insane
15:06:02 <TGWi> yeah, that is nuts
15:06:07 <dpeg____> doy: what should I comment on? (You asked.)
15:06:22 <doy> 15:00 <+doy> once we make those changes to the xp pool
15:06:22 <doy> 15:00 <+doy> that we're planning on for 0.7
15:06:22 <doy> 15:00 <+doy> we should hide xp as a number entirely
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15:07:13 <TGWi> doy: hiding the whole display? or making it less explicit?
15:07:31 <TGWi> indication of an empty pool is very useful
15:07:38 <TGWi> what are these changes?
15:07:39 <Giomancer> Seriously
15:07:57 <doy> TGWi: hiding everything
15:08:04 <doy> TGWi: the pool mechanism is going to be completely changed
15:08:06 <Giomancer> For example, why disarm traps I don't have to if I have no XP?
15:08:07 <doy> so that wouldn't be an issue
15:08:34 <TGWi> how would you change it?
15:08:49 <doy> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:experimental_skill_pool_changes
15:08:54 <doy> the idea under Siber here
15:09:03 <dpeg____> doy: fully supported
15:09:38 <dpeg____> doy: showing the mystic xp pool number is pretty bad design :)
15:09:46 <doy> i agree!
15:10:30 <TGWi> I approve
15:11:22 <TGWi> I'm worried about how noncombat skills would handle that though
15:11:27 <greensnark> Can we have a trout symbol in the exp pool
15:11:41 <TGWi> T&D, particularly
15:12:08 <doy> TGWi: well, if you untrap things, it'll make it more likely that the next xp you get will go into t&d
15:12:37 <doy> or if you detect traps, etc
15:12:43 <dpeg____> yes
15:12:56 <dpeg____> Just found annihilations on the ground in Lair. Does feel a bit odd.
15:13:09 <TGWi> dpeg____: you can find GDA on D:1
15:13:57 <TGWi> doy: sure, but the most substantial sources of exp happen to come immediately after substantial combat skill exercise
15:14:25 <doy> TGWi: well, with my addition to the proposal, that would be less of an issue
15:14:34 <Keskitalo> Cause Fear doesn't need to tell that plants and fungi are unaffected, what do you think? :)
15:14:44 <doy> Keskitalo: agreed
15:15:11 <dpeg____> Keskitalo: make a note!
15:15:19 <doy> (or just fix it!)
15:15:20 <doy> (:
15:15:21 <dpeg____> perhaps one can generalise that
15:15:36 <doy> any immobile 0-exp monsters
15:15:54 <doy> immobile/magic immune
15:16:20 <TGWi> magic immune should not suppress the message
15:16:23 <TGWi> immobile is very good
15:16:32 <doy> TGWi: immobile/magic immune 0-exp
15:16:44 <TGWi> oh ok
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15:18:16 <doy> and i agree about armour training changes needing to go in, it's kinda annoying now to be getting 'your armour makes you unable to attack' messages in a robe, and not being able to do anything about it
15:18:20 <doy> (:
15:18:36 <TGWi> robes prevent from attacking?
15:18:39 <TGWi> I'd argue that's pretty bad
15:18:44 <doy> TGWi: all armour does now
15:18:46 <doy> with the new changes
15:18:53 <doy> since there is no more heavy/light distinction
15:19:06 <doy> but there's still a distinction in how training works
15:19:11 <doy> which needs to be fixed
15:19:58 <greensnark> The message also needs to be fixed, it conflates armour and shield penalties
15:20:03 <doy> oh really
15:20:09 <doy> maybe that's the issue then
15:20:15 <greensnark> Yeah, I got lazy at 3 am :)
15:20:21 <doy> i didn't think i'd be getting as much trouble from an elven robe as i am
15:20:22 <doy> (:
15:21:47 <CIA-78> 03haranp * r6dcca1f3722e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files): Add a direction_chooser_args struct which wraps the gazillion options
15:22:12 <greensnark> Only a gazillion, eh
15:22:17 <greensnark> I thought it was closer to a googol
15:22:44 <doy> !tell due sometime soon you should make a summary playtesting post with these issues http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:testing_and_polish_needed_for_0.6_release#feedback_requested
15:22:44 <Henzell> doy: OK, I'll let due know.
15:27:01 <dpeg____> doy: that might sound a bit pushing
15:28:15 <doy> !tell due just an idea, not intending to sound pushing!
15:28:15 <Henzell> doy: OK, I'll let due know.
15:28:16 <doy> (:
15:28:35 <dpeg____> :)
15:29:56 <Keskitalo> I think I have a fix for the cause fear & plants/fungi. Compiling & testing.
15:30:13 <bhaak> okay, dpeg has three iron chains, but where is the iron ball?
15:31:10 <Keskitalo> I think I need to go to sleep before this compile finishes. :D
15:31:15 <Keskitalo> Cheers!
15:31:16 * greensnark hands Keskitalo a trout-shaped cookie.
15:32:09 <syllogism> these bailey downstairs take me to another bailey level
15:32:11 <syllogism> too bad they dont have anything
15:32:14 <doy> nice
15:32:32 <syllogism> oops, an escape hatch took me out
15:32:44 <doy> that is quite the level
15:34:09 <greensnark> syllogism: Go finish the game already :P
15:34:32 <dpeg____> Folks, if you can be bothered, please comment on the Armour training idea. http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:armour_training
15:36:09 <Ashenzari> Items with {was cursed} inscription show up in red in inventory. (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=589) by evktalo
15:36:23 <dpeg____> Keskitalo: that is easy to fix
15:36:28 <doy> "the constructs glare at each other"?
15:36:50 <greensnark> doy: One of them is friendly and the other hostile
15:36:56 <greensnark> A bake off :P
15:36:58 <doy> heh
15:37:58 <syllogism> finally took the amulet of faith off, been wearing it since like d6 :P
15:38:12 <doy> aw
15:38:37 <dpeg____> currently, there is
15:38:38 <dpeg____> menu = red: cursed
15:39:01 <dpeg____> menu = red: {cursed should do the trick?
15:39:06 <doy> no
15:39:14 <dpeg____> \{cursed ?
15:39:20 <dpeg____> fucking regexes :)
15:39:24 <doy> that won't get regular cursed items
15:39:34 <doy> as far as i know
15:39:47 <doy> menu = red: (a|the) cursed
15:39:51 <doy> is probably what you want
15:40:16 <doy> menu = red: (an?|the) cursed
15:40:24 <dpeg____> thanks
15:40:25 <doy> actually, no, that's unnecessary
15:40:30 <doy> the first one is best
15:42:12 <doy> also, is there an fr for menucoloring ^F results?
15:42:25 <dpeg____> no, but should
15:42:26 <CIA-78> 03dpeg * ra2f2d6413a47 10/crawl-ref/settings/menu_colours.txt: Fix {was cursed} lines being coloured red.
15:42:39 <Keskitalo> Thanks! :)
15:42:39 <dpeg____> okay, gotta run
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15:44:32 <doy> "Is there any way to edit the doll, instead of just picking out of a few choices? I used to like the fact that I could have a few things go by equipment (chest, gloves, boots, etc) but I'd really like to put pants on my guy."
15:44:36 <doy> heh
15:44:47 <greensnark> What a pervert!
15:45:13 <Keskitalo> Quiver cycling! That's missing from the new firing.
15:45:23 <greensnark> Sounds like a new Olympic event
15:45:24 <Keskitalo> No it's not!
15:45:42 <Keskitalo> I just only had the xploding darts then!
15:46:18 * greensnark sedates Keskitalo and tucks him into bed.
15:46:39 <TGWi> is this what -offtopic is like?
15:46:39 <greensnark> with a rubber trout
15:46:49 <greensnark> TGWi: A little!
15:47:20 <greensnark> Now I get to go and try to sleep after quaffing like six cups of black coffee since midnight
15:47:28 * greensnark hies himself off to bed.
15:52:51 <TGWi> where's the new formula for ac?
16:06:25 <TGWi> encouraging not wearing a robe is bad
16:06:37 <doy> what?
16:07:28 <TGWi> http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:armour_training
16:07:38 <TGWi> robe stealth penalty :|
16:08:13 <doy> yes, i like the one based on evp better
16:08:31 <doy> although it's not like the other one would encourage not wearing a robe in any meaningful sense
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16:56:18 <TGWi> cryp71c: implement summon corner for xom
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16:58:53 <Cryp71c> TGWi, summon corner?
16:59:10 <TGWi> exactly what it sounds like
17:01:54 <Cryp71c> TGWi, xom moves you to the corner of the room?
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18:08:07 <due> I should.
18:08:08 <Henzell> due: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
18:08:12 <due> !messages
18:08:12 <Henzell> (1/3) greensnark said (5h 12m 32s ago): Why not allow Mara in Zot as well!
18:08:15 <due> !messages
18:08:15 <Henzell> (1/2) doy said (2h 45m 31s ago): sometime soon you should make a summary playtesting post with these issues http://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:testing_and_polish_needed_for_0.6_release#feedback_requested
18:08:19 <due> !messages
18:08:19 <Henzell> (1/1) doy said (2h 40m 4s ago): just an idea, not intending to sound pushing!
18:08:26 <due> doy: Good idea!
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18:16:36 <doy> !tell by turn speed is still not *quite* at 0.5 levels, but is more than acceptable now. thanks!
18:16:36 <Henzell> doy: OK, I'll let by know.
18:17:49 <due> Any complaints on the random  monster energy thing on CDO yet? :D
18:18:02 <doy> i like it!
18:18:16 <due> I haven't seen it yet
18:18:21 <doy> and tgw flipped out!
18:18:24 <doy> (as expected)
18:18:25 <doy> (:
18:18:42 <due> aweosme :)
18:20:43 <due> Any elemental rargh?
18:20:46 <due> @??fire elemental
18:20:46 <Gretell> fire elemental (08#) | Speed: 13 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 504(fire) | Flags: 11non-living, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 10elec++, 03poison | Vul: 12cold | XP: 195.
18:21:34 <doy> i don't hang out in ##crawl anymore, so... shrug!
18:21:37 <due> :)
18:21:42 <due> I meant in here
18:21:48 <due> David was concerned but not objecting
18:22:06 <doy> why concerned?
18:22:17 <due> not entirely sure.
18:22:20 <henryci> can_travel_to is actaully "can_travel_to_level" not "can_travel_to_position" grrrr.
18:22:30 <due> henryci: hehehe, don't you love it?
18:22:48 <henryci> Well right now I'm really happy b/c I understand where my bug is.
18:23:04 <henryci> so, yes!
18:23:09 <due> there still should be a "point is accessible via travel"
18:23:15 <due> you should ask greensnark
18:23:22 <due> or better, haran
18:23:32 <doy> the overmap knows, so it exists somewhere!
18:25:00 <henryci> I don't think overmap knows
18:25:04 <henryci> I think it lists all the ones you've seen
18:25:07 <henryci> whether they are accessible or not.
18:25:21 <doy> the overmap marks inaccessible tiles in cyan or darkgrey
18:25:28 <doy> and accessible tiles in blue
18:25:28 <henryci> Ctrl+f knows but it does it via a pretty long winded way.
18:25:32 <due> doy: X-map != overmap
18:25:34 <due> and yes
18:25:39 <henryci> OHHHH X-map.
18:25:42 <due> travelsaquare is safe
18:25:45 <henryci> X-map does it on the same level you are on.
18:25:46 <due> I was futzing with it for traps
18:25:47 <doy> what do you call the overmap?
18:25:53 <henryci> overmap is Ctrl+o
18:25:55 <due> Overmap is ^O.
18:25:59 <doy> that's not a map
18:26:04 <doy> why would you call it that
18:26:06 <due> overmap.cc :)
18:26:06 <henryci> but it's overmap.cc :P
18:26:12 <doy> well, that's dumb
18:26:13 <doy> (:
18:26:15 <due> yeah, agree
18:26:17 <due> it should change
18:26:20 <due> dgn-overview.cc maybe
18:26:24 <doy> yeah
18:26:31 <henryci> the way ctrl+X works is it's on same level
18:26:39 <henryci> which is different from inter level.
18:26:54 <due> yeah.
18:27:01 <doy> yeah, you'd need info about stair connections
18:27:14 <due> I think better to mark the altars as accessible or inaccessible when you see them
18:27:32 <doy> due: sometimes you can't tell though
18:27:45 <due> doy: Hm.
18:27:51 <doy> and i think a "can we pathfind to this tile" would be a valuable thing to have in general
18:28:10 <doy> (one that includes tiles on other levels)
18:28:11 <due> @??fire elemental
18:28:12 <Gretell> fire elemental (04i) | Speed: 13 | HD: 6 | Health: 18-48 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 504(fire) | Flags: 11non-living, lev | Res: 13magic(immune), 05hellfire, 10elec++, 03poison | Vul: 12cold | XP: 195.
18:28:13 <due> doy: Sure
18:28:40 <doy> there's an open bug currently where ^F doesn't actually sort by distance, since we don't really have any way of doing that currently
18:28:49 <doy> this would be a way to fix that too
18:29:19 <due> his is hilarious..
18:29:25 <due> We get "too much info, plz to fix"
18:29:35 <due> Now "omfg you deleted too much info fix it or I'll hate you"
18:29:40 <doy> ?
18:29:57 <doy> oh, the targeting stuff?
18:30:04 <due> yeah
18:30:05 <doy> i very much agree with all of that
18:30:26 <doy> some of the stuff that was deleted is pretty irritating to play without
18:30:27 <due> It's just amusing though, don't you think?
18:30:43 <doy> a bit, although not incredibly surprising since haran doesn't hang out on irc
18:30:46 <doy> (:
18:31:14 <doy> he can't hear all of our whining!
18:31:36 <due> hehehe
18:32:10 <due> @??earth elemental
18:32:11 <Gretell> earth elemental (08i) | Speed: 6 | HD: 6 | Health: 30-60 | AC/EV: 14/4 | Damage: 40 | Flags: 11non-living | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++ | XP: 84.
18:32:13 <henryci> So it sounds like for now the best thing to do is build this w/o marking inaccessible / accessible
18:32:23 <due> henryci:
18:32:25 <doy> henryci: yeah, can leave that bit for later
18:32:25 <due> Yeah.
18:32:30 <due> That will just have to wait.
18:32:32 <henryci> and then work on a "is tile accessible" function.
18:32:41 <henryci> or actaully a "distance to level_pos"
18:32:46 <due> Shouldn't itbe is_grid_accessible, though?
18:32:48 <henryci> which returns the distance, or -1 if not doable.
18:32:50 <due> tile means something else for us :)
18:32:57 <henryci> curse you people and your words.
18:32:58 <due> henryci: Yes, but you want to cache that.
18:32:59 <doy> due: i thought we were trying to change that
18:33:06 <due> doy: I have no idea :/
18:33:13 <due> doy: We use cell and grid interchangeably, and tile occasionally.
18:33:16 <henryci> distance_to_level_pos(const level_pos pos);
18:33:33 <doy> i vaguely remember someone (rob maybe) saying that we should stop using grid for individual tiles, since we also use it for actual grids
18:33:43 <due> argh
18:33:45 <due> cell, then.
18:33:48 <doy> but i don't know if we ever did anything about that
18:33:49 <henryci> level_pos ?
18:33:56 <doy> in any case
18:34:00 <doy> caching that would be hard
18:34:10 <doy> because lots of changable things can invalidate the cache
18:34:24 <due> hm
18:34:27 <henryci> doing a walk-throuch would be expensive.
18:34:32 <due> but you don't want to recalculate it each time
18:34:34 <doy> well
18:34:48 <doy> you can paths from the stairs to places on levels you aren't on
18:34:52 <doy> hmmm
18:35:00 <due> You could just mark it grey if it was inaccessible the last time you saw it.
18:35:02 <doy> depends on if you want to respect trapwalk_safe_hp i guess
18:35:51 <doy> this is actually a problem we've put a decent amount of work into for taeb(:
18:36:30 <henryci> I think the best thing to do now is just build this w/o accessible / inaccessible, and then prioritize trying to solve this for all tiles vs just altars, vs something else.
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18:36:38 <doy> yes
18:36:49 <doy> it wouldn't be that bad to do it for just altars
18:37:09 <henryci> but if it's going to be done it mighta s well be done in a way that is helpful for other things.
18:37:13 <doy> since you could just cache each altar on a level to each staircase
18:37:17 <doy> and cache paths between staircases
18:37:33 <henryci> I think finding path from staircase to position isn't so bad
18:37:36 <doy> and then you'd just have to do the actual pathfinding to the appropriate staircase on the level
18:37:37 <henryci> such that you could generalize it for any position.
18:37:53 <doy> yeah, that part would still be necessary for the current level
18:38:00 <doy> but that's pretty easy
18:38:06 <doy> (and possibly already done)
18:38:59 <henryci> What's the best way to start a discussion with everybody on pathing.  A mantis ticket, mailing list email, or chat about it once I finish the inaptly-named-overmap changes?
18:39:07 <doy> henryci: wiki page
18:39:24 <due> Wikipage!
18:39:30 <henryci> naturally, a previously unknown fourth option. :)
18:39:49 <henryci> url?
18:39:55 <doy> it'd be nice to do it generally for each tile... just whenever you leave a level, run dijkstra over the whole level, from each staircase, and cache the resulting paths
18:40:08 <due> dijkstra <3
18:40:12 <doy> then you could just pathfind between staircases, and that would be entirely feasible
18:40:27 <doy> and you'd have the ability to quickly sort any tile in the dungeon by distance from you
18:41:19 <doy> it'd probably be relatively memory intensive though
18:41:23 <doy> in a naive implementation
18:41:28 <doy> hmmm
18:41:29 <doy> maybe not
18:41:35 <henryci> The set isn't so bad.
18:41:59 <doy> maybe 30k per level or so
18:42:13 <henryci> Ok, off to dinner, then submitting overmap, creating the wiki entry on this, and hopefully championing it.  See ya'll in a bit.
18:42:20 <doy> see ya
18:42:21 <doy> (:
18:42:49 <due> see ya :)
18:43:18 <due> hooray, no glyph rargh!
18:44:34 <sorear> doy: The non-monotonicity bug was with shields, but the shield codepath is completely different now
18:44:43 <doy> ah, okay
18:46:01 <doy> man, playing a stealthy fighter is fun
18:47:13 <due> it is
18:49:48 <doy> J - the +3 shield of the Wilderness (worn) {rC+ Dex+2 Acc+2 Stlth+}
18:49:49 <doy> (:
18:51:08 <due> Using portal_Desc markers and feature_description is broken :/
18:51:48 <due> I can't work out why, it should work
18:56:13 <due> SpVm or SpBe?
18:56:15 <due> Be, why not.
18:56:26 <due> Or I could do SpFi of Fedhas...
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19:04:56 <due> Wait
19:05:02 <due> I just got a "your armour prevents you from hitting xyz"
19:05:06 <due> On a spriggan with a robe and a buckler
19:05:09 <doy> yes
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19:05:14 <due> that surely isn't the robe?
19:05:27 <doy> probably the buckler
19:05:31 <due> hm
19:05:34 <doy> ??buckler
19:05:34 <Henzell> buckler[1/1]: 3 SH, 0 EV; impairs your spell success rates strictly less than losing 2.5 points of intelligence would.
19:05:38 <due> shields 2!
19:05:43 <doy> ??robe
19:05:44 <Henzell> robe[1/1]: +2 ac 0 ev light armour
19:05:46 <doy> hmmm
19:05:55 <doy> neither have an ev penalty though
19:05:57 <doy> so not sure
19:06:14 <doy> i'm not familiar with the new formula at all
19:08:09 <doy> azrael, snorg, and rupert on vaults:2
19:08:10 <doy> fun!
19:12:32 <doy> and roxanne
19:17:23 <CIA-78> 03due 07wizlab * r6d6f4f443ae9 10/crawl-ref/ (79 files in 12 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into wizlab
19:19:34 <CIA-78> 03due 07vaults * r33d8a57eadca 10/crawl-ref/ (125 files in 15 dirs): Merge branch 'master' into vaults
19:32:09 <Ashenzari> Removal of timer on vaults (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=590) by fnwc
19:33:25 <due> But...
19:33:28 <due> The timers are the entire point.
19:35:09 <doy> it's true
19:35:19 <due> what is?
19:35:28 <doy> "the timers are the entire point"
19:35:32 <due> yeah
19:35:35 <doy> except for things like troves and ziggurats
19:35:39 <doy> which already don't have timers
19:35:48 <due> If you can enter them at any time, then a) you ruin the threat level, as it's tailored for that level
19:35:53 <due> you could just come back at XL15 or so
19:36:59 <doy> (this belongs as the 'reason' section for the closed (wont' fix) resolution)
19:40:49 * due closnig :)
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19:52:06 <due> murphyslaw--any relation to coleslaw?
19:52:55 * due hungry now.
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20:17:27 <doy> 78291 is having a fun time in lair, it seems
20:17:42 <doy> rupert, gastronok, lots of death yaks
20:26:46 <doy> mummies seem strange for part of a volcano monster set
20:27:01 <due> It's the volcano tomb set
20:27:22 <doy> doesn't make them seem less strange d:
20:27:31 <due> The layout is based on Tutankhamen's tomb!
20:27:34 <due> But yeah.
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20:27:47 <due> I loved the idea of a temple dedicated in a volcano but the priests all died so they got mummified.
20:28:01 <doy> i'd find simulacra strange too d:
20:28:15 <due> Heh
20:29:50 <due> Okay
20:29:51 <due> time to go out
20:30:24 <due> Bah, need to write an is_identified wrapper for items, ga. :/
20:30:37 <due> If ~ISFLAG_KNOW_TYPE on a randart, you ddon't know the name, right?
20:31:09 <doy> not sure what KNOW_TYPE means
20:33:12 <due> Me neither.
20:36:08 <due> TGW sees to have a somewhat grasp of our design principles, hooray!
20:36:31 <doy> sometimes!
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20:47:16 <Twinge> doy: I was already planning on bumping swamp worms and sharks back down in XP.  I was just going to wait until we submitted some of the other tweaks (size/weight/etc.) at the same time.
20:47:26 <doy> okay, good
20:50:23 <Twinge> I was thinking about kind of meeting it midway though - reduce xp some, but also boost their stats a little bit so they are still something of a threat
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20:56:46 <due> Hiya
21:00:13 * due testing the tileswater branch.
21:00:47 <doy> tileswater?
21:01:08 <due> there's some weird alpha/opengl imeplementation issue with certain graphics cards
21:01:16 <due> that make alpha transparencies craaazy
21:02:33 <Ashenzari> Monster/plant interaction needs tweaking (http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=591) by OG17
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21:11:36 <due> Gah.
21:12:50 <due> I can't get ccache set up properly on this machine. grargh.
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22:02:57 -!- SiberSchool is now known as Siber
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22:48:14 <doy> @players
22:48:17 <Henzell> 12 players: chukamok (L20 DSIE @ Vault:2, T:56957), evktalo (L12 HEAM @ Lair:6, T:25309), fiyawerx (L19 CeSt @ Lair:1, T:107020), hyperbolic (L15 OgPr @ D:17, T:41966), Kal (L18 DSAr @ Lair:2, T:86387), Kyrris (L7 SESu @ D:5, T:5957), MUMMY (L14 MuNe @ Orc:3, T:48826), murphyslaw (L9 DSPr @ D:9, T:7722), Stathol (L8 DECj @ D:5, T:9934), Yavar (L8 DDSu @ D:7, T:7677), yobbo (L14 KoTh @ Hive:2, T:40...
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23:38:42 <doy> hmmm, i thought saint roka was canonically female?
23:50:17 <doy> um
23:50:34 <doy> that was a bit extreme
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23:53:46 <sorear> what was
23:53:53 <sorear> I feel like I'm missing half the discussion
23:53:58 <doy> mara killed me in two turns
23:54:03 <doy> i was xl18
23:54:09 <doy> on vault:3
23:54:15 <Twinge> Ouch
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23:54:36 <st_> doy: Mara killed me in one turn yesterday, lightning bolt is really brutal
23:54:41 <doy> it really is
23:54:46 <doy> do the clones cast it too?
23:54:50 <sorear> yes
23:54:52 <doy> yeah, they do
23:54:57 <sorear> !lg doy
23:54:57 <Henzell> 759. doy the Severer (L18 DrCr), worshipper of Yredelemnul, blasted by an illusion of Mara (bolt of lightning) (woven by Mara) on Vault:3 on 2010-01-28, with 184232 points after 54024 turns and 9:33:40.
23:54:57 <doy> since i was killed by one
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23:55:06 <sorear> @?? mara
23:55:07 <Gretell> Mara (04R) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 10/14 | Damage: 30 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, see invisible | Res: 06magic(213), 10elec++, 03poison | XP: 7532 | Sp: mislead, mara summon, b.lightning, player ghost, pain, teleport self.
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23:55:31 <sorear> Why does mara have pain
23:56:32 <doy> !tv
23:56:32 <Henzell> 759. doy, XL18 DrCr, T:54024 requested for FooTV.
23:59:10 <ogaz> ouch
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