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00:26:09 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-326-g4d2a4b1 (32)
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01:03:47 <cbus> is there any change to trog gifting coming up? he is only giving anti magic branded stuff pretty much
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01:55:14 <Ashenzari> When picking up,  _ doesn't give help (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4430) by nubinia
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02:05:39 <Keskitalo> cbus: Lots of antimagic is intentional, is it too much?
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03:10:39 <Ashenzari> Invisible silenced squares (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4431) by nubinia
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03:26:34 <cbus> keskitalo, I've only gotten one weapon not branded with it
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03:27:02 <cbus> and I'm level 18 and about to start fetching runes (done with vault except for last level0
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03:29:13 <kilobyte> do you guys receive tons of spam about tiles too? :p
03:29:21 <kilobyte> (the ceramic kind)
03:29:45 <galehar> nope
03:31:05 <galehar> regarding monster threat level, I think it would be nice to colour the names in the monsters list.
03:31:31 <galehar> I'd like to use trivial = darkgrey, easy = lightgrey, tough = red, nasty = magenta
03:31:51 <galehar> but it would be nice if Ash's detect monster colour matches. Can I change them to that?
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03:31:56 <kilobyte> could turn to a fruit salad which people would complain about, but not a bad idea
03:32:17 <kilobyte> not sure about darkgrey
03:32:18 <galehar> that's why the base colour (easy) is lightrgey
03:32:53 <galehar> well, darkgrey is for harmless monsters
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03:39:41 <kilobyte> hrm, looking at that color set of glyph colours in the game, it's terrible
03:40:54 <galehar> what? The ones I've suggested above? You mean they look ugly together?
03:41:09 <kilobyte> darkgrey is hard to see as it's always out of LOS, lightgrey is bad on default floor or in stone areas, magenta is a bit hard to see while we want it to stand out as much as possible
03:41:41 <kilobyte> the colours you propose might work well on the monster list, though, just not in the play area
03:42:45 <galehar> alright, so let's use that for monster list and keep ash's monster detection as is
03:47:56 <due> galehar: I like a "flash difficulty" mode.
03:48:30 <galehar> due: what do you mean?
03:48:33 <due> galehar: as in, you can hit a key and the numbers onscreen are replaced with (relevantly coloured) numbers; when you move, it's cleared.
03:49:49 <galehar> like toggling glyph's colour in the dungeon view?
03:51:29 <kilobyte> due: I really wonder if we could replace { with â‘  â‘¡ â‘¢ â‘£
03:51:49 <kilobyte> the latter is not present in all fonts, but { sucks so badly
03:52:27 <due> galehar: kinda, yeah, but replacing the monster character with a number -- the number is relative to the other numbers on screen.
03:52:48 <due> Whch means we only need to rate monsters 0->9, and so minor variances in Hp, etc, don't matter.
03:53:09 <galehar> due: there's only 4 threat levels
03:53:35 <galehar> kilobyte: sounds great
03:53:43 <kilobyte> due: you mean stretching the scale to only what you see on the screen?
03:53:44 <galehar> we don't have to support all fonts, do we?
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03:53:55 <kilobyte> galehar: not in WGL4 so it can't be the default :(
03:54:21 <galehar> let me guess. windows console?
03:54:26 <kilobyte> (WGL4 is not strictly what is supported by fonts on most platforms, but a good approximation)
03:55:40 <kilobyte> it's Microsoft recommendation for a minimal set of glyphs that should be included in all fonts which aim to fit a good part of the world
03:56:11 <galehar> kilobyte: about my implementation for monster threat levels, I'd like your opinion on storing a monster with a duplicate mid in props (see mislead.cc:72 and mon-cast.cc:2477)
03:56:16 <kilobyte> Apple has a similar list which is (nearly) a superset of these
03:56:41 <galehar> Maybe it would be better to #define FAKE_MONSTER_ID -1 and use that instead
03:57:51 <kilobyte> galehar: what is that misled mid?  Is it static?  Is it different for all monsters?
03:57:59 <galehar> the stored monster is used in mon-info.cc:232 and 238
03:58:17 <galehar> each monster has his own. and it's static
04:00:04 <kilobyte> ah, I see
04:00:36 <due> kilobyte: yes, basically
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05:44:38 <CIA-34> 03kilobyte * r5baea3003c7c 10/crawl-ref/source/webserver/ (server.py static/jquery.tablesorter.min.js): Whitespace fixes.
05:44:48 <CIA-34> 03kilobyte * r69520781c6e4 10/crawl-ref/ (8 files in 3 dirs): Additional char dump spam: "spell_usage".
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05:58:51 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever.
06:02:06 <kilobyte> hmm, ① ② ③ ④ are not in WGL4, but °¹²³ are (no ⁴, though)
06:03:53 <due> kilobyte: I can see 0123
06:03:57 <due> But not the others.
06:04:03 <due> In... Deja Vu Sans Mono.
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06:08:11 <kilobyte> due: are they distinct from non-superscript versions enough?  0⁰1¹2²3³
06:08:48 <due> to me, yes
06:09:02 <ghallberg> yeah here too
06:09:28 <ghallberg> I see â‘  â‘¡ â‘¢ â‘£ too
06:09:35 <ghallberg> with Deja Vu Sana Mono...
06:11:15 <kilobyte> ghallberg: you either have a newer version, or use a terminal with font fallback (like nearly all Unix ones that don't use bitmaps)
06:11:53 <ghallberg> kilobyte: Yeah it's probably some fallback, but I never understood urxvt-font handling (or .Xdefaults)
06:12:29 <ghallberg> The only character that fails to render is  卐
06:12:57 <kilobyte> works for me :p
06:13:02 <ghallberg> not here :P
06:13:07 <ghallberg> ªłðħđ€œ↓”œđł→µðn©œ↓ł®ħœ↓ł€ħðjĸßłđjŋ
06:13:10 <ghallberg> those all work ;)
06:13:23 <ghallberg> apperantly my terminal wants to be politically correct
06:13:57 <kilobyte> what's wrong with a random chinese character that resembles a widely-spread religious symbol?
06:14:41 <due> I'm usin roxterm
06:14:54 <ghallberg> kilobyte: It doesn't render here :P
06:14:57 <kilobyte> there's 5489752589237 religions and organizations that use swastikas, and the Nazi one differs a lot: unlike most (all?), it is rotated 45 degrees, and almost always rendered on a 5x5 grid
06:15:28 <ghallberg> ☭ ✡ 卐 ☪
06:15:39 <ghallberg> Is the topic of some random channel...
06:16:06 <kilobyte> due: roxterm uses libvte which uses pango, so it can use any font you have installed
06:16:35 <ghallberg> Anyway, I really want that swastika in my terminal.
06:16:40 <ghallberg> ugly squares...
06:16:49 <Zaba> I use xterm with terminus, and can see superscript numbers fine
06:17:29 <due> What is delightful is how much your UTF-8 is fucking up my terminal ;)
06:17:41 <due> But my issue is probably not running irssi/screen in utf-8.
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06:18:58 <ghallberg> hehe
06:19:03 <ghallberg> UTF-8 4L
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06:21:04 <kilobyte> due: screen has buggy handling of characters above U+f
06:21:35 <kilobyte> due: screen has buggy handling of characters above U+FFFF and combining ones, but none of those we mentioned fall outside these ranges
06:46:07 <CIA-34> 03galehar * r1e9ca8fa8386 10/crawl-ref/source/ (l_crawl.cc player-stats.cc player.cc state.cc state.h): A lua hook to tell if we're currently being prompted for level up stat gain.
06:46:07 <CIA-34> 03galehar * rcef332eb06a3 10/crawl-ref/source/l_moninf.cc: Make monster threat level accessible from lua.
06:46:07 <CIA-34> 03galehar * rb8e195ffc201 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Colour the monster list according to threat level.
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07:09:33 <dpeg> galehar: got a moment?
07:09:53 <galehar> yep
07:10:08 <dpeg> what is your plan for 0.10?
07:11:08 <galehar> mimics, polish skill training, some AI, some screen layout improvement
07:11:29 <galehar> variable abyss speed
07:11:32 <dpeg> no big features from your side? (which is fine)
07:11:42 <dpeg> what about octopodes?
07:11:45 <galehar> oh, maybe permanent buffs
07:11:53 <dpeg> permanent allies?
07:12:29 <dpeg> !tell MarvinPA Players are complaining the FE book on the forum. What do you think?
07:12:30 <Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let MarvinPA know.
07:12:31 <galehar> ah yeah, I'd like to work on permanent allies too, but now it's too much, I have to priorize
07:12:39 <dpeg> absolutely, no question
07:13:02 <dpeg> ah, I see you mean buff spells
07:13:09 <galehar> yes
07:13:15 <dpeg> do we have a good concept for those?
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07:13:28 <galehar> for octopodes, I'd like to improve the AI to limit reaching abuses so we can give it to octopodes
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07:13:44 <dpeg> what are the abuses?
07:13:50 <galehar> deep water
07:13:51 <dpeg> also kilobyte did something on reaching for 0.9
07:14:01 <dpeg> ah, so that monsters step back
07:14:08 <galehar> yes
07:14:13 <dpeg> that will also be good in other cases
07:14:27 <galehar> yep.
07:14:52 <dpeg> galehar: you see this as the biggest stumbling block before octopodes can go in? That's good, because it is a single, hopefully manageable issue.
07:15:52 <galehar> I see it more as giving them another standout feature rather than removing a stumbling block
07:15:58 <dpeg> ok
07:16:20 <dpeg> btw, I made that food reform implementable and we got ryak's patch
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07:16:30 <galehar> oh, we also need to figure out how to handle ring merging
07:16:34 <dpeg> it's not exactly what was ordered but shall we use it nonetheless?
07:16:45 <dpeg> I am certain that chunk reduction should be done in any case
07:16:53 <galehar> yes, we have to review and test Ryak's patch
07:17:05 <galehar> dpeg: ok for chunk reduction
07:17:55 <dpeg> the latter is easy: half of what's given now, rounded up
07:18:06 <galehar> maybe his implementation is good enough, or maybe we'll have to rewrite some of it to get closer to the original design
07:18:27 <galehar> but we should test it
07:18:27 <dpeg> galehar: yes, I cannot judge from just staring at the differences of the designs
07:18:42 <galehar> also, we have 2 patches for 2 different golem design
07:18:55 <dpeg> galehar: you and I also have different preferences :)
07:19:08 <galehar> :)
07:19:10 <dpeg> halving chunk numbers will affect some spells, right?
07:19:28 <galehar> yes. simulacrum, sublimation of blood
07:19:32 <dpeg> galehar: perhaps we can get both golems in trunk, so that players can play them after the tournament?
07:19:52 <dpeg> galehar: those spells need to be reviewed after change... by someone who is proficient in using them (not me)
07:20:09 <dpeg> for octopodes, player feedback was very useful
07:20:15 <galehar> yep, that's what I was thinking (for golems), but I haven't looked at the patches yet
07:21:03 <dpeg> !seen kilobyte
07:21:03 <Henzell> I last saw kilobyte at Wed Aug 24 11:21:35 2011 UTC (59m 28s ago) saying due: screen has buggy handling of characters above U+FFFF and combining ones, but none of those we mentioned fall outside these ranges on ##crawl-dev.
07:21:19 <kilobyte> dpeg: meow?
07:21:41 <dpeg> do you have a plan for 0.10?
07:21:45 <dpeg> and hi!
07:22:11 <kilobyte> quite a few, but no idea how I'll stand time-wise
07:22:17 <dpeg> new job?
07:22:30 <dpeg> what would those be?
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07:23:35 <kilobyte> the big one is translations
07:23:44 <dpeg> oh, wow
07:23:55 <dpeg> kilobyte: one question: is the unicode project finished?
07:24:19 <kilobyte> two stumbling blocks here: 1. there's quite a few mprf() code changed in Cryp71c's branch, it would be bad to introduce conflicts there,
07:24:24 <dpeg> in other words, can we start using dots and double dots on glyphs? :)
07:24:30 <kilobyte> and 2. we'd need unicode in tiles
07:24:55 <dpeg> Cryp71c has the demons?
07:24:59 <kilobyte> webtiles and console are finished -- there's a minor issue of character dumps on Windows at most
07:25:06 <kilobyte> no, combat rewrite
07:25:09 <dpeg> ah
07:25:13 <dpeg> !seen Cryp71c
07:25:13 <Henzell> I last saw Cryp71c at Wed Aug 10 00:28:08 2011 UTC (2w 11h 57m 5s ago) parting ##crawl with message chanpart.
07:25:17 <dpeg> not good
07:25:38 <galehar> preparing the code for translations would be great indeed. I've got a lot of french volunteers.
07:25:42 <dpeg> kilobyte: you are using a lot of unicode substitutes in your init file, right?
07:25:51 <kilobyte> for Unicode in tiles I'd need pango/fontconfig, that's a huge increase in contribs
07:26:05 <Mu_> what's happening to golems?
07:26:14 <dpeg> kilobyte: would you mind shipping a list of them, so that players can easily try them out?
07:26:18 <galehar> dpeg: regarding permanent buffs spells, here is a new design (easy to implement): https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=24604#p24604
07:26:19 <dpeg> Mu_: two patches
07:26:42 <dpeg> Mu_: for two competing designs
07:27:04 <galehar> the only thing I don't know if it is better to reduce MP regeneration, reduce max MP or both.
07:27:27 <Mu_> oh, i see, a race
07:27:52 <dpeg> galehar: I'll read and comment
07:27:55 <dpeg> Mu_: yes!
07:28:46 <kilobyte> are you talking about reducing max MP by the full cost of the spell?  That's be a lot.
07:29:00 <kilobyte> for golems, we had more than two proposals, are the patches described somehow?
07:29:08 <dpeg> Personally, I'd love another slow species (which of the monster golems are slow?), but I also never understood why players dislike Nagas
07:29:24 <galehar> dpeg: about golems, I prefer Curio's nutrition but there's a lot of things I like in TwilightPhoenix design too.
07:29:24 <dpeg> kilobyte: yes, type "golem" into the search box of the wiki
07:29:27 <dpeg> four proposals there
07:29:44 <dpeg> galehar: yes, I can imagine that a merge will be best
07:30:07 <dpeg> kilobyte: ah, sorry, not sure about the patches -- have to look at Mantis
07:30:12 <galehar> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:species:golem
07:30:18 <galehar> patches are for design 3 and 4
07:31:47 <galehar> kilobyte: no, I'd reduce the MP to the average MP (taking into account spell durations and MP regeneration)
07:33:00 <dpeg> galehar: would spells like Swiftness only use the system?
07:34:14 <galehar> all self-buff spells can be cast with Z for permanent casting or z for normal
07:34:58 <dpeg> hm, I am (again) seduced by sanka's proposal that buffs shouldn't be permanent but only cast when needed
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07:35:55 <kilobyte> there's that idea of transmutations being permanent, too
07:36:17 <Keskitalo> Remove all buffs from infinite sources!
07:36:19 <Keskitalo> (ducks)
07:36:52 <galehar> kilobyte: yeah, the new system can be applied to transmutations too.
07:37:08 <kilobyte> Keskitalo: you mean, all of Charms and most of Tmut?
07:37:17 <dpeg> galehar: "I promise you an elegant solution for 0.10." -- daring! :)
07:37:35 <dpeg> kilobyte: I agree on the transformations
07:37:42 <kilobyte> galehar: no, the proposal is different.  You can't cancel them at will, there's a separate spell that you need to memorize and cast.
07:37:53 <galehar> But I'd like to also increase the restrictions to animal form. No throwing, no evaporate and no wands. So perma forms would be mostly for statue and lich.
07:38:06 <dpeg> hands?
07:38:39 <galehar> kilobyte: wow. That's a more radical one.
07:39:25 <dpeg> kilobyte: an Undo Form spell?
07:39:34 <kilobyte> not sure who proposed it first, but even in the first version it already mentioned that the Lich form is irrevocable
07:39:46 <Keskitalo> kilobyte: Not a serious proposal, although I think it'd solve the problem of tediously casting all the buffs in preparation of the unknown.
07:39:50 <kilobyte> currently that's a minor detail hardly anyone knows about
07:40:34 <kilobyte> ie, if you're in Ice Form, you can turn to a spider, but from a lich, you need two turns: first to return to your own self and only then you can go to a different form
07:41:35 <galehar> 3 since cancelling a form takes 2 turns
07:41:41 <galehar> which should be changed btw
07:42:49 <kilobyte> most players who can cast Necromutations tend to stay in that form forever so it's mostly the tedium of recasting, and versatility of being able to turn back when facing holies or when you want to Borgnjor or DDoor
07:42:59 <kilobyte> galehar: yeah, an easy change
07:45:14 <kilobyte> there'd be an issue of wearing two rings of wizardry and drinking !oBrilliance, but that can be balanced by messing with difficulty of casting
07:45:52 <kilobyte> there's just one problem I have no idea how to solve: going Ash and reskilling Necromancy away after transforming
07:47:38 <dpeg> kilobyte: like the brilliance/wizardry, wouldn't that be accounted for by implicit recasting?
07:48:49 <kilobyte> dpeg: these are two different proposals, one for Charms, one for Tmut
07:48:56 <dpeg> I see
07:49:12 <dpeg> and you couldn't use the one for lich form because it is supposed to be permanent...
07:50:15 <kilobyte> yeah... your meat is gone forever
07:51:16 <dpeg> kilobyte: there would be some prototypical penalties if you lose the lich form talent (eg from reskilling): instead of losing the form, you rot
07:51:33 <dpeg> i.e. do a recast roll, if missed, rot
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07:51:49 <dpeg> "You don't feel really comfortable in this lich form."
07:53:23 <ghallberg> I'm thinking golem #4 could be reworked into some kind of rock elemental race?
07:53:57 <dpeg> ghallberg: possibly... the flavour can be shifted a bit.
07:54:49 <ghallberg> dpeg: Because both the races are cool, but we don't want two golems (I guess?)
07:55:41 <kilobyte> we could even have both: remember Mountain/Deep Dwarves, Deep/High/Sludge/Grey/Vanilla Elves, etc
07:55:57 <kilobyte> ghallberg: in the long run, probably not
07:56:23 <ghallberg> Yeah, but they seem so dissimilar in their flavour
07:56:30 <Keskitalo> That sounds cool :)
07:56:30 <dpeg> ghallberg: but both proposals also have drawbacks, which is why galehar suggested amalgamation
07:56:47 <ghallberg> I didn't read enough to see the suggestion, sorry :)
07:56:53 <dpeg> It'd be awesome to get them into trunk after the tournament, so that players can have a go.
07:57:26 <kilobyte> I kind of fail to see golem 3 as viable.  They're mummies with no advantages but a list of weaknesses, including such a rotten one as slowness.
07:58:04 <galehar> yeah, golem 3 balance is bad. too weak.
07:58:54 <dpeg> galehar: wasn't golem 3 the one championed by you?
07:58:57 * dpeg is confused
07:59:04 <galehar> 4's balance is better, but I prefer sustaining on magic items and healing on wands rather than stones and walls.
07:59:49 <galehar> I like 3's nutrition, but it doesn't have to be so crappy at magic.
08:00:08 <dpeg> I like eating stones, because they exist right from D:1.
08:01:07 <galehar> well, magic items too
08:01:17 <kilobyte> (+Pro, -Con) vs mummies: +no holy vuln, -restoration, -Necro boost.  -slow, -increased spell cost, -armour restrictions, -blowguns, -slow/no heal when hungry, -food!!!, -vulShatter, +MR, +good armour, -"abysmal magic skills"
08:01:48 <Gretell> profreshinal (L5 HuEE) ASSERT((x < mx) && (y < my) && (x >= 0) && (y >= 0)) in 'tileweb-text.cc' at line 80 failed. (D:1 (ZotDef))
08:02:56 <galehar> hmm, right. unliving isn't much better than undead.
08:03:40 <kilobyte> s/-slow/-slow!!!!!/
08:03:53 <kilobyte> +no Dispel Undead vuln
08:04:02 <kilobyte> not a big difference though
08:06:46 <kilobyte> golem 4 is better in balance, but somewhat worse in theme
08:07:23 <dpeg> have both proposals no innate healing?
08:09:39 <ghallberg> kilobyte: Agreed, an important part of golems is the magical animation.
08:09:57 <ghallberg> #4 feels like a troll from discworld.
08:10:11 <ghallberg> Haha, that would be a fun race!
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08:10:21 <ghallberg> need to cool your head or you get -5 int :P
08:10:21 <kilobyte> dpeg: golem 4 doesn't say a word about no healing, golem 3 has slowheal normally, regular at full, none at hungry
08:10:37 <kilobyte> ghallberg: hand ballistas :p
08:10:58 <ghallberg> yay
08:11:36 <ghallberg> kilobyte: Needs to keep refrigeration or ice storm around at all times, or loses ability to cast them.
08:12:10 <dpeg> kilobyte: I see. Was just wondering... since it seems crucial for the golem to eat non-food stuff, one possibility would be to get rid of the hunger mechanic, and instead have them (only!) heal from what they eat.
08:12:14 <dpeg> MarvinPA: hi!
08:12:17 <galehar> yeah, seems the healing part was lost in the transition from the tavern to the wiki. Golem 4 has no healing. Heals by eating stone or by merging with a wall at the cost of max HP (I don't like it).
08:12:34 <galehar> golem 3 has a healing mechanism similar to vampire
08:12:34 <dpeg> the wall merging is not good, I agree
08:12:42 <kilobyte> agree
08:13:13 <dpeg> galehar: the healing stuff could be done verbatim with the magical tools
08:13:15 <galehar> so 3 for nutrition/healing, 4 for the rest?
08:14:08 <MarvinPA> dpeg: hey
08:14:09 <Henzell> MarvinPA: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
08:14:25 <dpeg> galehar: don't understand
08:14:34 <galehar> 3 eats magical items for nutrition and regenerate normally at full, slowly at satiated and not at all when hungry
08:14:57 <galehar> it can eat wand  charge for fast healing (to replace !HW)
08:15:07 <dpeg> but that is so Vampire-like
08:15:33 <dpeg> why not give them no innate regeneration (including MP), and have them eat stuff to regenerate?
08:15:56 <galehar> what no MP regen?
08:17:10 <dpeg> new idea!
08:17:10 <Gretell> profreshinal (L2 HuEE) ASSERT((x < mx) && (y < my) && (x >= 0) && (y >= 0)) in 'tileweb-text.cc' at line 80 failed. (D:1 (ZotDef))
08:17:16 <galehar> no HP regen, why not. But it's so Deep Dwarf-like :P
08:17:28 <dpeg> that's why I slapped no-MP regen onto it :)
08:17:51 <galehar> I don't think that would work
08:17:58 <dpeg> only depends on the numbers
08:18:20 <dpeg> when I proposed DD, Erik didn't believe a no-healing species would work
08:18:51 <dpeg> and then we had to nerf damage shaving twice, iirc
08:19:10 <kilobyte> they'd need large stashes of glowing weapons and run to them
08:19:53 <dpeg> depends on what they eat, but that's an issue, yes
08:21:08 <ghallberg> If branded stuff gives more HP, you could carry around a few of those (like perma-food) and then eat other stuff as it drops (like chunks)
08:22:46 <Eronarn> <@dpeg> why not give them no innate regeneration (including MP), and have them eat stuff to regenerate?
08:23:02 <Eronarn> in the D&D setting Spelljammer, there was one ship that ran off of magical items
08:23:23 <Eronarn> you would put one in a furnace, and it would burn hotter depending on how good of a magic item it was
08:23:41 <Eronarn> and the duration of the burn would likewise depend on it
08:23:52 <Eronarn> so a scroll doesn't do much for you, and lasts very short
08:24:48 <Eronarn> the difference would be that you can't just cram a ton of stuff (i.e., no eating a stack of arrows)
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08:25:30 <Eronarn> so in other words a stomach-like mechanic, but not hunger :)
08:25:45 <kilobyte> galehar: about your colouring of the monster list: it conflicts with existing colours (allies, unchivalric attacks)
08:26:03 <galehar> ghallberg: yes, that's the idea. But sucking the magic out of weapons and armour takes time (like eating food), so not in combat. Eating wand charges uses a single turn, so can be used to replace !HW
08:28:34 <Gretell> profreshinal (L6 HuEE) ASSERT((x < mx) && (y < my) && (x >= 0) && (y >= 0)) in 'tileweb-text.cc' at line 80 failed. (D:1 (ZotDef))
08:28:47 <galehar> I wouldn't say that it conflicts with friendly colour. It's handled just like for Ash's detection.
08:29:03 <galehar> what's the colour of evil_attacks? (the option isn't even documented)
08:30:52 <galehar> looks like it's red by default
08:32:10 <galehar> isn't the background colour of the glyph already changed for unchivalric attacks?
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08:34:27 <kilobyte> no, and it can't be as you need to know why it's unchivalric
08:36:40 <galehar> well, the evil attacks overwrite the difficulty colour anyway. Just have to fix the colour conflict. Yellow for dangerous?
08:37:16 <galehar> or lightred? (but light/dark can be hard to tell)
08:37:43 <kilobyte> interesting thing about golem 4 (from the tavern post, didn't look at the code): it has full immunity to rot and stat drain.  This makes contamination glow funny: you suffer miscasts and hp damage from explosions but not the things that usually make it so deadly.
08:38:58 <kilobyte> galehar: are there terminals where dark and light red look very similar?  I know of dark/light blue but not red.
08:39:27 <Eronarn> kilobyte: this can be changed
08:39:41 <Eronarn> it used to be that undead had the same thing going on
08:39:45 <Eronarn> glow was made worse for them to compensate
08:40:21 <galehar> kilobyte: maybe not. Let's go for lightred then.
08:42:01 <galehar> magical glow could do a lot of things to a magical golem. But it's certainly something that needs to be addressed.
08:42:57 <kilobyte> sure, but it could potentially be an interesting perk
08:50:45 <galehar> so, should we try a merge of the 2 designs, or add them both to trunk (as iron and stone golems for example) to test them out and merge after?
08:57:56 <ghallberg> galehar: Sounds good, let's see what's fun /not fun about each one
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09:01:37 <Gretell> Fusha (L10 CeCj)  (D:9)
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09:08:05 <kilobyte> !lm Fusha type=crash -log
09:08:06 <Sequell> 15. Fusha, XL10 CeCj, T:20507 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/Fusha/crash-Fusha-20110824-140133.txt
09:11:19 <edlothiol> is it possible to get at the log for that zotdef crash above? !lm profreshinal crash -log gives an old one instead
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09:13:23 <kilobyte> not sure, at least there's none in the usual place
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09:13:46 <kilobyte> ah, the one above
09:13:55 <kilobyte> !lm profreshinal zotdef crash -log
09:13:56 <Sequell> 3. profreshinal, XL6 HuEE, T:577 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/profreshinal/crash-profreshinal-20110824-132832.txt
09:14:20 <kilobyte> 404-compliant :(
09:14:27 <kilobyte> empty directory
09:14:29 <Zaba> s/trunk/0.9/?
09:15:16 <kilobyte> hah, it's there
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09:17:17 <edlothiol> ah, thanks :)
09:50:13 <CIA-34> 03flodiebold * rab350512ff8a 10/crawl-ref/source/tileweb.cc: Fix Webtiles crashing in ZotDef with show_gold_turns.
09:52:06 <CIA-34> 03flodiebold 07stone_soup-0.9 * r77be2dd00e02 10/crawl-ref/source/tileweb.cc: Fix Webtiles crashing in ZotDef with show_gold_turns.
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10:53:34 <MarvinPA> anyone mind if i post https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2406&p=27658 as an implementable on mantis? unless it's really easy to do and someone here wants to volunteer :P
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11:07:49 <galehar> I believe it is really easy to do
11:08:02 <galehar> can't right now, but will try later tonight
11:08:08 <MarvinPA> cool
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11:10:04 <MarvinPA> oh actually yeah
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12:00:08 <CIA-34> 03MarvinPA * r4112403894c7 10/crawl-ref/source/abyss.cc: Don't duplicate banished uniques when they follow you out of the abyss
12:00:08 <CIA-34> 03MarvinPA * r26524ff776c8 10/crawl-ref/source/acquire.cc: Allow viewing the known items list during acquirement
12:00:24 <CIA-34> 03MarvinPA * rff7f8bbcdccc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (book-data.h spl-data.h): Experimentally tweak the FE book again
12:00:33 <CIA-34> 03MarvinPA * rfd92a8574cec 10/crawl-ref/source/ (14 files in 8 dirs): Remove vipers
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12:55:03 <Gretell> giovform (L6 DgWz) ERROR in 'tileview.cc' at line 922: non-door tile (Ossuary)
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13:07:07 <dpeg> !seen kilobyte
13:07:08 <Henzell> I last saw kilobyte at Wed Aug 24 14:15:16 2011 UTC (3h 51m 52s ago) saying hah, its there on ##crawl-dev.
13:07:43 <dpeg> !tell kilobyte There is a question about Chinese Crawl on the forum. Would you mind to give a (short) reply about difficulty and scope? Thank you!
13:07:43 <Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
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13:53:56 <dpeg> sk e
13:53:59 <dpeg> sorry
13:54:20 <dpeg> some gods are underplayed in the tournament
13:54:47 <dpeg> I wonder if the species/backgrounds rule should also apply to gods
13:56:34 <CIA-34> 03galehar * r892b19d97214 10/crawl-ref/source/ (stairs.cc trap_def.h traps.cc): Clear traps from stash tracking and map knowledge when they are destroyed.
13:56:41 <CIA-34> 03galehar * rdf459dd09d70 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-info.cc: Move dangerous monster colour to lightred to avoid overlap with evil attacks.
13:59:19 <ghallberg> Ok: Random idea from a commentthread:  (why have different commands for wearing armor and putting on rings?)
14:00:56 <dpeg> ghallberg: this question has been discussed 15 years ago on Usenet :)
14:01:13 <dpeg> I guess you want to know the answer?
14:01:13 <ghallberg> Well I guess so. Doesn't mean I have heard the answer ;)
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14:01:30 <ghallberg> Nah I'll jus go read all of the usenet-archivse
14:01:35 <dpeg> <3
14:01:45 * ghallberg is too young for this stuff :(
14:01:53 <dpeg> tsk tsk
14:01:59 <dpeg> puppies
14:02:46 <dpeg> While having the same command for those actions (or, in a more radical proposal, a univeral "use" command which accepts all kinds of items) is certainly easier to learn for the new player, it becomes the more cumbersome solution really soon.
14:03:11 <MarvinPA> seperate commands for wearing armour and rings isn't nearly as bad as seperate commands for wearing things and taking them off, i have no idea why equip_unequip isn't default :P
14:03:13 <dpeg> The reason is this: if you press "W", you see all your armour. This is a short list. Same with "P" and jewellery.
14:03:27 <dpeg> A common command would lead to a lot more cognitive trouble.
14:03:54 <ghallberg> dpeg: I'm thinking a three column layout, armour, jewelry, weapons.
14:04:04 <dpeg> MarvinPA: because Greater Powers threatened to resort to violence (Erik and Darshan, I am looking at you)
14:04:17 <dpeg> ghallberg: it is still a waste
14:04:27 <MarvinPA> yes, i remember bringing it up before and greensnark saying he hated it for some reason :P
14:04:33 <dpeg> I agree that having the _pairs_ W/T and P/R is questionable, as MarvinPA points out.
14:04:41 <dpeg> Having commands for item categories is good design.
14:04:54 <ghallberg> Maaaaybeee.
14:05:03 <dpeg> MarvinPA: greensnark has been baptised with Nethack's holy water.
14:05:06 <ghallberg> Too small of an issue for me to argue about though :)
14:05:22 <dpeg> ghallberg: an issue that got thoroughly discussed through the ages.
14:05:40 <dpeg> I bet archeologists have found Sumerian stone tablets discussing the matter.
14:05:57 <dpeg> MarvinPA: good catch on the acquirement code
14:06:19 <ghallberg> dpeg: Too small an issue, too large a resistance then :P
14:06:28 <bhaak> http://roguelikedeveloper.blogspot.com/2011/08/is-user-interface-design-holding.html
14:06:29 <dpeg> MarvinPA: btw, SA sports a how-to list on acquirement -- do you think it is that fixed? Personally, I disagree, but I wallow in doing unusual things.
14:07:08 <MarvinPA> hm... i wouldn't say it's fixed entirely, although it's much improved
14:07:57 <MarvinPA> probably misc is the only really bad option now, and staff acquirement is a little spoilery (you're almost guaranteed to get specific caster staves depending on your skills)
14:08:05 <ghallberg> bhaak: Yeah, that doesn't really apply to a "real" roguelike though.
14:08:06 <bhaak> only because something has been discussed to death that doesn't mean it has been resolved :)
14:08:07 <dpeg> now dtsund is gone... he changed acquirement substantially in this fork
14:08:17 <MarvinPA> everything else i think i would happily recommend depending on the situation
14:08:24 <bhaak> ghallberg: ha :-)
14:08:24 <dpeg> MarvinPA: that is good
14:08:35 <ghallberg> bhaak: "Not only that, but whenever you pick up an item, it automatically is placed in the correct slot if it is better than what you're already using, replacing any existing item which is converted to gold."
14:08:42 <dpeg> MarvinPA: so we should try to improve miscies, eh?
14:08:52 <MarvinPA> food being a particularly rare recommendation, but i guess occasionally people need it to avoid starving or for fedhas usage :P
14:08:59 <MarvinPA> yeah
14:09:09 <dpeg> yes
14:09:09 <bhaak> ghallberg: that mechanism makes a game not a real rl?
14:09:17 <dpeg> same with gold, I used it in my last decent game
14:09:35 <ghallberg> bhaak: Well, the part where it seems simple to determine which item is better
14:09:38 <bhaak> iirc, jeff lait had this in one of his games and everything jeff does is good :)
14:10:05 <dpeg> ghallberg: I believe there are games with a use-approach. You may try Incursion. I cannot see it in Crawl, although I'd be open for killing R and T as long as Darshan and Erik aren't watching.
14:10:33 <MarvinPA> two whole keys freed up for exciting new commands! :P
14:10:34 <dpeg> bhaak: this is true, but it still depends on the context... Jeff's games tend to be small in scope.
14:11:00 <dpeg> MarvinPA: not only that... two less important commands to learn for new players. That matters a lot in my opinion.
14:11:05 <MarvinPA> definitely, yeah
14:11:07 <ais523> dpeg: I merged W/P and R/T in AceHack, and also have a general use command (i, which puts up a menu like Crawl does upon selecting an item)
14:11:25 <dpeg> MarvinPA: I'll make a quick poll among active devs, what they think about it.
14:11:35 <MarvinPA> sounds good
14:11:41 <ghallberg> That means you would press W, and all the equipped stuff would show aswell?
14:11:54 <dpeg> ais523: you can do the same in Crawl: i for inventory, press item slot, choose action. But it is inevitably one more letter than the action-item approach.
14:12:00 <dpeg> ghallberg: already does
14:12:05 <ghallberg> dpeg: hmm ok
14:12:09 <ais523> dpeg: indeed, it's mostly there to help out newbies who don't know the command
14:12:18 <MarvinPA> ghallberg: try out equip_unequip = true in the options
14:12:26 <MarvinPA> that's basically the behaviour i think should be default :)
14:12:31 <ghallberg> cool
14:12:35 <ghallberg> Trying it soon.
14:12:35 <dpeg> ais523: yes, having the feture is good. It just shouldn't replace the other approach.
14:12:37 <bhaak> ghallberg, dpeg: of course. you usually can't retrofit something like that on to an existing game. but it's certainly worth a consideration. and maybe the realization that you went the wrong way. i promise, i will finally kill #invoke, and if it is the last thing i'll do in unnethack
14:13:07 <ais523> bhaak: I merged it with #rub, and breaking items
14:13:12 <ais523> and igniting potions
14:13:22 <ais523> and something else too where I can't remember what it was
14:13:37 <ais523> making a general V command for "unusual/secondary use of item"
14:13:44 <ghallberg> What is the option for automatic manual skill?
14:14:13 <MarvinPA> default_manual_training = true
14:16:31 <ghallberg> Was that recently added to the default option file?
14:16:46 <ghallberg> Because I'm certain I couldn't find it the other day...
14:16:49 <dpeg> bhaak: I agree but I don't see what this has to do with the verb-noun vs noun-verb decision.
14:16:50 <ghallberg> Thanks :)
14:17:07 <dpeg> MarvinPA: do you happen to know if it is documented?
14:17:22 <MarvinPA> i think it is, will check
14:17:39 <MarvinPA> yup, it's in options_guide and the default init.txt
14:17:40 <bhaak> dpeg: i wasn't talking about v-n vs n-v but about generally overdesigned ui elements :)
14:18:26 <dpeg> !tell elliptic They've stolen your streak! :( Anyway, the rules are a blast. The species/background stock exchange worked very well ... could see how it prompted Kenku, for example. What about extending it to gods?
14:18:27 <Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let elliptic know.
14:18:33 <bhaak> for example, this prevents you from easily porting it to tablets :-)
14:19:45 <dpeg> bhaak: yes, roguelike developers have been very quick with putting all kinds of obscure commands on obscure key combinations. Crawl
14:19:49 <dpeg> being no exception
14:20:08 <bhaak> it's influenced by nethack, what do you expect? :)
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14:20:47 <dpeg> well, we have learned more from Nethack's mistakes than Nethack itself
14:21:03 <bhaak> roguelikes and flight simulators are the only games that use the keyboard to its fullest nowadays
14:21:14 <dpeg> (it seems to be equally influenced by Angband, not sure what/how their interface is)
14:21:29 <dpeg> bhaak: no RTS games?
14:21:51 <bhaak> AFAIK the general interface is about the same. the same as for all old roguelikes
14:22:07 <dpeg> I should really play Rogue some day.
14:22:08 <bhaak> pah, for RTS you only need 3 keys and a good mouse :)
14:22:27 <dpeg> bhaak: I thought the good players use all keys in order to increase performance.
14:23:05 <dpeg> MarvinPA: regarding R/T, the modus would be to switch the default options, but to keep the commands for at least two versions, right?
14:23:15 <bhaak> dpeg: there doesn't exist RTS games that complex anymore ;-)
14:23:30 <MarvinPA> that seems like a reasonable compromise, yeah
14:25:42 <dpeg> MarvinPA: it can happen that we don't manage, no promises
14:28:06 <ghallberg> OH GOD BAT LAIR!
14:28:11 <ghallberg> BEST VAULT EVER!
14:28:14 <ghallberg> <3<3
14:28:17 <ghallberg> <3
14:28:19 <ghallberg> ♥
14:28:25 <ghallberg> Thank you :)
14:28:39 <bhaak> so happy to see a megabat again?
14:29:41 <ghallberg> Yep
14:33:03 <bhaak> crawl people are strange :-)
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15:12:00 <Ashenzari> Passage of Golburia still doesn't have any portal tiles. (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4432) by Claws
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15:23:38 <dpeg> galehar: hi! MarvinPA suggested (and I support it) that we deprecate the R and T commands. This would mean that we make the option to use W/P for removal the default and keep R/T, just don't announce it for two versions.
15:23:42 <dpeg> What do you think?
15:23:53 <dpeg> I can explain why we think this is a good move :)
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15:29:16 <dpeg> the question goes to everyone, but seems nobody is around
15:31:36 <ais523> people will use R/T out of habit anyway
15:32:51 <dpeg> they can, but the idea is that new players will not pick up the habit
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15:43:24 <rawrmage> why remove it?
15:43:42 <rawrmage> want the 2 keys for some other use?
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15:48:05 <dpeg> rawrmage: fewer keys to learn for new players
15:48:38 <dpeg> One of the developers ran tests with students (no prior roguelike experience) and the learning curve is really steep
15:48:52 <dpeg> every step to make it easier for new players helps a lot
15:50:33 <bhaak> is dcss completely mouse-driven if you want to?
15:50:34 <dpeg> and while we cannot cut down the number commands to half, getting rid of R/T is possible, and these are commands a player has to learn quite early
15:50:42 <dpeg> bhaak: not yet, I am afraid
15:50:45 <dpeg> but the time will come
15:50:57 <|amethyst> why separate commands for W and P ?
15:51:07 <monqy> personally I think learnability would be benefited more yes what |amethyst said
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15:51:29 <dpeg> |amethyst: hehe, we had this before, ghallberg asked
15:52:15 <dpeg> |amethyst: can you look up two hours ago?
15:53:27 <dpeg> got to go, please read up above or ask me later
15:53:35 <dpeg> there's a good reason to keep W and P distinguished, too
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15:54:29 <|amethyst> dp I see
15:55:33 <monqy> I don't
15:55:41 <monqy> there are already commands to see all armour and see all jewellery
15:55:54 <monqy> or is that only worn stuff
15:56:02 <|amethyst> monqy:  only worn
15:56:02 <monqy> whatever I don't think it would be all that bad to conflate them
15:56:26 <monqy> I wouldn't even mind of the distinction was entirely removed; I'd like that.
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15:58:08 <ghallberg> monqy: I'm with you actually
15:58:19 <ghallberg> But dpeg seems pretty set on it...
15:58:30 <ghallberg> So I didn't feel like arguing.
16:00:37 <|amethyst> really, if new users are the target, some testing of the alternatives on new users would be appropriate
16:01:29 <monqy> I'd also like a singular key for read/quaff/eat/evoke, but the inventory display would probably be too cluttered then
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16:06:19 <galehar> dpeg: +1 for defaulting equip_unequip to true
16:07:12 <bhaak> he's gone :)
16:07:25 <galehar> oh right
16:07:33 <galehar> !tell dpeg +1 for defaulting equip_unequip to true
16:07:33 <Henzell> galehar: OK, I'll let dpeg know.
16:07:45 <galehar> bhaak: WASD is 4 keys, not 3 :P
16:08:57 <bhaak> never retreat!
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16:26:24 <Gretell> profreshinal (L1 HuEE) ASSERT((x < mx) && (y < my) && (x >= 0) && (y >= 0)) in 'tileweb-text.cc' at line 80 failed. (D:1 (ZotDef))
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21:46:02 <Eronarn> MarvinPA: will you really put alchemy in if i patch it? :P
21:46:46 <due> Eronarn: <3
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21:53:17 <Eronarn> due: i have the patch already half written!
21:53:49 <due> :DD
21:54:05 <Eronarn> actually, it could go in now
21:54:19 <Eronarn> the thing holding it up is the alchemist role + spells
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23:46:22 <Gretell> paplaukes (L27 DsFE) ASSERT(feat_is_solid(feat)) in 'beam.cc' at line 1114 failed. (Geh:7)
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