00:43:54 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 00:56:08 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Quit: Computer went to sleep] 00:56:29 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:01:25 -!- Wensley_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:07:08 -!- Wensley_ has joined ##crawl-dev 01:08:12 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev 01:11:29 -!- Wensley_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:26:05 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:27:52 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 01:30:47 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 01:55:26 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:06:12 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 02:08:27 -!- Iainuki has quit [Quit: Iainuki] 02:08:44 -!- Iainuki has joined ##crawl-dev 02:57:35 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 03:19:27 -!- HowStupid has joined ##crawl-dev 03:19:32 0o0 03:20:40 -!- HowStupid is now known as CruelCoke 03:20:43 * CruelCoke is angry 03:20:48 :@ 03:39:17 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello] 03:39:25 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev 03:48:17 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: ixtli] 03:48:37 -!- CruelCoke has left ##crawl-dev 04:23:41 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev 06:22:55 -!- Amonchakad has joined ##crawl-dev 06:40:26 -!- Amonchakad has quit [Quit: When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net] 07:02:14 -!- Noom has joined ##crawl-dev 08:41:44 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 08:42:45 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 08:47:52 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev 08:47:55 !seen galehar 08:47:55 I last saw galehar at Fri Oct 29 22:33:40 2010 UTC (15h 14m 15s ago) quitting with message Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]. 08:48:44 Galehar mentioned on the balance wiki page that body armour can now only be enchanted up to base AC. I suggested this once on the mailing list, but I didn't realise this is already in. Is it? 08:49:19 I think it is 08:49:35 hey, cool 08:50:37 although I can't find the commit now 08:53:45 glad I could help 09:04:54 Scrolls of blank paper aren't identified if read while silenced (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2785) by momomoto 09:18:24 Your +4 robe glows green for a moment. 09:19:08 still, nerfing EV won't suddenly make AC good 09:21:08 I'd say that GDR idea that was discussed before looks most promising 09:21:15 so CPM can be enchanted up to +14? 09:22:19 casmith789: no 09:22:30 casmith789: to +8, just like animal skins 09:27:47 dpeg: a monster idea: "abyssal hound". Can teleport next to you, and it's mere presence distorts metric to one of: Chebyshev's, Minkowski's, Galehar's, skewed right, skewed left. 09:38:54 !seen by 09:38:54 I last saw by at Wed Sep 22 14:27:30 2010 UTC (5w 3d 11m 24s ago) quitting with message Quit: leaving. 09:40:08 TGWi: this is exactly what Chebyshev's metric is good for: a nasty distortion effect 09:40:34 and actually, Minkowski's (the other square), has smaller errors 09:40:41 or fundamental gameplay improvements 09:41:35 if you turn around, do distant things suddenly come closer and close thing farther? 09:41:42 s/thing /thins / 09:41:42 "errors" is an arbitrary and invisible metric and only distracts from actual gameplay shortcomings of circular los 09:41:45 er, things 09:43:08 please read the discussions again. Chebyshev's has a laundry list of flaws and the only claimed benefit not present in other proposals is debatable. 09:45:14 I'm cooking for a legion right now, and it's almost done, so can't talk really 09:47:51 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 09:48:09 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:48:18 BTW, try this: burritos with 1/2 wheat 1/2 maize pancakes instead of tortillas 09:52:25 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 09:59:09 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 10:57:13 -!- ixtli has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:03:44 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:05 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 11:34:18 why isn't Sticks to Snakes disabled for felids? 11:35:29 back for a moment 11:35:39 been playing with the kids all day 11:35:52 who won? 11:36:51 I survived! 11:37:09 ortoslon: arrows 11:37:45 kilobyte: feasting a legion sounds good. But a lot of work, moreso in Poland, I'd expect :) 11:38:47 kilobyte: does it work with javelins and spears too? 11:39:00 they're just as quiverable 11:40:09 nvm, i just saw i can wield arrows 11:43:10 "Really attack while wielding arrows?" what 11:47:59 do arrows in mouth interfere that much with my clawing and pouncing? 11:50:56 -!- Noom has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:54:06 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev 11:57:39 03dolorous * rff403e5c4c88 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Remove the erroneous paralysis effect from monster Injury Mirror. 12:22:14 -!- henryci has joined ##crawl-dev 12:31:05 Corrupted Save File (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2786) by Omndra 12:34:09 Can somebody forward an email to the dev list for me? I sent a message that's sitting in moderation and I'd love to get some feedback over the weekend because I'ev found myself with an unusually large amount of free time. 12:44:58 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev 13:00:06 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:00:31 kilobyte: please tell me once you're back. 13:00:46 Full and drunk, perhaps :) 13:06:15 merely bloated. Although now I'm left with sis' kid which is crying and seems to be ignoring my attempts to do anything about that... 13:06:46 kilobyte: age and gender? 13:07:13 6 months 13:07:18 oh :) 13:07:47 and neither her nor her husband will be back until late in the night, so I'm screwed 13:08:11 kilobyte: did you carry her around? 13:08:27 it's a boy, but of course 13:08:55 looks like the kid meeds his uncle not often enough to recognize me as a non-stranger 13:09:00 meets 13:09:27 kilobyte: their stamina usually doesn't last long to cry the whole night. 13:09:58 so just talking to it from time to time (to assure them someone's there and that the situation is not really hostile) is all you can do, imo 13:10:41 kilobyte: I've been writing to you because I second that GDR is a good way to distinguish armours. But I believe that reducing enchantments will help on top of that. Not urgent, of course, so we can add that any time we like (e.g. for 1.2). 13:12:23 Vodka + Tylenol PM works wonders too. :P (j/k, obviously). 13:12:24 holy crap... my mother just came back a minute ago and within seconds of approaching the kid he stopped crying 13:12:50 (everyone from the family came to my place today, that's what I meant by "legion") 13:13:24 kilobyte: he knows his grandmy quite well, it seems :) 13:14:03 dpeg: of course, I'm just somewhat afraid of piling too many nerfs to the opposite side instead of improving the one that's crippled 13:15:13 but "afraid" doesn't mean "vehemently opposed" 13:15:15 I agree that getting heavy AC style out of the mud has highest priority. 13:15:19 yes, I concur 13:15:50 but then, trolls have <10 EV <10 AC and somehow manage to win the game 13:16:35 kilobyte: but so often it boils down to the teleportation lottery in Zot:5 13:16:41 * dpeg is quite unhappy about that 13:17:19 I believe we will have at some point have to link Zot:5 population to the character... the first step has been made, with the runes ritual. 13:23:21 -!- henryci has quit [Quit: henryci] 13:24:52 (sorry, been messing with the nephew) do you mean, moving aside the rule that dungeon generation never cares for the character you're playing? 13:25:11 yes 13:25:34 in this case, you announce your character by inserting those runes into the machine (or whatever else that ritual is) 13:27:52 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:29:38 !seen Ashenzari 13:29:38 I last saw Ashenzari at Sat Oct 30 17:31:05 2010 UTC (58m 33s ago) saying Corrupted Save File (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2786) by Omndra on ##crawl-dev. 13:29:53 seems to not notice new Mantis reports 13:31:23 someone uploaded a new splash screen on the start of tiles... even more primitive than what we have but way cooler 13:31:27 New Title Screen, Blood, and Meat Chunks (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2787) by Omndra 13:31:46 dpeg: why do you think that making zot:5 generation depend on your character is necessary? I don't really see how that would work, so I'm curious 13:32:01 that's kind of a terrible title screen 13:32:20 yes, pretty bad technically 13:32:37 elliptic: Zot:5 is harder than it used to be, as evidenced by more characters relying on teleports rather than clearing one wing. 13:32:47 but still an improvement IMO 13:33:05 sure, it got harder in 0.6 with the resistance nerf 13:33:28 orbs of fire do twice as much damage as they used to 13:33:31 on Zot:5, it's unintentional that it's possible to dig&apport the rune in the original orb chamber (the dig beam travels through monsters), right? Either way, I liked it when you had to disint (but sadly the statues didn't actually block apportation properly) 13:33:31 kilobyte: if we need a new title screen, let's just pool together cool ideas, then commission someone to make a really nice looking one 13:34:01 The old argument was that we cannot reduce threat, since Zot:5 must also interesting to characters doing more than a 3-runer. (This is somewhat mistaken in that you could clear out Zot before doing hells, for example.) With Zot taking player runes into account (and other runes not existing/counting anymore), we can reduce difficulty for 3-runers while keeping it up for others. 13:34:03 and EV, which is what everyone uses, may be better on the average but really sucks against attacks which deal massive damage in one blow 13:34:20 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev 13:34:21 dpeg: partly I think that more chars are relying on teleports because that strategy has been publicized better 13:34:37 MDFi of old has both more hp and more consistent defense 13:34:46 elliptic: perhaps, yes. I don't have any specific plans for changing Zot. 13:35:01 so reducing orb of fire damage output could be reasonable, too 13:35:13 kilobyte: yeah, that's a good point 13:35:30 today's chars are squishy and have defense that works randomly... so they are not as good for prolonged fights 13:35:31 give orbs of fire iood-swarm of fire, rather than fireball/bolt of fire 13:35:38 dpeg: well, I'd suggest waiting until after haste nerf to try to adjust balance in zot:5 13:35:45 since that will change everything 13:35:51 elliptic: good point 13:35:53 elliptic: yes, I agree 13:36:21 hmm... let's deal with the haste nerf right now 13:36:49 especially that my nephew is now sleeping... (of course he'll start crying again the movent his grandma leaves) 13:37:11 what with berserk? 13:37:48 kilobyte: % based on spell power; wands/oka invo use strength; potions and berserk are always max; effect capped at 50% 13:37:51 I recently removed it ties with haste to fix problems with antimagic breath, but it has the side effect of letting us leaving it unnerfed 13:38:05 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev 13:38:36 Eronarn: that was discussed before, and having it do a non-fixed speedup is really complex 13:38:46 howso? in code, or? 13:39:08 kilobyte: berserk is fine, both for players and for monsters 13:39:19 mostly in code, but balance is affected as well 13:39:36 oh... monster berserk still uses haste+might 13:39:46 will have to change that too 13:39:57 kilobyte: what do you mean by balance, in particular? 13:40:35 actually, that's overdue since Trog's Bros tend to lose their might at like 1/3 of haste's duration 13:41:31 will executioners (and other outstanding hasters?) still get full haste? 13:42:05 monky: no, it will be symmetric 13:42:08 monky: i think leaving executioners only at 100% haste if haste % gets nerfed is a good idea because it makes them even cooler 13:42:32 i can't think of anything else where a difference would be interesting though 13:42:57 monky: monsters which do have haste as a spell won't have their base speed adjusted since they already get hit by the nerf 13:43:54 most other high-end monsters which are "pre-hasted" (ie, have it applied to their base stats) will be reduced 13:44:29 orb of fire and such at speed 15 sounds reasonable, yeah 13:44:32 greensnark suggested to apply this to monsters which make most people haste on sight, like liches 13:44:38 can we have ancient liches be speed 10, kthx 13:45:13 Eronarn: 10 has the drawback of being too predictable 13:45:21 kilobyte: ...what? 13:45:42 it would be nice if ancient liches were better than liches in some non-speed way instead 13:45:53 just thought I'd pop in and say that makes no sense 13:46:03 yeah, really 13:46:18 elliptic: ancient liches have more resists and hd/hp 13:46:25 dunno if it's a big deal 13:46:29 those aren't the biggest difference though 13:46:36 well neither is 12 speed 13:46:39 ie, guess why people like syllogism are up in arms whenever something like speed randomization could give a monster two chances to act in a row 13:46:44 tgwi: uh, yes it is 13:47:10 kilobyte: double acting is not a good thing, yes 13:47:40 ancient liches being 12 speed doesn't really bother me I guess 13:47:45 TGWi: to the contrary, I 100% believe it's something purely beneficial to the game (but not to the player) 13:47:50 but I'm glad that random uniques are no longer speed 11 and such 13:47:53 kilobyte: yes, I know and I agree. 13:47:57 @??nikola 13:47:57 Nikola (11@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 18 | Health: 190 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Damage: 20 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(120) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 4016 | Sp: shock (d18), chain lightning, blink, b.lightning (3d22). 13:48:01 ancient liches being speed 12 bothers me because there's no justification for it other than 'they should be better' 13:48:42 eronarn: eh, ancient liches are clearly a very special monster 13:48:45 elliptic: yeah that was really dumb i am amazed people actually are arguing in favor of it 13:48:52 'it makes them more unique!!' 13:49:36 elliptic: make them special by getting different spells, better stats, better gear, whatever. altering base speed is bad for the same reasons haste is bad: it makes everyone better at everything 13:49:37 Eronarn: it's not a matter of being unique, it's a matter of the player being able to expect their behaviour only stochastically rather than turn by turn 13:50:03 kilobyte: what. 13:52:02 the ability to plan it like a game of chess (I'll move here, he'll move to this spot, I'll move there, he'll follow) means that in order to play rationally you have to spend a long time thinking every move. Losing the ability to predict your opponent's moves that exactly speeds up gameplay. 13:52:10 you still know what they are up to 13:52:31 you just can't calculate several moves forward exactly 13:54:10 stochastic behaviour means you don't lose much by relying on your intuition instead of precise calculations 13:54:18 instead you have to agonize about what happens if they double move *this* turn 13:54:25 kilobyte: A) unpredictability doesn't speed up planning unless conditions are so unpredictable that planning at all is worthless B) rare random events are very hard to factor into plans because people either over- or underestimate them depending on the type of event C) those kinds of speed boosts don't even boost unpredictability that in the way you claim :I 13:54:27 kilobyte: there isn't much in crawl that you can calculate precisely anyway 13:54:36 also what elliptic said 13:54:42 they cast random spells that deal random damage if they randomly hit 13:54:52 your attacks do the same thing 13:56:27 this barely affects how people play around lichen, because nobody stands around waiting to die if they're in range of an iron shot 13:56:35 display stretched on a small screen (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2788) by ortoslon 13:57:01 double moves mean you have to plan for *two* iron shots 13:57:06 or lcses or whatever they cast 13:57:17 -!- ortoslon has joined ##crawl-dev 13:58:01 TGWi: which of course results in more possible outcomes (0-2 hits instead of 0-1), which makes planning more difficult! which, apparently, makes it take less time? 13:59:11 kilobyte: I think there are perfectly good reasons to have speed 12 monsters, but I don't buy this "unpredictability makes play more natural" argument 13:59:21 -!- Cryp71c has joined ##crawl-dev 13:59:25 planning for monsters being twice as dangerous as they are on average does not reduce planning time 13:59:29 hmm, perhaps. I wonder what to do with ancient liches then. 13:59:30 -!- Cryp71c has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:59:56 kilobyte: you could nerf liches and move them shallower a bit 13:59:58 even very random games benefit from planning 13:59:58 it is rational to think about the possibilities that could happen, regardless... in tight situations, it will always be a good idea to slow down and think about your options 14:00:03 see: counting cards 14:00:20 Eronarn: not really applicable because you don't get shot if you lose one game of blackjack 14:00:26 ok, let's plan how to balance liches, I'll go code the haste nerf for the actual spell first 14:00:47 TGWi: i guess you aren't playing at the right tables 14:00:48 kilobyte: I don't actually think there is a problem with ancient liches being speed 12 any more than there is a problem with orbs of fire being speed 15 14:00:53 Eronarn: :D 14:01:36 elliptic: personally i'm in favor of everything that is more or less humanoid being speed 10 unless there is a compelling reason for them not to be 14:01:47 Eronarn, you asked which balance issues. It's mostly that the high-end monsters have to be nerfed to match _something_. This means we either make high-level enchanters über-powerful or everyone else weak. 14:02:12 there are also several UI issues 14:02:28 kilobyte: i don't think this would be more of a problem with variable haste than with current haste; in some ways it would be easier because you could make monster haste scale with how tough the monster is 14:02:46 eronarn: ancient liches have an unnatural body already, infused with magic 14:02:49 -!- ixtli has quit [Quit: ixtli] 14:02:53 like, you drank a speed potion and then want to cast the spell. What should be the haste factor now? What with duration? What with the HUD display? 14:03:34 I don't think it is too unreasonable that in their ancientness they have figured out how to optimize their speed a little bit, given they are already keeping their body intact despite being dead and all 14:03:49 new and improved running technology 14:04:04 elliptic: yes it is possible to come up with all kinds of justifications, i just think all of the ones i've heard are pretty poor 14:04:17 note: there are two separate issues. Since adjusting monsters is more contentious, I'm asking if there are big reasons to have new haste use a factor other than x1.5 14:04:38 kilobyte: berserk, unless you've already talked about that 14:04:56 yeah, berserk is already handled for players, will be for monsters 14:05:04 not sure what with post-berserk slow 14:05:18 what're you going to do with berserk? just haste*1.5 without compensation? 14:05:21 should it be x0.5 or x0.666 like the enchantment? 14:05:32 kilobyte: well, for interface at least: it could be Haste, Haste+, Haste++, Haste+++, (all blue) Haste+++(magenta) 14:05:36 0.666 IMO 14:05:43 and then the normal fading colors for blue / magenta 14:05:43 berserk could use the buff 14:06:09 TGWi: 20:39 <@dpeg> kilobyte: berserk is fine, both for players and for monsters 14:06:17 berserk could use spell power for effect somehow... it strikes me as pretty sweet early, and apparently bad late 14:06:47 and trog, amulet use piety, evoc or whatever 14:06:59 since I have no special preference, the new code no longer uses haste for berserk, and dpeg prefers keeping it as-is, it will be as is unless someone disagrees 14:07:00 or it could just show your speed value using descriptors 14:07:05 berserk = 2x, haste=1.5x, slowness = 2/3x 14:07:06 like Fast, Very Fast, etc. 14:07:09 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 14:07:21 oh, you mean berserk is being special cased to keep its current behavior 14:07:22 elliptic: including post-berserk slowness, right? 14:07:23 cool, okay 14:07:27 yeah 14:08:08 as for the degree of hasting and the duration: you could keep track of each instance of haste separately, and tick time off the most powerful one, until it runs out, then start ticking time off the next most powerful one 14:08:44 if this is too strong, add a factor in that when you lose a tick from the 'active' haste, you have a chance to lose one from one (or all) of the inactive ones 14:09:09 do we need variable speed hastes? 14:09:10 kilobyte: I do expect that haste will still be a no-brainer at 1.5x though, not sure what to do about that... 14:09:11 ok. I'm going to code new haste, you gentelmen can think what to do with monster speed adjustments. Unless there is a better idea, I'd go with "slow everything people almost always fight hasted by slightly less than 2.0/1.5 times. 14:09:38 elliptic: there goes the ench split as well 14:09:47 are you going to adjust slouch as well 14:09:48 TGWi: i don't think we need it but it will make it a lot less of an always-use if you have to get invo/ench up to a very high spell power to hit 1.5x haste 14:09:49 kilobyte: do you mean slowing speed 10 monsters that people haste for? since that seems strange 14:09:50 does this mean we get 6-speed liches? :P 14:10:17 if when you have Haste at Good, you're only actually casting it for 1.1x action speed 14:10:19 liches, for instance, shouldn't be below speed 10 14:10:25 that's actually something where you might have to think about it 14:10:33 ok, ok... you guys start asking tricky questions :p 14:10:45 it wouldn't necessarily be worth raising ench to go only 10 or 20% faster 14:10:53 kilobyte: I'd just slow down the speed 20 monsters 14:10:58 to speed 15 14:11:07 dammit, the nephew woke up and is crying, gotta hug him and what not 14:11:07 and then sort out balance after trying that 14:11:23 even gloorx and executioners? :( 14:11:38 (variable haste also differentiates the potion better from the wand/spell/invo) 14:11:41 execs should keep current speed and haste, it's hilarious :( 14:11:48 executioners have haste spell to stack on top so they will still be faster than anything else 14:12:00 (also differentiates berserk rage spell from 'real' berserk, if you make the spell haste % based on spell power) 14:12:06 oh, hm, this sort of haste nerf will be a spriggan buff 14:12:09 15*1.5 is slower than a giant bat, elliptic 14:12:17 -!- henryci has joined ##crawl-dev 14:12:17 not sure whether anything should be done to swiftness-type effects too 14:12:19 elliptic: spriggan nerf time 14:12:50 how about just nerfing action speed? 14:13:05 so spriggans don't get any more silly 14:13:12 a spriggan (or any non-naga with swiftflight) will be able to outrun a speed 15 enemy even unhasted 14:13:25 i don't think this is a problem 14:14:57 just back 14:15:01 h'lo dpeg 14:15:09 keeping executioners at speed 20 is reasonable I guess, since they get hurt by the haste nerf already 14:15:40 executioners are fine the way they are really, going fast is their gimmick 14:15:42 Anybody know who the right person to talk to about refactoring the code in viewmap.cc would be? 14:16:03 gloorx and orb of fire might be the only monsters I'd reduce speed of, then 14:16:22 ancient lichhh :( 14:16:25 lolectric golems? 14:16:30 oh, golems, right 14:16:52 some demons have pretty weird speeds iirc 14:17:02 TRJ is 16, not sure it counts 14:17:04 also quicksilver dragon, isn't it like 18 14:17:12 ??monsters 14:17:12 monsters[1/2]: Type @?monstername in this channel (or in a PM to Gretell), or see http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/kielosto/crawl_spoilers/ss/crawl_ss_monsters_by_name.html If you want to see the stats of a monster in trunk, use @?? instead of @? 14:17:28 henryci: no, unfortunately not. 14:17:32 do monsters that can appear before players get haste get nerfs too 14:17:37 @??quicksilver dragon 14:17:37 quicksilver dragon (11D) | Speed: 15 | HD: 16 | Health: 62-107 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Damage: 25, 20 | Flags: sense invisible, fly, !sil | Res: 06magic(149) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 3549 | Sp: b.quicksilver (3d20). 14:17:38 e.g. harpies, agnes 14:17:48 harpies are batty 14:17:55 Can someone sum up the problems with making Haste and Speed give 1.5 speed rather than 2.0? 14:17:56 and agnes is fine without haste 14:18:12 dpeg: disagreement about how to adjust monster speeds is the main thing 14:18:17 also agnes already got nerfed when she became a spriggan instead of a grey snake 14:18:52 dpeg: 1) berserk 2) monsters that people always fight hasted 14:19:14 I don't believe there is any problem with berserk. 14:19:24 dpeg: also I sort of feel like swiftness-type effects should be nerfed a bit also, swift+flight shouldn't give a bigger movement speed increase than haste 14:19:29 berserk*2 or berserk*1.5? 14:19:33 or maybe it should but should be made more difficult to cast 14:19:40 And I think we all agree there is a level where Haste will become less useful than other options... say 1.1 speed gain. 14:20:00 elliptic: when you ask me, I never liked the swift+flight combo in the first place. 14:20:09 TGWi: berserk with 2.0. 14:20:21 dpeg: so that's just being kept the same, cool 14:20:26 dpeg: variable hasteeeeee :( 14:20:31 Berserk is well balanced, now that rSlow is gone. 14:20:38 will berserk's special haste stack with regular haste? that would be a bit silly 14:20:57 TGWi: should probably not, but I guess that's already the case right now. 14:21:02 TGWi: of course not 14:21:04 dpeg: I even think berserk could use the slight boost of having post-berserk slow be 2/3 instead of 50% 14:21:08 (Probably simply because the two hastes are identical.) 14:21:31 well, atm it extends haste (and then ends it when berserk ends I think) 14:21:33 elliptic: yes, perhaps. But that's minor compared to the other issues on the table :) 14:21:51 replace berserk with cheetahform 14:21:59 speed*6 14:22:03 executionerform 14:22:05 and then you overheat 14:22:27 TGWi: agnes got nerfed when she became a spriggan? 14:22:37 TGWi: I thought she just became an abnormally fast spriggan 14:22:39 monky: agnes was speed 18 14:22:40 @??agnes 14:22:41 Agnes (11i) | Speed: 18 | HD: 11 | Health: 100 | AC/EV: 0/20 | Damage: 30 | Flags: see invisible | Res: 06magic(102) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2973. 14:22:45 oh, you're right 14:22:46 berserkform would actually be pretty funny 14:22:58 berserk stone giant :V 14:23:00 @?agnes 14:23:01 Agnes (12@) | Speed: 18 | HD: 11 | Health: 140 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 30 | Res: 06magic(73) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2995. 14:23:07 well, agnes has less hp now 14:23:13 more ev 14:23:15 more EV but pretend you didn't see that 14:23:18 why is agnes speed 18 14:23:23 reduce her to spriggan speed 14:23:23 precedent 14:23:25 elliptic: because she's lithe 14:23:26 !!! 14:23:36 @??spriggan 14:23:37 spriggan (15i) | Speed: 16 | HD: 7 | Health: 14-27 | AC/EV: 1/20 | Damage: 10 | Flags: see invisible | Res: 06magic(65) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 305. 14:23:40 being lithe makes you almost twice as fast as someone else, for EVERYTHING YOU DO 14:23:50 player spriggans are closer to 17 speed, btw 14:23:50 isn't margery lithe 14:23:53 you even talk twice as fast 14:23:55 @??margery 14:23:56 Margery (04@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 22 | Health: 164 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 30 | Flags: spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(146) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 6882 | Sp: b.fire (3d32), fireball (3d33). 14:24:05 because haste is basically like playing a video of you in fast forward 14:24:24 TGWi: player spriggans are 10 speed and have a movement boost which is completely different from action speed 14:24:38 also: why do monster spriggans have innate 1ac 14:25:05 03dolorous * r37169ac44b34 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Move monster Cause Fear into its own function. 14:25:06 03dolorous * r9d28ea0eb4bd 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Convert monster Cause Fear to use an actor iterator. 14:25:09 03dolorous * r222f72752e29 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: In monster Cause Fear, add the fear-inspiring enchantment a bit earlier. 14:25:12 03dolorous * r11d5d64f1e08 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Simplify check for aligned monsters' being fear-affected. 14:25:13 03dolorous * r9b548201d3b7 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Fix erroneous logic in checks for aligned monsters' being fear-affected. 14:25:13 03dolorous * r0cf346d5ada0 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Make monster Cause Fear ignore players for pacified/friendly casters. 14:25:15 03dolorous * r6cd0585d6e6e 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Make monster Cause Fear ignore unnatural and "firewood" targets. 14:25:18 03dolorous * rfff92b5e18e8 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Add formatting fixes. 14:25:20 monster cause fear? 14:25:24 03dolorous * rbf1a89ed27c0 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Add punctuation fix. 14:25:29 anti-mesmerisation? 14:25:37 03dolorous * rfe8c0eff5c09 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Remove unneeded blank line. 14:25:38 03dolorous * r616b1cf208a5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc enum.h mon-cast.cc stuff.cc): Make "You are unaffected." a canned message. 14:25:39 03dolorous * ra96d03f78335 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Consistently display "unaffected" messages in a few more places. 14:25:46 or maybe anti-siren 14:26:02 oh, neat 14:26:02 due coded monster fear some time ago 14:26:03 that reminds me 14:26:12 i was thinking fear might be interesting on giant orange brains 14:26:30 @??giant orange brain 14:26:30 giant orange brain (04G) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 39-71 | AC/EV: 2/4 | Flags: evil, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(106), asphyx | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 786 | Sp: brain feed, polymorph other, shadow creatures, confuse, blink, teleport self. 14:27:10 they have a bunch of pretty random crap right now, i think they might benefit from a more focused/interesting set of spells 14:27:23 and fear would be a cool one 14:27:30 IMO remove brain feed from crawl 14:27:44 it is almost never interesting 14:27:45 elliptic: i think brain feed should stay but should do something other than just damage int 14:27:45 fear would be nifty in Slime, at least 14:27:53 driving players into acid walls 14:27:56 great fun 14:28:03 like make it disable a random spell every time it hits you, for a while 14:29:05 or make it "rot" maxMP temporarily, rather than just an MP drain ala ghost moths 14:29:15 elliptic: what is brain feed? Eating Intß 14:29:22 the effect is definitely crap right now, but the flavor is there 14:29:42 dpeg: brain feed is a smite-targeted attack with a low chance of draining a single point of int 14:29:43 isn't brain feed only 1 int (nullified by a single sustab) 14:29:57 yesah that 14:30:19 dpeg: most of the time brain feed attacks just do nothing because the player has a high chance of resisting it usually (not sure what it checks exactly) 14:30:21 lots of monsters have that 14:30:27 elliptic: it could be made interesting by making it stronger, of course 14:30:53 neqoxec specially, since they are overpresented among 3s 14:31:16 ^re 14:31:35 dpeg: maybe, but most of the monsters who have it also have a few other spells, so they wouldn't use it enough for it to mean much anyway 14:31:50 @??norris 14:31:51 Norris (04@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 214 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Damage: 36 | Flags: evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(133) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 7343 | Sp: brain feed, smiting (7-17), invisibility, confuse, paralyse, minor healing. 14:32:20 for instance, brain feed on norris is not interesting or flavourful as far as I can tell, and making it stronger wouldn't really help 14:32:39 norris isn't interesting or flavourful either though :P 14:32:57 stronger brain feed could be used, maybe just not where it's used now 14:33:22 maybe take a boring demon and give it brain feed + drain int attacks 14:33:27 like an int quasit 14:33:51 TGWi: it's already in the game, on neqoxecs 14:33:59 @??neqoxec 14:33:59 neqoxec (133) | Speed: 10 | HD: 6 | Health: 20-45 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Damage: 15 | Flags: 05demonic, evil, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(48), 03poison | XP: 183 | Sp: polymorph other, brain feed, call imp. 14:34:22 usually I'm more worried about polymorphing with neqs 14:34:38 kilobyte: neqoxecs are mutators, their brain feed attack is harmless in comparison 14:34:46 I was thinking a 4 or a 5 14:34:54 hairy devil? 14:35:01 lemure? 14:35:05 they're so hairy it's driving me crazy 14:35:07 @??lemure 14:35:07 lemure (085) | Speed: 12 | HD: 2 | Health: 6-16 | AC/EV: 1/12 | Damage: 5, 3, 3 | Flags: 05demonic, regen | Res: 06magic(8), 03poison | XP: 13. 14:35:10 lemure could work 14:35:22 @??quasit 14:35:22 quasit (155) | Speed: 13 | HD: 3 | Health: 6-24 | AC/EV: 5/17 | Damage: 305(drain dexterity), 205(drain dexterity), 205(drain dexterity) | Flags: 05demonic | Res: 06magic(5), 05fire, 02cold, 03poison | XP: 45. 14:35:27 i'd rather see brain feed made tougher, and put on a 2/3 14:35:31 a bit slower than a quasit 14:35:32 than sticking a really weak brain feed on a 5 14:36:00 again, 'disable random spell' definitely has potential 14:36:07 elliptic: depends on the character... on your average hybrid it's mostly harmless, on DDs or non-casters can hurt -- usually by taking away a ring slot from you 14:36:10 it's not scummable, or go-back-to-stash-annoying, like amnesia 14:36:35 hey kilobyte, you got a sec? 14:36:50 and it's okay if it doesn't do much to non-spellcasters (but also non-spellcasters have lower int, so are more threatening by that component of it) 14:36:51 henryci: trying to code something, but yeah 14:37:02 kilobyte: can you take a really quick peak at: 14:37:06 http://crawl.henrycipolla.com/ 14:37:19 it'll drop you off at a terminal, please ssh into cao and see what the speed / experience is. 14:37:31 don't be wreckless on my box, please. :P 14:37:59 henryci: did you see multirobin yet? 14:38:22 ??multirobin 14:38:22 multirobin[1/4]: Like other *robin accounts, you share it with other players. Unlike other *robin accounts, they're logged in at the same time you are. In fact, all keypresses are shared! See multirobin[2] for setup/login details. See multirobin[3] for something awesome. 14:38:38 ??multirobin[3] 14:38:38 multirobin[3/4]: Holy shit, you can play multirobin in your browser! http://eronarn.info/multirobin/ 14:38:42 henryci: it fails to connect 14:39:06 (the black is a bit buggy, you have to highlight it to see that it's at the login screen) 14:39:12 same from a completely different ISP, so it's not a connection problem on my side 14:39:37 kilobyte, it should. 14:39:42 ssh joshua@crawl.akrasiac.org 14:39:48 doesn't provide a login screen? 14:40:11 it's totally playable ssh my server => ssh cdo atm... shellinabox, it's playable for some people, depending on lag 14:40:19 though autoexplore really, really lags it 14:40:25 Eronarn's demo gives a good idea of it. 14:40:27 The way I've got mine set up 14:40:36 the connection to CAO is done through dreamhost 14:40:36 nc: unable to connect to address crawl.henrycipolla.com, service 80 14:40:41 so it won't lag depending on connection. 14:40:45 ohhh. 14:40:47 you can't hit the box. 14:40:53 that's odd. 14:41:45 can you ping it? what ip you get back? 14:42:09 duh, should check that first. No ping. 14:42:18 DNS says 69.163.169.81 14:42:43 It's a dreamhost VPS box that's def. up. And that's the right ip. Let me see. 14:42:53 Eronarn: can you hit my box? 14:43:05 four different ISPs, but all in Poland 14:43:45 henryci: yep 14:44:04 definitely playable 14:44:37 i mean, the lag is noticeable - but only about as bad as, say, telnet 14:44:54 yeah 14:45:19 The reason I bring this up, is in the email kilobyte suggested that ajax would just be too slow. And I'm wondering if this is evidence to the contrary. 14:46:16 henryci: it's not that it's going to be universally too slow, is my understanding, but that it will be too slow for some players, and prone to much bigger lag spikes 14:46:43 What would make it slower than regular telnet? 14:48:55 having to go them => you => another server has the potential to be much slower than telnet 14:49:12 henryci: I mean, it effectively multiplies pings by 3 -- which is a multiplicative not an additive slowdown 14:49:54 like, on this decent ISP, I have pings: to CDO: 43ms, to CAO: 133ms, to Australia: 400ms. 14:50:18 But the 'you' step gets cut out. 14:50:20 The server at crawl.henrycipolla.com is taking too long to respond. 14:50:32 b/c if things actually work 14:50:44 you could run the service on the same box hosting CAO. 14:51:17 So it's just a matter of you=>CAO. Which seems like it could be fast enough. 14:51:30 (also, my CAO ping is ~25ms; my CDO ping is ~115ms) 14:52:19 henryci: yes, it would definitely see improvement if it were on the same box - though it's additional resources (shellinabox, at least, made my CPU spike to 100% with a very small number of users - i don't have a beefy VPS but it was surprising) 14:52:48 (my cao ping is ~115ms; cdo ~195ms) 14:53:14 monky: heh, try living near boston, owned B) 14:54:01 so what if it's initially done as a java applet, then. So it can telnet/ssh directly into the box and receive the data back? 14:54:28 on 3G: cdo 360-450ms, cao 407-560ms (huge variance) 14:55:00 well, i think it's actually somewhat feasible that it could run on a crawl.*.org 14:55:11 it'd just need some testing, especially with alternative options / configs 14:55:25 to make sure it was A) playable for a large # of users B) without harming people not using it 14:55:34 03dolorous * r68908590ce47 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Don't use monster Cause Fear if nothing will be scared by it. 14:56:03 henryci: do you want to have AJAX console for now, or was this just a test for tiles? 14:56:05 btw, to everybody who couldn't connect: Dreamhost is having problems at the moment. So it's reasonable that my box was inaccessible. 14:56:15 This was just a test for the tyles. 14:56:17 another option would be to do a new server specifically for browser-crawl 14:56:26 *tiles 14:56:34 dpeg: how does monster fear work? 14:56:43 this way, you aren't dumping maintenance tasks on the people who run CAO and CDO 14:56:52 henryci: so just screw transport issues, code for websockets only, this will handle experimental browsers and can be ported later on 14:56:55 Eronarn: Can that be done and still share out hte morgue data? 14:57:11 henryci: if an agreement to that effect is reached, sure 14:57:18 henryci: since websockets do not suffer from the ping*3 problem 14:57:20 cao and cdo didn't used to be as integrated 14:58:00 kilobyte: one decision that would be harder to change later is the communication protocol itself. Do you think JSON is reasonable? 14:58:50 it's not that wasteful... actually, it's among best text protocols 14:59:02 it runs circles around XML and similar crap 15:00:07 And my last question was around sending updates vs the entire map. Updates are obviously a better way to do things but I think I can get a prototype out the door faster if the entire thing is sent every time, is that unreasonable? 15:00:38 of course 15:01:34 it _seems_ to be there is no big difference, but still, the difference is non-zero so it can hinder development by at least a bit 15:02:28 TGWi: you just cannot come closer, I think 15:02:34 cool 15:03:09 give it to giant orange brains <3 15:03:35 TGWi: I tested it in wizmode once, and it played cool 15:03:36 GOBs, a p or W, and a unique should probably be enough places to make use of it at start 15:04:01 it was gonna go on greater wraiths, right? 15:04:52 @??giant orange brain 15:04:52 giant orange brain (04G) | Speed: 10 | HD: 10 | Health: 39-71 | AC/EV: 2/4 | Flags: evil, see invisible, lev, !sil | Res: 06magic(106), asphyx | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 786 | Sp: brain feed, polymorph other, shadow creatures, confuse, blink, teleport self. 15:15:18 -!- ixtli has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:16:24 -!- ixtli has joined ##crawl-dev 15:26:23 I assume there is no problem bringing in a public domain 3rd party library? (jasoncpp) 15:28:31 I want to suggest that the corrosion save by enchantment use a better formula 15:28:34 where would I do that? 15:28:50 where on the wiki* 15:28:53 the balance page, of course 15:28:58 :P 15:30:03 TGWi: chance of no corrosion = 1^(Ench) 15:30:38 -!- ortoslon has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:30:44 henryci: public domain is actually the only "license" that is compatible right now. That's why we're going for the GPL. 15:31:38 I'd be concerned if we managed to have a project that couldn't use public domain stuff. 15:31:53 kilobyte: do you want to know why your statement is wrong? ;-) 15:31:55 that's impossible :p 15:32:28 03dolorous * rbc88135308bc 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Improve checks for monster Cause Fear's actually succeeding. 15:32:31 03dolorous * rc1b9eff9a255 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fearmonger.cc spl-goditem.cc): Comment fixes. 15:32:35 03dolorous * r33f949816227 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fearmonger.cc mon-cast.cc player.h): Improve checks for monster Cause Fear's succeeding on players. 15:32:49 bhaak: actually, a license that allows even relicensing without the author's approval would be fine 15:33:05 henryci: Doesn't some courts reject the notion that you can unassign copyright at all? 15:33:15 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev 15:33:23 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev 15:33:29 bhaak: and the "contrib" part is running around the issue (even if it can't do it for the binary) 15:33:31 kilobyte: yes, BSDs would be fine, too. But also licenses that allow dynamic linking for libraries. 15:33:40 yes 15:34:12 Zao: yeah, that's why it's rarely used 15:39:45 03dolorous * r46d872cc3303 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc: Fix bad logic keeping the monster Cause Fear checks from being used. 15:43:00 new libraries go in /contrib right? 15:44:24 hrm, that would cause a problem since /contrib is not shipped by default 15:44:59 and I don't see this library packaged on Debian (so it's unlikely to be on Red Hat or BSD as well) 15:45:36 what about another directory? 15:45:41 does it make sense to make a source/lib then 15:45:43 for such things? 15:45:49 yeah 15:45:53 done, thanks. 15:46:25 cool! 15:46:37 kilobyte: have you seen the insanity of artistic 2.0? 15:46:43 -!- henryci has left ##crawl-dev 15:46:52 -!- henryci has joined ##crawl-dev 15:47:58 sorear: no 15:48:56 What are the goals of the new license. Allow code to be re-used w/ attribution? 15:49:15 henryci: allow crawl to be legally distributed 15:49:47 wouldn't a modified BSD license get you there the quickest? 15:50:10 henryci: we discussed that in depth 15:50:23 and GPL won? 15:50:33 it seems that GPL is the best choice for what we want (which includes legacy considerations) 15:51:18 henryci: 1. some contributors don't agree to that, 2. the old license is quite similar to the GPL, with the biggest difference is not having the "compatible licenses" part, 3. it is good to be able to use code of any forks and variants 15:51:42 s/is/being/ 15:52:59 one reason is that we cannot contact all former developers, so we want a license that's as close as possible to the current one 15:54:22 although if you want to get former developers to cry out, you should choose a license that is as different as possible :) 15:54:30 :) 15:54:54 strictly speaking, we are not allowed to relicense without their approval, so it will be a copyright violation unless we rewrite every single line without known author 15:55:19 I never understood one bit... what does "rewrite" mean here? 15:55:56 kilobyte: yes, that's why I've got a bucket full of popcorn ready since I heard first about your relicense :) 15:56:03 but the consequences are not that bad, so I agree with greensnark that a cavalier solution would be acceptable 15:56:31 We have Linley's consent, so we'll be fine. 15:56:44 no Brent Ross, though 15:57:19 yes 15:58:15 dpeg: to be legally on the safe side, a "rewrite" would mean to rip out the code and let a developer that has never seen the code, rewrite it only by telling him/her what the code should do and not by telling him/her how it was done in the old code 15:59:45 hey, we could rid our code of the scourge of C++ at the same time *ducks* 16:00:14 bhaak: have there ever been lawsuits about whether something is a proper rewrite or not? 16:00:20 yes, rewrite crawl in python. that would solve all license issues :) 16:00:43 sorear: I agree with the sentiment (I hate C++), but it's the new code that uses C++, not old :p 16:00:57 dpeg: not that I know of 16:01:30 bhaak: quite a few... like, the current Java brouchacha between Oracle and Google 16:01:43 I assume all of this is pretty academic. 16:01:49 always between big companies, though 16:01:52 yes 16:02:09 kilobyte: but that's a simple copyright infringement as far as we know currently. not that google didn't rewrite enough code 16:02:48 SCO vs IBM because of Unix code in linux also was because of (claimed) copying of code 16:03:03 the only case of an open source lawsuit in the small scale I know about is the netfilter cases 16:03:06 someone who does exploit Crawl commercially could suffer, but for us, it's very, very unlikely the consequences could be worse than merely being barred from distributing these parts of Crawl 16:03:19 right 16:03:55 bhaak: not really, it's about 1. whether the APIs are copyrightable, and 2. SCO-like allegations of copying rather than a clean rewrite 16:04:17 Speaking as a manager, a black market reputation will be good for the game anyway. 16:04:27 but then, I know about that lawsuit from slashdot, not from a proper legal source 16:05:07 IIUC the SCO lawsuis basically revolved around the correct interpretations of the BSDi fiasco 16:05:49 sorear: and if SCO even had the Unix copyright. But they didn't know that when they started suing :) 16:06:05 kilobyte: I've always heard "directly copying" 16:06:06 dpeg: can you imagine someone suing the Crawl devteam? Which is not even sueable as it doesn't have a legal personality so it would be a lawsuit against a single specific developer. 16:06:22 bhaak: that's what Oracle claims 16:06:46 bhaak: while Google responds that they did a clean-room rewrite 16:07:00 We should update the wiki to suggest that developers don't contribute with their real names. :P 16:07:23 kilobyte: yes, so we should lightheartedly announce the switch to GPL with the 0.8 release. (We will broadcast this some time earlier on the few available channels.) 16:07:46 henryci: it would be a person who made the decision, not a random contributor 16:08:44 and hey, an injunction that bars you from distributing Crawl is not the end of the world 16:09:25 especially since everyone else could replace the tainted part then 16:10:22 so greensnark is right with saying "screw this, we're not a large corporation" 16:10:35 yes, exactly 16:13:12 !learn del devteam[5] 16:13:12 Deleted devteam[5/5]: bunch of assholes 16:33:41 maybe it's just me, but elephants are *REALLY* hard to spot in the lair forest endings 16:38:49 -!- henryci has quit [Quit: henryci] 16:49:00 yeah, green on green 16:53:14 kilobyte: yikes, where did that come from :/ 16:54:12 sorear: it's normal... The SF feedback page also had about 2% expletives. 16:54:31 Had? 16:55:22 well, it's still there but I don't think it draws much traffic these days. 16:57:03 Eronarn: http://magiccards.info/od/en/240.html 16:58:24 heh 16:58:41 also, I've seen real elephants and I can tell you they are pretty good at hiding 16:58:42 TGWi: :-) 16:59:27 @??hellephant 16:59:27 hellephant (04Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 130-198 | AC/EV: 13/10 | Damage: 45, 20, 15 | Flags: 05demonic, !sil | Res: 06magic(133) | XP: 3632 | Sp: fire breath (3d40), blink. 16:59:29 @??dire elephant 16:59:29 dire elephant (02Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 15 | Health: 89-132 | AC/EV: 13/2 | Damage: 40, 15 | Res: 06magic(100) | XP: 1612. 16:59:36 hmm 17:00:05 I'd suggest red/lightred for elephant/dire but hellephants need a colour too 17:01:44 but yeah, lair has a bunch of plants and I'm pretty sure a green floor, having a common monster also be green seems wrong 17:02:20 frogs and plants are too weak to matter? 17:03:32 TGWi: hellephants can be magenta 17:04:04 monky: plants aren't much of a threat, no 17:04:44 do newts spawn in lair 17:04:55 probably really rarely 17:06:35 whoah holy damn 17:06:39 this ice cave has 4 spellbooks 17:06:55 ice caves have pretty fair loot, they're crazy 17:07:18 oh it is all the ice books, haw haw haw 17:07:25 "Why do elephants have small red eyes?" "To better hide among rowan trees." "But I haven't ever seen an elephant among rowan trees." "See how well it was hidden!" 17:07:32 (i found an awesome randart ring earlier, but it is Fire) 17:08:10 @??nellie 17:08:10 Nellie (13Y) | Speed: 10 | HD: 20 | Health: 240 | AC/EV: 13/10 | Damage: 45, 20, 15 | Flags: 05demonic, !sil | Res: 06magic(133) | XP: 4813 | Sp: fire breath (3d40), blink. 17:08:23 what colour is that? 17:08:29 lightmagenta 17:08:30 I think 17:09:15 oh, the purple colour that randarts use 17:09:16 cool 17:13:24 dpeg: should I push the haste nerf before high-end monster speeds are adjusted? 17:14:16 kilobyte: yes, I support that. 17:14:37 We know we want the haste nerf; we don't really know in detail how to adjust monster speeds. 17:14:42 So let us do that first step. 17:14:42 TGWi: er, shouldn't the elephant token from that card have trample? 17:15:32 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:15:45 for stealth elephants: is normal red, dire lightred, hellephant magenta a good scheme? 17:15:51 http://magiccards.info/ul/en/110.html 17:15:57 kilobyte: stealthephants 17:16:17 kilobyte: yes 17:16:41 03kilobyte * rc52050161532 10/crawl-ref/source/ (defines.h main.cc mon-clone.cc monster.cc player.cc): The haste nerf. 17:16:43 03kilobyte * r5edd1c11029e 10/crawl-ref/source/status.cc: Display on the HUD if you're both hasted and slowed. 17:16:47 03kilobyte * r3de0d12ca659 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-grow.cc monster.cc monster.h): Recalculate monster speed on haste/slow instead of multiplying the old value. 17:16:48 03kilobyte * r59df94f2a599 10/crawl-ref/source/ (fight.cc godabil.cc mon-info.cc monster.cc): Untie monster berserk from haste+might, make the speed boost x2. 17:24:18 does archmagi need a drawback? 17:26:23 not really... it's just a staff+part of a ring 17:27:01 nobody uses it, perhaps it could take a buff 17:27:27 it probably shouldn't boost Haunt twice 17:27:29 ??archmagi 17:27:30 robe of the archmagi[1/2]: Enhances necromancy, conjuration, enchantment, and summoning. And acts as 2/3 of a ring of wizardry. Incredibly powerful, but crippled by causing exp gain to be reduced by 75%. Keep it somewhere safe and put it on right before Zot (except Zot has the best exp in the game...). Wear a robe of resistance instead! 17:28:17 and Regen, but power doesn't matter much there 17:28:21 you could remove necromancy 17:28:26 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:28:30 since the other three don't have any dual-school spells 17:29:07 or heck, it might boost _all_ schools by 1, but without stacking 17:29:31 perhaps 17:29:33 since almost everything uses one of the boosted schools 17:29:37 ok, no tmut 17:29:45 pure elemental spells 17:30:21 which are... Airstrike... and probably something I can't name from the top of my head 17:30:25 freeze 17:30:33 cure poison :P 17:30:36 orefrig 17:31:21 I don't really consider poison an element 17:31:34 the apt screen groups them 17:31:49 I don't think it slows down elemental training, though, so whatever 17:32:47 Toxic Radiance 17:33:55 translocations 17:35:43 that's the complete list 17:36:41 scroll of amnesia should prompt to cancel probably 18:09:36 a bit buggy: 18:09:38 The snapping turtle appears confused. The snapping turtle withdraws into its shell! The snapping turtle is engulfed in noxious fumes. 18:09:41 _The snapping turtle misses something. 18:35:30 I wonder why greater mummies give 6x the XP of mummy priests if they are weaker than them. 18:36:43 ????? 18:36:43 weaker? 18:36:53 are you thinking of guardian mummies 18:38:22 mummy priests immediately smite you to death while summoning lots of crap 18:39:03 they also die 6x as quickly quickly 18:39:10 -quickly 18:39:38 if you deal with the summon storms 18:40:50 aren't greater mummies the same as mummy priests but with more hd, hp, punch, exp, speed, and nastier death curses 18:54:31 -!- FunkyGnoll has quit [Quit: Leaving] 19:14:55 03kilobyte * r64c5cd775d2f 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h: Compensate for the haste nerf by slowing monsters that most people fight hasted. 19:15:17 kilobyte: what changed? 19:15:33 orb of fires, electric golems, ancient lichen? 19:15:56 did you change greater mummies :( 19:18:12 and: is slow 2/3, and if not is haste+slow special cased to 1? 19:18:41 speed 9 golden dragons and liches? 19:18:54 speed 9 greater mummies ;_; 19:18:58 wait, actually? 19:19:03 just make all mummies the same speed 19:19:03 http://crawl-ref.git.sourceforge.net/git/gitweb.cgi?p=crawl-ref/crawl-ref;a=commitdiff;h=64c5cd775d2f1b33564c9f04249d3b40d99e564c 19:19:50 speed 9 fiends 19:19:51 really? 19:21:40 I'd change the speed 9s back to speed 10 19:21:45 me too 19:21:48 yes 19:21:51 (and make regular lich weaker and shallower) 19:22:07 let's not have random speed 9 things 19:23:26 also random speed 11 things? ?_? 19:23:59 speed 11 could go back to 12, I guess 19:30:02 fiend are kind of way to tough to fight without haste unless you are super buff so 19:30:48 but being able to run away from them if they appear at edge of los? 19:31:26 st_: that's not actually true 19:31:31 individual ones are fine 19:31:45 summoners/hell effects bringing in craploads of them is more of a problem 20:10:37 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.] 20:12:38 -!- Noom has joined ##crawl-dev 20:15:06 -!- Noom has left ##crawl-dev 20:16:45 -!- MadCoyote has joined ##crawl-dev 20:37:38 -!- syllogism has quit [] 20:39:27 -!- aboleth has joined ##crawl-dev 20:39:36 hi 20:40:10 what? 20:40:10 due: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it. 20:40:15 !messages 20:40:15 (1/1) Mu_ said (1d 1h 50m 4s ago): still no dialogue in cigotuvi's fleshworks on CDO for some reason :( 20:40:20 due: what? 20:44:54 This morning I was playing DC I thought that I wish I had some music to specifically use for background music that fits it well. Then I decided to make my own. I've been working on this song which I called Quest For The Orb most of the day and just finished it about an hour or so ago. I was wondering if it could get officially included with DC, possibly the tiles version, since Vulture's Eye has music which isn't that far fro 20:46:18 don't think I'm a dev, but can you link it? 20:47:01 sure 20:47:06 sorry forgot to do that 20:47:19 TGWi is a dev 20:47:30 a devoted follower of Wiglaf, that is 20:47:41 is that what dev means? 20:47:43 http://www.mediafire.com/?wvet4xtd80wdv8y 20:48:08 i could also send the original xm file 20:48:11 but i'd have to upload that 20:48:15 TGWi: no, it's short for Devo 20:48:26 if this gets included i'd give that along with it of course 20:50:04 * due downloads 20:50:36 ? 20:50:49 oh you just downloaded it? 20:51:27 yes, i'm downloading it 20:53:23 this is pretty cool :D 20:53:59 it is 20:54:40 aboleth: thanks! i'll have to chat with enne to see what we can do about including it in tiles 20:54:54 but either way, a DCSS soundtrack = awesome 20:55:03 argh, damnit 20:55:06 that site's popups 20:55:35 crawl should have music per branch 20:57:53 some nice jigs for shoals, something intense for hells 20:58:10 and, uh, for slime... 20:58:11 that one could be crypt, or a title theme 20:58:29 gehenna would be metal 20:58:30 slime should have extremely disgusting environmental noise 20:58:32 or dis 20:58:59 yeah i was thinking of doing that 20:59:03 but i just made one for now 20:59:24 since i can't have it switch based on branch without doing it manually 20:59:29 which would be annoying 20:59:44 this one was meant mostly for the main dungeon branch 20:59:53 i'd consider making more sometime too 21:00:17 does the sound option work? 21:00:27 i haven't tried anything with sound yet 21:00:29 i just made the song 21:00:30 procedurally generated music 21:00:38 I was thinking you could search for the branch entry messages 21:00:40 aboleth: don't worry about that :) 21:00:48 is there any chance that this could get in the console version? 21:00:48 but I figure that's probably not how the system works 21:00:50 aboleth: we can do option sfor branch-specific music. 21:00:54 that's the one i play and i would love that 21:00:57 mmm procedurally-generated music 21:01:00 not sure about console, but i don't see whynot 21:01:13 if that could be put in console that would be sweet 21:01:38 esp. server play but I'm not holding my breath 21:01:44 :D that would be amazing 21:01:49 server not likely 21:02:15 :( 21:02:44 on-entering-branch would be doable with server 21:02:59 can server play sound, though? 21:03:03 no 21:03:05 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 21:03:08 no, you'd need an external thingy 21:03:10 right 21:03:24 rhetorical question bro don't make me feel stupid :( 21:03:38 that wasn't really a rhetorical question though 21:03:50 it didn't have the form of a rhetorical question 21:04:14 i remember discussing this with someone about doomrl on dgamelaunch 21:04:29 that you'd need a separate way to communicate "play this sounds" 21:05:33 i made it in milkytracker 21:05:48 the sounds came from both the old soundtracker disks and this one thing with a name like crystal 21:05:54 i'll look for what it's called again 21:06:19 FR: crawl radio station 21:06:47 ah no that's not what it's called 21:06:51 it's the fluid midi soundfont 21:07:01 only one instrument is from that though; the mandolin 21:08:43 i'm going to also send this to the person who seems to run that plugin 21:09:31 how could i find out what happens with this? 21:09:48 like what enne says and all 21:13:18 um 21:17:27 hang around here :) 21:17:56 enne will be back soon? 21:18:26 i guess in a worst case scenario i could just leave my pc on for a long time until i hear a response 21:18:27 enne drops in occasionally 21:18:55 !seen enne 21:18:55 I last saw enne at Thu Oct 28 01:34:17 2010 UTC (3d 44m 38s ago) joining the channel. 21:19:09 oh enne is here 21:19:14 aboleth: check the logs daily until enne next shows up 21:19:18 if i was a better programmer i'd make a patch for the music myself, but i'm only any good with python 21:19:20 TGWi: henzell isn't in ##c-o though 21:19:30 nobody cool is in ##c-o 21:19:40 unless they are; I've never been 21:19:56 because you're cool? 21:20:14 it would be preposterous to suggest otherwise 21:21:01 !learn add coolest_dev see {TGW} 21:21:01 coolest dev[1/1]: see {TGW} 22:08:21 -!- hashc has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 22:49:43 -!- ivan has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught me] 22:51:26 -!- ivan has joined ##crawl-dev 23:03:02 -!- Hehfiel has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:14:15 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:20:34 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev 23:30:55 -!- valrus has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:32:24 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev 23:56:21 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]