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02:37:29 <Gretell> dazzle (L1 MDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (D:1)
02:37:33 <Gretell> dazzle (L1 MDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (D:1)
02:37:35 <Gretell> dazzle (L1 MDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (D:1)
02:37:37 <Gretell> dazzle (L1 MDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (D:1)
02:37:40 <Gretell> dazzle (L1 MDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (D:1)
02:37:43 <Gretell> dazzle (L1 MDHe) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (D:1)
02:57:42 <Zao> When in doubt, retry half a dozen times :D
03:04:51 <kilobyte> our description code could be made a lot smarter
03:05:04 <kilobyte> this crash is Ely's desc not fitting on the screen
03:06:02 <kilobyte> this is also why due split quotes to a next screen, making them look ridiculous if the item has a single-line description and a two-line quote, each on a separate screen, on a normal size terminal
03:07:36 <kilobyte> (not that I like to touch anything related to user interface when there others around :p)
03:08:39 <kilobyte> thus I'm waiting to see if someone steps up to sanitize that part... if not, we'll put a workaround for Ely
03:14:44 <Napkin> moin!
03:14:44 <Henzell> Napkin: You have 7 messages. Use !messages to read them.
03:14:52 <Napkin> pfff.. riiight
03:14:59 <Napkin> !help messages
03:15:00 <Henzell> !messages: (1/7) due said (7w 3d 1h 5m 57s ago): http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=gnoll+sergeant !!! Vault-defined monsters in Gretell, and their tiles too!
03:15:05 <Napkin> lol
03:15:41 <Napkin> anyone seen the most detailed crash bug-report ever from simonj?
03:15:52 <kilobyte> vault-defining anything but the name = meh
03:16:18 <Napkin> if the webform didn't ask for version/cao/cdo/os if would just have been "it crashes"
03:16:20 <kilobyte> (or weapon/armour, that works well too)
03:16:29 <Napkin> what's up, kilobyte?
03:16:53 <Napkin> Don't you have a shiny Tuesday morning, too? ;)
03:17:04 <kilobyte> heh, indeed a great report
03:17:48 <kilobyte> just as bad as any other day these days...
03:18:21 <Napkin> MarvinPA said (4h 28m 58s ago): a lot of people seem to have crashed on cdo and can't get back into their games, with the error "Another game is already in progress using this save!  Hit any key to exit..."
03:18:35 <Napkin> it's connected to this simonj crash
03:18:38 <Napkin> somehow...
03:18:41 <Napkin> weird shit
03:18:44 <Napkin> !coffee kilobyte
03:18:44 * Henzell hands kilobyte a mug of irish coffee, brewed by Trog.
03:20:10 <kilobyte> uhm, the only time Crawl is supposed to open (and lock) any save other than yours is when loading the save browser, which is not used on CDO
03:21:14 <Napkin> yesterday eith told me, that everybodies game was hanging
03:21:29 <Napkin> simonj's game had 99%.. and i needed to kill it with -9
03:21:40 <Napkin> then 3 more crash messages showed up here
03:21:50 <Napkin> and everything supposedly went back to normal
03:22:15 <Napkin> 23:42 <        eith> Napkin: anything wrong with cdo? it seems to have hung for everyone
03:22:19 <Napkin> 23:44 <      Napkin> not really.. one guy (simonj) has a 99% cpu usage process though
03:22:22 <Napkin> 23:44 <+        Mu_> from looking at his game it seems he crashed and is stuck at 'writing crash info'
03:22:26 <Napkin> 23:44 <     Gretell> polystyrus (L1 NaCr)  (D:2)
03:22:26 <Napkin> 23:44 <     Gretell> ion (L3 NaGl)  (D:2)
03:22:26 <Napkin> 23:45 <      Napkin> wow, needed a -9 kill
03:22:33 <Napkin> ---
03:23:01 <Napkin> it seems, that at least the 2 crashes from polystyrus and ion were hanging
03:23:17 <kilobyte> !lm ion type=crash -log
03:23:17 <Sequell> 1. ion, XL3 NaGl, T:1576 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/ion/crash-ion-20110307-224449.txt
03:23:18 <Napkin> only able to write their crash-info after I killed simonj's game
03:24:12 <Napkin> maybe simonj's crash was blocking access to milestones or logfile?
03:24:21 <kilobyte> /bin/crawl-svn-273693b(_Z9lock_fileibb+0x38) [0x915c18]: lock_file(int, bool, bool)
03:24:24 <kilobyte> /bin/crawl-svn-273693b(_Z7lk_openPKcRKSs+0x37) [0x5e1617]: lk_open(char const*, std::string const&)
03:24:27 <kilobyte> /bin/crawl-svn-273693b(_Z14mark_milestoneRKSsS0_bl+0x13b) [0x63844b]: mark_milestone(std::string const&, std::string const&, bool, long)
03:24:30 <kilobyte> /bin/crawl-svn-273693b(_Z11monster_dieP7monster11killer_typeibbb+0x1342) [0x7ada82]: monster_die(monster*, killer_type, int, bool, bool, bool)
03:24:33 <kilobyte> yeah, that's it
03:25:25 <Napkin> i could copy simonj's game
03:25:43 <Napkin> it seems, s/he tried to load the game again later and there was the same problem
03:26:11 <Napkin> at around 6:
03:26:12 <Napkin> 05:59 < murphy_slaw> cdo admin in the house?
03:26:12 <Napkin> 06:00 <    ZChris13> That would be Napkin.
03:26:12 <Napkin> 06:00 <    ZChris13> I think
03:26:14 <Napkin> 06:00 <     Gretell> Jordan7hm (L27 SpBe)  (Dis:7)
03:26:17 <Napkin> 06:00 <     Gretell> tartakower (L5 MuFi)  (D:3)
03:26:19 <Napkin> 06:00 <     Gretell> AlphaQ (L15 MDBe)  (D:15)
03:26:22 <Napkin> ---
03:28:33 <kilobyte> now that's pretty interesting
03:29:19 <kilobyte> I'd think anything related to locking files would be never related to any data stored in a game... just the in-memory process state
03:30:31 <Napkin> uuuh, now I need a coffee before I can understand that techno sentence of yours ;)
03:30:35 <Napkin> !coffee
03:30:35 * Henzell hands Napkin a pot of café au lait, brewed by Mnoleg.
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03:32:27 <kilobyte> I mean, I'd never suspect a file locking bug to be reproducible by playing from the same save while not happening for anyone else
03:34:06 <Napkin> I removed his save - and he did a backup and attached it earlier to his bug-report
03:35:15 <Napkin> so.. the crash was after locking the file and before unlocking it again?
03:35:32 <Napkin> well.. the second crash.. like 2 crashes at once? :D
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03:40:09 <Keskitalo> @whereis Napkin
03:40:09 <Gretell> Napkin the Blademaster (L27 KoAs), a worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, saved on Lair:1 on 2011-03-08 after 157999 turns.
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03:46:06 <Napkin> \o/
03:46:13 <Napkin> moin Eino :)
03:46:38 <Napkin> I am going to win that little bastard today! :D
03:47:36 <Napkin> Only missing resist mutation.. but the way to Tomb 2 forced me through a Zot trap, which gave me red glow, which gave me shouting, frail (grrr!), but also resist mutations 1 :D
03:48:08 <Napkin> I have rC+++, rF+++, rN+++ - maybe I should do some hells?
03:51:26 <Keskitalo> Have you been to Pan? People tend to say it's easier than the Hells.
03:51:53 <Keskitalo> I watched a bit of your Tomb campaign, using Kiku's Delivery Service was pretty cool. :)
03:52:23 <Keskitalo> I think I've died once in a Hell, and once in Pan.. Hells are definitely more intense (and fun)!
03:52:53 <Keskitalo> I think I've always done Hells first.. :P
03:53:06 <kilobyte> Keskitalo: not until it starts to go south: in Hells, any troubles are very short-term, when you shake off that five fiends you can immediately return to safety
03:54:23 <Napkin> yeah, first time I played Kiku - awesome :)
03:54:34 <Napkin> haven't yet used his torment ability though
03:55:06 <Napkin> all big enemies, which made me sweat, where torment resistant according to Gretell
03:55:11 <Napkin> *were
03:55:54 <Napkin> been playing DDNe previously.. but wanted a char that heals and starts out with a weapon skill
03:56:29 <Napkin> I've never been to Pan - absolutely no clue how to play it
03:57:06 <Napkin> I'm a bit worried, because I have like.. only 5 more heal wounds (potions & wand) and out of hasting means
03:59:15 <Keskitalo> yeah.. end-game resistances are very uniform, which is bad
03:59:19 <kilobyte> uhm, a DDNe is a terrible char to try Hells or Pan for the first time
03:59:57 <Keskitalo> Zot might have some targets for torment.. but I think all of those are better dealt with something else
04:00:27 <Keskitalo> and you need to be standing on a corpse
04:01:17 <kilobyte> it might be useful to allow to use a corpse from inventory
04:01:44 <Napkin> oh - i expected to need to wear the corpse in my hand
04:01:50 <Napkin> *wield
04:02:15 <Napkin> anyways, first time kiku and it's great
04:03:16 <Keskitalo> Kiku is cool, I did my DSSu allruner with Kiku.
04:03:27 <Napkin> his necromancy book and the dagger of electrocution (found early) were _the_ reasons to survive, I believe
04:03:28 <kilobyte> Napkin: yeah, this is one of my reasons to do that
04:04:03 <kilobyte> torment protection is a major thing
04:04:08 <Napkin> and - first time I managed to enter Tomb 3
04:04:21 <Napkin> but.. piety went down too quickly - couldn't finish it
04:04:27 <Keskitalo> Kiku is a bit funny though, in that you get early goodies, you get midgame goodies, you can do post-endgame ... and the god is generally powerful.
04:04:35 <kilobyte> !lm Napkin type=rune s=rune
04:04:35 <Sequell> 46 milestones for Napkin (type=rune): 15x serpentine, 13x decaying, 9x silver, 6x barnacled, 2x abyssal, 1x slimy
04:04:49 <Napkin> serpentine, barnacled & silver
04:05:13 <Napkin> maybe I should have focussed a bit more on summoning.. since I learned it with Recall already
04:05:23 <Keskitalo> Hey, pointless tweaked Slime layouts, you might want to take a peek, I recall you hated the changes.
04:05:41 <Keskitalo> Napkin: Haunt is insanely good, try it before nerfing ;)
04:05:47 <Napkin> oh? I hated? don't think so
04:05:56 <Keskitalo> Maybe it was everyone else :P
04:06:05 <kilobyte> @whereis Napkin
04:06:05 <Gretell> Napkin the Blademaster (L27 KoAs), a worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, saved on Lair:1 on 2011-03-08 after 157999 turns.
04:06:05 <Napkin> generally don't like corrosion, of course - and the wands did too much damage in 0.7
04:06:13 <Keskitalo> I mean the earlier changes (0.7), not pointless's
04:06:19 <kilobyte> hrm, @whereis doesn't show version
04:06:28 <Napkin> playing Trunk
04:06:40 <Napkin> got infected and.. like always.. can't let go ;>
04:06:44 <Napkin> release already! :D
04:07:11 <Keskitalo> release manager already!
04:07:37 <kilobyte> still quite a bit to do before it makes sense to freeze
04:08:07 <kilobyte> and instead of tying the knots I do useful but non-vital stuff like cloud targetting...
04:08:41 <Napkin> some draconian corroded my precious cloak of preservation
04:08:58 <kilobyte> speaking of which... there are ways to abuse clouds for great out of LOS kills
04:09:13 <kilobyte> up to 10 squares out of range
04:09:19 <Napkin> not sure i should do slime.. would probably make me furious again.. since helmet, shield and cloak are not immune to corrosion
04:10:31 <Napkin> btw.. i consider it a but, that the cloak of preservation is not immune to corrosion
04:10:32 <kilobyte> do you have inferior replacements and a means of rCorr?
04:10:35 <Napkin> *a bug
04:11:21 <Napkin> only cloak of preservation - found 8 bucklers in total and a few helms..
04:11:24 <Napkin> could work
04:11:31 <kilobyte> I'd say most real shielding is not immune to what they're made to protect from
04:12:34 <Napkin> btw - acid resistance is ". . ." now?
04:12:52 <kilobyte> like real shields... modern police shields might fare relatively well against thrown bottles from a crowd, but against actual medieval weapons, shields lasted pretty much a single battle -- usually even not that long
04:12:53 <Napkin> and warding is ". ."?
04:13:11 <kilobyte> or, ablative shields on spaceships
04:13:14 <Zaba> re
04:14:59 <kilobyte> Zaba: meow?
04:15:05 <Napkin> moin Zaba
04:16:07 <Napkin> i see that differently, kilobyte - if you build a spaceship with shield generator to protect the whole ship, of course you make sure the shield generator is protected best
04:17:01 <Napkin> ;)
04:17:08 <Napkin> but ok - giving up
04:17:26 <Napkin> will bring it up again next year though ;-P
04:17:45 <kilobyte> so the amulet can be thought of a shield generator :p
04:18:44 <Napkin> nooooooo!
04:18:46 <Napkin> :-P
04:20:35 <kilobyte> would it be a problem if clouds spells never spawn anything out of LOS?
04:21:00 <kilobyte> this might need some thematic wiggling -- but then, it is magic in the first place
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04:31:52 <Napkin> omg.. what a mean slime
04:32:21 <Napkin> 1. slime level: 1 stairs down. 2. slime level: 1 escape hatch down
04:33:23 <Napkin> nah.. that's too dangerous.. good bye, slime!
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04:35:53 <jpeg> "Crazy Yiuf forever"? Is that our new battle cry?
04:36:40 <Napkin> moin jpeg
04:36:53 <jpeg> hi
04:37:05 <jpeg> I see you're experiencing nasty lockfile trouble :D
04:37:30 <Napkin> simonj's game blocked CDO because it kept running at 99% and keep the milestones file locked
04:37:42 <Napkin> i think kilobyte is looking into it already, though
04:37:49 <Napkin> yeah :D
04:38:01 <kilobyte> not actually, got distracted then started doing something else
04:38:07 <jpeg> the crash mentions clouds, which is up kb's alley anyway
04:38:37 <jpeg> OT question, but can anyone explain the term "game engine" to me?
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04:40:00 <kilobyte> uhm, do we have any actual way to reproduce it?
04:40:04 <kilobyte> especially one with clouds
04:40:21 <jpeg> all I got was the assert on loading
04:40:23 <bhaak> hi jpeg. like a programming library, only for games. you could say that crawl is "crawl game engine + content"
04:40:37 <jpeg> ... which I rather suspect is a result of the crash
04:40:55 <jpeg> bhaak: yes, but what part of Crawl is the engine (as opposed to the content)
04:40:59 <jpeg> really confused here
04:41:10 <bhaak> everything in dat isn't part of the engine :)
04:41:13 <jpeg> wikipedia mentioned physics engines and 3D engines and stuff
04:41:47 <bhaak> yeah, for commercial 3D stuff. but in crawl you don't have a clear line as you don't have a generic game engine
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04:42:18 <jpeg> I guess if we were to strip anything specific to Crawl (monsters and gameplay and stuff), that would leave the core engine
04:42:31 <jpeg> (except that Crawl's code isn't clearly divided that way)
04:42:37 <bhaak> yes, exactly
04:43:08 <jpeg> still confused
04:43:54 <jpeg> so that's handling saves and possibly the startup menu and ... yeah
04:44:35 <bhaak> also tiles and tty stuff. mostly everything that's not game mechanic specific
04:45:14 <jpeg> database handling, maybe even translating the map syntax
04:45:19 <bhaak> well, there is a gray area if you consider stuff like resistance and abilities
04:45:31 <jpeg> bhaak: thanks, this is really helping
04:45:59 <jpeg> resistance and abilities? you mean the screen and menus?
04:46:07 <bhaak> no, the actual data structures
04:46:57 <bhaak> they are certainly part of crawl, but OTOH they are rather generic
04:47:10 <jpeg> I can't really see anyone taking those to build a new game
04:47:21 <jpeg> though that might be a testament to the quality of the code :)
04:47:25 <bhaak> :)
04:48:07 <jpeg> bhaak: how's nethack going? NH-de out yet?
04:48:36 <kilobyte> got the crash, it's a forest fire which spread to a tree on the map border -- but somehow, the tree under the buggy cloud is intact
04:48:49 * bhaak pretends he didn't hear anything
04:48:56 <bhaak> unnethack got autoexplore!
04:49:18 <jpeg> bhaak: lack of an answer is an answer in itself ;)
04:49:25 <jpeg> bhaak: and yeah, I heard
04:49:36 <jpeg> however, I never felt that NH needed autoexplore
04:49:51 <jpeg> the levels are small and regular enough that exploration doesn't feel like a chore
04:49:54 <kilobyte> yeah, the map is pretty tiny
04:50:07 <kilobyte> interlevel travel, though...
04:50:08 <jpeg> except in labyrinths, but that's a problem of its own
04:50:14 <jpeg> kilobyte: exactly
04:50:19 * jpeg nudges bhaak
04:50:49 <bhaak> almost like facebook in here
04:51:02 <jpeg> kilobyte: we might have special code to prevent destruction of map border trees
04:51:41 <bhaak> i was constantly running around in nh with the Run command. it's really annoying that it stops so frequently. autoexplore might not be needed, but it certainly is helpful
04:52:06 <bhaak> as long as it doesn't walk you into lava :-)  (early bug someone encountered)
04:52:20 <jpeg> I always had fun exploring the levels and it wasn't a problem because there's the run command
04:52:25 <jpeg> running into lava? ouch!
04:53:06 <jpeg> on the other hand, it fits the game pretty well
04:53:15 <jpeg> it's your own fault you didn't interrupt exploration in time :)
04:53:22 <kilobyte> :p
04:58:22 <bhaak> interrupting exploration is pretty hard for player ATM
04:58:37 <bhaak> considering that it is impossible with the version on the server :)
04:58:57 <jpeg> bhaak: sorry, put it on the "bad ideas" list :)
04:59:22 <jpeg> you've also reduced the number of labyrinths, right?
04:59:37 <jpeg> that strikes me as more important
05:00:41 <bhaak> yes, currently there are only 3 real labyrinths left. 2 of those will vanish sooner or later so only the level with the vibrating square will be left as one large labyrinth
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05:02:28 <jpeg> bhaak: you're getting rid of the pre-castle minotaur? Nooo!
05:04:48 <dpeg> Noooooo!
05:05:25 <dpeg> It won't be Nethack anymore, it'll be cheese cake.
05:06:34 <bhaak> jpeg: pre-castle minotaur? there's a titan on the castle but minotaurs are only in labyrinths which may but rarely do are generated between medusa and the castle
05:08:26 <jpeg> I thought the pre-castle lab was guaranteed, what with the castle being surrounded with a maze border
05:10:23 <bhaak> oh, I had it wrong way around: "Levels between Medusa's island and the Castle have a 4/5 chance of being mazes"
05:10:56 <bhaak> but there's also the possibility that medusa is just above the castle
05:11:24 <jpeg> ah, that sounds more like it - imho, one of them is completely sufficient, though - I agree with you on that count :)
05:12:05 <dpeg> A single maze pre-Castle is much more meaningful than a billion mazes past Castle.
05:13:19 <bhaak> in unnethack between medusa and the castle, there's no laybrinth but mines-like level with lava
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05:13:57 <kilobyte> @whereis simonj
05:13:57 <Gretell> simonj the Destroyer (L18 DrWz), a worshipper of Ashenzari, saved on Swamp:4 on 2011-03-07 after 49795 turns.
05:14:00 <bhaak> in that case, yeah I got rid of the pre-castle minotaur
05:14:22 <kilobyte> Napkin: did you move that save away?  It can be put back (after recompiling, of course).
05:14:31 <CIA-45> 03kilobyte * rc1be1ae0a4ca 10/crawl-ref/source/ (tag-version.h tags.cc): A shim to recover saves with forest fires out of bounds.
05:14:38 <Napkin> I moved it away, yes
05:14:43 <CIA-45> 03kilobyte * r34244263d37d 10/crawl-ref/source/cloud.cc: Don't place steam near fire out of bounds.
05:14:50 <Napkin> recompile and move save back?
05:15:02 <jpeg> kilobyte: wow, great work!
05:15:08 <kilobyte> yeah, should work now
05:15:13 <Napkin> roger
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05:15:27 <kilobyte> actually, I was wrong about it being forest fire -- any fire would cause that
05:15:43 <jpeg> I've got a question on low-int restrictions
05:15:44 <kilobyte> swamp trees now count as "watery" and thus can produce steam when warmed
05:15:57 <dpeg> Dnice
05:16:05 <dpeg> jpeg: yes?
05:16:40 <jpeg> Currently, if you put on a cursed ring of -Int, you can't remove it again with ?RC
05:16:52 <jpeg> because you can't read in the cooldown period
05:17:13 <jpeg> (there's a BR somewhere that !brilliance times out before that, even)
05:17:35 <kilobyte> the cooldown period is the source of a pile of bug reports
05:17:47 <jpeg> (also, you're not prompted before knowingly putting on an item that put a stat below zero, which is a regression)
05:17:58 <kilobyte> oh, nasty
05:18:15 <jpeg> kilobyte: but it doesn't appear to be a problem for Dex or Str
05:18:46 <kilobyte> jpeg: people complain that "their carrying capacity didn't update"
05:18:51 <jpeg> being unable to read scrolls while "brainless" is really flavourful
05:19:29 <jpeg> but maybe a similar effect could be achieved by introducing a read delay (i.e. it takes you 5 turns to finish reading that scroll of blinking)
05:19:40 <jpeg> or something similar to the blurry vision mutation
05:20:08 <jpeg> otoh, that might just introduce interface screw
05:20:13 <Gretell> Unstable branch on CDO updated to: 0.8.0-a0-5627-g3424426 (32)
05:21:05 <dpeg> jpeg: no, that sounds very good
05:21:21 <dpeg> just have people read this scroll again and again
05:21:28 <dpeg> (a chance of 20% will be fine)
05:21:39 <kilobyte> as in, during the actual Int<=0 time or during recovery?
05:21:51 <jpeg> dpeg: got it at 1/5 right now :)
05:22:05 <jpeg> kilobyte: that's one of the things I'm unsure about
05:22:34 <dpeg> during Int<0 will be fine
05:22:50 <jpeg> you think the cooldown itself is bad enough?
05:23:59 <dpeg> what does it do for Int?
05:24:04 <jpeg> there's also a tiles issue right now: you can mouseclick-read books (though not memorise from them) while Brainless
05:24:26 <jpeg> dpeg: prevent reading scrolls/books, probably spellcasting too
05:24:48 <dpeg> jpeg: yes, that's good enough
05:25:00 <jpeg> 'kay
05:25:46 <kilobyte> reading is just looking at description, though
05:25:58 <dpeg> yes, only flavour
05:26:28 <jpeg> it's also about identifying books
05:26:57 <Napkin> oh - "found a gateway to hell" in Tartarus? is that a secondary escape hatch?
05:27:27 <jpeg> Manuals also work
05:28:10 <dpeg> jpeg: but shouldn't
05:28:31 <jpeg> dpeg: right, that's the bug
05:28:41 <kilobyte> Napkin: yeah, that's silly... you _are_ in Hell already
05:30:21 <Napkin> i expected to hand in the middle of the hell again, but was treated as if I left via stairs up
05:31:46 <Napkin> *expected to land
05:31:47 <kilobyte> going back doesn't put you where you entered from like other portals do, too
05:31:48 <Napkin> no
05:31:48 <Napkin> i think you misunderstand me
05:33:26 <Napkin> well, maybe not
05:33:28 <Napkin> anyways, leaving tartarus via stairs always places me at the entrance to tartarus again
05:34:09 <Napkin> which also happened when leaving tartarus via "entrance to hell" gate
05:39:27 <Zaba> you found a real gateway to hell in tar? I guess that shouldn't happen
05:39:28 <Napkin> ouch.. abyss?
05:39:28 <Napkin> actually quite a few, Zaba
05:39:29 <Zaba> hmm
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05:40:10 <Zaba> but it's been a while since I've looked at the code, so I have forgotten that :P
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05:43:41 <Zaba> (and I've never been in hells in a non-wizmode game, so...)
05:47:54 <kilobyte> dpeg, Zaba: what do you think about restricting Freezing/Poisonous Cloud spells to never spill out of LOS?  That would reduce realism but prevent abuse.
05:48:00 <Zaba> is the level of abuse really high enough for that to be an issue?
05:48:07 <kilobyte> if you block a part of a corridor (with another cast or, preferably, with a lesser cloud), you can hit things 10 squares out of range
05:48:34 <Zaba> I don't really like such a restriction, as I generally don't like it when things are player-centered in such ways
05:49:16 <Zaba> can't the range of those spells be reduced?
05:49:41 <kilobyte> it's not about the initial range, it's more about the way they spread
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06:06:51 <Napkin> lol - now that was bad timing
06:07:02 <Napkin> a skeletal warrior made zombies of _my_ kiku corpses :D
06:08:04 <kilobyte> did you get golden dragons and titans?
06:08:15 <Napkin> luckily not this time :D
06:12:38 <Napkin> hmm.. do i really need to search for secret doors in T7? :(
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06:17:34 <kilobyte> beh, you need to dig not only for optional loot, but also for the rune itself
06:17:46 <Napkin> seriously?
06:17:50 <kilobyte> not to mention the level being a massive spoiler-fest
06:18:05 <Napkin> what other choice is there?
06:18:23 <Napkin> just got cast back to the abyss.. but will try without first
06:19:53 <kilobyte> even worse, you may have to search for secret doors at fixed places along a long wall
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06:27:30 <Napkin> s/<secret door>/+/ as a quick fix?
06:31:16 <kilobyte> might be a good idea
06:31:32 <Napkin> gogogo, i'll compile again quickly ;)
06:31:39 <kilobyte> one of Crypt ends is a massive spoiler end too
06:31:59 <kilobyte> no way, even if we change this, the level in your game won't be regenerated
06:32:04 <Napkin> what do you mean with spoiler end? that people lookup the plain-text map in the source?
06:32:21 <kilobyte> yeah :(
06:32:25 <kilobyte> at least I do
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06:37:59 <Mu_> there's nothing wrong with my maps
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06:39:48 <Mu_> if you can't bear to leave crypt without obsessively seeking out every last piece of loot that's your problem
06:40:58 <kilobyte> having to source-dive to find most of the stuff -- even including the rune! -- something is really wrong
06:41:29 <kilobyte> in fact, source diving giving you any non-negligible advantage at all is a bug
06:42:35 <dpeg> kilobyte: I am fine with restricting the cloud spells. We don't need to do it now, but there will be a time when players are taught how to abuse them. And then we'll have to do it anyway.
06:42:48 <Mu_> there is no way the rune's location isn't obvious
06:42:53 <Napkin> Tartarus7 is called crypt?
06:44:10 <Mu_> i did the tar and crypt maps that have secret doors
06:44:30 <Napkin> well, crypt is way different though
06:44:34 <Napkin> people have time to search
06:45:07 <kilobyte> having to search a number of spots along the walls is not obvious
06:45:43 <Mu_> yes it is, it's a giant structure with a half corridor open and nothing inside it
06:45:44 <dpeg> I believe that secret doors can be useful... if you're under pressure.
06:47:06 <kilobyte> you then have to stick there waiting... and the walls inside are far worse
06:47:25 <Mu_> how are they worse, the corridors get smaller
06:47:42 <kilobyte> especially that the secret doors can be not at the ends of corridors but also at unobvious fixed places
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06:48:11 <Mu_> if you think secret doors should be both deterministic and obvious then it defeats the point of having secret doors in the first place
06:48:30 <Mu_> why not remove them from the game instead of complaining about the few maps that use them in an interesting way
06:48:54 <kilobyte> like that 'h' three squares beyond the D
06:49:38 <Zaba> I don't see how the secret doors in question add much to that particular map
06:49:46 <Zaba> speaking of 'interesting'
06:50:17 <dpeg> Mu_: I once made a set of ten Elf:7 maps, dealing around secrets (not just doors). Removed when the complaining took on for too long :(
06:50:18 <kilobyte> they can be interesting but not on fixed maps where you source-dive to find the places you have to search
06:50:19 <Zaba> the secret doors at the ends of the corridor are quite obvious, yes
06:50:35 <kilobyte> on random levels they are fine
06:50:36 <Mu_> i mean more interesting that putting secret doors in obvious places
06:50:42 <Zaba> the ones in the middle of the wall are unlikely to be used by somebody who hasn't read the .des file
06:50:50 <Mu_> give me a break
06:50:51 <dpeg> Zaba: or has some T&D?
06:51:02 <Mu_> move, rest, rest, move, rest, rest finds all the doors in 2 minutes
06:51:07 <kilobyte> Zaba: they might be the only way
06:51:21 <Zaba> dpeg, reading the .des file is an equivalent of that ;P
06:51:35 <kilobyte> Mu_: I always take up a load of T&D, and still, the quadrants Crypt end took ages in my last game
06:51:37 <Zaba> Mu_, yeah, in hell...
06:52:17 <Mu_> what about it
06:52:24 <Zaba> hell effects
06:52:26 <Mu_> there are no enemies place in the structure
06:52:31 <Mu_> so the only threat is the hell effects
06:52:35 <dpeg> Zaba: which makes T&D more useful there
06:52:35 <kilobyte> !log . win
06:52:38 <Mu_> how is that a big deal, it's an end game branch
06:52:40 <Sequell> 11. KiloByte, XL27 FePa, T:167011: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/KiloByte/morgue-KiloByte-20110221-123508.txt
06:53:28 <kilobyte> 12 skill... which still means I had to look up all possible locations, visit them all and '5' in the spots
06:54:08 <Mu_> i've been through the map before and it's simple. if i actually tried to use the des i'd probably be more confused.
06:54:25 <kilobyte> and even worse, after all that long searching, suddenly you have a wall that has to be dug up...  how are you supposed to know that without viewing the source?
06:54:41 <kilobyte> (tar_mu, the rune)
06:55:04 <Mu_> the original tar has loot behind walls that must be dug too
06:55:22 <Napkin> well, good to know.. at least i'll carry digging now
06:55:39 <Zaba> not the rune, though
06:56:05 <dpeg> Mu_: what about using glass there? Not finding loot is okay, but the rune should be more obvious to get.
06:56:12 <Mu_> there's glass
06:56:22 <dpeg> ok!
06:57:16 <kilobyte> only on the last step, and all the searching told you you should keep '5'ing every square of the wall
06:57:57 <Mu_> the structure is stone, the rune room is rock
06:58:06 <Napkin> if i ever get out of abyss, that is
06:58:33 <kilobyte> to make things worse, in the default config both rock and stone walls are '#' or 'â–’'
06:58:46 <Mu_> they're different colours
06:59:01 <kilobyte> often redefined, including Tar
06:59:16 <kilobyte> not to mention permarock always getting the same colour
06:59:45 <Mu_> this map has been in since 0.6
07:00:50 <dpeg> kilobyte: yes, I think stone and rock (with different colours, of course) is good enough for a clue
07:00:52 <kilobyte> and Tomb of Doroklohe was a spell for ten years, too
07:01:08 <Mu_> but if you wanna pull it because you found it difficult go right ahead, i'd be happy to no longer have this conversation every few months tbqh
07:01:48 <dpeg> would probably help if Tar had secrets doors in layout generation
07:01:49 <syllogism> Hell too difficult?
07:01:59 <dpeg> so you need to search already during the Tar run
07:02:07 <kilobyte> not pull, replace fake randomization
07:02:41 <Mu_> there is no point having secret doors in the game if they are obvious and deterministic. if the player knows where they are they aren't secret.
07:02:51 <kilobyte> syllogism: difficulty can be retained by using ways that don't give a massive edge for viewing the source
07:03:11 <syllogism> you'll always have an edge when it comes to vaults
07:03:16 <syllogism> a pretty huge one really
07:03:19 <kilobyte> Mu_: exactly -- and in these maps they are deterministic
07:04:26 <kilobyte> being in one of three fixed places still means you need to know which places these are
07:05:03 <dpeg> I just looked at the map. I think it's okay.
07:05:20 <dpeg> You're naturally led to the rune room, where you see the rune, and the walls are visibly different.
07:05:26 <Mu_> dpeg: you were the one who added the cool randomisation to the doors :P
07:05:33 <dpeg> :)
07:05:51 <dpeg> You have a hint for the bigger loot chamber, and the smaller is in rock.
07:06:04 <dpeg> I know I've dug randomly when I did hells unspoiled.
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07:08:29 <kilobyte> one of Elf:7 ends had a single piece of rock in a huge stone vault.  Even worse, it led into a volume of rock.
07:09:14 <kilobyte> I ended up digging for a long time until I looked it up and noticed it looks like an omission.
07:12:23 <Mu_> so at least we're agreed as to the semiotics of rock in stone vaults :p
07:12:26 <dpeg> kilobyte: is it fixed?
07:12:43 <dpeg> Mu_: at some point we should make rules for vault designers.
07:12:46 <dpeg> I could do that.
07:13:11 <kilobyte> dpeg: yeah
07:13:20 <dpeg> cool
07:13:45 <Mu_> you should, i learned a lot from the little tweaks you did on my early vaults
07:13:58 <Mu_> come to think of it i think you randomised the secret doors on my crypt end too :P
07:14:16 <kilobyte> having large filled structures mean you can't know if any given one is hollow or not
07:17:02 <dpeg> kilobyte: yes
07:17:40 <dpeg> I see this as a good thing: there could be no loot whatsoever.
07:25:34 <kilobyte> it means you save resources and time if you know whether there is a) no loot, or b) possible loot (identical with the case of definite loot)
07:26:54 <dpeg> yes, that is true
07:27:02 <dpeg> I hope that future traps will make T&D better.
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07:50:17 <Keskitalo> !source volcano.des
07:50:18 <Henzell> Couldn't open current/source/volcano.des for reading
07:50:26 <Keskitalo> !vault tar_mu
07:50:27 <CIA-45> 03j-p-e-g * r4ba3ca2b2624 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Update the change log to g81b92e8.
07:50:29 <Henzell> Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/91778
07:50:38 <CIA-45> 03j-p-e-g * ra339fdf073a5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (item_use.cc player-stats.cc): Replace scroll reading penalty while brainless with 80% failure chance.
07:50:51 <Keskitalo> !source dat/des/portals/volcano.des
07:50:53 <Henzell> Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/91779
07:51:25 <Keskitalo> I have a abunch of semi-randomized secret doors in my volcano subvaults.
07:52:31 <Keskitalo> Knowing they're there at all of course helps, but at least you can't know the exact spot. I take kilobyte's argument is that this is worse than being able to look up the exact spot?
07:53:03 <dpeg> Keskitalo: no, I don't think so. IIUC, as bad.
07:53:45 <dpeg> Keskitalo: volcanoes got some flak on the forum
07:54:12 <Keskitalo> vgs_dualism vgs_hot_:hot_hot vgs_many_chambers and vts_chambers have those
07:54:31 <elliptic> reverting to the old behavior of scroll of magic mapping working beyond secret doors would help with some of these issues
07:55:26 <Keskitalo> I like the idea where mapping would reveal the door, but not go past it
07:55:38 <Keskitalo> dpeg: Thanks, I have to look it up
07:56:11 <Keskitalo> one thing that could be done would be to not always have the doors/loot, so even if you look at the map there won't always be something to find
07:56:18 <Keskitalo> but of course that's not a real solution..
07:56:30 <dpeg> Keskitalo: I did this in a number of places (not portal vaults, of course(
07:56:42 <Keskitalo> aye, in more random maps they're fine
07:57:38 <Keskitalo> like a serial vault sometimes producing secret doors somewhere
07:58:08 <Keskitalo> !source dat/des/branches/hells.des
07:58:10 <Henzell> Lines pasted to http://paste.scsys.co.uk/91780
08:02:07 <Keskitalo> dpeg: re:Volcano thread - Not my maps, I'm safe ;)
08:02:53 <Keskitalo> Some complaints about "I can't get all the loot!" where that is the point of the particular maps...
08:03:00 <MarvinPA> i haven't done many volcanoes but most of the maps i've seen are really cool
08:03:12 <dpeg> yes, same here
08:03:17 <Napkin> lalala - hours later - still in Abyss *sigh*
08:03:32 <MarvinPA> i'm not convinced there's anything wrong with them, at least :)
08:03:35 <Napkin> since 13:58
08:03:44 <Napkin> ~ 1 hour
08:04:07 <Keskitalo> I support this for Abyss: more gates, gets harder over time
08:04:24 <Keskitalo> will still be exciting early on, will be less boring when you get Abyssed in Hells
08:04:32 <Keskitalo> and each visit will be more difficult
08:04:34 <dpeg> yes
08:04:41 <Keskitalo> it'll be a much more fitting Hell effect
08:04:59 <dpeg> hells could throw you in more nasty places in the Abyss anyway
08:06:20 <Keskitalo> Napkin: nice, euro signs for gold? :)
08:06:26 <Napkin> ;)
08:06:41 <Keskitalo> holy wrath while worshipping Kiku - that's cheating!!
08:06:47 <Napkin> ;-P
08:08:17 <Keskitalo> Pearl dragon armour too! Well, my impression is that Kiku appreciates such craftiness.
08:08:49 <MarvinPA> i wondered whether yred should dislike pearl dragon armour, since he dislikes holy items
08:09:09 <dpeg> MarvinPA: I'd say so.
08:09:12 <Keskitalo> +1
08:09:12 <MarvinPA> wasn't sure if pda counts as actually holy or not, though, since undead can wear it
08:09:23 <MarvinPA> but it does repel curses like holy wrath weapons do
08:09:29 <Keskitalo> hehe, perhaps they shouldn't! :]
08:09:34 <dpeg> yeah
08:14:27 <upsy> and demonspawn
08:14:52 <Napkin> omg! \o/
08:17:18 <Napkin> ok.. great.. need digging
08:17:20 <Napkin> sucky!
08:18:50 <Keskitalo> !lm Gabriellk br.enter=icecv -tv>:6
08:18:51 <Sequell> Unknown selector: tv
08:19:02 <Keskitalo> ??footv
08:19:02 <Henzell> footv[1/4]: telnet termcast.develz.org (and then select the letter for FooTV). do not use SSH. Shows games requested using !tv. Request games by adding -tv to !lg, !lm or !hs, cancel games by adding -tv:cancel to the same command-line, clear playlist with !lg * -tv:nuke
08:19:16 <Keskitalo> ??footv[2]
08:19:16 <Henzell> footv[2/4]: Use -tv:<N to start playback approx Nx before the default start (-tv:<3 to start 3x before normal start), and for milestones, -tv:>N to end playback Nx after normal end, -tv:>$ to end playback at end of ttyrec. You can combine both seek options as -tv:<2:>3
08:19:25 <Keskitalo> !lm Gabriellk br.enter=icecv -tv:>6
08:19:30 <Sequell> 4. Gabriellk, XL14 SpAs, T:46346 (milestone) requested for FooTV.
08:25:01 <Keskitalo> !lm 78291 br.enter=icecv -tv:>6
08:25:11 <Sequell> Index out of range: 78290
08:25:13 <kilobyte> it's just pulled out of a holy creature... something TSO definitely doesn't approve
08:25:26 <Keskitalo> point
08:25:35 <casmith789> !lm !78291 br.enter=icecv -tv:>6
08:25:35 <Sequell> 1977. Soadreqm, XL9 SpTm, T:11569 (milestone) requested for FooTV.
08:25:40 <casmith789> oops
08:25:44 <casmith789> !lm !78291 br.enter=icecv -tv:>6 cancel
08:25:44 <Sequell> No milestones for !78291 (br.enter=icecv cancel).
08:26:05 <casmith789> !lm @78291 br.enter=icecv -tv:>6 cancel
08:26:05 <Sequell> No milestones for 78291 (br.enter=icecv cancel).
08:26:12 <casmith789> !lm @78291 br.enter=icecv -tv:>6
08:26:12 <Sequell> 90. 78291, XL13 DEVM, T:25753 (milestone) requested for FooTV.
08:26:18 <casmith789> that's better
08:26:20 <Keskitalo> thanks
08:26:57 <Keskitalo> oh goodness, all these spriggans are so fragile
08:29:17 <kilobyte> locally?
08:29:35 <Keskitalo> in the ice cave !tv shows
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08:33:26 <casmith789> that's kind of the point of spriggans
08:33:48 <Ashenzari> '<' and '>' not correctly handled in displayed previous search term screen (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3545) by Nexos
08:34:16 <Napkin> Defeated Ereshkigal \o/
08:34:24 <Keskitalo> go Napkin!
08:34:27 <Napkin> ok, now i'll check the source for any loot left :-P
08:39:39 <kilobyte> the spriggan monsters in Forest might be trivialized by Refrigeration, Freezing/Poison Cloud and other spells which do direct damage.
08:40:06 <casmith789> this is why spells which don't check ev are useful
08:40:40 <kilobyte> having 1e38 EV but 1e-38 hp works pretty badly against such spells
08:40:42 <casmith789> some monsters with very high EV can beat extremely strong normal monsters but lose to these spells, eg spriggan defenders can beat executioners but lose to poison clouds
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08:45:32 <st_> lots of branches have key spells that make it very easy
08:48:25 <Napkin> I have to say.. the labyrinth-like Abyss levels are terrible
08:48:42 <Napkin> back in abyss, btw.. another hour of abyss and my headache will be exponential
08:49:06 <Nexos> Napkin: at least you may find the rune
08:49:41 <Napkin> definitely not a goal anymore, Nexos
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08:57:04 <Hanzo> So....I read the best way to figure out how to access wizard mode to mess around with stuff was to come here.
08:57:33 <ais523> Hanzo: you need to recompile with wizard mode turned on, then press & in-game
08:57:40 <ais523> the recompilation is the hard part, especially if you've never done it before
08:57:50 <Hanzo> Yeah, and that's the thing.
08:58:02 <Hanzo> so i figured maybe you guys could help me figure it out?
08:58:06 <ais523> what platform are you on? don't say Windows
08:58:12 <Hanzo> sadly yes.
08:58:24 <Hanzo> but hey, it's better than nothing.
08:58:25 <ais523> ouch
08:58:36 <ais523> it's more that Windows doesn't actually come with a compiler
08:58:41 <Hanzo> i already have mingw installed like the guides said.
08:58:55 <Hanzo> but i'm wondering if i need git too.
08:58:57 <ais523> do you have a copy of the Crawl source?
08:59:05 <ais523> if not, either you need git, or you need to get a copy some other way
08:59:06 <Hanzo> yeah, the uh...lemme check.
08:59:21 <Hanzo> the one for tiles.
08:59:28 <st_> about the volcano talk earlier, one thing that I've never liked is the monster sets in them, orcs and "things with red glyphs" isn't too great.
08:59:31 <Hanzo> uh..lemme check the page again..
08:59:35 <felirx> wizard mode is bundled along all the distributed builds
08:59:37 <ais523> tiles and console have the same source
08:59:47 <Hanzo> ah yeah, tarball with deps.
08:59:54 <ais523> felirx: hmm, so just pressing & is enough? or do you have to turn it on some otherway?
09:00:00 <felirx> should be
09:00:10 <ais523> Hanzo: try it the easy way first, see if that works
09:00:24 <felirx> you can compile a version without wizard mode at all, but in anything that you have downloaded from crawl site should have it
09:00:24 <Hanzo> And that would be..?
09:00:34 <Hanzo> bear with me here, i'm a total novice at this.
09:00:42 <ais523> Hanzo: start a game, press & during the game
09:00:46 <Hanzo> Ah.
09:00:50 <Hanzo> much thanks.
09:00:58 <ais523> and then answer yes to the "do you really want to do this, it'll prevent your game being scored" question
09:01:01 <Hanzo> now i can experiment with builds and such.
09:01:22 <Hanzo> with games like this, build design is half the fun.
09:01:30 <Hanzo> and many thanks.
09:01:45 <Hanzo> now to get back to crawl.
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09:01:56 <felirx> I never found wizard mode useful for that but ecah it's own
09:02:04 <felirx> too much hassle and it feels always artificial
09:02:16 <ais523> I find Sprint good for that
09:02:24 <ais523> it's much the same as experimenting in the actual game, but 27 times faster
09:02:38 <ais523> (actually much more because the monsters get better faster as well)
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09:33:27 <Zaba> kilobyte, did you see #3545?
09:34:15 <Zaba> kilobyte, it reminds me of the issue with <s in debug messages of the 'x' command
09:42:21 <Napkin> well, not sure that tartarus hell was worth it
09:42:36 <Napkin> actually, i got more loot from the 2 trips through the Abyss that I was sent to
09:42:53 <Napkin> maybe about 1500 gold
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09:44:12 <Ashenzari> Tile for Death Ooze looks too much like regular easy Ooze (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3546) by XuaXua
09:44:12 <Napkin> also didn't help me gain piety in kiku to do the end of Tomb
09:44:46 <Napkin> I could do ice & fire hells too.. still searching for an amulet of resist mutation
09:57:03 <Napkin> How would I get out of Pan?
09:59:35 <dpeg> weapon of distortion?
10:00:53 <Napkin> hmm.. considering i still don't have resist mutation.. not such a great idea
10:01:05 <Napkin> but - I can leave Pan only through Abyss, right?
10:01:35 <MarvinPA> pan exits appear too, occasionally
10:01:46 <felirx> easier and more common via abyss
10:01:47 <MarvinPA> but you just have to keep exploring to find them, they're somewhat rare
10:02:13 <Napkin> does Pan also have the same effects as Hell?
10:02:17 <felirx> no
10:02:27 <felirx> nothing special there other than demons and nonpersistent levels
10:02:39 <Napkin> no loot?
10:02:41 <felirx> and DISCO levels
10:02:45 <felirx> of course loot
10:02:53 <Napkin> ah, like elven halls then? ok
10:02:54 <MarvinPA> lots of good loot
10:03:08 <felirx> it's like repeated random dungeon levels that disappear when you exit
10:03:16 <felirx> filled with 1's
10:04:53 <Napkin> hmm, ok
10:05:27 <Napkin> the tormenting 1's from hell were already harsh when teamed up.. even though I serve Kiku
10:06:03 <Napkin> Does the Spell Banish still exist?
10:06:45 <syllogism> no
10:06:51 <Napkin> Hmm.. what about Passage of Golubria?
10:06:51 <syllogism> as a player spell
10:06:57 <Napkin> pity
10:07:32 <Napkin> it doesn't say how long a "opening" will exist
10:08:11 <Zaba> pan only uses _plan_* or _build_rooms layouts for its levels, too
10:08:26 <Napkin> that's does tell me anything, Zaba ;)
10:08:31 <Napkin> <- pure player :D
10:08:47 <Zaba> that means it's more boring than normal dungeon in a long run
10:08:57 <Zaba> or less boring, depending on how you look at it
10:09:00 <Zaba> layout-wise
10:09:29 <Napkin> reading about Passage of Golubria - Could I use that to escape back to the Dungeon?
10:09:42 <syllogism> no
10:09:48 <Napkin> Because?
10:10:00 <syllogism> it just a spell that connects two spots on the same level
10:10:07 <syllogism> and not for very long
10:10:17 <Napkin> oooh.. that would be something to mention in the description
10:10:35 <Napkin> neither the length of an opening, nor the fact they have to be on the same level is mentioned, dpeg ;)
10:10:49 * Napkin is back to the drawing board *
10:13:23 <Napkin> I would love to try Pan.. but no way more reliable to exit is mean..
10:16:54 <Napkin> abyss again.. gee, that was fast
10:18:32 <casmith789> Napkin: lugonu gives you a very fast reliable exit!
10:19:07 <Napkin> I don't think Kiku would be too happy about that ;)
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10:46:57 <Napkin> ok, tried 2 hells, 5 times in Abyss
10:47:15 <Napkin> way too annoying to do that again
10:47:20 <casmith789> you're not ninjaing enough
10:47:34 <Napkin> abyss is not too dangerous
10:47:51 <Napkin> but searching for the exit manually is just a pain
10:49:37 <Napkin> I would have liked to try more hells.. but spending 95% of the play-time in Abyss is not fun.
10:50:01 <Napkin> especially with the Abysses like labyrinths
10:50:15 <felirx> distortion unwield still works in abyss right?
10:50:30 <felirx> err pan
10:50:59 <Napkin> didn't do Pan
10:51:06 <Napkin> tried the ice hell
10:51:48 <Napkin> 4 times Abyss when doing Tartarus, now again 2 or 3 times.. can't even count it anymore
10:52:19 <Napkin> would I do actual work at work I'd be more relaxed that navigating abyss all the time :>
10:52:22 <Napkin> off home o/
10:53:48 <Eronarn> Napkin: i got abyssed 7 times doing dis once
10:54:18 <Eronarn> it's definitely a bit overkill if you roll badly
10:54:41 <Eronarn> i think it'd be better off if it were removed as a hell effect, but there were some more abyssing monsters
10:55:07 <Eronarn> since at least that way you have some input over whether you're abyssed or not
11:00:52 <ekiM> When I try and blink through trees the game tells me I can't blink through transparent walls.
11:01:57 <Eronarn> trees are transparent walls, kind of
11:07:32 <ekiM> Sure, in the implementation.
11:26:37 <casmith789> Eronarn: or abyss was removed from summ miscast
11:26:41 <casmith789> make it half as likely
11:27:01 <casmith789> I feel abyss as tloc miscast makes much more sense
11:30:58 <Eronarn> miscasts could use some reworking in general
11:36:39 <OG17> murphyslaw got a staircase into a kobold room on cdo, if that isn't supposed to happen
11:38:01 <OG17> and he thoughtfully died
11:38:35 <OG17> l9 drtm on d7
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12:58:26 <Napkin> lalala... win!
12:58:27 <Napkin> \o/
12:58:49 <casmith789> Napkin: weren't you in hell?
12:58:56 <casmith789> if so, why only 5 runes? :)
12:59:02 <casmith789> and gz :)
12:59:25 <Napkin> only finished Tartarus Hell
12:59:36 <Napkin> + Abyssal rune ;)
12:59:57 <Napkin> but then I honestly had enough of Abyss trips ;D
13:00:39 <Napkin> and thanks :)
13:00:56 <Napkin> !lg
13:00:57 <Sequell> 762. Napkin the Blademaster (L27 KoAs), worshipper of Kikubaaqudgha, escaped with the Orb and 5 runes on 2011-03-08, with 1933280 points after 184215 turns and 24:11:47.
13:01:05 <Napkin> arg.. morgue.. uhmm..
13:01:06 <Napkin> !log
13:01:06 <Sequell> 762. Napkin, XL27 KoAs, T:184215: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Napkin/morgue-Napkin-20110308-185809.txt
13:02:14 <Napkin> oh, only 5 times Abyss
13:02:17 <Napkin> felt like more
13:02:28 <Napkin> probably because of that first 1 hour trip down there
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13:21:21 <Keskitalo> Napkin: Congrats!
13:22:42 <Napkin> Danke! :)
13:22:59 <Napkin> previous win was in february 2010 ;)
13:24:06 <kilobyte> Ko?  Weren't we talking about your DD just this morning?
13:24:50 <Napkin> no, well, no - i just mentioned, that the DDNe made me try out Kiku
13:25:07 <Napkin> the DDNe I played before
13:26:08 <kilobyte> ah, I got confused
13:26:48 <kilobyte> sorry for telling you to stay the hell away from Pan then :(
13:26:53 <kilobyte> a nice place to splat
13:27:08 <Napkin> I was afraid to go there as Kobold as well ;)
13:27:23 <Napkin> maybe next time :)
13:27:23 <kilobyte> and ninjaing is relatively easy
13:27:38 <Napkin> ?? ninjaing
13:27:38 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled ninjaing in my learndb.
13:27:40 <Napkin> ;)
13:27:40 <kilobyte> Gloorx can be nasty
13:27:55 <kilobyte> Cerebov is way, way harder to kill but easier to avoid
13:28:20 <Napkin> i didn't feel comfy without a reliable way out of Pan
13:28:26 <kilobyte> especially on one of new layouts where he's far away from the rune
13:28:32 <kilobyte> ^F distortion
13:28:41 <Napkin> didn't have mutation resistance
13:28:57 <Napkin> so.. was afraid of unwielding distortion weapon
13:29:24 <Napkin> not a single piece of equipment in the game had resist mutation
13:29:49 <kilobyte> it doesn't help much against glow anyway
13:29:52 <Napkin> funny though - a zot trap gave me resist mutation 1 mutation ;)
13:30:07 <Napkin> oh - it doen't anymore? I remember it did help in the past :(
13:30:32 <kilobyte> might be good enough for Pan -- there's plenty of neqoxecs but nowhere as many as in the Abyss
13:30:59 <Napkin> that one zot trap, which I had to go through to reach tomb2 was mean
13:31:22 <Napkin> and scroll of blinking was very rare in my game
13:31:31 <Napkin> and doesn't work in tomb1 anyways.. does it?
13:31:57 <Napkin> uhm.. could i have levitated over the zot trap?
13:33:03 <kilobyte> the amulet has only 40% chance of protecting you against glow
13:33:12 <Napkin> better than nothing
13:33:30 <kilobyte> no, but you can use regular blink
13:33:47 <Napkin> oh, true
13:33:50 <kilobyte> unless you're in a hurry, you can try as many times as you like
13:33:59 <Napkin> right - totally forgot
13:34:08 <Napkin> will it take care to not place me on the trap?
13:34:38 <kilobyte> yeah, although it doesn't work past clouds anymore
13:35:06 <kilobyte> sucks halfling balls in that popular D:1 flame loot vault
13:36:29 <kilobyte> wtfhax... the hat and boots you had are cheating :p
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13:37:35 <Top_se> hello, can anyone tell me where I can find the stone-soup-tile.desktop file to install stone-soup-tile on linux
13:38:01 <Top_se> I can`t find the file on sourceforce ...
13:38:41 <Top_se> it should be linked here http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=17099 but it isn`t ...
13:38:51 <Top_se> I`m using archlinux ^^
13:41:01 <kilobyte> not sure about Arch packaging, but at least the upstream (ie, ours) tarballs don't have an XDG file
13:42:35 <Top_se> hm, so it`s not a stone-soup-file at all !?
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13:45:01 <kilobyte> I'd expect the packaging to provide one, since it might be slightly tricky to tell where the binaries will end up at
13:46:36 <kilobyte> I see it that PKGBUILD puts the executable at $pkgdir/usr/bin/stone-soup-tiles -- with $pkgdir being probably just the staging dir, ie, / in an installed package
13:49:11 <kilobyte> I made one: http://angband.pl/tmp/stone-soup-tiles.desktop
13:49:20 <Napkin> awesome boots and hat! :D
13:50:13 <kilobyte> the PKGBUILD calls it stone-soup-tiles in some places and stone-soup-tile (no s) in another, so I'm not sure if everything is right...
13:50:59 <Top_se> hm, thx, sorry for disturbing you ^^
13:52:49 <kilobyte> why sorry?  Improving the packaging of distributions means more people will play Crawl -- ie, good for us.
13:53:08 <kilobyte> it would be good if you sent that file to whoever maintains the Arch builds
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14:00:46 <xoxide> Any dev's that are currently on, thank you for your work on crawl
14:01:28 <Top_se> hm, actually I found the file, it`s in the tarball, I messed around with installing it ...
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14:21:17 <Keskitalo> Ice cave loot should be reviewed, yeah. But I'd say gear of cold resistance that normally doesn't generate is ok, as something unique to get as a reward.
14:21:48 <Keskitalo> "foo of resistance" is pretty silly yeah. As is cpm of cold resistance.
14:21:57 <Keskitalo> And some of the maps don't have good enough stuff.
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14:24:54 <Keskitalo> !lm Turgor br.enter=icecv t:>6
14:24:54 <Sequell> Unknown selector: t:
14:25:01 <Keskitalo> !lm Turgor br.enter=icecv -tv:>6
14:25:02 <Sequell> 4. Turgor, XL10 SpEn, T:10491 (milestone) requested for FooTV.
14:25:21 <Keskitalo> These are all spriggans :P
14:26:46 <Keskitalo> bah, connection too flaky to watch footv :/
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15:00:27 <CIA-45> 03j-p-e-g * rcad36baf7703 10/crawl-ref/source/ (item_use.cc item_use.h): Reintroduce item stat loss prompts.
15:00:48 <CIA-45> 03j-p-e-g * r7ecc7ef07763 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Reorder included file listing, for easier readability.
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15:08:19 <Keskitalo> Way too many of the Ice Caves are easy ones..
15:09:04 <Keskitalo> With each level getting a chance of generating a portal, most are generated early on.
15:13:01 <Gretell> Elynae (L7 DDSu) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (Temple)
15:13:09 <Gretell> Elynae (L7 DDSu) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 801 failed. (Temple)
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16:00:23 <GreyKnight> well, I had good intentions of writing some patches for Crawl this week, but work interfered :-)
16:00:28 <GreyKnight> maybe next time!
16:00:33 <Napkin> Keskitalo, kilobyte: is this in a format you could use? http://develz.org/crawl/0001-Fix-typo-in-Elyvilon-s-detailed-description.patch
16:00:43 <Napkin> damn work, GreyKnight! ;)
16:01:21 <GreyKnight> if I didn't have to eat it wouldn't be a problem!
16:01:30 <GreyKnight> !seen rax
16:01:31 <Henzell> I last saw rax at Fri Mar  4 19:58:40 2011 UTC (4d 2h 2m 51s ago) quitting with message *.net *.split.
16:03:35 <rax> Meow?
16:03:51 <GreyKnight> oh, there she is!
16:09:57 <Napkin> geez.. those monsters made neutral are actually pretty mean.. my DD already has 12/27 - and didn't have a single "fight" yet
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16:16:25 <CIA-45> 03napkin * r8ac0cb862660 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/gods.txt: Fix typo in Elyvilon's detailed description.
16:16:50 <Napkin> great :)
16:18:57 <GreyKnight> oh, and it identified who was responsible properly even though you didn't patch it on yourself, hooray :-)
16:25:00 <kilobyte> Napkin: the output of "git format-patch" preserves most of the metadata, except for parent commits.  This can make applying tricky if there are conflicts.
16:25:38 <Napkin> any option I could give?
16:25:51 <kilobyte> I don't know of a better format other than a pull request, though
16:26:28 <Napkin> you know me.. setting up a repository is not worth it
16:26:51 <Napkin> not unless it gets more complicated ;)
16:27:55 <Napkin> GreyKnight: it uses s/(.*)@.*/\1/ of the author to figure out the name ;)
16:27:57 <kilobyte> er, wait, you mean you _don't_ have any Crawl repositories around?  Because, you know, CDO...
16:28:20 <Napkin> not going to polute it with personal stuff though!
16:28:27 <Napkin> at least not the crawl repository ;>
16:30:37 <Napkin> puh.. lesser healing has moderate hunger cost? ouch
16:31:47 <kilobyte> yeah... and doesn't make the monster provide you with its corpse
16:32:21 <kilobyte> it also doesn't make the monster die... and the worst of all, it doesn't make it suffer
16:32:27 <Napkin> and it seems those "neutral" monster have a habit of wanting to run through you
16:32:37 <Napkin> lol, kilobyte :D
16:32:40 <kilobyte> which makes Ely unacceptable as anything else as a way of scumming TSO piety :p
16:33:18 <kilobyte> (just trying to roleplay a bit :p)
16:33:27 <Napkin> (good job! :D)
16:33:50 <Napkin> terrible!
16:34:16 <Napkin> Eronarn, help us out with some extremism here! ;>
16:35:02 <Napkin> oh well.. g'night :)
16:35:03 <Napkin> o/
16:35:51 * Napkin does the winning dance in direction bed room *
16:37:35 <GreyKnight> bye
16:38:18 <kilobyte> bie!
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17:20:54 <kilobyte> uncle*2, by the way.
17:23:51 <RjY> kilobyte: re: a better format - git bundles, perhaps? sender does git bundle create /tmp/blah origin..master and sends /tmp/blah to you, you then just pull from the file
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17:30:28 <CIA-45> 03MarvinPA * rbf989cde7a19 10/crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt: Minor changelog fixes
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18:38:14 <CIA-45> 03MarvinPA * r4c18f060846a 10/crawl-ref/source/abl-show.cc: Fix Makhleb's demon summons relying on specific enum values
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19:06:15 <CIA-45> 03MarvinPA * r410a2c5ef5f4 10/crawl-ref/source/fight.cc: Don't give a chance to hit rock worms in walls except in Zotdef
19:06:26 <CIA-45> 03MarvinPA * rd9573c17e5e6 10/crawl-ref/source/ (describe.cc ouch.cc): Don't corrode ammo by clumsily bashing jellies with it
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21:08:03 <Ashenzari> Xom Altar Trap (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=3547) by 7hm
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23:19:10 <Jimmick> anyone else having trouble with the new trunk?
23:19:18 <Jimmick> it CTDs on the splash screen
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23:21:24 <due> Jimmick: Is this a new folder?
23:21:47 <due> Jimmick: Try deleting the db/ and des/ subfolders in your saves folder; it's possible a corruption issue. Otherwise I'm unsure.
23:22:35 <Jimmick> it generated new content
23:22:37 <Jimmick> but it's still crashing
23:22:41 <Jimmick> I'll keep canoodling with it
23:22:42 <due> Okay, what platform?
23:22:56 <Jimmick> vista -.-"
23:22:56 <due> If it's on Unix you might hopefully have a traceback.
23:22:58 <due> Ah.
23:23:04 <due> Are you getting an alert message at all?
23:23:09 <Jimmick> nah, just BAM
23:23:11 <Jimmick> and gone
23:23:13 <due> Huh.
23:23:17 <Jimmick> dies on 'loading maps
23:23:18 <Jimmick> '
23:23:20 <due> Has anything changed in your system recently?
23:23:37 <Jimmick> nnnnope
23:23:42 <Jimmick> and regular crawl still works fine
23:23:50 <due> Regular crawl works fine in the same folder?
23:23:50 <Jimmick> I'll try re-dling it for shits and giggles
23:23:54 <Jimmick> diff folders
23:23:57 <due> Ah.
23:23:57 <Jimmick> ... wait
23:24:07 <Jimmick> I've put trunk in a subfolder of- ah?
23:24:33 <due> So long as the tiles instance has access to everything in the right places it should be fine.
23:24:43 <due> What I can think is that there's an error recently committed in the vault definitions.
23:24:51 <due> But if you're not having problems with console that would indicate note.
23:24:53 <due> Er, not.
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23:26:27 <Jimmick> hahaahahhahahaha
23:26:38 <Jimmick> I think it was shitting itself
23:26:52 <Jimmick> because I had it in .../crawl/crawltrunk
23:27:02 <Jimmick> I just moved trunk into the folder next to crawl
23:27:04 <Jimmick> and now it works
23:27:05 <Jimmick> >.>
23:27:26 <Jimmick> cheers for the help
23:28:08 <due> You're welcome :)
23:28:19 <due> We obviously need better error messages on Windows.
23:30:09 <Jimmick> if they had error messages that would be admitting that the program encounters errors
23:30:24 <Jimmick> btw 4 sigmunds beat 10 jessicas, sigmund is fucking terrifying
23:32:15 <Jimmick> HOLY SHIT
23:32:17 <JamezQ1> wat
23:32:27 <Jimmick> 10 sigmunds vs 10 orc warriors
23:32:33 <JamezQ1> no way....
23:32:35 <Jimmick> 9 of the sigmunds die without killing any orcs
23:32:42 <Jimmick> then one of the fuckers kills every damn orc
23:32:42 <JamezQ1> ah
23:32:43 <Jimmick> one by one
23:32:49 <Jimmick> they were ALL confused
23:32:53 <JamezQ1> wow
23:32:56 <due> Jimmick: Orc warriors are pretty buff.
23:33:00 <due> Also, ##crawl -> that way. ;)
23:33:01 <Jimmick> DID I MENTION THEY HAD SPEED SCIMTARS
23:33:07 <Jimmick> oh, right, my bad
23:33:11 <Jimmick> have fun guys
23:33:13 <JamezQ1> thats a damn lucky roll
23:33:16 <Jimmick> join ##crawl
23:33:19 <Jimmick> ffffuuuu
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