00:01:33 -!- hashc has joined ##crawl-dev
00:11:51 -!- Pacra has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:29:03 <Eronarn> FR: whenever we remove an item, add it as an unrand (amulet of res slow!)
01:55:36 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev
01:55:45 <galehar> hi
01:55:49 <sorear> Hi
01:56:00 <due> hi
01:57:56 <st_> good to see blademasters weren't included in the random current speed - 1 nerfs
02:07:57 -!- Guest61845 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:11:12 -!- Twilight has joined ##crawl-dev
02:11:38 -!- Twilight is now known as Guest82750
02:14:21 -!- Siber has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:14:31 -!- Siber has joined ##crawl-dev
02:18:50 -!- Kurper has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:28:14 -!- elliptic has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
02:29:38 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev
02:32:46 -!- upsy has joined ##crawl-dev
02:51:44 -!- monky has quit [Quit: hello]
03:02:03 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev
04:12:32 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev
04:22:35 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
04:29:49 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev
04:31:42 <galehar> kilobyte: when forget from book failed, were the spell mapped to Z?
04:35:30 <kilobyte> h
04:35:52 <kilobyte> I _think_ both spellbooks were randarts, but I'm not so sure about that.
04:36:31 <galehar> no, I mean the spell. was it mapped to the Z letter?
04:37:38 <kilobyte> no, 'h'
04:37:48 <galehar> ok
04:40:25 <galehar> I think I found the bug
04:40:32 <due> oh noes, a bug!
04:40:37 * due squishes it under shoe.
04:43:14 <kilobyte> hey, a save I copied due to a buggy silent spectre has such a randart book in the inventory, and the bug is reproductible
04:48:02 <felirx> galehar: got my mail?
04:48:11 <galehar> yes
04:48:49 <galehar> I removed set_transform() from CRTRegion::render
04:48:53 <galehar> as you suggested
04:49:00 <felirx> it didn't seem to break anything
04:49:14 <felirx> but the question still stands, why does it work on char select menus but not ingame
04:49:31 <galehar> I can't figure it out
04:50:06 <galehar> I pushed the change yesterday, and the windows build have been updated. So if it creates any problem, we should hear about it soon
04:51:59 <galehar> kilobyte: about Ash's preserve curse message, I had the message when I enchanted an uncursed armour. Somehow, I can't reproduce it anymore, but I noticed that in the enchant_armour function, do_uncurse_item is called without any check at the end
04:55:32 <kilobyte> yes, but there's a check inside that function in the previous if
04:55:39 <kilobyte> I added it like a week ago
04:56:39 <kilobyte> that's why I reverted your change -- this check is redundant now, I guess you didn't notice the previous if
04:57:01 -!- Mu_ has joined ##crawl-dev
04:57:47 <galehar> but we go in in the previous if only when the armour isn't affected but the enchant
04:58:58 <kilobyte> uhm, no: if (!item.cursed())
04:59:11 <kilobyte> we go there always if the item is not actually cursed
04:59:51 <kilobyte> in which case it marks it as known to be uncursed and bails out
05:00:16 <kilobyte> itemprop.cc line 545
05:01:14 <galehar> ok, got it
05:01:33 <galehar> I probably wasn't playing on the latest version then
05:08:00 <dpeg> Hi everyone
05:08:00 <Henzell> dpeg: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
05:08:09 <dpeg> !messages
05:08:09 <Henzell> (1/1) due said (3d 22h 40m 32s ago): Your wiki page suggests that gameplay and interface are more important than realism OR flavour. I posit that flavour is just as important, if it is good flavour as opposed "realistic" flavour for realism's sake.
05:08:40 <dpeg> due: I'd reckon gameplay > interface > flavour > realism
05:09:14 <MarvinPA> kilobyte: got a spider zig:25, the mp drain was indeed effective and pretty hard to avoid, i could just melee everything down with no mp though
05:09:20 <due> dpeg: :o!
05:09:24 <due> dpeg: get back, ye heathen!
05:09:28 <MarvinPA> clarity and rPois basically nullifies everything other than the mp drain
05:09:31 <dpeg> due: never been away :)
05:09:48 <dpeg> due: or did I say something wrong?
05:09:58 <due> dpeg: I'm teasing. :)
05:09:59 <bhaak> if flavor would be as important to me as gameplay, I wouldn't play a fantasy rl but a science fiction rl
05:10:00 <kilobyte> MarvinPA: your char has all skills at 27, and unlike most Zig runners uses Ash
05:10:19 <due> In my opinion, flavour is next to gameplay and interface, not less significant than themm.
05:10:20 <MarvinPA> yeah, it's hardly a good example
05:10:23 * dpeg feels teased, greased and appeased.
05:10:35 <st_> Ash will be a popular zig god
05:10:47 <kilobyte> I had to drop Ash for Makhleb to have any mana for example -- no channeling save for the unreliable ball
05:10:47 <MarvinPA> the ghost moths would definitely make it a more interesting challenge for more normal characters
05:11:25 <dpeg> due: the linear ordering is a bit shaky, but if forced to choose between smooth interface and cool flavour we always ended up with the interface so far, I think. (Think butchering, praying.)
05:11:31 <MarvinPA> but yeah, ash is great just for the conveniences in pan of zig/exit detection and so on
05:11:52 <dpeg> MarvinPA: what do you think about A in general?
05:11:54 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * ree4e7974c3e9 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/clua/ziggurat.lua: Give Zig Spider levels the full weight, they can actually be interesting.
05:12:00 <dpeg> kilobyte: :)
05:12:04 <kilobyte> Dwarf set might be nice too, as two of the monsters have Injury Mirror
05:12:53 <MarvinPA> i really like ash as a god to switch to later on for the passive abilities, this game i feel like the xp boost made my character too powerful too quickly though
05:12:59 <due> dpeg: Well, flavour is mostly textual in my opinion. :)
05:13:08 <kilobyte> for Marvin, it would be a pain to get all skills to max without Ash redirecting it the right way :p
05:13:46 <MarvinPA> yeah, although i used reskilling in a more reasonable way earlier on, to reskill tmut into air for tornado
05:14:26 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
05:14:31 <bhaak> due: maybe a native speaker feels different (I was surprised how big the difference of the immersion was when I had a mostly finished nethack-de to play) but for most non native speaker it's just funny words we had to look up in a dictionary and most of the connotations and associations of the words didn't get noticed
05:14:57 <due> bhaak: but *I* get them, and that's all I care about. :)
05:15:19 <bhaak> yes, that's not really an argument for not doing flavor, only for not letting dpeg do it :)
05:15:28 * due snorts.
05:15:48 <bhaak> but you probably won't get lots of support.
05:16:12 <dpeg> bhaak: jpeg and I were the ones who made Trog burn books.
05:16:15 <dpeg> No words needed.
05:17:05 <dpeg> Of course, there are supposedly still roguelikes in use where "flavour" means screenfuls of text.
05:17:15 <bhaak> although I can feel your pain somewhat. I still cringe when I see "corpse" used in nethack-de on anything from plants to animals to humanoids and human beings
05:17:20 <kilobyte> it's a bit weird that Troggies lug around a stack of books to use as grenades in emergencies
05:18:00 <dpeg> kilobyte: yes, that wasn't really planned. From time to time I rally for making books of the "throws awkwardly" type, but there's always someone to intercept me.
05:18:23 <bhaak> how nethackish of Trog
05:18:31 <dpeg> bhaak: ?
05:18:38 <dpeg> Ever thrown a book?
05:18:41 <kilobyte> you already do throw them awkwardly -- they make 0 (or near that) damage but still go to the right spot
05:18:52 <kilobyte> and usually the right spot is just next to you
05:19:21 <sorear> bhaak: how are corpses related to -de?
05:19:23 <dpeg> kilobyte: no no, if they properly throw awkwardly, they'd fly just a single square (which is fine with me).
05:19:29 <kilobyte> if an enemy passes through the fire, they get damaged just once, but if they spend every turn fighting you in the cloud, that's a major factor even in late midgame
05:19:41 <bhaak> dpeg: no, but from kilobyte's message I supposed you could throw them, hit a monster and then ignite them?
05:20:17 <dpeg> bhaak: yes. My plan was that a Troggie would drop books to incite at the right time, but players actually throw them.
05:20:21 <kilobyte> even dropping them, taking a step back and igniting wouldn't waste an extra turn
05:20:31 <dpeg> kilobyte: yes, I am fine with that application
05:20:36 <dpeg> I find the throwing a bit cheesy but it'
05:20:44 <dpeg> s much better than not burning books at all, of course
05:20:56 <bhaak> dpeg: but using books that way is rather nethackish, IMO
05:21:09 <dpeg> I don't.
05:21:14 <dpeg> There is nothing hidden about it.
05:21:57 <bhaak> sorear: the german word for "corpse" I used, "Kadaver", is not really fit for human beings and plants. Also the english word "corpse" doesn't really fit for the whole range of dead beings in nethack.
05:23:01 <bhaak> dpeg: it doesn't need to be hidden. Creative and unusual usage and interaction of items. It's similar to throwing a potion of acid at monster over a fountain to get a water-acid explosion if the monster doesn't get hit directly
05:23:21 <dpeg> bhaak: I apologise that we have one instance of creative and unusual item use :P
05:23:53 <bhaak> yes, you should! if players learn about that they will go looking for other creative and unusual ways to use items!
05:23:57 <dpeg> Usually someone stops me in my track just by mumbling "Nethack", but I wouldn't let go of book burnination.
05:24:17 <dpeg> bhaak: They will ask "which god allows me to burn plants" :)
05:24:28 <dpeg> or scrolls etc.
05:25:38 <bhaak> yeah, why don't plants burn! aren't there dead/brown trees somewhere? they should burn like cinder!
05:25:55 <kilobyte> there's an issue: the Dwarf monster set includes berserkers which will currently burn books -- which form a good percentage of Zig loot
05:26:14 <kilobyte> bhaak: trees can be ignited, bushes are vulnerable to fire
05:26:15 <bhaak> "killed by a forest fire" how cool would that be
05:26:33 <due> bhaak: Hot, I think.
05:26:48 <kilobyte> bhaak: already implemented (not with that message, though)
05:26:49 <dpeg> kilobyte: that's awesome!
05:27:07 <dpeg> (that dwarves burn the books in Zig, that is)
05:27:15 <bhaak> swell, I can live out my pyromaniacal desires
05:27:25 <st_> do they burn stuff when they are out of LOS?
05:27:54 <kilobyte> I mean, we'd need then to jelly-protect them, and that could make firestorm-happy players pause
05:28:06 <MarvinPA> do the dwarf berserkers still have BiA?
05:28:07 <kilobyte> which is not what we want with Injury Mirror :p
05:28:17 <kilobyte> they do
05:28:21 <MarvinPA> ugh
05:28:40 <MarvinPA> i suppose it's fine to have a ridiculously unbalanced monster set if they're just for zigs, though
05:28:41 <dpeg> cannot go wrong with berserk opposition
05:28:42 <MarvinPA> :P
05:29:28 <dpeg> I am typing these lines in a fit of madness, so why can't Crawl's populace be just a little mad as well?
05:29:31 <kilobyte> actually, a single berserker is easier than a demonologist
05:29:44 <MarvinPA> you can abjure 1s
05:29:53 <kilobyte> the beauty of Zigs is that you meet a squad of them at once
05:29:53 <dpeg> yes, the hope is that the combination of monsters makes matters interesting
05:29:59 <dpeg> yeah
05:30:10 <st_> will dwarf hall zig levels have war dogs
05:30:21 <dpeg> st_: would that matter?
05:30:27 <kilobyte> st_: the current set of monsters in Dwarf makes no sense
05:30:30 <st_> has to be true to the branch imo
05:30:31 <dpeg> +1
05:30:39 <kilobyte> orange rats?  war dogs?  WTH?
05:30:39 <MarvinPA> the dwarf monster set is not great, yeah
05:31:38 <kilobyte> needs to be sanitized regardless of whether the branch will end up a 1-level one, a portal vault or nothing but a Zig set
05:32:39 <kilobyte> I'd axe anything but dwarves, wraiths and giants, perhaps trolls.
05:34:19 <kilobyte> not sure about wraiths either
05:34:57 <kilobyte> these fit blue_anna's "tomb of fallen heroes" theme, but not really an actual place where dwarves live
05:35:05 <kilobyte> and we have too many tombs already
05:35:45 <MarvinPA> the deep dwarf unborn are the worst, i'd say
05:36:03 <MarvinPA> tormentors in a branch full of living, non-regenerating dwarves
05:36:23 <st_> @?? deep dwarf unborn
05:36:23 <Gretell> deep dwarf unborn (16q) | Speed: 10 | HD: 11 | Health: 63-90 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 8 | Flags: 07undead, evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(117), 02cold, 03poison | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 1570 | Sp: torment symbol, dispel undead (3d19), mirror damage, animate dead, haunt.
05:36:46 <st_> @?? deep dwarf necromancer
05:36:47 <Gretell> deep dwarf necromancer (06q) | Speed: 10 | HD: 7 | Health: 25-52 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Damage: 8 | Flags: evil, spellcaster | Res: 06magic(56) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 284 | Sp: pain (d11), dispel undead (3d14), animate dead, vampiric draining.
05:38:31 <kilobyte> oh, _torment_??
05:38:41 <MarvinPA> yep! :P
05:38:42 <kilobyte> now that's probably indeed broken
05:39:09 <kilobyte> agony might be a better fit, though
05:39:09 <st_> haunt seems like it could be given to something else
05:39:21 <MarvinPA> doesn't monster agony just turn into torment?
05:39:40 <kilobyte> for ghosts
05:39:44 <MarvinPA> oh ok
05:39:45 <due> MarvinPA: for... ghosts.
05:39:49 <kilobyte> since IIRC agony is not a monster spell
05:39:56 <MarvinPA> well i don't know any monsters that cast agony
05:39:57 <MarvinPA> right
05:40:53 <due> It's easily implemented.
05:42:05 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev
05:42:38 <st_> getting slowed while hasted is basically nothing now, you spend a few turns at normal and then return to haste
05:43:25 <st_> it only matters in tomb but deathcurse slow used to be really bad
05:49:08 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
05:50:37 <Gretell> MarvinPA (L27 DrIE) ASSERT(slot != NUM_MONSTER_SLOTS) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 1379 failed. (Zig:23)
05:50:42 <MarvinPA> uh oh
05:52:38 -!- MarvinPA|2 has joined ##crawl-dev
05:55:17 <kilobyte> that merfolk has a staff of energy in his alt slot
05:55:17 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
05:55:24 <kilobyte> alt weapon
05:56:11 <MarvinPA|2> wow, monster rod/staff usage introduced a lot of crashes :P
05:56:17 -!- MarvinPA|2 is now known as MarvinPA
05:57:16 <MarvinPA> shall i put the crash dump on mantis?
06:03:45 <Gretell> MarvinPA (L27 DrIE)  (Zig:25)
06:03:49 <MarvinPA> aah
06:03:57 <MarvinPA> crashes are fun
06:04:19 <MarvinPA> !lm . -log
06:04:19 <Sequell> 9057. MarvinPA, XL27 DrIE, T:314430 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/MarvinPA/crash-MarvinPA-20101122-120344.txt
06:07:55 <Ashenzari> Crash when activating reskilling (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2857) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
06:07:55 <Ashenzari> Crash in zig (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2856) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
06:08:34 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev
06:24:26 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * rfb65c3d0f604 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Return a proper mslot for staves.
06:24:37 <CIA-54> 03kilobyte * r25240fee3085 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-stuff.cc: Fix monsters throwing unthrowable weapons if for some reason they have two.
06:25:10 -!- syllogism has joined ##crawl-dev
06:26:53 -!- Vandal has joined ##crawl-dev
06:27:16 -!- TGWi has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:37:28 <galehar> MarvinPA: is it possible to get the save file from your crash?
06:38:22 <MarvinPA> yeah, i can make a backup, i haven't been able to reproduce it afterwards though
06:38:34 <MarvinPA> reskilling has been working since then
06:40:09 <MarvinPA> added it to the mantis report, sorry i don't really have any good repro steps
06:40:30 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
06:40:42 <MarvinPA> if it happens again i'll note down exactly how
06:43:01 <galehar> ok, I'll look at it. thanks
06:47:11 <kilobyte> galehar: the only unguarded division in that function is by (you.skill_points[fsk] - you.ct_skill_points[fsk])
06:58:27 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
06:59:18 <galehar> yes, but transfer_skill_points shouldn't even have been called at this point. It is called only when you select the second skill.
07:00:07 <kilobyte> right, the crash was in that function, though
07:01:24 <galehar> yes, I'll put some safety there, but it is still strange
07:01:55 <galehar> MarvinPA: you're sure it crashed immediately after pressing b? You didn't even see the menu for selecting the first skill?
07:02:25 <MarvinPA> hmm, sorry yeah - i did see the menu
07:02:31 <MarvinPA> i don't think i selected any skills though
07:03:23 <kilobyte> !lm MarvinPA type=crash -tv
07:03:23 <Sequell> 12. MarvinPA, XL27 DrIE, T:314430 (milestone) requested for FooTV.
07:03:42 <galehar> can't watch footv from work :(
07:03:59 <galehar> can you tell me what happened exactly?
07:04:37 <MarvinPA> right, i just pressed ab, the menu came up then it crashed
07:05:14 <MarvinPA> after a very short amount of time, no first skill was selected
07:05:26 <galehar> that's weird
07:05:36 -!- Noom has joined ##crawl-dev
07:05:43 <kilobyte> there was a frame asking for the source list, the next frame is clearing the screen, then the end
07:07:12 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev
07:18:24 <galehar> kilobyte: it shouldn't be possible for (you.skill_points[fsk] - you.ct_skill_points[fsk]) to be null. I'll put an assert to avoid a crash in this case. I checked the values in Marvin's save file and they are ok. I don't understand what happened.
07:21:20 <kilobyte> I don't know how it got to that function if you say it shouldn't be there... but you don't use floats there and, beautifully named "floating point exception" can happen only then or for division by 0 (or 1<<31 / -1, I think), so it would be the only division that can possibly be by zero
07:23:59 -!- Pacra has joined ##crawl-dev
08:09:52 <galehar> felirx: Would it be hard to add multicolour support to TextItem? Or should I dynamically create and delete TextItem objects when switching between progress and aptitude?
08:13:45 <felirx> it should read parsed texts
08:13:55 <felirx> don't think I ever got around to implementing that though
08:14:08 <felirx> iirc basicly you swap the std::string for a formatted_string
08:14:12 <felirx> and display that instead
08:14:36 <galehar> comment in menu.h: Basic Item with std::string unformatted text that can be selected
08:14:48 <galehar> but I'll try anyway :)
08:15:00 <felirx> you can try <yellow></yellow>
08:15:09 <felirx> not sure if it works straight away on both tiles and console
08:28:07 -!- valrus has joined ##crawl-dev
08:38:17 <galehar> felirx: it doesn't work. And seeing the TextItem::render function, I'm not surprised
08:40:12 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:42:08 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev
08:57:40 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
09:14:55 <Eronarn> g'morning
09:18:35 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: Page closed]
09:41:23 <dpeg> Hi
09:41:54 <Eronarn> dpeg: recite! :D
09:45:02 <dpeg> Eronarn: yes, saw the patch. Not much time for Crawl lately, but I should really comment there.
09:48:49 <Eronarn> dpeg: even just a comment on the flavour/direction would be helpful - i personally like the idea of Zin becoming a more wrathful god, but some people preferred recite being a 'non-magical' ability with strictly effects based on confusing/etc. enemies with your words
09:52:13 <dpeg> I didn
09:52:28 <dpeg> t make up my mind on that, but I will
09:54:39 <Eronarn> sure; no hard feelings if the patch is not usable - i coded it in a fit of frustration after seeing how bad the current ability was, so hardly a consensus thing
09:58:00 <dpeg> it is good to see thought go into Zin
09:58:09 <dpeg> I guess I'll assign to dolorous to get his opinion, too
09:58:36 <dpeg> but gods are clearly flexible and if we want to keep Recite, then changes are in order
10:14:49 <Eronarn> dpeg: oh, hey - I was inspired wrt the 'undead reformist' god.
10:15:10 <Eronarn> TSO = gold = sun
10:15:13 <Eronarn> zin = silver = stars
10:15:19 <Eronarn> ely = marble = moon
10:15:36 <Eronarn> so, a holy god of the night sky
10:15:57 <Eronarn> or of the places where the night sky's light cannot reach, etc.
10:16:21 <dpeg> interesting!
10:16:45 <dpeg> Ely, the healing moon :)
10:16:48 <Eronarn> this would not necessarily be 'the' thief god, but would be a stealth god
10:17:47 <dpeg> I recall that the undead reformist god was lacking in design... only the final power seemed clear.
10:18:53 <Eronarn> i think stealth + undead effects would be interesting, because undead are something stabby/stealthy characters often have issues with
10:19:20 <Eronarn> even for characters who are not themselves undead, they could have undead-related effects
10:19:50 <Eronarn> like unintelligent undead being neutral to them unless one gets too close
10:20:27 <Eronarn> definitely not good to go, but i think there is room there for a god
10:31:14 <dpeg> would the god be exclusively for undead?
10:31:27 <dpeg> (sorry for delay, colleagues talking here)
10:42:20 <Eronarn> i don't think we want a god exclusively for undead: there are only a handful of undead races, and this will be just one god among many for them
10:42:46 <Eronarn> rather, i think we want a god that has some set of core features, and then if you are undead, either adds some more or swaps some different ones in
10:43:37 <dpeg> yes, I agree
10:43:46 <dpeg> (I am not sure what the original ideas was)
10:44:26 <Eronarn> i don't recall ever seeing a fleshed out proposal for such a god, just a notion that it would be cool to have (which i agree with)
10:46:37 <dpeg> Eronarn: there was something... including a list of powers
10:50:50 -!- jld has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
10:52:20 <OG17> I didn't like how that god revolves around removing basic racial uniqueness.  Flavor's also bad, as it's hard to see tso etc suddenly welcoming a mummy just because some other god gave them a thumbs-up.  "Undead" is a very innate property and zin isn't going to give you a pass just because you're a nice guy
10:52:45 <OG17> for here, really don't think gods should work differently for different races
10:54:54 <dpeg> To the contrary, I like the idea that (game) rules can be broken.... by gods.
10:55:16 <Eronarn> OG17: i think that generally it's a bad idea, but there is room for it - see okawaru only granting gifts that you can actually wear/use
10:55:54 <dpeg> OG17: And the undead is not a "nice guy", he has proven his worth as a tool for the common purpose.
10:55:55 <Eronarn> that works so much better than the alternative that people don't even consider it 'working differently'
10:56:02 <OG17> how is "every race gets gifts that it can use" treating races differently
10:56:28 <OG17> and the common purpose is partly wiping out undead, good gods don't seem this open-minded at all
10:56:48 <Eronarn> OG17: 'every race gets X that it can use' is not true much of elsewhere in the game where racial restrictions exist
10:56:53 <dpeg> OG17: and if an undead wants to participate, where's the problem?
10:56:54 <Eronarn> again, this is somewhere that it works well
10:56:59 <Eronarn> and is thus mostly invisible
10:57:00 <dpeg> The fifth colonne is not a new invention.
10:57:12 <dpeg> colon, probably
10:57:50 <Eronarn> column
10:58:00 <OG17> good gods don't like undead and demons, this is pretty definitive
10:58:23 <OG17> not sure what you're saying eronarn, that's just how acquirement works
10:58:26 <OG17> for everyone
10:58:52 <dpeg> Eronarn: thanks!
11:00:41 <dpeg> OG17: Everyone is entitled to an opinion how gods should tick, but I don't see a problem with a good god enlisting the undead subversion.
11:01:05 <Eronarn> OG17: yes, and by extension, it is how oka works. compare: mummies being able to draw hunger-related nemelex cards (no adjustment is made there)
11:01:19 <OG17> basically I don't get why there'd a god that makes undead like everyone else, it's like having a god that turns non-trolls into trolls
11:01:30 <Eronarn> trog
11:01:36 <OG17> what about trog
11:01:42 <OG17> also what about cards
11:03:04 <dpeg> OG17: the real question is: Would you like to see the odd Ghoul of Zin? Several players would (me included).
11:03:10 <OG17> and "subversion" seems out of character to me, good gods don't appear to be against undead individually but against them because they're undead
11:03:16 <OG17> no, that completely flies against zin flavor
11:03:32 <OG17> ghouls are a perversion of form, etc
11:03:38 <OG17> no trial is going to change that
11:04:07 <Eronarn> i do agree with that - i would not want to see the existing good gods have undead followers
11:04:18 <Eronarn> however, i think there is enough room for a good god that permits undead followers
11:04:31 <OG17> what's the point of having it be a good god, then?
11:04:49 <OG17> and why would the others stay allied with him
11:05:25 <Eronarn> OG17: flavor, mechanics - and because they grudgingly tolerate such a thing, for the same reason that TSO doesn't smite zin stabbers or poisoners
11:05:32 <dpeg> It's a ghoul who has undergone a purification ritual.
11:05:56 <OG17> it's still a ghoul, though
11:06:45 <Siber> DSPA :(
11:06:55 <OG17> I sort of feel like anti-undead anti-demon is a bigger issue than the individual god's "no poison" "no intelligent corpses" etc but I guess you could argue otherwise
11:07:02 <OG17> feels pretty fundamental to me
11:07:24 <dpeg> Siber: we need more context!
11:07:51 <OG17> good gods are defined by being against "evil" and that's undead and demons
11:07:51 <Siber> Oh, the conversation just reminded me of my long standing desire to play a demonspawn paladin.
11:07:56 <OG17> (orange brains)
11:07:56 <dpeg> ah :)
11:08:08 <Siber> Favorite class+favorite race
11:08:33 -!- jld has joined ##crawl-dev
11:09:33 <dpeg> OG17: so while all good gods accept that the generic demon/devil is evil and should be killed on sight, why do you assume they're so devoid of subtlety as to not acknowledge the existence of useful/purified/etc undead?
11:10:17 <Eronarn> OG17: only one of the three good gods even likes undead kills
11:10:37 <Eronarn> zin likes unclean kills, and non-insubstantial undead are unclean, but he doesn't care about ghosts
11:10:46 <OG17> there's not much subtle about good gods to begin with
11:11:00 <dpeg> OG17: it's our game, we can change any aspect
11:11:01 <Eronarn> heck, doesn't ely pacification work on undead?
11:11:05 <dpeg> Eronarn: yes
11:11:12 <OG17> eronarn, yes, I don't really agree with that in its entirety though
11:11:26 <OG17> dpeg you can do whatever you want obviously, I think it's good as it is
11:11:31 <Eronarn> OG17: so now you're arguing from 'i want the good gods to be like' rather than 'the good gods are like'
11:11:39 <OG17> and that this isn't valuable enough to change it for it
11:11:56 <OG17> no, I'm saying that the current piety mechanics don't strictly match the flavor
11:12:06 <dpeg> I never rallied for adding the undead reformist god. But I like what it'd bring: different flavour to the good/evil thing, and some odd combos.
11:12:50 <Siber> My take on it is if the player wants to play his redeemed undead/demon/whatever, unless theres a compelling mechanical reason not to, to an extent what the designers wanted should flex a bit to allow what the players wanted. But that's just little old me
11:12:54 <OG17> odd combos aren't notable because they're odd, they're less notable because they're removing real differences
11:13:15 <OG17> if "evil" races can't worship good gods, but then they can, that's not adding something to the game
11:14:01 <dpeg> OG17: I don't think you understand what the god is about.
11:14:07 <OG17> naturally
11:14:20 <dpeg> Nobody talks about Ghouls starting worshipping Zin at the ET.
11:14:44 <OG17> nobody has said that, yes
11:15:09 <dpeg> "not adding something to the game"
11:15:54 <OG17> yes?
11:17:59 -!- hashc has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:18:19 <OG17> you could add a god that would eventually let you cast spells under trog, and that character would certainly be "odd" under current standards, but it's removing what makes trog trog
11:19:03 <dpeg> I am not responsible for your lack of fantasy.
11:24:43 -!- eith has joined ##crawl-dev
11:25:47 <Eronarn> would anyone be opposed to invisibility no longer overriding corona if it's recast / corona having a normal duration on invis creatures? just: if you are glowing, you cannot be invisible, period (as this is the way it works with player glow)
11:28:55 <dpeg> Eronarn: including gray glow?
11:29:11 <Eronarn> dpeg: no, yellow+. corona has no grey equivalent
11:29:12 <dpeg> ah, monsters only
11:29:17 <dpeg> fine by me
11:29:51 <dpeg> Eronarn: this would be a Corona boost?
11:30:15 <Eronarn> yes, but corona is a resisted spell, so it's not like everyone would pick it up
11:30:40 <dpeg> sure sure
11:33:48 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev
11:35:26 -!- Keskitalo has joined ##crawl-dev
11:35:34 <Keskitalo> Good evening!
11:36:06 <dpeg> Hi Eino!
11:36:21 <dpeg> Keskitalo: You've been active on Mantis!
11:36:47 <Keskitalo> hi dpeg! Yeah, it took me only a month to reply to that boring beetle patch!
11:37:05 <dpeg> :)
11:37:15 <dpeg> How's the family?
11:38:09 <Keskitalo> Good, thanks, just had one final ultrasound today and everything looked good.
11:38:25 <Keskitalo> The due date is in about five weeks.
11:38:26 <dpeg> Awesome. What's the expected date?
11:38:29 <dpeg> ah :)
11:39:26 <Keskitalo> I read through the commits, Tornado sounds interesting. :)
11:39:42 <dpeg> Keskitalo: Ash has been causing ... a little controversy :)
11:40:45 <Keskitalo> Mostly on IRC? I haven't seen it
11:41:43 <dpeg> Keskitalo: mostly. But the wiki page was also close to overloaded.
11:41:59 <Keskitalo> Ah, I haven't been following it it seems.
11:42:16 <dpeg> I think Ash is decent right now: plays differently, does useful things. Can be improved upon.
11:42:32 <dpeg> Keskitalo: I have tae kwon do in 20 minutes, gotta go :(
11:44:35 <dpeg> Keskitalo: we also have new draconians, a bunch of good interface stuff, and there's a Recite overhaul patched (and invented!) by Eronarn.
11:44:39 <Keskitalo> I played a cloud mage when Scrying allowed smite targetting, that was funny (and unbearably scummy, of course).
11:45:06 <dpeg> Keskitalo: :P Feeling megalomaniac?
11:45:45 <dpeg> Later!
11:45:52 <Keskitalo> See ya!
11:45:56 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: perkele, nights, giup]
11:46:19 <Keskitalo> I have a month-old DrFE/Ash going too, too bad I got Pale which doesn't have a new breath weapon. But it survived to midgame nicely, so they probably are better now overall.
11:46:33 <Keskitalo> Too bad I can't use my Fire apt to cast Dragon From. :P
11:46:42 <Keskitalo> s/apt/skill
11:46:53 <Eronarn> oh cool, i didn't get a 'berserk is running out' message for some reason
11:47:46 <Keskitalo> Eronarn: Recite overhaul sounds exciting, I don't have the time to look at it but, sounds good already :)
11:48:53 <Eronarn> Keskitalo: thanks :) it is a pretty significant departure from existing, but i think that's a good thing considering zin's current likeability
11:56:57 <Keskitalo> Overpowered (bug) current Recite that was in for a while before 0.7 was quite popular, so I think it could be fixed with just numbers. But, a good overhaul would of course be just as good. (And probably more interesting from older players' point of view)
12:09:06 <OG17> "power of words and faith" is a lot more flavorful than "zin tears stuff up for you" but it could probably be preserved by replacing that stuff with comparable "mundane" effects, eg pillar of salt becomes permanent paralysis or whatever
12:10:08 <OG17> though I'd also prefer making the old recite useful instead
12:17:01 <Eronarn> OG17: i disagree; in a game where you generally call down gods directly, i don't think just talking at people is particularly good flavor for an ability
12:17:20 <OG17> I do because it's the only one with that flavor
12:17:31 <OG17> this is like reciting to cast minor destruction
12:18:56 <OG17> being a missionary of zin was the big flavor selling point to me
12:19:18 <OG17> (even if recite was useless)
12:19:34 <st_> honestly I think Zin should just become an endgame god, his conducts are so annoying in the early/mid, in the endgame they don't matter and his passive stuff is actually useful there
12:19:34 <Eronarn> you'll still convert people, you'll just also have tools against the unclean, chaotic, etc.
12:19:48 <Eronarn> st_: i don't think we should have 'endgame gods'
12:20:02 <OG17> unclean chaotic etc should just be affected by your preaching, as in old recite
12:20:10 <OG17> also yes but good luck convincing anyone else of that
12:20:31 <Eronarn> OG17: the problem is that the majority of unclean/chaotic/etc. enemies you encounter are unintelligent
12:21:07 <OG17> maybe unclean but there's not many unclean monsters to begin with
12:21:28 <Eronarn> also for as much as 'new recite = reciting to cast minor destruction'
12:21:33 <OG17> also don't think that's a problem
12:21:35 <Eronarn> old recite = reciting to cast enchantments
12:21:57 <OG17> they were flavored as being the power of your words, not the power of a god
12:22:04 <OG17> you can't do that with smiting etc
12:23:52 <OG17> literal smiting I mean, you could have enemies spasm/seizure or whatever and have the same damaging effect
12:24:11 <st_> Zin's glow rules are confusing and obscure and should be fixed also
12:24:13 <Eronarn> OG17: the smiting only kicks in on things that zin hates; against everything he doesn't care about it's still mundane
12:24:14 <OG17> doesn't work for animals but it shouldn't in the first place
12:24:32 <OG17> mundane across the board is better
12:24:43 <OG17> zin's rules are kind of confusing in the first place I think
12:25:01 <OG17> as far as what's unclean and not
12:25:06 <Eronarn> i semi-rewrote those
12:25:14 <Eronarn> i'm still using the existing functions but also new stuff
12:27:21 <Eronarn> with mine you're treated as chaotic if you're: yiuf/psyche/gastronok; are an actual spellcaster with a chaotic spell; are innately chaotic (stuff harmed by silver - fake spellcaster with a chaotic spell, an ugly thing, tiamat, have a mutate attack...); worship a chaotic god
12:28:16 <OG17> also when you say unintelligent do you mean non-humanoid or just like plant-level
12:28:17 <Eronarn> unclean if you have an unclean spell, eat the dead, are a walking corpse, have vampiric/disease/hunger/rot/steal/steal food brands
12:28:39 <Eronarn> (but excepting things that are truly natural disease-causers)
12:28:55 <Zao> http://pizzarules.com/367 <- now those are nice glyphs for Crawl food. There's even a pizza in there.
12:28:55 <OG17> are komodo dragons cool then?
12:28:57 <Eronarn> yes
12:28:59 <OG17> or gila monsters, whichever
12:29:04 <Eronarn> //Sanity check: if a monster is 'really' natural, don't consider it impure.
12:29:07 <Eronarn> if (mons_intel(mon) < I_NORMAL && (holiness == MH_NATURAL || holiness == MH_PLANT)
12:29:10 <Eronarn> && mon->type != MONS_UGLY_THING && mon->type != MONS_UGLY_THING  && mon->type != MONS_DEATH_DRAKE)
12:29:13 <Eronarn> eligibility[RECITE_IMPURE] = 0;
12:29:29 <Eronarn> ugly things and death drakes, like komodo dragons, are natural animal intelligence creatures
12:29:44 <Eronarn> (natural: it doesn't actually mean much when you stop and think about it)
12:30:28 -!- monky has joined ##crawl-dev
12:30:29 <OG17> if zin's against spreading sickness and disease I don't think he should care if you're doing it naturally or not
12:30:45 <OG17> but then zin is sort of conflicted between "form" and "catholic cleanliness/sin" to begin with
12:31:00 <Eronarn> i think zin shouldn't want you eating the flesh of unclean animals but he probably shouldn't care enough to do anything to them or like it when you kill them
12:32:11 <Eronarn> as a general rule he should only care about the stuff he cares about if it's A) an intelligent creature choosing to sin B) something unnatural C) both
12:34:16 <OG17> I think it's mechanically better if he's just against all "sinners" and it works just as well with flavor
12:34:28 <OG17> avoids people wondering why death drakes etc are cool
12:35:17 <Eronarn> i think it's a pretty simple rule: 'does not care about natural beasts'
12:35:31 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev
12:35:35 <Eronarn> there are only a handful of monsters this applies to anyways
12:35:51 <OG17> also don't think that "form" would supercede "sin" here but I might be repeating myself
12:35:52 <OG17> yes
12:35:59 <Eronarn> komodo dragons, mosquitos, leeches, death drakes, ugly things are iirc the only natural things with such attacks
12:37:14 -!- Kurper has joined ##crawl-dev
12:37:24 <OG17> ugly things are included under chaotic though, right?
12:37:47 <OG17> yes
12:37:47 <Eronarn> yes but they can also be impure because purple ones sick / rot
12:38:01 <OG17> oh I guess this matters with your specific recitations
12:38:44 <Eronarn> the existing zin behaviors have a weird split
12:38:49 <Eronarn> is_chaotic actually means is_innately_chaotic
12:38:56 <Eronarn> is_unclean is 'unclean, or chaotic but not innately chaotic'
12:39:31 <Eronarn> mine splits them more naturally so that priests of chaotic gods don't end up classified as unclean but not chaotic
12:39:52 <Eronarn> it also adds some new uncleanliness conducts (vampiricism, eating corpses)
12:40:11 -!- Keskitalo has quit [Quit: leaving]
12:40:52 <OG17> what chaotic priests are there besides dissolution?
12:42:54 <Eronarn> OG17: royal jelly isn't a priest but is a worshiper of jiyva, i think
12:43:07 <Eronarn> // Angels (other than Mennas) and Daevas belong to TSO, but 1 out of
12:43:08 <Eronarn> // 7 in the Abyss are adopted by Xom.
12:43:19 <Eronarn> // 6 out of 7 demons in the Abyss belong to Lugonu.
12:43:23 <Eronarn> weird!!!
12:43:34 <monky> xom can summon angels and daevas too
12:43:52 <Eronarn> also 1 out of 7 orcs are atheists
12:44:47 <OG17> all jellies are worshippers of jiyva sort of, not sure how that's actually supposed to work
12:46:43 <Eronarn> OG17: you can have a god without being a priest
12:47:19 <OG17> is it just dissolution then?
12:47:24 <Eronarn> i think so
12:47:47 <Eronarn> dis = priest + jiyva; trj = not priest, jiyva; jellies = neither
12:47:59 <Eronarn> except i think if you worship jiyva they get converted
12:48:03 <Eronarn> or if you get gifted by jiyva
12:48:36 <Eronarn> yep
12:48:39 <Eronarn> mons_make_god_gift(slime, GOD_JIYVA);
12:48:46 <Eronarn> in jiyva_convert_slime
12:49:00 <Eronarn> which is pretty flavorful i guess!
12:50:04 <OG17> I'd think they'd be followers regardless of what you're doing though I guess it's all hidden anyway
12:50:18 <OG17> jellies aren't chaotic in any sense, are they?
12:50:25 <OG17> as in formless
12:54:41 -!- eith has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
12:56:08 <Eronarn> right now i'm not handling formlessness as part of either chaoticness or uncleanliness
12:56:48 <Eronarn> as for jiyva: i guess the idea is that since jiyva is a mostly dead god, only a few slimes follow it, unless the player decides to convert and spread the ooziness
12:57:35 <Eronarn> maybe jellies spawned alongside jiyva altars should be god=jiyva though
12:57:41 <Eronarn> in the dungeon ones, and on slime 6
12:59:19 <OG17> I thought the idea was that normal jellies are too dumb/unimportant enough to keep jiyva going
12:59:31 <OG17> but that's all really hazy to begin with
13:18:59 <CIA-54> 03galehar * re27ffd12eb27 10/crawl-ref/source/ (spl-book.cc spl-util.cc spl-util.h): Don't destroy the spellbook if forgetting the spell failed
13:19:00 <CIA-54> 03galehar * r3b5b081490dc 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-util.cc: Fix forget from book
13:19:02 <CIA-54> 03galehar * r0651fb252e61 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Add 2 asserts to transfer_skill_points()
13:22:45 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev
13:57:52 -!- TGWi has joined ##crawl-dev
14:01:40 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Quit: Computer went to sleep]
14:06:30 <Kurper> ??bug
14:06:31 <Henzell> bug[1/2]: To report bugs, go to: http://crawl.develz.org/mantis/main_page.php
14:07:26 -!- Textmode has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
14:10:44 <Ashenzari> Meaningless/wrong corrosion resistance indicator for artifacts (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2858) by kurper
14:15:10 <TGWi> Eronarn: you mentioned corona and forgot about haste/slowing?
14:15:32 <TGWi> how slowed monsters can just cast haste twice and be like "what's a slow"
14:24:24 -!- Pseudonut has joined ##crawl-dev
14:29:11 -!- Noom has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
14:32:55 -!- Textmode has joined ##crawl-dev
14:33:05 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:35:23 -!- Pseudonut has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
14:36:32 <Eronarn> TGWi: that could maybe use look at too yes
14:36:57 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev
14:40:38 <Eronarn> corona is particularly bad though, it wears off of invisible monsters in like 3 turns
14:40:43 <Eronarn> if they don't cast invis first
14:51:23 -!- galehar has joined ##crawl-dev
14:56:11 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev
14:57:39 <dpeg> evenings
14:59:20 <galehar> hi
14:59:51 -!- syllogism has quit []
15:13:49 <Gretell> airman (L27 MuAE) ASSERT(slot != NUM_MONSTER_SLOTS) in 'mon-act.cc' at line 1379 failed. (Zig:23)
15:15:51 <monky> autoexplore opens the zoo vault with all the bears and wolves and griffontypes inside; zoo vault should probably use a warning-scrawled gate or somesuch
15:17:27 <dpeg> I agree. Would you file that? If there are more vaults like this, please mention them too :)
15:26:22 -!- upsy has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:28:01 <dpeg> galehar: do you have a moment?
15:28:23 <dpeg> monky: thank you!
15:30:59 <galehar> dpeg: sure
15:31:08 <galehar> what about?
15:31:12 <Ashenzari> autoexplore opens lemuel_bear_cage (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2859) by MrMisterMonkey
15:36:14 <dpeg> galehar: My sister implemented the advanced . feature for my birthday... which was awesome (it was one of the last bits she did for Crawl... although she expressed her love for the gold god just this weekend).
15:36:35 <dpeg> But there is some polish missing. It's not much, yet I cannot do it on my own (I looked into it).
15:37:02 <galehar> what is it?
15:37:26 <galehar> and happy birthday! :)
15:37:36 <dpeg> oh, it was in April :)
15:37:42 <galehar> lol
15:37:45 -!- valrus_ has joined ##crawl-dev
15:38:26 <dpeg> The . feature was invented by zelgadis (Matthew): when you (de)select in pickup/drop mode, you can press '.' to select the next one. This is awesome for non-touch typers like me who don't have to look at the keyboard all the time anymore.
15:39:07 <dpeg> It saves quite a bit of keyboard-screen focus switching. But it could be improved upon by having another key that moves the (invisible) cursor one line lower without selection.
15:39:33 <galehar> it alreaday has: '
15:39:35 <dpeg> In fact, Johanna coded this one, it's on ' now. (On standard US keyboards, ' and . are next to each other, I think.)
15:39:57 <galehar> yeah, I use this featue
15:40:06 <dpeg> Yes. What remains is the question of the cursor: Johanna coded one, and it was on by default. Of course, many players didn't like it, and Robert disabled it again.
15:40:22 <galehar> ok, I remember that
15:40:38 <dpeg> All of this is very clumsy, and the best solution occurred to me only much later: we disable the cursor by default, but whenever the player uses one of the ' or . commands, we show it immediately.
15:40:52 <dpeg> galehar: Could you? :)
15:40:54 <galehar> hmm, clever
15:41:03 <galehar> sure
15:41:10 <dpeg> I tried, but Crawl's code is just too complex for my little brain.
15:41:31 <galehar> I'll see if it can be done easily (and thus quickly)
15:42:07 <TGWi> dpeg: hey, I suggested that when it was implemented it :(
15:42:14 <galehar> I'm currently working on the skill menu rewrite, and my brain sweats!
15:42:22 <dpeg> galehar: I feel with you.
15:42:23 <TGWi> s/implemented it/implemented/
15:42:33 <dpeg> TGWi: sorry if I didn't see that back then.
15:42:50 <galehar> although, it's better than when I tried the crosstrain as aptitude and my brain bleed :/
15:42:53 <dpeg> It's also very well possible that I subconsciously made your idea my own... that happened a couple of times already.
15:42:59 <dpeg> galehar: :)
15:43:00 <TGWi> :)
15:48:02 <galehar> funny, the . and ' keys work, even without the cursor :)
15:48:40 <dpeg> yes, they work well
15:48:54 <dpeg> but it would be better if the cursor auto-magically switched on :)
15:49:02 <galehar> of course
15:49:11 <TGWi> crawl 1.0 will have a telepathic cursor
15:49:17 <dpeg> after that, we could probably dispense with the option
15:49:18 <galehar> everything should be automagic
15:50:57 <dpeg> TGWi: if the player is just too incompetent, the game just become more and more impatient and finally state: "You suck. Let me do it." and take over control of the @.
15:51:48 <dpeg> I sometimes wish we would release a major version and the whole changelog would be: "Removed 82 options."
15:51:55 <TGWi> lol
15:53:49 <TGWi> ??options
15:53:50 <Henzell> options[1/1]: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/docs/options_guide.txt
15:54:06 <TGWi> there are some I've never seen but I'm sure they have faithful users
15:54:13 <TGWi> stuff like pickup order
15:55:44 <dpeg> TGWi: _every_ option has dedicated users... who'll state without blinking that "they'll revert to version 0.7.1 if option XXX is touched".
15:56:12 <TGWi> heh
15:57:43 <TGWi> weapon =, book =, wand =, chaos_knight =, priest =, species =, background =, random_pick =, and good_random = seem really ridiculous to me
15:59:22 <dpeg> yes, I think I agree
15:59:30 <dpeg> although these are probably the oldest options we have
15:59:41 <dpeg> This is code typed by Linley himself. Don't touch!
16:10:09 <dpeg> !seen bhaak
16:10:09 <Henzell> I last saw bhaak at Mon Nov 22 11:27:15 2010 UTC (10h 42m 54s ago) saying swell, I can live out my pyromaniacal desires on ##crawl-dev.
16:14:16 <dpeg> !tell bhaak What's going on with devnull? Is the tournament alive?
16:14:17 <Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let bhaak know.
16:14:50 -!- Giomancer has joined ##crawl-dev
16:22:28 <bhaak> dpeg: it's running, seems a second tournament died/crashed/whatever. the european server died early on.
16:22:28 <Henzell> bhaak: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
16:22:32 <bhaak> !messages
16:22:33 <Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (8m 17s ago): What's going on with devnull? Is the tournament alive?
16:23:06 <bhaak> I don't do well. I haven't even finished ZAPM yet. New version seems to have killed my skills
16:23:24 -!- Giomancer has quit [Quit: On the other hand, you have different fingers.]
16:24:04 <dpeg> bhaak: so it's only the webpage that is broken?
16:24:26 <bhaak> dpeg: http://nethack.devnull.net/ ? works for me
16:25:03 <casmith789> dpeg: the route to the server broke. it's back up now
16:25:19 <dpeg> I see
16:25:34 <dpeg> Is that equivalent to CAO passing out during the Crawl tournament?
16:25:52 <bhaak> ah, didn't get that
16:26:21 <galehar> that's what happen with new software that didn't have the time to get properly tested and debugged...
16:26:23 <casmith789> dpeg no, because it wasn't devnull's fault, which is quite surprising
16:26:28 <casmith789> :)
16:27:33 <dpeg> galehar: yes, I am very glad with the way Darshan runs our tournament.
16:28:02 <kilobyte> you mean, an actual freeze and bug testing beforehand.  Like in any sane software project?
16:28:13 <galehar> we'll see what happens next year
16:28:24 * galehar goes back to implementing new bugs in crawl
16:28:34 <kilobyte> freezes may be hated by some people, but they _work_
16:29:03 <galehar> yes, the debian folks know a bit about that ;)
16:51:25 <galehar> dpeg: artefact description states that they "cannot be changed by magic or mundane means". Does that imply corrosion immunity, or should I add a line about that?
16:53:33 <Eronarn> 'cannot be damaged or modified, whether by'
16:54:10 <galehar> that's good
17:02:38 <galehar> except that it makes an 87 char line which wraps at the last word.
17:04:22 <kilobyte> I'd say "changed" already includes that.
17:04:24 <dpeg> galehar: immunity
17:04:44 <dpeg> oh, sorry
17:05:01 <dpeg> +1 to kilo
17:05:29 <galehar> ok, so I just skip the corrosion description for artefact then
17:07:47 <CIA-54> 03galehar * rf8933e099c3d 10/crawl-ref/ (7 files in 3 dirs): Replace the menu_cursor option by automagic
17:07:49 <CIA-54> 03galehar * rd5e224dee845 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Remove corrosion resistance from artefact description
17:08:24 <dpeg> galehar: <3
17:08:33 <galehar> :)
17:11:26 <TGWi> do rings of rFoo autoidentify?
17:12:53 <dpeg> no
17:14:43 <dpeg> galehar: it's now more like a Christmas present, but I won't complain :)
17:14:59 <galehar> sure :)
17:15:52 <dpeg> galehar: I looked at your commit -- is it true that the line +                InvEntry::set_show_cursor(true);
17:16:05 <dpeg> is the one enabling the cursor after ' or . being pressed?
17:16:12 <galehar> yes
17:16:19 <dpeg> (there are two such lines, one for each command)
17:16:28 <galehar> exactly
17:16:40 <dpeg> I see, you replaced the explicit option by an implicit one?
17:16:44 -!- lorimer has quit [Quit: usb bus borked.  brb]
17:17:16 <dpeg> galehar: if you use ./' once, then leave the drop menu and open a new one -- is the cursor visible right from the start?
17:17:24 <galehar> I got rid of the option and replaced it by a static boolean in InvEntry (which is just a shame global variable)
17:17:38 <galehar> no, it won't be
17:17:47 <galehar> it is cleared in the InvMenu constuctor
17:18:17 * dpeg goes back to designing gods.
17:18:22 <dpeg> :)
17:21:02 -!- lorimer has joined ##crawl-dev
17:44:19 <CIA-54> 03dolorous * r15cfe32f0964 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-book.cc: Add missing periods.
18:10:25 -!- galehar has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.12/20101026210630]]
19:24:04 -!- Mu_ has quit [Quit: Defecator, may everything turn out okay so that you can leave this place.]
19:47:40 <Ashenzari> Malign Gateways can be opened through walls with scrying (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2860) by MarvintheParanoidAndroid
19:52:23 <dpeg> MarvinPA is insane... he is looking for bugs in places nobody else would touch :)
19:52:40 <due> dpeg: Tentacle Hentai Land?
19:52:48 <MarvinPA> i already abused that in a game before, and then found it wasn't fixed when the rest of the scrying issues were :P
19:53:02 <dpeg> due: Well, I guess many adolescents would want to look there :)
19:53:03 <due> MarvinPA: Yeah, malign gateway uses custom location code.
19:53:22 <dpeg> MarvinPA: many thanks for MAntis activity!
19:53:26 <MarvinPA> it's pretty cool the way it needs an open space, though
19:53:32 <MarvinPA> no problem :)
19:53:47 <dpeg> MarvinPA: I think that's the only input from me on the spell =)
20:32:47 -!- Zaba has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20:43:54 -!- Zaba has joined ##crawl-dev
21:23:31 -!- elliptic has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.10/20100914125854]]
21:26:49 -!- elliptic has joined ##crawl-dev
21:30:38 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev
21:33:18 -!- Pacra__ has joined ##crawl-dev
21:33:50 -!- Pacra has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
21:36:20 -!- Pacra_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
21:41:06 <dpeg> How good is an eveningstar?
21:41:16 <dpeg> Worth switching to M&F? (Ash here.)
21:43:05 <Eronarn> good, but not as good as a demon whip, which is far more common
21:44:06 <dpeg> also found a demon whip of flaming...
21:44:24 <dpeg> but eveningstars are so rare and I like the name a lot
21:45:09 <Eronarn> they're cute
21:46:42 -!- Pacra__ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:47:23 -!- Pacra__ has joined ##crawl-dev
22:00:23 -!- Pacra_ has joined ##crawl-dev
22:03:00 -!- Pacra__ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
22:07:35 -!- herself has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
22:25:19 -!- hashc has joined ##crawl-dev
22:28:45 -!- Textmode has quit [Quit: Over the ages, man has been certain of a great many things. some of these things were even true.]
22:41:15 <TGWi> I think zot:5 should only have one vault
22:41:44 <monky> are you complaining about orb chamber variance? :(
22:41:51 <TGWi> I get the anti-apportation thing, but it seems cool that it's one of the few static parts of the game; should pick one and keep it
22:45:29 -!- enne has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
22:53:05 <dpeg> TGWi: Zot:5 is also variable in the monster sets.
22:53:26 <TGWi> that's fine, I mean the geography of it
22:54:32 <dpeg> yes, I know
22:55:02 <dpeg> I think I'd like it if the orb vault changes were a bit ... subtler than now.
22:56:35 <dpeg> anyway, sleep
22:56:37 -!- dpeg has quit [Quit: zzz]
22:57:00 <TGWi> did he just go to bed at 5 AM
23:00:06 <Zannick> whose time?
23:01:45 <Siber> he appears to have connected by way of poland
23:09:41 -!- enne has joined ##crawl-dev
23:14:18 -!- enne has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
23:14:31 -!- TGWi has left ##crawl-dev
23:19:28 -!- herself has joined ##crawl-dev
23:21:57 -!- valrus_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:25:43 -!- gamefreak264 has joined ##crawl-dev
23:56:59 -!- Noom has joined ##crawl-dev