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00:43:39 <sorear> Twinge: No, that would be a step very much in the wrong direction
00:43:44 <Twinge> sorear: You think?
00:43:49 <sorear> Twinge: The problems with summoning aren't numerical ones
00:44:09 <Twinge> Well sure, there's the general problem with summoning in general, and the proposed cap for that
00:45:02 <Twinge> But I think spammals would still be too good even with that addressed
00:45:53 <sorear> the cap is only a tiny piece of the general fix
00:46:22 <sorear> you came in too late
00:46:35 <Twinge> Fair enough, are the plans on the wiki?
00:46:42 <sorear> no, they predate the wiki
00:47:24 <sorear> I have ~10,000 lines of ##crawl-dev irc logs from 2009 on the subject, but this is before doy started hosting them
00:47:31 <baturinsky> Maybe, penalty to casting summons for every summon already controlled?
00:48:10 <sorear> baturinsky: what part of "we've talked hundreds of pages on this" implies "I can join without reading any of the proposals"?
00:48:13 <Twinge> That sounds like a good idea, though I don't know what else has been discussed.
00:48:43 <sorear> Anything you can come up with at the spur of the moment has already been discussed to death.
00:49:54 <sorear> perhaps that was a bit snappish.
00:51:10 <baturinsky> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:summons:start   ---->    This topic does not exist yet
00:51:36 <Twinge> It was ;)  Maybe paste the logs on the wiki for a starting point, (or link them)?
00:52:07 <baturinsky> Ah, here it is - https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:magic:school:summoning&s[]=summons
00:53:16 <sorear> arghf.  That's not based on our discussion at all.
00:55:39 <sorear> When will people learn to ask for prior art?
00:56:05 * sorear is rather tempted to stop bothering with crawldev
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01:23:06 <Twinge> Well, the official places info is stored right now are the Wiki and mantis.  I wouldn't fault someone TOO much for starting up a discussing if it isn't already present there.
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02:56:53 <sorear> !seen Cryp71c
02:56:54 <Henzell> I last saw Cryp71c at Fri May  7 22:03:23 2010 UTC (2d 9h 53m 31s ago) quitting with message Quit: Leaving.
02:57:05 <sorear> is he coming back?
02:59:54 <greensnark> Is that suppressed longing I hear?
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03:00:59 <greensnark> Hm, hardware issues on cao?
03:01:13 <greensnark> What was the problem?
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03:45:42 <Ashenzari> Semi-controlled blink and deep water, using merfolk (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1522) by evilmike
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04:44:58 <dpeg> Cheers
04:45:05 <by> hi
04:45:23 <dpeg> !seen Henzell
04:45:23 <Henzell> I last saw Henzell at Tue Apr 10 15:54:10 2007 UTC (about 3y 4w 5d 17h 51m 13s ago) joining the channel.
04:45:36 <by> heh
04:45:44 <dpeg> So cao is up and running agani.
04:46:13 <by> so, why did Henzell see himself joining back then, but not recently?
04:46:34 <Zaba> by, perhaps he joined under a different nickname back then, for some reason
04:57:39 <by> I guess it's unlikely to be intentional that auxiliary unarmed attack damage is worse when fighting unarmed than when wielding a weapon?
04:58:33 <dpeg> by: I would say so, yes.
04:58:42 <dpeg> Has Cryptic been seen lately?
04:58:56 <dpeg> (I was not here since Thursday.)
04:59:27 <by> I wasn't here most of the weekend; didn't see him around
04:59:33 <by> !seen Cryp71c
04:59:33 <Henzell> I last saw Cryp71c at Fri May  7 22:03:23 2010 UTC (2d 11h 56m 10s ago) quitting with message Quit: Leaving.
05:34:47 <ixtli> Better visualization of crawl's .h deps
05:34:49 <ixtli> http://drop.io/j9y8ulm/asset/moo-png
05:35:34 <ixtli> Still working on it :)
05:57:52 <bhaak> ixtli: cool, that looks way more informative than the other one. even though it's 2.3 MB :)
06:02:10 <ixtli> haha
06:02:24 <ixtli> bhaak: source has been updated
06:03:55 <bhaak> ixtli: I wasn't ironic, I mean that
06:04:22 <ixtli> Oh no I didn't think you were being ironic, i just hadn't noticed the filesize :D
06:05:07 <bhaak> your visualisation shows that there is need for a refactoring of externs.h
06:05:22 <ixtli> Seems to, huh.
06:05:38 <bhaak> dpeg: nethackism in crawl: the name of "externs.h"
06:06:36 <bhaak> even the summary of that file is wrong. it's the same as in fixedarray.h: "Fixed size 2D vector class that asserts if you do something bad."
06:11:11 <bhaak> enum.h might also be split up a little bit, but at least everything that is in there seems to fit into that file
06:11:36 <ixtli> bhaak: http://drop.io/j9y8ulm/asset/nethack-png
06:12:18 <bhaak> well, before looking, let me guess. about 3 files that are referenced by everything else? :)
06:12:29 <ixtli> well, yeah basically.
06:12:42 <ixtli> Four or five.
06:13:02 <bhaak> hehe, I know that code :)
06:13:12 <ixtli> xD
06:14:50 <bhaak> looks almost tidy, what a surprise
06:15:17 <ixtli> It appears as though I've run the tool on the wrong source version xD
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06:15:28 <ixtli> I ran that on nh 342
06:15:31 <ixtli> instead of 343
06:15:42 <ixtli> Though I imagine that not a lot of header refactoring occurred in 0.0.1
06:15:44 <ixtli> :)
06:15:51 <bhaak> I'd be surprised if there were any changes
06:16:38 <ixtli> this tool is a good way to get simple dependency diffs.
06:16:44 <ixtli> maybe i should support that
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06:19:28 <ixtli> I'd have to make sure I sort output somehow.
06:21:26 <ixtli> bhaak: What does LOC stand for?
06:21:52 <bhaak> ixtli: Line Of Code
06:21:58 <ixtli> ah.
06:22:14 <ixtli> Interesting.
06:22:17 <due> helloooo
06:22:19 <due> was I miss'd?
06:22:22 <due> clearly not, hooray
06:22:24 <ixtli> due: I missed you!
06:22:54 <due> yay! <3
06:23:10 <bhaak> ixtli: "wc -l" does that. although it's a crude metric, I guess for headers it doesn't even need to be SLOC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_lines_of_code
06:23:33 <ixtli> indeed.
06:24:14 <ixtli> bhaak: Interesting.  The graphs may be inaccurate.
06:24:28 <ixtli> I seem to have used a ^ anchor in my regex to pull out #include statements.
06:24:49 <ixtli> Oh, never mind.  I included \s after it.
06:38:47 <ixtli> bhaak: it now prints full usage info, so you can mess with it if you want.
06:39:03 <ixtli> http://github.com/ixtli/depgen
06:41:09 <bhaak> where does it put the dot file per default? into the source dir?
06:42:01 <bhaak> oh, no, but i have to specify a file name :)
06:43:21 * due eats bhaak.
06:45:12 * bhaak begins bashing monsters with his cockatrice corpse.--More--
06:45:48 * bhaak hits due with his cockatrice corpse.--More--
06:46:09 * bhaak jumps through an opening in the new statue of due.
06:46:12 <due> :(
06:49:39 <bhaak> oh ... did you know stone-to-flesh, were you carrying a lizard corpse or a potion of acid, did you polymorph into a stoning resistant monster, were you wearing an amulet of life saving or did you just pray?
06:52:08 <bhaak> ixtli: for programs that don't like to keep their header files all in one directory, a recursive option would be handy
06:55:56 <due> bhaak: No, I'm real and nethack is just a game, and this is the internet.
07:00:45 <bhaak> suuuure and the moon landing wasn't a fake. ;-)
07:08:04 <due> it wasn't :)
07:09:20 * bhaak looks suspicious
07:09:36 <bhaak> and inglorious basterds wasn't a documentary?
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07:18:38 <by> since externs.h includes enum.h, and AppHdr.h includes externs.h, no header really needs to include externs.h or enum.h
07:19:04 <by> (missed an "and every .cc file includes AppHdr.h")
07:19:56 <due> yeah
07:20:02 <due> er
07:20:08 <due> don't some headers need enum.h?
07:20:32 <by> probably, yes
07:20:44 <by> ok, what I said was almost entirely wrong
07:21:06 <by> what I meant to get at is that externs.h and enum.h dependencies are much worse than that graph makes it seem
07:21:12 <due> yeah
07:21:21 <due> you touch enum.h you recompile every fucking object
07:21:28 <due> yes?
07:21:42 <by> yes
07:22:07 <due> yeah
07:22:14 <due> that's why commits with enum.h changes makes me :(
07:23:09 <felirx> thank god it only takes me 1min30sec to compile clean
07:23:12 <bhaak> the graph only shows header dependencies per default
07:23:14 <felirx> 20 minutes on laptop...
07:23:35 <due> felirx: :|
07:23:43 <due> felirx: fifteen for me on my netbook
07:24:00 <felirx> something like that, depending on the position of the moon
07:33:07 <Zaba> hm, externs.h is not that big these days
07:33:36 <by> I moved out player and monsters at some point :)
07:34:33 <by> Galehar's YASD on rgrm is a nice read
07:39:12 <Zaba> hrm.
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08:05:14 <due> night
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09:12:13 <ixtli> sigh
09:12:20 <ixtli> im still getting the linker failure
09:12:26 <ixtli> ld: warning: in /opt/local/lib/libpng12.dylib,
09:12:44 <ixtli> /opt/local/lib is fooling the contribs build
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09:21:49 <greensnark> ixtli: 64-bit Snow Leopard? :P
09:21:55 <ixtli> indeed
09:21:59 <greensnark> The main makefile forces 32-bit on the Crawl build for some reason
09:22:06 <ixtli> :O
09:22:09 <ixtli> Interesting.
09:22:14 <greensnark> I have to force it to link with the contrib libs instead of MacPorts
09:22:30 <ixtli> Also, my build time on my laptop is 2m3.536s
09:22:32 <greensnark> "Someone should file a bug" :)
09:22:46 <greensnark> Or fix it direct if they have 10.5 and 10.6 systems on hand :)
09:22:57 <ixtli> I ... am afraid of build systems xD
09:23:07 <ixtli> And I don't have 10.5 installed anywhere :(
09:23:26 <greensnark> We may actually support 10.4 also for build :P
09:23:42 <greensnark> But I think everyone has agreed that it's time to stop worrying about 10.4
09:23:59 <ixtli> greensnark: I have this nice system going where i comment out the part of my bash_profile where it adds /opt/local to the path by hand, then open a shell to build crawl in
09:24:06 <ixtli> then put it back in
09:24:09 <ixtli> and close
09:24:12 <ixtli> :'(
09:24:51 <greensnark> :)
09:25:08 <greensnark> I got rid of the megalame pkg_config :P
09:25:24 <ixtli> greensnark: Though the 64bit thing is just a symptom, correct?
09:25:42 <ixtli> it should always be building against source/contrib/ right?
09:25:45 <greensnark> If the main build didn't force 32-bitness, the MacPorts libs will work fine
09:25:47 <ixtli> It shouldn't be getting confused by path.
09:25:59 <ixtli> Oh.
09:26:04 <ixtli> This is why I don't like build systems :(
09:28:41 <Zaba> I have a mac mini here
09:28:48 <Zaba> I don't remember when I last booted it, and for what purpose, though
09:29:04 <Zaba> it's running 10.4, I think.  At least, not newer.
09:29:11 <greensnark> Zaba: Put Linux on it
09:29:24 <Zaba> greensnark, it used to be running freebsd for several years
09:29:38 <Zaba> But it heats like mad and a pain to maintain, so I replaced it with a somewhat better box :P
09:32:54 <bhaak> lol, DOS gets shunned with the last release and now it's time to go for 10.4. because, you know, they are both almost the same age and userbase ;-)
09:36:01 <Zaba> heh.
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09:37:04 <Cryp71c> Morning
09:37:05 <Henzell> Cryp71c: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
09:37:09 <Cryp71c> !messages
09:37:09 <Henzell> (1/1) sorear said (2d 8h 58m 7s ago): Would you explain the purpose of _select_monsterous_mutations?
09:37:53 <Cryp71c> sorear, you here presently?
09:39:05 <greensnark> bhaak: You use 10.4? :P
09:41:44 <Cryp71c> !tell sorear it bypasses the normal rules of _select_ds_mutations() and selects a set of mutations congruent with the new "Monstrous" ds mutation (there is no real MUT_MONSTROUS, but rather this special-cased function which picks mutations based on different rules. details in ??monstrous)
09:41:44 <Henzell> Cryp71c: OK, I'll let sorear know.
09:42:44 <Cryp71c> by, let me know when you have finished your re-rewrite of player_aux_unarmed, if you don't mind.
09:47:44 <bhaak> greensnark: nope, still an intel 10.5
09:50:18 <greensnark> bhaak: 0.8 :)
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10:13:35 <by> Cryp71c: more or less done; it would be nice to a) get rid of the transformation checks and b) move away from the "global" variables
10:14:02 <by> but b) is pervasive in melee_attack, and I guess we can live with the transformation stuff as is for the moment
10:14:39 <by> for the intended new effects, would knowing the current unarmed_attack_type in player_aux_apply() do?
10:16:47 <by> also, I'm a little worried about the extra off-hand punches that claws give you -- did babaa983 catch the spirit of f8e18373?
10:17:12 <by> I fear they boost ghouls and trolls too much
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10:34:57 <Cryp71c> by, yes that's probably sufficient to know the unarmed_attack_type in aux_apply, did those extra off hand punches exist pre-revision?
10:39:57 <Cryp71c> and yes, babaa983 appropriately reflects the behavior of f8e18373, though I had issues with checking !weapon before (!weapon was always true because of the instantiation methodology of the weapon var), and I see that's whats being done (sort of) in has_usable_offhand but IDK if it has the same effects since IDK exactly how weapon was instantiated / assigned.
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11:18:43 <ixtli> bhaak: Added recursive option.
11:18:50 <ixtli> -R5, for example.
11:20:29 <Ashenzari> Cap on items on a level too low (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1523) by casmith789
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11:26:14 <ixtli> bhaak: http://drop.io/j9y8ulm/asset/wholecrawl-png -R20 of crawl-ref/source/
11:26:26 <ixtli> its only 8megs png
11:55:41 <Ashenzari> Autoexplore doesn't stop on some items (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1524) by Core Xii
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12:37:27 <by> Cryp71c: maybe an option would be to trigger the extra off-hand punches not on MUT_CLAWS, but on some new type of demonspawn claw mutation? I don't know the DS unarmed plan
12:39:13 <by> got to go now, later
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13:42:47 <sorear> ??monstrous
13:42:47 <Henzell> sorear: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
13:42:47 <Henzell> monstrous[1/1]: Mutation slot guaranteeing 3 body-slot facets and 3 other regular ds mutations ; 1 / 10 chance; gives "You feel monstrous as your demonic heritage exerts itself." message when you gain your first body-slot facet.
13:43:12 <sorear> !messages
13:43:12 <Henzell> (1/1) Cryp71c said (4h 1m 28s ago): it bypasses the normal rules of _select_ds_mutations() and selects a set of mutations congruent with the new "Monstrous" ds mutation (there is no real MUT_MONSTROUS, but rather this special-cased function which picks mutations based on different rules. details in ??monstrous)
13:43:26 <Cryp71c> sorear, eventually (when more unarmed attacks get implemented) that will be 4 or 5 body-slot facets and only 1 or 2 regular ds mutations
13:44:21 <sorear> ok.
13:45:14 <sorear> now, why did you write an entirely new selector?
13:45:51 <sorear> it would have been simpler and less buggy to just use a variable template in the main selector?
13:53:07 <Cryp71c> I could've added to the current selector but the code (as near as I could imagine writing it) would've ended up looking like if(slots_lost != 1 || (getting_monstrous_set && slots_lost != 3)) goto try_again; which was very specific and would've caused tons more iterations (and visual latency) when playing a DS that's got the monstrous set.
13:55:10 <syllogism> Za. should abort instead of targetting the player if there's no target in range
13:59:11 <syllogism> well, I suppose it's not necessary
14:10:28 <greensnark> syllogism: You should ask one of those SA players who keep complaining about load times whether they've set their clock dates back
14:10:54 <greensnark> Crawl will recompile maps and dialogue files if the compiled file is older than the .des
14:13:23 <syllogism> greensnark: what is the _ that shows up next to ac/gold when you are exploring/resting
14:13:32 <syllogism> only in Tiles
14:13:40 <greensnark> No idea there :)
14:13:55 <greensnark> Is that new in 0.7?
14:14:02 <syllogism> i just tried 0.6 and it's there
14:14:10 <greensnark> Oh
14:14:13 <greensnark> New in 0.6? :)
14:14:18 <syllogism> I wouldn't know :P
14:14:30 <greensnark> Someone filed a bug yet? :)
14:14:49 <syllogism> unlikely :P
14:15:18 <greensnark> Catfish certainly likes to save his bug reports for whiny posts P
14:21:28 <Ashenzari> Flickering underscore next to AC / gold stats while auto-exploring or resting. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1525) by Tuxedo Catfish
14:21:50 <greensnark> Holy cow
14:21:56 <greensnark> A Catfish BR :)
14:22:00 <greensnark> Is he in here? :)
14:22:10 <syllogism> no, I told him to file a bug
14:22:40 <syllogism> report
14:23:28 <syllogism> so I suppose after that major issue has been dealt with he can move on to 0.6 :P
14:24:58 <syllogism> that's his first BR :P
14:25:27 <greensnark> <3
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14:35:00 <syllogism> greensnark: did you change gloorx yet? :P
14:35:06 <greensnark> syllogism: No :P
14:40:04 <greensnark> syllogism: Ever think that all the Hell and Pan lords have way too little HD? :P
14:40:10 <greensnark> I mean, ancient liches get 27 HD :P
14:40:33 <st_> are we buffing lords? :D
14:41:21 <greensnark> Talking about it
14:41:22 <syllogism> well I wouldn't mind their spells doing more damage, but I dislike how it would also affect MR and the needles
14:41:44 <greensnark> MR is a number that can be easily adjusted
14:41:48 <greensnark> Needles, well :P
14:41:51 <syllogism> well I suppose 27 can be overcome
14:42:00 <syllogism> even hd 30
14:42:17 <greensnark> 30 is for the lame m^W^Worbs of fire only
14:42:32 <syllogism> @?? the lernaean hydra
14:42:32 <Gretell> the Lernaean hydra (08D) | Speed: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 30 | Health: 150 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Damage: 18 per head | Flags: amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(120), 03poison | Chunks: 09poisonous | XP: 7599.
14:42:42 <greensnark> Ok, I'll go with option 1 :P
14:42:56 <greensnark> Lot of good that HD 30 does the Lernaean hydra :P
14:43:13 <syllogism> yes :(
14:43:38 <sorear> Why is the demon lord of Executioners so slow?
14:43:51 <sorear> It's like Mara being Speed: 5
14:44:02 <greensnark> Yeah, Gloorx should have Haste and three attacks
14:44:09 <greensnark> And monster dispel undead should be un-nerfed :P
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14:44:30 <greensnark> Or we could just make Gloorx speed 40 for the giggles :P
14:44:39 <syllogism> it's pretty nasty if he gets to cast it 4 times in a turn, not that he would ever do that :P
14:44:49 <greensnark> Yeah, that's unlikely :)
14:44:53 <syllogism> and the player is always hasted
14:45:47 <greensnark> I'll let sorear do the pan lord tweaks though :)
14:45:56 <greensnark> I'm saving my capital for Shoals boosts :P
14:46:37 <Ashenzari> Magical projectiles always "runed", never "glowing" (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1526) by Nobody
14:49:44 <sorear> Let's take a cue from D&D and add anti-haste fields as an FPROP
14:50:09 <greensnark> Heh
14:50:28 <sorear> The classic solution to overpowered spells
14:50:31 <greensnark> Give some boss monsters a dispel magic spell
14:50:43 <sorear> Of course, monsters aligned with the field don't suffer from it
14:50:44 <greensnark> That tosses say d3 of the player's buff spells
14:51:17 <greensnark> Can just double the monster speed if you don't want exemptions :P
14:53:34 <ogaz> give Lom dispel magic; it fits his fluff and heaven knows, he needs the buff
14:53:54 <greensnark> You said that just to get the rhyme in, didn't you
14:54:04 <ogaz> no, I realized it halfway throug
15:01:41 <Ashenzari> Have +/- toggle through items for apportation (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1527) by ogaz
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15:07:29 <greensnark> ogaz: Tried ; and ' for picking objects for apport?
15:07:44 <ogaz> greensnark: oh, no; didn't realize they did anything
15:08:26 <greensnark> Numpad users can use / and *
15:10:58 <ogaz> greensnark: it works, but it's counterintuitive; I never would've tried it if you hadn't mentioned it
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17:25:26 <casmith789> acid walls may need rebalancing
17:25:50 <casmith789> someone just got oneshotted climbing down from D:3 to D:4
17:25:55 <casmith789> by the walls
17:34:02 <felirx> that sounds like... fun
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17:39:49 <sorear> casmith789: acid walls were never supposed to generate outside the Slime Pits
17:39:56 <sorear> casmith789: if you get one on D:4, it's a bug
17:39:56 <casmith789> oh
17:40:48 <casmith789> wasn't me, was BirdoPrey
17:40:56 <casmith789> !tv BirdoPrey
17:40:57 <Henzell> 756. BirdoPrey, XL4 SENe, T:3369 requested for FooTV.
17:41:49 <elly> I mss the unique "Greater Hell-Beast" in Heng
17:41:54 <elly> miss, even
17:41:55 <casmith789> ^ that shows it
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19:07:05 <due> morn
19:07:49 <Enne> Heya, due.  :)
19:09:29 <due> I apparently needed a lot of sleep.
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19:11:25 <elly> due, you sexy beast :D <3
19:17:22 <felirx> wasn't plain spriggans supposed to not spawn yet or just the druids?
19:17:48 <due> @??spriggan
19:17:48 <Gretell> spriggan (15i) | Speed: 16 | HD: 7 | Health: 14-28 | AC/EV: 1/20 | Damage: 10 | Flags: see invisible | Res: 06magic(65) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 305.
19:17:51 <due> @??spriggan druid
19:17:51 <Gretell> spriggan druid (03i) | Speed: 16 | HD: 12 | Health: 24-48 | AC/EV: 1/25 | Damage: 10 | Flags: see invisible | Res: 06magic(112) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1096 | Sp: sunray (3d19), awaken forest, mushrooms, minor healing.
19:17:52 <ogaz> felirx: are you sure it's not a shapeshifter?
19:18:00 <felirx> didn't leave a corpse so can't be sure
19:28:08 <Ashenzari> Have apportation split stacks (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=1528) by OG17
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