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00:22:26 <Gretell> BountyHunterSAx (L2 FeBe)  (D:1)
00:41:35 <Ashenzari> Maxwell's Silver Hammer still appears in the Book of Earth (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4426) by Thasero
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01:11:44 <cbus> napkin, oy mate you there?
01:11:50 <Napkin> moin cbus
01:11:57 <Napkin> what's up?
01:12:22 <cbus> napkin, @dump is borked :)
01:12:28 <cbus> napkin, (because you moved trunk -> 0.9 I think)
01:12:30 <Napkin> @dump Napkin
01:12:31 <Gretell> http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.8/Napkin/Napkin.txt
01:12:36 <Napkin> looks fine to me :>
01:12:45 <cbus> 08:10:24 < ryzol> @dump ryzol
01:12:46 <cbus> 08:10:24 < Gretell> Can't find URL base for character dump.
01:13:08 <Napkin> i know it is, but i probably cannot fix it
01:13:12 <cbus> ahh k :)
01:13:15 <Napkin> it needs more intelligence :D
01:13:20 <cbus> hehe :)
01:13:22 <cbus> I can have a look later
01:13:24 <cbus> when I get home
01:13:51 <cbus> I think I was the one that wrote it :)
01:13:55 <cbus> mind mailing it?
01:14:07 <Napkin> something like.. if 0.9 game and morgue older than x-y-z, then look at locationA, otherwise look at locationB
01:14:21 <cbus> I don't have the settings to access the shell left (if I even have it on the server) :)
01:14:30 <Napkin> cbus: http://git.develz.org/?p=gretell.git;a=summary
01:14:52 <cbus> thanks
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01:17:15 <Napkin> @dump ryzol
01:17:15 <Gretell> http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/0.9/ryzol/ryzol.txt
01:17:30 <cbus> nice :)
01:17:34 <Napkin> well, that i was able to fix quickly
01:17:38 <Napkin> but nevertheless
01:17:42 <cbus> yeah
01:17:48 <cbus> needs logic to handle verisons :)
01:17:50 <cbus> versions
01:17:52 <Napkin> the fact, that 0.9 ran as "crawl-svn" while i was on vacations
01:18:37 <Napkin> and now.. off to work o/
01:20:12 <cbus> enjoy :)
01:20:17 <cbus> what do you work with?
01:20:23 <Gretell> soul (L16 SpEn) ASSERT(next_level > 0) in 'skills.cc' at line 618 failed. (D:25)
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02:40:41 <Gretell> soul (L18 SpEn) ASSERT(next_level > 0) in 'skills.cc' at line 618 failed. (Swamp:4)
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04:19:11 <Euph0riaX> Do helmets impede spellcasting vs wizard hats/caps, etc..
04:20:59 <Euph0riaX> oops,sorry.
04:22:54 <kilobyte> only things that make it hard to move precisely do -- those with an EV penalty.  They make it harder to hit with weapons, etc, too.
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05:13:12 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever.
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05:21:45 <dpeg> hi
05:27:21 <dpeg> what a level, four shops, a bazaar, a trove
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05:37:21 <ghallberg> dpeg: o.
05:37:54 <dpeg> trove asks for 6 blinking scrolls, though
05:38:03 <ghallberg> haha
05:39:04 <due> dpeg: heh, you brought that upon yourself ;)
05:39:11 <dpeg> true!
05:39:20 <dpeg> and I will get in there :)
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06:36:12 <dpeg> gold acquirement 670
06:38:24 <due> ttants: armour acquirement, awesome acquirement?
06:38:43 <CIA-34> 03rriegs * rb59bdcd05394 10/crawl-ref/source/travel.cc: Fix autoexplore to not shortcut consideration of exploration targets when inappropriate to do so. Also, indentation fixes.
06:38:54 <CIA-34> 03galehar 07mimics * r366746c9adf5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Take note when revealing a feature mimic which has been noted before.
06:38:54 <CIA-34> 03galehar * r03445fa3fecf 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Fix an overflow error in _inc_gift_timeout() (GreatZebu #4362).
06:38:54 <CIA-34> 03akbecker * r4e30d9a921f7 10/crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc: Allow ammo gifts to use any ammo type the player can make use of.
06:38:55 <CIA-34> 03galehar 07mimics * r574aea57fe63 10/crawl-ref/source/dgn-overview.cc: Use the branch_is_unfinished() function in one more place.
06:38:55 <CIA-34> 03galehar * rd33b8490cc0f 10/crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc: Simplify.
06:38:55 <CIA-34> 03galehar 07stone_soup-0.9 * r6cae79dec337 10/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc: Fix an overflow error in _inc_gift_timeout() (GreatZebu #4362).
06:44:11 <dpeg> due: was that for me?
06:46:22 <due> dpeg: no, just a general statement :)
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06:46:53 <dpeg> I needed some money for a wand of teleportation.
06:47:04 <dpeg> The good thing about gold acquirement is that you know what you will get :)
06:48:23 <Gretell> soul (L22 SpEn) ASSERT(next_level > 0) in 'skills.cc' at line 618 failed. (Vault:2)
06:56:48 <Gretell> Maniacuz (L27 DEEE) ASSERT(feat_is_solid(feat)) in 'beam.cc' at line 1114 failed. (Tar:7)
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07:06:43 <dpeg> Pat Rankin spoke today in r.g.r.n, mentioning the "mythical development version".
07:06:58 <due> Oh?
07:07:02 <due> and what was said about it?
07:07:18 <dpeg> he mentioned a change about secret door detection on the plane of water
07:07:53 <dpeg> didn't say anything about releases, of course
07:08:58 <due> clearly, nethack has taken another step towards metatextuality.
07:09:21 <due> now they are developing a mythos /about/ the game itself, rather than developing the game! the game for them is convincing other people that there is a game!
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07:12:50 <bhaak> you have hard evidence that the yeti exists in nethack, why shouldn't nethack exist within nethack?
07:13:49 <due> crawl is just a game that exists inside of the universe that exists inside of nethack.
07:13:53 <due> oh my god it's like the matrix!
07:13:56 <due> take the red !
07:14:31 <bhaak> it only works with pills ... and pills only exist in ... Slash'Em!
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07:22:24 <galehar> !lm soul crash -log
07:22:25 <Sequell> 27. soul, XL22 SpEn, T:41223 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/soul/crash-soul-20110822-114820.txt
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08:31:38 <Euph0riaX> ohoh, webtiles down for repair?
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08:42:45 <Euph0riaX> Are webtiles down for repair atm?
08:56:32 <galehar> Euph0riaX: don't know if it's intentional, but it is down indeed.
08:56:42 <galehar> ??mulching
08:56:43 <Henzell> mulching[1/3]: The base chance of breakage is 1/X. X is: 3 for curare, darts. 4 for stones, arrows, bolts. 6 for non-curare needles. 10 for javelins. 25 for large rocks. Throwing nets only take damage when struggled against and are destroyed at -8. Other thrown things such as hand axes aren't technically missiles, and won't break.
08:57:16 <galehar> how about reducing chance of breakage to 1/5 for stones, arrows and bolts?
08:57:44 <galehar> makes hunter have less ammo trouble
08:57:49 <dpeg> galehar: why?
08:57:54 <dpeg> they can enchant their ammo
08:58:35 <galehar> well, they can't rely too much on ranged attacks in the early game
08:59:05 <dpeg> in my test runs, I always found sufficient bolts/arrows
08:59:07 <galehar> also, it would make it easier to bring back AM with +0 ammo. They had a lot of ammo trouble.
09:00:08 <dpeg> galehar: is the ammo scarcity your own experience, or reported?
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09:00:32 <galehar> reported
09:00:54 <dpeg> let us wait for feedback from elliptic and Marvin, please
09:00:58 <dpeg> I will ask them about the matter.
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09:02:15 <galehar> yeah, it's not urgent
09:02:31 <galehar> we can wait until we actually do bring back AM
09:02:39 <dpeg> that too
09:14:25 <galehar> ok, I'm looking at the hunter weapon selection patch and trying to figure out the amount of ammo to give
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09:15:06 <galehar> currently, javelin gets 6, large rocks 5, bullets 30 and bolts/arrows 25
09:16:02 <galehar> you should get an average of x shots per ammo (accounting for +1). Javelin: 40, Large rock: 100, the rest 16.
09:16:54 <galehar> so, large rocks get an average of 500 shots, javelins 240, bullets 480 and bolts/arrows: 400
09:17:08 <dpeg> not good
09:17:20 <dpeg> in particular since javelins and rocks also hit harder, right?
09:17:55 <galehar> hmm right, since they hit harder, I guess you don't need to throw as much
09:18:11 <galehar> but maybe large rocks are less accurate too
09:18:47 <dpeg> yes, need to incorporate more data
09:21:32 <MarvinPA> well bullets/bolts/arrows are also a lot more common to find more of in the dungeon
09:22:18 <dpeg> MarvinPA: what is your opinion on the matter? Any changes needed?
09:23:53 <MarvinPA> hmm, i don't play ranged combat classes very much so i don't know much about the balance though
09:24:30 <galehar> What voker57 (writer of the hunter weapon selection patch) did is: rocks:5, javelins:5, darts:10 and bullets/arrows/bolts:25
09:24:47 <galehar> he also completely removed throwing nets for some reason
09:25:32 <MarvinPA> i think the existing numbers seem not too bad though, if weapon selection is being implemented it seems reasonable to stick fairly close to the current ammo numbers?
09:25:58 <MarvinPA> definitely should be more than just 10 darts, if they're a choice :P
09:26:05 <dpeg> the throwing nets are useful!
09:26:23 <galehar> MarvinPA: yes, I agree. Better not too many changes at once.
09:26:37 <galehar> so darts:30
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09:26:43 <galehar> javelins back to 6
09:27:17 <galehar> having same for bullets and arrows/bolts makes sense, so 25 for all is good
09:28:19 <galehar> currently, throwing nets are only for throwers. 2 for SE, HO, Mf and 3 for Tr and Og.
09:28:32 <ghallberg> galehar: Might aswell do 25 darts or 30 b/b/a?
09:29:01 <galehar> darts have the highest mulch and lowest damage
09:29:09 <ghallberg> Ah well
09:29:21 <galehar> more ammo is the only reason anyone would ever choose it
09:29:28 <ghallberg> ok
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09:30:32 <galehar> so, should we keep throwing nets only for throwers or give them to everybody? 2 or 3?
09:31:19 <MarvinPA> i'd say keep them just for throwers, probably
09:39:31 <dpeg> yes, for skill reasons
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10:02:01 <galehar> dpeg: regarding #4351, you reported that you when you successfully complete a tutorial, the next lesson isn't selected by default. Do you confirm?
10:08:45 <Euph0riaX> does axe skill help with throwing axes, or is that purely a throwing skill?
10:10:19 <CIA-34> 03dolorous * rfef13ffeb9c4 10/crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc: Add spacing fix.
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10:19:11 <galehar> Euphoria: only throwing helps
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10:23:42 <Euphoria> Would be great to combine the skills somehow when throwing axes.  :)
10:25:35 <Euphoria> and likewise javelins, etc..  Just a thought.
10:30:24 <Keskitalo> One thing that could be interesting would be to remove throwing non-consumables.
10:30:43 <Keskitalo> That would run against intuition, but I'm not sure if people really throw axes etc that much.
10:30:59 <Keskitalo> (I'm not sure if being able to do so adds much to the game.)
10:31:22 <Keskitalo> With throwing brand, they're kind of nice though. But a pile of javelins of returning is still more interesting.
10:33:53 <RichardHawk> Ammo being an acquirable option would solve a lot of the woes
10:34:42 <Keskitalo> If you got a dam/acc bonus from Axes/Polearms/Short Blades skill, that would give a free ranged sidearm to weapon users of those classes. If it was a small bonus to not do this, it'd be neglible enough to not include.
10:35:06 <Keskitalo> But if there was some fun effect (like the planned weapon moves/perks for melee) that would result from high related skill, that could be quite fun.
10:36:58 <Keskitalo> Wasn't there an ammo acquirement patch applied just now? Or was that gifting, I forget..
10:39:03 <greatzebu> it was a change to ammo acquirement, but only god gifts can acquire ammo as far as I know
10:40:06 <greatzebu> I'm not sure why ammo isn't one of the options when you read a scroll of acquirement
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11:04:58 <Keskitalo> greatzebu: It isn't?
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11:06:42 <greatzebu> looks like the options are weapon, armour, jewellery, book, staff, wand, misc, food, gold
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11:07:26 <Keskitalo> I'm surprised. :)
11:07:53 <greatzebu> yeah, when I went to test my patch I was kind of surprised that ammo wasn't an option
11:08:10 <greatzebu> I pretty much always go for either armour or wand, so I guess I never noticed
11:08:16 <Keskitalo> I cn't help but to think that it's just an oversight..
11:08:50 <Keskitalo> I'm pretty sure not many people really played rangers before the recent interface fixes and boosts.
11:09:09 <greatzebu> it certainly seems like a reasonable thing to be able to acquire
11:10:27 <Keskitalo> I can't remember ammo acquirement ever coming up in balance discussions (especially as breaking the balance), I've personally assumed that it exists and thought that ammo-gifting gods aren't necessary to play a ranger, because you could acquire :P
11:11:00 <Keskitalo> (I've won one HEAM of Fedhas, but you get so many arrows from Elf that I never had issues.)
11:11:04 <greatzebu> it definitely doesn't seem overpowered
11:11:34 <ghallberg> Keskitalo: Why doesn't oka gift only armour?
11:11:47 <ghallberg> And why does trog gift ranged weaps?
11:11:57 <Keskitalo> ghallberg: No idea.
11:12:16 <ghallberg> Trog gifting ranged is so anti-berzerk
11:13:04 <ghallberg> And Oka not gifting weaps would add som emore differentiation between them.
11:13:07 <greatzebu> it would be easy enough to make a patch to add ammo acquirement, but I didn't consider doing it because the ammo patch was my first contribution to crawl so I didn't want to mess with too many things at once
11:13:16 <Keskitalo> greatzebu: If you're already submitting patches, a patch for ammo acquirement would probably be great to have. I haven't been an active dev for a while and I can't promise that I could look at it, maybe someone else..?
11:13:21 <Keskitalo> heh :)
11:13:55 <greatzebu> it would probably take 10 minutes to write, I'll try and give it a try sometime today
11:14:21 <Keskitalo> Great!
11:16:24 <Keskitalo> I just had to download a build and take a look; it really isn't there.
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11:41:23 <Napkin> about webtiles: http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/webtiles-at-0-9-finally/comment-page-1#comment-697
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12:14:14 <Euphoria> Keskitalo: I have monsters throwing axes and clubs all the time, lol   I figured they must have some throwing value.
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12:16:47 <Euphoria> I would think that ammo should come along with a weapon that fires ammo, when reading a scroll of acquirement.  Afterall, you don't get to pick the weapon you get, do you?  And if it's a ranged weapon, it won't do much good without ammo.
12:17:35 <Euphoria> Getting a ranged weapon in an area where there isn't any ammo in sight would be a pain.
12:23:46 <Euphoria> <sgiratch> This must be a bug. If I first throw the confuse spell on someone. and then Ensorcelled Hibernation they run around confused and asleep...
12:25:05 <MarvinPA> sleepwalking!
12:28:53 <Ashenzari> Allow players to acquire ammunition (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4427) by GreatZebu
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13:45:46 <Euphoria> bah, webtiles is freezing up again.
13:53:10 <Euphoria> ??maud
13:53:11 <Henzell> maud[1/2]: No spells. The two most notable things about Maud are that she looks inexplicably like a rodent and that she (like hell knights, frederick, and margery) has a chance of coming with a kick-ass weapon. Associated with forgetfulness in NetHack, reference from Alfred Tennyson's poem, Maud.
13:53:26 <Euphoria> ??maud[2]
13:53:27 <Henzell> entarex[1/1]: No, there isn't really an Entarex.
13:53:36 <Euphoria> @?maud
13:53:37 <Gretell> Maud (05@) | Speed: 10 | HD: 13 | Health: 118 | AC/EV: 0/10 | Damage: 24 | Res: 06magic(86) | Chunks: 07contaminated | XP: 2167.
13:54:41 <Euphoria> sorry
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14:44:37 <Ashenzari> No zot portal on d27 (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4428) by sousousou
14:50:30 <galehar> wow this is a nasty bug
14:50:48 <galehar> the good news is that it's reproducible
14:51:19 <galehar> I loaded his save file, and when I do &^R, there's still no downstairs on D27
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14:57:48 <Mu_> is there any way to equip a monster with gloves in a vault definition
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15:22:07 <greatzebu> I submitted a patch to prevent tso penance for reflecting poison on to monsters. I'd appreciate feedback if someone who's more familiar with the codebase wants to take a look at it.
15:28:36 <galehar> so you just removed the blame but still give full XP
15:29:21 <galehar> my opinion is that such kills should be considered "indirect kills". No blame and half XP, like summons.
15:29:33 <galehar> like #2572
15:32:45 <greatzebu> So there are two issues: should you get penance for poison on reflection, and how much xp should you get for reflection kills
15:32:47 <galehar> reflection, kills from inner flame, and charmed monster killed by hostiles should be "indirect"
15:33:13 <greatzebu> sure, this only deals with the penance issue
15:33:23 <galehar> maybe confused monsters killing themselves too
15:34:39 <greatzebu> I'm not really familiar with how XP gains are determined so I didn't try to mess with that
15:34:47 <galehar> I think indirect kills should be treated like kills by summons (or a generalization of). So half XP (+ proportional to damage done)
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15:59:12 <Euphoria> like confusing monsters that drown themselves
16:00:47 <Euphoria> webtiles is freezing up.  regularly.  Is it a bug or just a side effect from high server load?  Happening to others as well.
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16:43:57 <Gretell> lerugray (L18 DsEE) ASSERT(next_level > 0) in 'skills.cc' at line 618 failed. (Vault:7)
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17:00:26 <galehar> !lm * crash -log
17:00:27 <Sequell> 1448. lerugray, XL18 DsEE, T:52894 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/lerugray/crash-lerugray-20110822-214352.txt
17:06:24 <CIA-34> 03galehar * r2ee50a48bb95 10/crawl-ref/source/ (itemprop-enum.h newgame.cc ng-restr.cc ng-setup.cc): Formatting fixes and some simplification.
17:06:34 <CIA-34> 03galehar * r32198e9e871c 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Guarantee one turn to act when player is awaken from sleep.
17:06:34 <CIA-34> 03galehar * r8f32aaac5597 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Give one more javelin and a lot more darts to hunter.
17:06:35 <CIA-34> 03galehar * re1dc048fa937 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files): Improve the reporting of paralysis source in morgue and notes.
17:06:35 <CIA-34> 03voker57 * rf29142407dab 10/crawl-ref/source/ (itemprop-enum.h newgame.cc ng-restr.cc ng-setup.cc): Added weapon choice for hunters
17:06:35 <CIA-34> 03galehar * rba39096783dd 10/crawl-ref/source/ng-setup.cc: Give 2 throwing nets to all hunters with throwable missiles.
17:12:22 <galehar> how about keeping the guards on V:8?
17:13:04 <galehar> it's as simple as adding them to the exclusion list in mons_class_can_use_stairs
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17:14:08 <CIA-34> 03flodiebold * r7d8f2b0cafc7 10/crawl-ref/source/tileweb.cc: Fix a "non-door tile" assert in Webtiles.
17:14:31 <galehar> yay for webtiles stability!
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17:17:32 <Wensley> all for v:8 guards staying on their level
17:17:37 <MarvinPA_> well, they do spawn elsewhere occasionally, like as trove guards (and maybe a v entry vault?)
17:17:39 <Wensley> what sort of guards abandon their post?
17:17:45 <MarvinPA_> but yeah it seems fine to me anyway
17:18:05 <evilmike> stair dancing vaults:8 isnt even the best strategy all the time though
17:18:08 <CIA-34> 03flodiebold 07stone_soup-0.9 * ra9a5154b97ec 10/crawl-ref/source/tileweb.cc: Fix a "non-door tile" assert in Webtiles.
17:18:24 <galehar> we can add the patrolling flag to the ones defined in vaults
17:18:26 <evilmike> pulling them up in small groups can be a valid strategy, and sometimes it can get you in trouble. doesn't seem to be that bad?
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17:20:06 <valrus> I got mad killed doing that
17:20:21 <valrus> prolly cause I was stupid about it though
17:20:29 <valrus> oh hey evilmike
17:21:58 <evilmike> hello
17:22:10 <Wensley> maybe once you take the stairs down to v:8 it would drop trellises over the staircases until you get the rune
17:22:20 <Wensley> I think that would solve the problem more elegantly
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17:24:06 <evilmike> why does v:8 need improvement? it's one of the better parts of the game, interesting, usually sufficiently challenging
17:24:38 <evilmike> there are a lot of other areas that are actually in need of improvement (eg hive)
17:27:56 <MarvinPA_> hive is easy to improve, remove it and never look back :P
17:29:01 <valrus> but but but SpEn
17:29:06 <evilmike> gotta agree there, a lot of people seem to need the food though
17:29:33 <evilmike> although i suspect they could get by if they used food stores instead of the hive
17:30:03 <valrus> if they have them, yes
17:30:23 <Wensley> I still advocate that wiki idea where the hive is a portal vault and the bees are eating all the honey so you have to race to the end
17:31:46 <evilmike> its the only branch i haven't entered this tournament
17:39:11 <Wensley> is there a compile-time option in tiles to turn off mouse control?
17:46:51 <Gretell> Argoroth (L1 DsAK) ASSERT(num_visits == 0 && levels_seen == 0 || num_visits > 0 && levels_seen > 0) in 'place-info.cc' at line 43 failed. (D:1)
17:47:14 <Gretell> Argoroth (L1 DsAK) ASSERT(num_visits == 0 && levels_seen == 0 || num_visits > 0 && levels_seen > 0) in 'place-info.cc' at line 43 failed. (D:1)
17:47:33 <Gretell> Argoroth (L1 DsAK) ASSERT(num_visits == 0 && levels_seen == 0 || num_visits > 0 && levels_seen > 0) in 'place-info.cc' at line 43 failed. (D:1)
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17:51:39 <due> That's an interesting one.
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