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00:42:06 <Ashenzari> Rakshasa illusions can use items (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4047) by b0rsuk
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02:27:32 <Gretell> Icelos (L3 MuWz)  (D:2)
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02:42:43 <Ashenzari> monster's staff changes on death (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4048) by nubinia
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03:53:34 <Henzell> Pseudonut the Necromancer (L25 MuAK) ASSERT(y >= 1 && y <= sz.y) in 'libutil.cc' at line 848 failed on turn 114517. (Shoals:1)
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04:41:32 <Gretell> Hilariusah (L1 KoSt)  (D:1)
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05:38:55 <galehar> tornado deals irresistible damage, and it also ignores AC
05:42:26 <galehar> I don't think it should. AC even protects against cloud damage.
05:42:26 <MarvinPA> yeah, making it not ignore AC i think is probably one of the best/easiest ways to nerf the damage
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05:43:06 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever.
05:43:06 <galehar> duration is 40+pow/6
05:44:15 <galehar> at 120 power, fire storms deals 8d15 which averages at 65, but is 35% resistible (and AC)
05:50:14 <galehar> base damage of fire cloud is : random2avg(16, 3) + 6. Average 13.5 (resistible and AC)
05:51:58 <galehar> so even against a non-resisting and non-AC monster, you only need 2 turns of tornado to beat fire storm.
06:03:41 <galehar> halving the damage means it will still deal twice as much damage as fire storm over the 6 turns.
06:03:59 <MarvinPA> well, you can cast fire storm six times in six turns
06:04:33 <MarvinPA> so i think it's fine for tornado to be more efficient in terms of damage per casting, that's sort of the point of it
06:04:45 <MarvinPA> but yeah, some kind of fairly significant reduction sounds reasonable nevertheless
06:06:58 <galehar> if we half the damage, it will still be more efficient. twice more (irresistible) damage.
06:08:06 <MarvinPA> how much impact would applying AC too have? i think that'd be a good thing to do as well, since it doesn't really make much sense for it to ignore AC
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06:21:23 <galehar> it depends on monsters. High AC monsters have 20 I think. Cerebov has 30. So by just applying an AC of 20, damage per turn is reduced by 10 to 29 for a total of 174. Compared to firestom 55 (36 resisted).
06:22:23 <galehar> doing both would be too much though.
06:22:43 <MarvinPA> yeah
06:28:14 <galehar> oups, I made a little mistake. 6d(pow)/10 isn't the same as 6d(pow/10). Average damage per turn is 36.3, not 39.
06:28:43 <galehar> total 217.8. With AC20 -> 26.3/turn, total 157.8
06:29:25 <galehar> so about 3x fire storm
06:29:57 <galehar> shouldn't we aim for 2x fire storm for total damage over 6 turns?
06:30:49 <MarvinPA> hm, sounds reasonable
06:31:26 <MarvinPA> easy enough to try it and keep tweaking, if need be
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06:36:01 <galehar> a 20% reduction to base damage should do it. 6d(power)/12. Average is 30, reduced to 20 with AC, total 120.
06:37:01 <galehar> 180 against monsters with no AC.
06:37:11 <galehar> kilobyte: around?
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06:45:01 <galehar> hi elliptic!
06:48:14 <elliptic> hi!
06:49:11 <galehar> we were just talking about tornado's damage
06:49:21 <galehar> care to read the backlog and give us your opinion?
06:51:31 <elliptic> I forget, how do I read the backlog?
06:53:23 <ais523> elliptic: http://tozt.net/crawl
06:53:25 <galehar> there's a link in the topic
06:53:45 <elliptic> oh, right, thanks :)
06:55:38 <elliptic> I seem to remember kilobyte felt that tornado should ignore AC for some flavour reason
06:56:16 <elliptic> I agree though that having it be unresistible and undodgeable and AC-ignoring is bad
06:56:20 <elliptic> shouldn't be all three :)
06:57:07 <elliptic> there is also some question about the mechanics of applying the AC, since tornado does varying damage each turn depending on the duration of the turn
06:57:32 <galehar> hmm, that's right.
06:58:00 <elliptic> I guess you apply AC to the duration 10 number and only then scale the damage for the real duration, or something like that
06:58:12 <elliptic> I don't actually know what clouds do about this
06:58:44 <galehar> I'll have a look
06:59:37 <elliptic> IMO best would be to reduce actual damage substantially (2x fire storm damage over 6 turns sounds reasonable, or it could go lower) and revert the weird thing with tornado giving a negative spell enhancer for all your spells while in effect
07:00:46 <elliptic> comparing the actual damage to fire storm is a bit tricky of course, I see lots of numbers in the backlog but of course it depends on stuff like AC and resists
07:01:18 <galehar> If we apply AC, then the relative damage to fire storm depend on monster's AC. With my proposal, it's 2x firestom against AC20 and 3x firestom against AC0
07:01:44 <elliptic> and don't forget that tornado still has a larger radius of effect than firestorm :)
07:02:10 <elliptic> as I said, I think kilobyte didn't feel like tornado should be weak against AC
07:02:26 <elliptic> so I'd be hesitant in making it that AC-dependent
07:03:30 <galehar> <+elliptic> I agree though that having it be unresistible and undodgeable and AC-ignoring is bad
07:03:32 <elliptic> at least, it would be strange if an earth spell (LRD) and an air spell (tornado) were the two most AC-dependent spells :)
07:03:40 <galehar> we can't really remove one of the other 2
07:04:01 <elliptic> yeah, I just don't think the AC dependence should be larger than that of firestorm or whatever
07:04:13 <elliptic> best if it was 2x firestorm against any AC
07:04:39 <elliptic> obviously this is a matter of how the AC reduction is actually working
07:07:08 <galehar> I don't see how it would be possible. Making AC effectiveness depend on spell duration is very weird.
07:07:46 <elliptic> well, at duration 6 turns or whatever
07:08:04 <elliptic> or whatever the duration is at 100 power
07:08:31 <galehar> 5.6
07:09:18 <galehar> I think balancing it for 6 turns (at power 120) is reasonable.
07:09:42 <elliptic> so you could make the damage reduction from AC be the usual random2(AC+1) or whatever on average over 3 turns
07:09:52 <elliptic> so over 6 turns, AC would get applied twice
07:09:54 <elliptic> something like that
07:10:20 <elliptic> wouldn't depend on spell duration
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07:10:47 <galehar> ok, I'll run some numbers and see what I can work out
07:32:56 <galehar> 6d(power)/15 with 2xAC over 6 turns. Average base damage per turn is 24.2. Against AC0, total is 145 (FS is 65 or 42 resisted). Against AC20, total is 125 (FS is 55, 32 resisted).
07:33:05 <galehar> (FS damage doesn't count cloud damage)
07:35:41 <galehar> this is a reduction of 1/3 of the base damage.
07:40:40 <elliptic> it could probably be nerfed further but that sounds like a good start to me :)
07:41:22 <galehar> don't forget that this is the best case, ie: full radius
07:41:37 <galehar> if walls reduce the tornado, damage is reduced.
07:41:58 <elliptic> yeah, usually you can avoid that though
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07:43:08 <galehar> 6d(power)/16. base damage per turn: 22.6. Total 135 (115 against AC20)
07:47:05 <galehar> 6d(pow)/18 -> 20.1/turn. Total 121 (101 against AC20).
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08:37:29 <galehar> I've made a spreadsheet
08:37:31 <galehar> https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?hl=en_US&hl=en_US&key=0AqvhLOPFHpiMdE1oRUx5UzhUNXRMX1ZRU1ppZGpkcFE&output=html
08:38:28 <galehar> the fire storm damage varies a lot with AC if you take into account cloud damage
08:58:54 <elliptic> the firestorm resisted damage is for rF+++, right?
08:59:26 <elliptic> I think it is best not to worry about the cloud when comparing damage
08:59:48 <elliptic> or at least you should just count one turn of the cloud
08:59:57 <elliptic> since firestorm is mainly about single-turn damage
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09:01:06 <elliptic> for purposes of comparison, what is n for tornado currently?
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09:41:27 <casmith789> I think tornado should get nerfed to something like 1/3 damage
09:41:35 <casmith789> because it is present over such a large area
09:51:35 <MarvinPA> elliptic: n is 10 i think
09:51:50 <elliptic> oh, wow
09:52:08 <elliptic> so currently tornado does 218 damage total over the 6 turns against any AC
09:52:10 <MarvinPA> [11:43:03] <+galehar> damage is 6d(power)/10
09:52:10 <MarvinPA> [11:43:10] <+galehar> duration is 40+pow/6
09:52:14 <MarvinPA> yeah
09:52:33 <MarvinPA> [12:28:19] <+galehar> oups, I made a little mistake. 6d(pow)/10 isn't the same as 6d(pow/10). Average damage per turn is 36.3, not 39.
09:52:33 <MarvinPA> [12:28:47] <+galehar> total 217.8. With AC20 -> 26.3/turn, total 157.8
09:52:33 <MarvinPA> [12:29:28] <+galehar> so about 3x fire storm
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09:53:09 <MarvinPA> (that was for if AC were to be applied)
09:53:27 <elliptic> n=15 or 16 or so with AC-checking (and remove the negative enhancer) looks like something reasonable to try
09:53:59 <MarvinPA> sounds decent, yeah, just a matter of figuring out how best to get it to check AC i guess
09:54:19 <MarvinPA> oh and you already suggested averaging it over 3 turns
09:54:28 <MarvinPA> or something?
10:01:28 <galehar> yes he did
10:01:45 <galehar> resisted damage is for rF+++ indeed
10:04:20 <galehar> so currently, power is scaled with time, then damage is 6d(pow)/10
10:05:34 <galehar> so we can try 6d(pow)/15 - random2(AC/3+1)
10:05:41 <galehar> then scale the result with time
10:06:43 <elliptic> yeah, that sounds like a reasonable enough way to implement the AC I guess
10:23:04 <galehar> !tell kilobyte I suggest this for tornado's damage: 6d(pow)/15 - random2(AC/3+1). And remove negative enhancer. See backlog for discussion. What do you think?
10:23:05 <Henzell> galehar: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
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10:46:37 <elliptic> by the way, can we have grey dracs not fumble in water?
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10:47:28 <elliptic> being able to move through deep water is... rather lackluster as is given that they are slow and can't melee
10:48:45 <MarvinPA> i was quite tempted to try and implement some sort of petrification cloud, now that there's player petrification too
10:48:55 <MarvinPA> and rework grey dracs as earth-themed with that
10:49:12 <MarvinPA> but not having them fumble makes sense for how they work currently at least, yeah
10:49:52 <elliptic> earth-themed drac would be cool, yeah
10:59:35 <galehar> they can walk in deep water because of unbreathing. They don't swim.
10:59:48 <galehar> If we make them swim, wouldn't they be too much like merfolk?
11:01:38 <galehar> anyway, have to go
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11:56:15 <Wensley> so I'm using ubuntu for a change, is there a way to make the terminal display the current git branch that you're in, like msysgit does?
12:12:41 <Zaba> there probably is, if msysgit does it somehow
12:13:34 <Zaba> by terminal, do you mean the shell prompt, or the window title, or what?
12:13:55 <Zaba> I don't know what msysgit's like
12:16:10 <Chousuke> Wensley: yeah: http://eric.lubow.org/2009/system-administration/git-branch-name-in-your-bash-prompt/
12:18:21 <Wensley> Chousuke: thanks!
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13:37:35 <monqy> regarding oklobs having "a limited ability to dodge", why do they have 0EV?
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16:04:05 <Gretell> Stable branch on tiles.crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.8.0-170-g5a2df49 (32)
16:07:00 <kilobyte> monqy: 0 EV is different from -inf EV
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16:14:29 <Wensley> by the way: just tried out bmh's abyss, and it's fantastic
16:14:44 <Wensley> I'm gushing
16:15:36 <Napkin> WebtTiles fixed - hopefully
16:15:41 <Napkin> g'night o/
16:15:46 <Wensley> good night
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16:27:10 <Wensley> really, I'm having so much fun wandering around the worley abyss, it's so bizarre
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17:03:39 <galehar> hey
17:07:21 <due> hi
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18:04:11 <Kautzman> I apologize if this is a topic that's been discussed before, but has there ever been talk about smoothing out the first few levels of the game?
18:07:52 <Wensley> how do you mean?
18:08:03 <due> smoothed out in what manner?
18:24:22 <Kautzman> there are a number of things in the early portions of the game that are a bit strange
18:24:25 <Kautzman> For example
18:24:51 <Kautzman> Hobgoblins with basic clubs can two shot casters and even some melee characters with too much of a problem
18:25:14 <Kautzman> And the accuracy of everything is relatively low, making combat rather unpredictable
18:25:25 <Kautzman> It honestly plays a lot like Final Fantasy I :P
18:26:03 <Kautzman> This wouldn't be so much of a problem, but you also have a total of zero tools to deal with things like getting pinched between a hobgoblin and just about anything else
18:26:32 <Kautzman> The problem is compounded by the need to kite if you want to preserve the character for whatever reason because HP regen is so slow (Which is fine)
18:27:33 <Kautzman> I'm not sure there is a magic bullet to fix it but I honestly believe the first five levels of the game are more difficult to get through than the last 5.
18:27:57 <Wensley> Kautzman: for many combos the early game is likely a death sentence, yes. but not all combos are intended to have an easy time of the early game.
18:29:14 <Kautzman> True, and that's fine, but I guess my primary issue I take with the early game is that if and when shit hits the fan, you have very few or zero options to do anything about it other than pray to the gods of the RNG
18:29:37 <Wensley> well it's certainly better to lose that level 3 character than that level 25 character, yes?
18:30:11 <Wensley> I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that this is a part of crawl that I think people would be resistant to change
18:30:26 <due> Kautzman: You *always* have options.
18:30:27 <Kautzman> Oh absolutely, and I think the end game is brilliantly done to that end.  I don't think I've ever lost characteres post level 15 and couldn't attribute it back to my own faults
18:30:28 <Wensley> I've often seen it argued that the early game is the best part of crawl
18:30:34 <Kautzman> Hmm
18:30:41 <due> There are vary rare instances where you do not have options and death is unavoidable.
18:30:56 <Kautzman> Egh, I really disagree with that, at least for the first few levels
18:30:56 <due> But most of those related purely to D:1 or D:2, and we don't really have a problem with that.
18:31:03 <Kautzman> Right
18:31:05 <due> Dying on D:1, D:2 is common.
18:31:06 <galehar> you have to be creative with whatever you found
18:31:15 <due> And cheap!
18:32:24 <Kautzman> I guess the perception stems from a  couple things:  PC and NPC accuracy is terrible, making combat unpredictable and Damage proportional to Max HP is really high
18:32:30 <Kautzman> Relative to the rest of the game
18:32:50 <Kautzman> And really, if it's going to be out of whack anywhere, the beginning is the best part to have that.
18:32:58 <Wensley> Kautzman: breeds interesting situations, which, unfortunately, you are not always able to survive 100% of the time. but much of the fun of the early game is in coping with a limited selection of tools and prioritizing your resources
18:33:04 <Wensley> *randomness breeds
18:33:48 <Wensley> galehar: how does the recent HP change affect early game HP?
18:37:40 <due> Kautzman: There are easy ways to combat it; tryt different combinations, run more, Spriggans, gods, etc.
18:38:16 <Kautzman> By the time you get a god, the game has usually stabilized :P
18:39:02 <Kautzman> And that's not to say it's unmanagable.  The comps characters I'm fimiliar with have a pretty reasonable success rate in the opening of the game.
18:39:19 <galehar> Wensley: it doesn't. Or very little. Most of the change affect the late game.
18:39:48 <elliptic> kautzman: so what would make the early game better in your opinion? making it so that every game is winnable? that's unlikely to happen, I think
18:39:59 <Kautzman> Na, doesn't have to be winnable
18:40:12 <Kautzman> Just offer stability to the opening
18:40:45 <Kautzman> Maybe start off with 2x the HP, with gains reduced so it's normalized at level 5~ again.
18:40:49 <Kautzman> I'm not sure
18:40:55 <Kautzman> I think it's a pretty difficult problem to solve
18:41:23 <elliptic> if you started out with 2x the HP, that would make almost every game winnable
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18:42:45 <Kautzman> But would that mean that the only 'opportunity' to lose exists in the mid - late game?
18:43:01 <elliptic> no
18:43:28 <Kautzman> Err, mis-stated that.  Would the only opportunity to lose exist in the current early game?
18:44:16 <due> Kautzman: You're operating on the premise that it should not be possible for you to die in the early game -- whether by inaction, bad decision, or just plain bad luck.
18:44:35 <elliptic> currently early game is responsible for the vast majority of "unavoidable" deaths
18:44:58 <due> And only a small percentage of "unavoidable" deaths are truly unavoidable.
18:45:17 <elliptic> I do think that the d:1 dangers could be toned down a bit somehow, but it is good for the early game to be a bit tricky
18:45:26 <Kautzman> due:  I think you should be able to die, but I think there should also be some solution to chased by a gnoll pack on D2
18:45:34 <Pedjt> I think the early game would probably be improved if early combat skill (fighting, weapons, dodge, armour, etc) was a little more meaningful :)
18:45:41 <elliptic> usually a gnoll pack on d:2 shouldn't kill you, actually :)
18:45:48 <due> Kautzman: Dive? Berserk? Teleportation?
18:45:49 <elliptic> a gnoll pack on d:1, now...
18:46:06 <elliptic> pedjt: it is meaningful!
18:46:16 <elliptic> at least weapon skill is
18:46:22 <Kautzman> I don't think you are ever in a bad spot with Berserk :P
18:46:24 <Pedjt> elliptic: you are very heavily at the mercy of the rng though!
18:46:33 <Wensley> fighters with long blades are pretty sturdy
18:46:38 <due> it's a roguelike
18:46:48 <elliptic> pedjt: who is?
18:47:00 <due> if we removed all aspects where "random" results in "occasionally unfair" then it would cease to be a roguelike.
18:47:36 <kilobyte> Wensley: how is a falchion better than the alternatives?
18:47:48 <Wensley> kilobyte: not sure, I always pick the falchion :P
18:48:10 <elliptic> kilobyte: I'd say falchion is best for fighter, or trident and drop the shield
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18:48:36 <Kautzman> due:  I agree, but compared to the rest of the game, the beginning is rather unstable.  Deaths do not occur in 2 or 3 turns in the late game unless you really messed something up while they aren't that uncommon in the early game
18:48:49 <Pedjt> elliptic: there isn't much margin for error, even a small string of bad luck could prove extremely dangerous, eg a hobgoblin or something
18:49:18 <Wensley> Kautzman: I believe the idea is that occasionally-unfair randomness should be present, but that having it in the endgame would be much more annoying
18:49:34 <Pedjt> (though I find this depends heavily on whether or not you let them pick up something to throw at you)
18:49:39 <Kautzman> Wensley:  I can agree with that
18:50:08 <due> There is unfair randomness in the end game, you are just better equipped to handle it.
18:50:08 <elliptic> it is basically impossible to get rid of the luck-dependent nature of d:1 completely unless you make it really easy
18:50:53 <due> elliptic: which also introduces discontinuity between the hardness of D:1 nd everywhere else, making everything else seem harder, etc.
18:51:04 <Pedjt> Is that really a bad thing? The only difference between the early game and later parts is that you have few/no escape options
18:51:13 <Kautzman> Elliptic:  Perhaps, and to that end, maybe it's best it be left alone.  But I really do believe there are better solutions.
18:51:15 <elliptic> I do think that a couple of small changes to d:1 would be good... tweaks like eliminating d:1 gnoll packs
18:51:57 <kilobyte> yeah... can't do them unless by speed kiting or as a berserker
18:52:12 <kilobyte> and Trog is thoroughly, utterly broken
18:52:15 <Pedjt> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:background:Bonus_Gear
18:52:23 <Pedjt> I also suggested this though nobody seemed to like it
18:52:37 <Kautzman> Berserk is hilariously good
18:52:41 <Kautzman> Actually
18:52:47 <Kautzman> Every Trog activated ability is really strong
18:52:48 <due> elliptic: don't even need to disable D:1 gnoll packs
18:53:08 <due> elliptic: just reduce band chances/sizes to 0 on absdepth 0, unless spawning as ood.
18:53:23 <due> one gnoll on D:1? fine!
18:53:23 <Pedjt> Kautzman: Trog has to make up for not having any casting at all so that is hardly surprising
18:53:37 <kilobyte> a berserking stone giant just snuffs in any (potentially hostile!) greater servants or daevas
18:53:40 <elliptic> yeah, one gnoll rarely would be fine
18:53:50 <Kautzman> Pedjt:  This is very true.
18:54:17 <Pedjt> kilobyte: I've seen a berserk troll wipe out a titan in the time it took me to take one action
18:55:08 <due> "yay haste"
18:55:56 <Kautzman> haste is getting knocked to 1.5x Speed, yes?
18:56:03 <Pedjt> was knocked to
18:58:05 <due> berserk is still extremely powerful in monster form
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19:52:47 <Ashenzari> When using the ` key to repeat and action a force_more_message will not trigger. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4049) by LexAckson
20:09:07 <due> let's dump `
20:18:32 <kilobyte> due: it often saves a lot of tedium
20:18:45 <due> and lots of bugs, too
20:24:36 <CIA-60> 03kilobyte * rea39d5f7f773 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Store only modifiers to hp/mp rather than the whole value.
20:24:46 <CIA-60> 03kilobyte * r5703661a310c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (26 files): Untie {inc,set}_{m,h}p() from {inc,set}_max_{m,h}p().
20:24:46 <CIA-60> 03kilobyte * rcfca9c0b2490 10/crawl-ref/source/player.cc: Fix pearl dragon hide not providing rN+ like its finished version does.
20:32:50 <Pedjt> Pearl dragon hide is supposed to provide +rN?
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20:36:00 <Wensley> I didn't even realize you could wear hide without turning it into armor
20:37:33 <Pedjt> you can but their AC sucks and they don't usually provide the resistance/benefit (??)
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20:43:31 <kilobyte> Pedjt: the latter used to be true in the past
20:43:53 <Wensley> would be nice if we could start armor-using draconians with a dragon hide rather than a boring robe :P or is that too macabre?
20:44:31 <Pedjt> kilobyte: oh I see
20:44:35 <kilobyte> it didn't make sense though -- protecting from fire/draining/yellow bunnies comes not from being nicely shaped but from the material
20:44:42 <kilobyte> Wensley: Tiamat
20:47:23 <Wensley> is that an endorsement of the idea?
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21:15:44 <due> Wensley: that doesn't make sense, also overpowered.
21:15:48 <due> enchant armour scrolls are not *that* rare.
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22:19:29 <st_> it wouldn't be overpowered if it were a steam dragon hide or something
22:20:08 <st_> not that I think it's a good idea particularily
22:37:56 <Wensley> eh, I just feel like fighters should start with some armor other than robes
22:39:51 <elliptic> but fighters apparently aren't actually defined by being heavy armour guys
22:39:54 <elliptic> see FeFi
23:01:11 <valrus> midgame air magic is a conj wasteland
23:01:23 <valrus> oh hi ##dev
23:01:31 <valrus> (oops)
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23:28:04 <due> hm, dpeg should be back sometime soonish
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