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00:46:54 <due> hm
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00:48:07 <due> hi Keskitalo!
00:48:16 <due> Hm, I think it's a bit early for Naapkin to be up
00:48:25 <due> Or kilobyte
00:50:13 <due> !tell kilobyte This (http://sprunge.us/NIHb) resolves the issue we discussed with Jory. Using the validate chunk causes it to try re-placing the vault a dozen times which causes massive slow-down. Pre-place /can/ cause the builder to fail on a PLACE: map, though. Anyway, my only concern is save compat.
00:50:13 <Henzell> due: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
00:51:03 <due> !tell kilobyte It would be nice if we could have a chunk that's executed at map-choose time instead, but I'm not sure how much of a slow-down that would introduce to the random_map_for_X functions.
00:51:03 <Henzell> due: OK, I'll let kilobyte know.
00:59:23 <evilmike> I'm trying out the pandemonium floor tiles denzi uploaded, but I'm having trouble getting coloured variations working. I coloured the tiles red and added those normally (works fine) but can't get them coloured blue, green, etc using the same way it colours other floor tiles in dc-floor.txt
00:59:45 <due> Ah
00:59:57 <due> You need to make sure it's the /exact/ same hue of red.
01:00:10 <due> And I think it's more of a brown-y colour.
01:00:25 <due> I usually open both tiles in GIMP and then use the "colourise (from another image)" option.
01:00:53 <evilmike> Oh, thanks. I'll go ahead and dowload GIMP then.
01:01:04 <due> I think...
01:01:15 <due> Photoshop may have an equivalent
01:01:25 <due> But I'm alack, not used to it.
01:02:51 <due> Let me find the setting :)
01:03:23 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1739-g75476a0 (32)
01:03:25 <evilmike> I don't have photoshop, the image editor I'm using is just a simple one for windows
01:03:25 <due> Ahah
01:03:42 <due> Colour menu -> Map -> Sample Colourise
01:04:59 <due> (Or alternately just use colourise to set the huge of red to whatever the brown hue is; it did take a bit of tweaking, from what I recall0
01:06:02 <evilmike> well, I'm guessing if I colourize the new demonic floor based on floor_rough_red, it should work, since rough_red has a ton of colour variations
01:06:13 * due nod.
01:06:15 <due> It should, yeah.
01:18:52 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1739-g75476a0
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01:35:33 <evilmike> great, it works.
01:36:23 <due> yay :D
01:36:46 <Keskitalo> Good morning! My connection keeps flaking out. :/
01:39:18 <due> :(
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01:49:45 <Ashenzari> Donald's descriptive text inaccurate for swimming races (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4863) by G-Flex
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01:54:48 <Ashenzari> Dump files don't include fractional skill points (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4864) by G-Flex
01:04:54 <Ashenzari> Swiftness reduces stealth even in situations where it isn't applied (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=4865) by G-Flex
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01:56:41 <Gretell> surrr (L15 HOSk) ERROR: range check error (16842752 / 211) (Abyss)
02:11:41 <st_> ely piety is too hard to get very early game now
02:12:00 <st_> at D:4 I should have gained at least ***
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02:35:15 <st_> food is just to tight early game to expect to you pacify everything, I've pacified everything it makes sense to and still don't have *** by D:6
02:35:21 <st_> and I'm also down to a single ration
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02:44:24 <evilmike> I heard something similar from someone who recently played a healer. Major food problems from trying to get a decent level of piety
02:45:31 <st_> and then once you get to lair it's a piety explosion
02:46:10 <st_> I think starting a priest is better than healer right now, for Ely chars
02:49:41 <due> huuuuuungry
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03:30:15 <CIA-8> 03evilmike * r5f25f20f620b 10/crawl-ref/source/ (10 files in 3 dirs): Denzi's new Pandemonium walls.
03:30:25 <CIA-8> 03evilmike * r240a38d68ff1 10/crawl-ref/source/ (11 files in 3 dirs): Denzi's new pandemonium floor tiles.
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03:42:04 <CIA-8> 03evilmike * r7de1999dac9d 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/UNUSED/features/ (12 files): Add Denzi's alt tartarus floor to rltiles/UNUSED
03:48:59 <evilmike> regarding tengus: "The first change that makes sense since the Polearms having reach one. I mean their justification is weak and stupid, but Crawl's Kenku are way more similar to mythological Tengu anyway."
03:49:45 <evilmike> it's a good change. but also bad. I cant make up my mind, please help :((((
03:50:49 <ghallberg> evilmike: I don't understand :S
03:51:12 <evilmike> me neither. It was some weird comment about the recent change.
03:51:27 <evilmike> (the second line was me making fun of it)
03:55:04 <kilobyte> due: isn't that doing the very same thing "veto" already does?
03:55:04 <Henzell> kilobyte: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
03:55:41 <kilobyte> and validate AFAIK
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04:26:06 <kilobyte> holy crap, {found in the sewers} on literally everything is annoying
04:27:17 <kilobyte> darts, scrolls, corpses, ...
04:27:26 <kilobyte> rotting chunk of grey rat flesh {found in the sewers}
04:27:30 <evilmike> even weapons that enemies are wielding
04:30:06 <CIA-8> 03evilmike * r6c9230eb8101 10/crawl-ref/source/rltiles/dc-dngn/wall/dngn_metal_wall_cracked.png: Colour the cracked metal wall tile orange.
04:36:44 <kilobyte> due: since it already would have to be recoded from scratch, ok to remove it from master?
04:37:21 <kilobyte> clearing inscriptions on 2/3 of potions and scrolls is a lot of unnecessary work
04:38:19 <kilobyte> if you have 99 needles, picking one up in the Sewer will mark the whole stack
04:38:27 <st_> I'm finding nausea to be extremely annoying
04:38:49 <st_> far more so than the foodreform
04:43:52 <evilmike> have you tried setting prefer_safe_chunks = true? I find that makes nausea a bit easier to deal with, although that's not going to help in branches where all the chunks are contaminated
04:44:09 <kilobyte> st_: do you mean "because it does about nothing"?
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05:00:03 <Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1742-g7de1999
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05:01:31 <kilobyte> with unique's weapons starting identified, those inscriptions are useless as well (except for Psyche and Sonja who don't pre-identify as they can get random brands)
05:02:09 <alefury> unique's weapons start identified?
05:03:58 <kilobyte> that and inscribed
05:04:09 <kilobyte> a quarterstaff of chaos {Crazy Yiuf}
05:09:15 <alefury> oh. that shouldnt be all uniques though, right?
05:09:15 <alefury> according to the commit message
05:09:49 <alefury> lots just get a random good weapon
05:10:50 <kilobyte> it is also done on drop rather than generation
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05:17:43 <due> Hi!
05:18:11 <due> kilobyte: No
05:18:23 <due> kilobyte: When the validate chunk fails it tries to spin the map and regenerate it.
05:19:39 <due> kilobyte: I couldn't actually get veto to do anything nor find any documentation for it
05:19:39 <due> kilobyte: If  it does, though, that woul dbe good
05:19:39 <due> I'll have another read through mapdef.cc and maps.cc to see if I can work out what veto does
05:20:13 <kilobyte> there are several chunks that are unused, too
05:20:20 <kilobyte> including, especially, prelude
05:20:30 <due> prelude can definitely go, nothing seems to use it
05:20:38 <due> but if veto is unused/not functional we can maybe subsume it
05:20:42 <kilobyte> prelude is not stripped in most cases
05:21:03 <due> grep says nothing uses veto{{
05:21:21 <kilobyte> there's a number of vaults that try to set tags or weights from lua
05:21:23 <kilobyte> which doesn't work
05:21:26 <due> yes
05:21:38 <due> the documentation really needs to be updated to explain why it won't work
05:21:45 <due> it took me a while to understand personally
05:22:14 <due> okay, back in about ten
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05:29:09 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever.
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05:47:58 <syraine> What the hell? Tengu...?
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05:48:45 <alefury> whats wrong with tengu?
05:49:03 <alefury> te makes a lot more words than ke
05:49:16 <syraine> If it is a tengu, why is its Invocations aptitude -2?
05:49:56 <alefury> i dont know much about tengu, but due can probably say something about that
05:50:54 <syraine> Due, was this your idea, then...? =|
05:51:04 <syraine> Not said brutally.
05:52:20 <alefury> i missed the discussion, but ##crawl-dev is logged, so...
05:52:34 <alefury> feel free to find out :P
05:52:53 <Keskitalo> I've been promoting kenku->tengu at least.
05:53:08 <due> What?
05:53:11 <syraine> Keskitalo, garuda would be better.
05:53:31 <syraine> Due, tengu are typically priests.
05:53:37 <due> Okay.
05:53:40 <due> Di dyou see the commit message?
05:53:44 <syraine> Nope!
05:53:47 <due> "This is the first step to differnetiating our tengu from kenku."
05:53:52 <syraine> Okay.
05:54:05 <due> So, yeah,reserve judgement until they'r efinished?
05:54:06 <syraine> Why not make them garuda? You wouldn't even need to add one more step.
05:54:08 <syraine> =P
05:54:10 <st_> maybe our tengu are different from typical tengu
05:54:15 <syraine> Garuda are also properly bird-people.
05:54:18 <due> Because garuda is too much like Zelda.
05:54:22 <syraine> Then why are you using mythos... =F
05:54:27 <syraine> Garuda is too much like Zelda?
05:54:36 <kilobyte> there are many kinds of tengu
05:54:55 <Keskitalo> Oh, it's in, nice!
05:55:00 <due> Er, not Zelda.
05:55:03 <due> Something, I froget what though.
05:55:06 <syraine> Kilobyte, actually there are two types of tengu.
05:55:08 <syraine> And many forms.
05:55:08 <due> Keskitalo: Yes, I pushed it earlier.
05:55:16 <due> Ther eare daitengu, kotengu and tengu.
05:55:23 <due> And a variety of depictions.
05:55:25 <syraine> Those three mean
05:55:27 <syraine> Big tengu
05:55:28 <syraine> Little tengu
05:55:30 <syraine> and tengu
05:55:30 <due> Yes, I know.
05:55:42 <syraine> They're not 'different types', they're size descriptors
05:56:02 <due> I was of the opinion that daitengu were more humanoid, whereas kotengu were more bird-like.
05:56:05 <syraine> The tengu are divided into those that have fallen onto the road of the tengu and are prideful, yet are still good, and those that are not.
05:56:05 <due> I could be wrong.
05:56:23 <syraine> The tengu themselves manifest as humanoids, and their true form is usually a kite.
05:56:45 <due> Anyway, it's not really a point I have any energy to discuss tonight ;)
05:57:02 <syraine> mmkay
05:57:13 <due> It's late and I am exhausted :D
05:59:41 <Keskitalo> Hey, the bad part about "kenku" wast
06:00:07 <evilmike> crawl doesn't need to be exactly like the tengu of folklore anyway
06:00:24 <evilmike> this game gets to pick which parts sound cool and uses those
06:00:29 <Keskitalo> that the name is purely from D&D. We can adapt and use the mythos in any way that fits the game best.
06:00:37 <kilobyte> it's a good improvement... at least some tengu could magically fly without wings
06:00:45 <kilobyte> whike kenku didn't
06:00:53 <due> Exactly
06:03:04 <Keskitalo> For instance, I have an idea that Tengu are of some sort of demonic origin, but are not actually demonic/automatically Evil in themselves. This is purposefully vague and only meant to justify them appearing in a new aerial Hell/Other Realms level type.
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06:03:27 <due> Keskitalo: well, they're defind in mythology as prideful priests and nuns who cannot go to hell but cannot go to heaven
06:03:28 <Keskitalo> (Other Realms standing for diversified Pan, with Pan levels being a level type in OR).
06:03:35 <due> Keskitalo: so a purgatory/other realms idea works really well
06:03:49 <due> Keskitalo: also did you see my idea of a parallel faery realm where time runs different? and the threat scales with each D-level?
06:03:51 <Keskitalo> All right, that sounds better than "demonic origin" actually. :)
06:04:12 <evilmike> Keskitalo: any more ideas on how the other realms will work? Myself, I still like the idea of having two opposite realms that are at war with each other
06:04:23 <evilmike> it would be a good excuse to use holies
06:05:09 <evilmike> (not to say that it has to be limited to two)
06:05:25 <Keskitalo> I'd make it work so that you enter a gate (from D or from an OR level), and enter a random level type. Sometimes, you might see a gate that explicitly states which type it'll lead into.
06:05:54 <Keskitalo> This would hopefully mean that you'd dive through the level types you couldn't handle, and stay and fight more on the types that you could handle.
06:06:06 <Keskitalo> I'm not sure how runes should appear yet though.
06:06:11 <evilmike> what if instead, there were two types of gates: one that leads to a different realm, and one that leads to a different level of the current realm
06:06:15 <evilmike> the latter could be more common
06:06:40 <Keskitalo> I don't think we should really add more runes, but do a Lair branch style rotation of some sort.
06:07:04 <evilmike> yeah keep it at 15
06:07:14 <evilmike> though, i think it would be a good excuse to get rid of the abyssal rune
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06:07:51 <Keskitalo> evilmike: It'd be nice to force players into realms that are challenging for their build.
06:08:00 <kilobyte> due: besides, your Abyssal stuff lacks any kind of description what they're supposed to do... just some fluff but none crunch
06:08:05 <alefury> Keskitalo: it sounds like it would work really well for a random pan replacement
06:08:11 <evilmike> this is true. however, holies currently are absolute murder for undeads/demonspawn
06:08:19 <alefury> other ideas for alternatives to pan were discussed
06:08:23 <evilmike> they don't have many ways to counter them, other than to spam summons
06:08:37 <kilobyte> due: I'd want an Abyss portal vault to test multi-level portal vaults
06:08:41 <alefury> there was a heart of zot idea (weird lair with acid and mutations) on the tavern
06:08:52 <Keskitalo> mmm, multilevel portal vaults
06:09:58 <alefury> well, that should work with the code changes kilobyte is doing, right?
06:10:27 <alefury> (work much better than zigs anyway)
06:10:37 <Keskitalo> The thing with runes that I'm not sure about, is that.. should you be able to "pick" which runes appear (by trying to stay on level types that you can handle as much as possible, to try to generate rune levels) or would it be determined..
06:10:48 <Keskitalo> pre-determined
06:10:57 <evilmike> pre-determined is harder
06:11:01 <alefury> imo pre-determined
06:11:03 <Keskitalo> Which has implications to which builds can (or are easier to) all-rune
06:11:23 <evilmike> it wouldn't be bad to make pan a bit harder, too
06:11:30 <kilobyte> alefury: yeah, they're normal branches that you just can't travel from or to.  And that may go away at specific points.
06:11:58 <alefury> cool. lehudib's crystal spire wizlab plz! :)
06:12:06 <due> yES.
06:12:08 <due> that is happening
06:12:24 <due> kilobyte: can we give portal vaults single stairs?
06:12:26 <alefury> its in the .des file with some description, just has no content
06:12:39 <due> alefury: ithas been waiting for precisely this time
06:12:57 <due> lurking in the shadows, etc
06:13:43 <kilobyte> due: you mean, the requirement that there are exactly three stairs?
06:14:02 <due> kilobyte: yeah
06:15:25 <kilobyte> not sure what happens for encompass vaults, lemme check
06:15:56 <due> i think encompass vaults can not place three stairs
06:16:07 <due> from my experience s converting the vaults builder to lua
06:16:14 <evilmike> by the way, stairs in encompass vaults can be turned into portal mimics
06:16:21 <evilmike> this is really bad, because it will put another stair randomly on the map
06:16:32 <evilmike> err stair mimics*
06:16:38 <evilmike> portal mimics in hell, though
06:17:06 <Keskitalo> There's KMASK no_mimic or something like that; should we just review all the vaults?
06:17:24 <evilmike> that would be one way to do it
06:17:46 <evilmike> branch endings would be the highest priority (tomb and hells, especially, since they are -ctele)
06:17:55 <Keskitalo> Of course, encompass maps are usually meant to have fixed stairs, so random placement might be simply bad for all of them.
06:18:05 <evilmike> that's what I think.
06:18:06 <due> Hm
06:18:12 <due> the builder should know when we're doing an eomcpass map
06:18:26 <due> and isn't that where it converts stairs to mimics?
06:18:27 <kilobyte> due: the map gets vetoed later
06:18:53 <kilobyte> but of course, this is nothing that can't get some sense beaten into it
06:19:50 <Zaba_> _place_feature_mimics already has a lot of cases where it doesn't place mimics
06:20:16 <Zaba_> could just add some more special cases :D
06:21:01 <due> :D
06:21:10 <due> zaba, do you know how veto{{} works?
06:22:56 <evilmike> due: i was meaning to ask, how do i use that stuff you added that gives xp stats?
06:23:24 <due> evilmike: ./crawl -script genmap <map name> <output file>
06:23:33 <evilmike> thanks
06:23:34 <due> evilmike: you might need to tweak the code if it uses place-depdent
06:23:41 <due> evilmike: as it defaults to d:1 and there's no way to change it, as it's hard-coded
06:24:06 <due> but it is infinitely useful, I have found
06:24:06 <evilmike> alright
06:24:08 <kilobyte> goto_place?
06:24:14 <due> kilobyte: yeah
06:24:21 <due> it's goto_place("D:1")
06:24:35 <due> I'll make it choose command line argument 3 at some point
06:25:17 <due> evilmike: that only matters if you use 8 or 9s
06:25:22 <due> anyway, i must sleep now
06:25:28 <due> brain has started shutting down. ciao!
06:26:13 <Keskitalo> chewers!
06:29:13 <Zaba_> due, veto{{}} works?
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06:36:13 <Zaba_> kilobyte, I wonder whether the veto chunk has ever been used for anything, and if yes then what for
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06:42:08 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * rba21d883457d 10/crawl-ref/source/ (beam.cc beam.h item_use.cc): Don't pass the victim to range_func, it's useless.
06:42:08 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * re37539615995 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files): Remove the ranged brand of reaping (unused for over a year).
06:42:08 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * r480424f53915 10/crawl-ref/source/beam.cc: Get rid of a copy-the-monster hack.
06:42:09 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * r28d914718488 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Delay elec arrow discharge until after the attack, to avoid a possible crash.
06:42:09 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * r4f49d3f6c844 10/crawl-ref/source/item_use.cc: Disambiguate hit_funcs and damage_funcs.
06:42:09 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * rc571a7e44ac1 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Remove an invalid comment.
06:42:21 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * ra7615e4ab3b5 10/crawl-ref/source/ (mon-gear.cc mon-stuff.cc): Don't annotate items dropped by uniques except in three cases where it matters.
06:42:21 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * r6c1f7ed05e91 10/crawl-ref/source/describe.cc: Show item's origins in item description.
06:42:22 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * r6d02fa10fdbc 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/portals/ (bailey.des sewer.des): Pre-identify a few items that are always of the same types.
06:42:22 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * r5055a2b94aec 10/crawl-ref/source/items.cc: Revert inscriptions on things found in portal vaults as well.
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06:48:27 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1753-g6d02fa1 (32)
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06:58:28 <Keskitalo> sounds like file200 has been busy with forge dwarves
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07:29:02 <kilobyte> Zin protects you from harm! HP: 0/0 (34)
07:29:53 <BlastHardcheese> good times
07:32:07 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * r2601227429b6 10/crawl-ref/source/ouch.cc: Don't let Zin/Ely/TSO/Beogh/Yred lifesave people at 0 maxhp.
07:32:36 <syraine> mm
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08:09:38 <jeanjacques> my in progress game save vanished from cdo trunk
08:10:36 <jeanjacques> !lm . x=src, cv
08:10:36 <Sequell> 7636. [2011-11-06] [src=cdo;cv=0.10-a] jeanjacques the Imperceptible (L20 SpHe) reached level 27 of the Dungeon on turn 34908. (D:27)
08:13:37 <syraine> !lg jeanjacques ktyp=quit sphe
08:13:37 <Sequell> 13. jeanjacques the Ducker (L2 HaMo), quit the game on D:2 on 2011-11-05, with 36 points after 308 turns and 0:01:47.
08:13:37 <kilobyte> I ran a transfer and clean-up of old versions today, it may be related
08:13:56 <jeanjacques> it was just started yesterday evening though without any transfers
08:13:59 <kilobyte> can't even read the scripts though
08:14:22 <jle> So did mine.
08:15:05 <jle> Ugh, was about to get the human highscore. Any way of recovery?
08:16:07 <CIA-8> 03MarvinPA * r0f57a8cd7c0a 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/monsters.txt: Update Donald's description for player Octopodes
08:16:33 <kilobyte> no idea, I guess Napkin could say something
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08:29:24 <jle> Napkin: Well, I'd appreciate it if you could look into this. Doesn't seem to affect all saves, but at least two.
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08:37:24 <dpeg> Hi!
08:39:51 <kilobyte> meow?
08:40:40 <kilobyte> dpeg: I moved unique and origin inscriptions to the description, people complained about them -- and damn rightly, IMO
08:41:07 <kilobyte> only Psyche's dagger, Sonja's short sword and Donald's shield get direct inscriptions now
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08:44:55 <dpeg> kilobyte: apart from inscribing pointless items (consumables, ammunition), which was not intended, the question is this: do we think it is good flavour to inscribe the origin of weapons and armour. I like it, which is why I said yes.
08:45:34 <kilobyte> "You found it on level 1 of the Dungeon."
08:46:04 <kilobyte> "You took it off Psyche on level 1 of the Dungeon."
08:46:06 <dpeg> uniques and portal vaults are a bit more special :)
08:46:11 <dpeg> yes, I know
08:46:23 <dpeg> kilobyte: you moved into the item description?
08:46:39 <kilobyte> yeah
08:47:22 <dpeg> good
08:47:45 <dpeg> kilobyte: are you done with the branch stuff? There was this massive commit yesterday... Time for the HS?
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08:48:11 <kilobyte> no, still a long way to go
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08:49:49 <dpeg> kilobyte: okay, tell me when it's time to put more emphasis on the HS
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08:55:09 <kilobyte> I guess it's time to remove mountain bats already, right?
08:55:25 <BlastHardcheese> rename to dwarf bats
08:55:26 <kilobyte> that's a rude joke and has too high weight
08:55:33 <kilobyte> BlastHardcheese: ...
08:55:40 <kilobyte> heh, an actual kind
08:56:02 <|amethyst> and give them axes
08:56:36 <dpeg> kilobyte: I like them
08:59:26 <kilobyte> heh, there are thousands of "mountain bat" species, and thousands of "dwarf bat" ones
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08:59:53 <kilobyte> all I've found so far have some other adjective though
09:00:08 <dpeg> leave them in, at least for a while
09:00:14 <kilobyte> and I found no one that's both "mountain" and "dwarf", but that's damn plausible
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09:05:46 <alefury> http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6531/darwinian_difficulty_how_throwing_.php?page=1
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09:05:49 <alefury> somewhat interesting
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09:10:27 <HangedMan> reminds me of how ap says that tutorials are a failure of design
09:11:09 <HangedMan> because they show a lack of confidence in both the game to be understandable when first approaching it and a lack of confidence in the player to be able to get to grips with it
09:12:07 <alefury> ap?
09:12:23 <HangedMan> auntie pixelante
09:12:27 <alefury> ah
09:12:33 <HangedMan> anna antrophy whatever
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09:29:19 <kilobyte> HangedMan: auntie pixelante?  Isn't that the same person who made Lesbian Spider Queens of Mars recently?
09:29:24 <kilobyte> (parody not porn)
09:30:57 <kilobyte> a fun game, but I had one gripe: it is damn unobvious what to do with the final enemy.  I tried hitting her the usual way, with no effect.  I thus assumed she's just an obstacle to be avoided while killing regular monsters (like on all other levels).
09:31:20 <kilobyte> that seemed to go on without end, though
09:32:20 <kilobyte> only after watching a youtube video it turned out that you can put down the final enemy in one hit, but somehow only from the back not from the side.  With no feedback at all.
09:36:27 <HangedMan> *shrug*
09:37:37 <HangedMan> I respume there's something about experimentation to be said but I never got around to playing that one very much
09:37:57 <HangedMan> respume, good lord I suck at typing
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14:33:08 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: DCSS Development | Logs: http://tozt.net/crawl | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever.
14:33:42 <jle> I have no games that old on cdo, certainly.
14:33:43 <Napkin> i'm afraid kilobyte remove trunk versions, without knowing, that the saves inside need to be transfered first
14:34:22 <Napkin> maybe I should add a security check for that
14:35:01 <elliptic> deleting stuff that is multiple major versions old sounds reasonable
14:35:11 <dpeg> yes
14:35:16 <elliptic> jan 2011 would be 0.8-a
14:36:05 <Napkin> well, you know how it is
14:36:44 <Napkin> exactly in the moment you delete them someone shows up missing his char, which he wanted to continue after his year in the timbuktu forests ;)
14:37:48 <Napkin> deleted.
14:37:50 <dpeg> of course!
14:38:05 <elliptic> that person will be lost in the hundreds of angry people who just lost their recent saves, don't worry :P
14:38:31 <Napkin> hehe, elliptic
14:38:37 <jle> I'm surprised by the lack of shouting on ##crawl, but maybe tavern will make up for it.
14:38:59 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.10-a0-1758-g372cecc (32)
14:39:02 <Napkin> is there a thread about it, jle? could you link me please?
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14:39:27 <MarvinPA> it's the risk you take by playing trunk i guess :P
14:39:30 <jle> Napkin: Sorry, I don't really follow tavern except passively through what minmay and elynae say about it in ##crawl.
14:39:41 <MarvinPA> i don't think there's actually a tavern thread
14:40:06 <jle> I can just see it, though. "You ruined MD and now you ruin our saves for daring to criticize you!"
14:40:33 <Napkin> ohohoh, let me be the bad guy this time :>
14:40:33 <Ragdoll> + "while playing a kenku!"
14:40:34 <|amethyst> Just tell them "tengu" is Japanese for "mountain dwarf"
14:40:35 <dpeg> jle: and then Kenku -> Tengu as icing on the nerfed cake
14:40:38 <ghallberg> "timbuktu forest"
14:40:45 <dpeg> |amethyst: awesome!
14:40:48 <ghallberg> New vault, it's just a desert with dead stumps.
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14:42:10 <jle> dpeg: I guess that's fodder for the "you think all change is good" crowd, though it's not much of a nerf as such.
14:42:44 <MarvinPA> it's not anything of a nerf in any way :P
14:43:13 <Napkin> I'm actually glad my chars are gone - they were way too nice to Quit, but I wasn't motivated to continue them!
14:43:28 <alefury> maybe make a thread? or a blog post?
14:43:47 <alefury> "oops, we killed your saves, sorry!"
14:43:50 <kilobyte> Napkin: ... fuck
14:43:56 <kilobyte> oy vey...
14:44:00 <Napkin> happens, kilobyte :)
14:44:26 <Napkin> use savegame-transfer.sh or savegame-all-transfer.sh first next time
14:44:31 <kilobyte> since the script does check and warn for on-going games, I assumed that it handles everything else as well
14:44:47 <Napkin> nah, they don't
14:45:02 <Napkin> you know how it is.. scripts grown over time
14:45:24 <kilobyte> yeah, one data loss after another
14:45:38 <Napkin> this is proper clean-up procedure: savegame-all-transfer.sh && clean-trunks.pl
14:46:20 <kilobyte> too bad, most of these saves were fresh
14:46:29 <kilobyte> rather than games forgotten for a year
14:46:41 <Napkin> !beer kilobyte
14:49:24 <kilobyte> nothing like a friend who wasted two months worth of an entire crystallographical research lab's work
14:49:40 <kilobyte> formatted the old set of disk servers rather the new one
14:50:00 <Napkin> omg..
14:50:08 <Napkin> !beer kilobyte's friend
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14:52:23 <kilobyte> by the way, disk space is damn cheap now... daily btrfs snapshots (or old-style copy sets) are a must for butter-fingered fuck-ups like me
14:52:54 <Napkin> lol
14:53:10 <Napkin> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/oops-untimely-death-of-many-souls-cdo
14:54:42 <Napkin> that subject is bad english.. isn't it?
14:55:13 <Ragdoll> it gets the point across
14:55:21 <MarvinPA> seems fine, yeah
14:56:16 <Ragdoll> shame those main-page titles dont generate there. coul be a nice combo with titles such as "let it end in hellfire"
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14:56:25 <Napkin> good, thanks
14:56:26 <Napkin> hehehe
14:57:06 <Napkin> no more cleaning up tonight, kilobyte - i'll add the security check tomorrow ;)
14:58:39 <Napkin> dpeg, galehar created another post about mods in the mod-only forum, which I replied to. just a matter of contacting the volunteers and letting them know now
14:59:07 <alefury> please tell me youre not making xuaxua a mod
14:59:30 <alefury> all the other volunteers seem like reasonable people to me
15:00:19 <Napkin> galehar suggested Grimm and njvack
15:02:23 <dpeg> Napkin: not sure I can access the mod-only forum
15:02:32 <Napkin> you probably can't
15:02:48 <dpeg> Napkin: those sound good. I have doubts about Xua^2 myself
15:02:53 <Napkin> i was just telling you to let you know it's being worked on :)
15:05:18 <dpeg> cool!
15:06:18 <Napkin> maybe changing "Forum Rules! Please Read!" to "Really short Forum Rules! Please Read!" might help, too
15:08:26 <Napkin> hmm, the link in here (https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=566) is deprecated - what's the current one?
15:09:00 <Napkin> got it - http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commits/master
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15:39:44 <dpeg> Tavern thread: Why rename Kenku to Tengu? "...I am quite pissed about this. ..."
15:40:53 <Ragdoll> i am curious about the reason
15:41:25 <kilobyte> Ragdoll: our kenku had little in common with D&D ones
15:41:58 <Ragdoll> ah. and tengu is a more creative thing?
15:42:10 <kilobyte> their: a not-frail flightless humanoid with beak
15:42:56 <kilobyte> no but it at least matches the mythology it is taken from (one of the variants, that is -- you need to pick one)
15:42:56 <Eronarn> ours are flightless until a certain XL, and have beaks
15:43:06 <BlastHardcheese> the rename is intended to indicate their status as a joke race
15:43:24 <kilobyte> what's so joke about tengu?
15:43:34 <Ragdoll> which variant to be exact? :p
15:43:49 <kilobyte> Ragdoll: there are many
15:43:54 <BlastHardcheese> kilobyte: they die if something looks at them funny
15:44:09 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * r5510d4edb395 10/crawl-ref/source/skills2.cc: Show partial skills in character dumps.
15:44:15 <kilobyte> more hp than spriggans
15:44:20 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * rbff1c41e49e6 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-gear.cc: Enchant Psyche's dagger.
15:44:25 <kilobyte> (and felids, but felids have lives for that)
15:44:36 <ais523> speed is a defensive attribute, in a way
15:44:40 <ais523> it means you get attacked less
15:44:44 <BlastHardcheese> but none of the spriggan ev/speed bonus
15:44:57 <Ragdoll> reading into it now, always interesting
15:45:24 <kilobyte> most of the variants could actually magically fly without wings
15:45:54 <elliptic> kilobyte: the unique item inscriptions weren't just for flavor, you know... and I expect people to be confused when they see them for just a couple of items but not others
15:46:20 <elliptic> the fact that they didn't handle dropping/picking up items well was bad though
15:46:24 <kilobyte> (being mostly spirits -- but the Japanese spirits were not ethereal ghosts)
15:46:46 <elliptic> er, weren't just for gameplay, I mean
15:47:07 <Ragdoll> !apt kenku
15:47:08 <Henzell> Could not understand "kenku"
15:47:14 <Ragdoll> !apt te
15:47:14 <Henzell> Te: Air: , Armour: , Axes: , Bows: , Charms: , Conj: , Xbows: , Dodge: , Earth: , Evo: , Exp: !, Fighting: , Fire: , Hexes: , Ice: , Inv: , Long: , Maces: , Nec: , Poison: , Polearms: , Shields: , Short: , Slings: , Splcast: , Stab: , Staves: , Stealth: , Summ: , Throw: , Tloc: , Tmut: , Traps: , Unarmed:
15:47:35 <elliptic> !apt ke
15:47:36 <Henzell> Could not understand "ke"
15:48:08 <kilobyte> elliptic: do you mean just the "trophy" factor, or something more?
15:48:15 <kilobyte> (I might have missed a reason)
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15:48:49 <kilobyte> for Sequell: let's have crace for Ke match Te
15:48:50 <elliptic> hm, whoever updated that put Ke in the "no longer exists" category I guess... unfortunate since !apt points at stable
15:49:04 <elliptic> that might be good too, yeah
15:49:52 <elliptic> kilobyte: I mainly meant the trophy factor... unlike the portal vault inscriptions, inscribing a few weapons/armours isn't particularly spammy and was sort of fun
15:50:14 <Wensley> I'd like to suggest inscribing any gear found on the bodies of uniques
15:50:19 <elliptic> cloak of preservation {Crazy Yiuf}
15:50:26 <Wensley> good, that is what you're talking about :)
15:50:55 <Ragdoll> FR: orc corpse { found in the bailey} > Here: An orc zombie{found in the bailey}
15:51:28 <elliptic> potions and scrolls definitely shouldn't be inscribed, though, because of stacking issues... but I think weapons and armour being inscribed is reasonable enough
15:52:28 <dpeg> Wensley: hi! Read messages?
15:52:38 <Wensley> !messages
15:52:39 <Henzell> (1/2) dpeg said (1d 4h 23m 23s ago): Now is a good time to add you Hex ideas to the wiki!
15:53:02 <Wensley> hm, I had hex ideas? :P
15:53:07 <dpeg> elliptic: yes, that was only the goal from the beginning. Sadly, I failed to state that, this is really my mistake.
15:53:28 <dpeg> Wensley: people said you had. Probably those who have a good aptitude at Passing The Buck.
15:54:06 <Wensley> the only hex idea that I've had recently was to change the Slow spell into Eringya's Enrapturing Vines
15:55:21 <dpeg> Wensley: anyway, if you're interested in the Hex affairs, you can add comments to the wiki page
15:55:58 <Wensley> I will shove it on the pile! I've actually been moving out of an apartment for the past three weeks, and just got done about an hour ago. I should be more productive shortly :)
15:56:03 <dpeg> This goes to anyone here! I'd like to sort the page sometime soon so that we can make a plan with about five potential new Hex spells. Good to hear objections to certain proposals right away.
15:56:12 <dpeg> !coffee Wensley
15:56:12 * Henzell hands Wensley a pot of black coffee, brewed by the Serpent of Hell.
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16:24:35 <dpeg> dtsund: hi! What is your experience with sidestep in Light�?
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16:34:14 <galehar> hey
16:34:14 <Henzell> galehar: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
16:34:18 <galehar> !messages
16:34:19 <Henzell> (1/2) Cryp71c said (2w 1d 19h 56m 16s ago): thanks, I can continue to assign tiles stuff to you?
16:34:25 <galehar> !messages
16:34:25 <Henzell> (1/1) kilobyte said (1w 5d 8h 50m 27s ago): I'm afraid I'm about to break save compat; skill_menu_state has a remark about sorting it at the next major tag bump.  How should it be sorted?
16:34:37 <dpeg> Bonsoir galehar!
16:34:42 <galehar> hi dpeg
16:35:07 <galehar> I forgot to answer your email regarding constriction
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16:35:13 <galehar> did you ask around?
16:35:56 <galehar> there's plenty of new devs! Anyone wants to code it?
16:36:14 <dpeg> I mention constriction all the time...
16:36:33 <dpeg> people get excited about MD or whatnot. I tell them: constriction for 0.10! But to no avail :(
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16:37:34 <|amethyst> more of that hipster octopus shit
16:37:51 <|amethyst> </tavern>
16:38:41 <|amethyst> I'm more excited about constriction than MD anyway
16:40:29 <dpeg> We need coders!
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16:40:48 <dpeg> The proposal is pretty details, includings numbers for damage and probabilities etc.
16:43:10 <galehar> yeah, it seems pretty simple. Any decent coder should be able to code it in 3 runes timeframe ;)
16:43:32 <dpeg> hehe
16:43:37 <dpeg> galehar: Implementable?
16:44:44 <galehar> it isn't yet?
16:45:44 <galehar> I was joking, it's a bit big for an implementable. But new hive did get implemented this way, so anything is possible
16:45:55 <galehar> and there's certainly nothing to lose.
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16:46:01 <dpeg> ok
16:46:19 <dpeg> I considered it too big and too important for Mantis, but I'll give it a go.
16:46:21 <galehar> if you've bugged the devs to death with it, let's move on the the players/patchers :)
16:47:16 <dpeg> haha
16:47:48 <dpeg> due has been taken pressure off the MD front by opening another one: the Kenku battleline
16:49:59 <galehar> yes, let's distract the players with a stupid name change
16:50:33 <galehar> we should always follow controversial removals with bikeshed repainting.
16:51:25 <dpeg> also goes for nerfs
16:51:53 <galehar> (I said stupid name change, but I meant unimportant. I totally support Ke->Te)
16:54:27 <galehar> anyway, I chose the perfect time for taking a break. You guys do a great job, I don't think like I'm missed at all.
16:55:32 <alefury> nobody is making permabuffs :(
16:55:32 <galehar> evktalo has come back and with evilmike they have commited plenty of new tiles!
16:55:49 <galehar> kilobyte is doing awesome work as usual
16:56:07 <kilobyte> galehar: and awesome playerwipes on CDO too :p
16:56:33 <galehar> breaking save compat?
16:56:40 <galehar> when is it planned?
16:56:49 <kilobyte> managed to delete most current games on CDO
16:56:54 <galehar> oh
16:57:02 <galehar> that's a good one!
16:58:10 <kilobyte> dpeg: since the branch overhaul still has a full page of TODO, with some big points, I wonder if I should make a break for the Hellspider
16:58:14 <galehar> alefury: yeah. Although, it's still bugging me a lot when I play. I like to play buffed hybrids. So maybe not for 0.10, but I'll do it someday.
16:58:35 <dpeg> galehar: well, you missed a flamestorm :) As some (non-flaming) player put it a little melodramatically: "By tearing this game and its playerbase apart, we're only helping the corporate Diablos etc."
16:59:03 <dpeg> kilobyte: no Spider for 0.10 or branch break for HS?
16:59:30 <kilobyte> dpeg: pausing branch work for a bit to do HS basics
17:00:02 <dpeg> kilobyte: That tickles my cold, dead heart!
17:00:09 <galehar> dpeg: because of MD? They'll get over it.
17:00:18 <alefury> having spider in .10 would certainly be nice
17:01:03 <alefury> theres lots of good changes, but nothing that really stands out so far
17:02:06 <dpeg> alefury: skill system?
17:02:12 <alefury> thats pretty minor
17:02:21 <alefury> just dancing --> restrictions
17:02:33 <dpeg> I don't think so. As far as "new feature" goes perhaps, but it makes gameplay a lot smoother.
17:03:20 <alefury> oh, definitely. im just saying it doesnt really stand out.
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17:04:54 <kilobyte> omgwtfbbq.  Pandemonium lords have almost always speed of only 10 :p
17:05:00 <dpeg> New branch to go with new spider would help a lot, I agree. I still have hope for DG (everyone can help, including me). Not sure what's going on with Vehumet though. Thasero is MIA.
17:05:12 <kilobyte> fixing this bug can cause balance mayhem :p
17:07:52 <dpeg> kilobyte: it's only Pan
17:08:06 <dpeg> everyone knows what MD is, no one makes it to Pan :)
17:08:34 <alefury> pan lords could be a bit harder anyway
17:08:57 <|amethyst> changelog entry: "Made orb run more interesting, again."
17:08:57 <alefury> just the zig levels would get even worse
17:09:57 <alefury> arent the orb run pan lords supposed to have nerfed speed anyway?
17:16:10 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * rfae387ddc38e 10/crawl-ref/source/ (9 files): Fix pan lords having always speed 10, cut ghost_demon code duplication.
17:16:20 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * rbc224623003c 10/crawl-ref/source/ (26 files in 4 dirs): Use Denzi's green bones floor for the ruined half of tar_minmay_river.
17:23:41 <due> hi
17:23:52 <dpeg> Hi due!
17:24:03 <elliptic> kilobyte: so that code in init_random_demon() wasn't actually being applied? it certainly used to be the case that pan lords were fast, when did that get broken?
17:24:31 <dpeg> due: Tavern thread: Why rename Kenku to Tengu? "...I am quite pissed about this. ..." :)
17:26:11 <kilobyte> elliptic: I guess somewhere during the haste nerf
17:26:19 <elliptic> kilobyte: impossible
17:26:29 <elliptic> they were certainly fast in 0.8
17:27:38 <elliptic> (it is very noticeable when they outrun you while you are hasted)
17:27:57 <due> HAHAHA really?
17:29:31 <due> oooh
17:29:35 <due> I like KoboldLord's reply.
17:30:05 <due> Also, Ilke the idea of curare affectnig the breath timer.
17:30:24 <kilobyte> elliptic: lemme bisect
17:35:10 <due> also, wow, I had no idea our forum readership was so massivee
17:35:22 <due> galehar: I agree that adding more ops to the dev forum would be  agood idea
17:35:35 <due> galehar: At a glance, Koboldlord and galefury seem to be relatively sane.
17:36:22 <due> also, I've worked out next year's april fools joke :)
17:39:35 <elliptic> kilobyte: actually, 0.8 was haste nerf, wasn't it... I could be thinking of 0.8-a before haste nerf then
17:39:47 <elliptic> somehow I thought haste nerf was older than that
17:39:49 <due> (anyone for dungeons & dragons creawl stone soup? ;))
17:41:03 <dpeg> due: a good joke would be "Finally: dpeg fired from DCSS development"
17:41:13 * dpeg hopes it'll be a joke =)
17:41:46 <elliptic> due: narretz (OP in that tavern thread) is the only person I've heard complain about the change on ##crawl, fwiw
17:42:01 <due> elliptic: "That must be someone I have on ignore, then" ;)
17:42:33 <due> dpeg: If you leave, crawl would not be the same and I'm not sure I could continue developing without your ideas :)
17:43:17 <dpeg> due: I was referring to the "I' quit until this dpeg guy goes" or "I'll keep comlaining until they kick dpeg" etc. Don't worry.
17:43:26 <elliptic> kilobyte: so did you just change pan lords to all be 15 speed? are they all casters?
17:43:29 <due> dpeg: We can do without them, but not you! <3
17:43:44 <due> (And, yes I know you were kidding, but I felt the need to affirm my faith in you.)
17:46:41 <dpeg> hey, thansk! The threads weren't so bad, apart from the hostilities there was also support, so all is well
17:46:52 <MarvinPA> hm, i'm fairly sure i tested pan lord speeds when i made the melee-only pan lords faster than the regular ones and it worked then
17:47:08 <MarvinPA> i have no idea when that was though
17:47:48 <kilobyte> elliptic: broken in 1a3dc4af
17:47:53 <elliptic> MarvinPA: I'm not sure I've seen any melee-only pan lords in a long time :(
17:48:21 <due> I also only had one pan lord on my ascent last night
17:48:30 <due> though I was a spriggan
17:48:58 <elliptic> kilobyte: thanks
17:49:29 <elliptic> kilobyte: so what is the current status of them?
17:49:37 <due> okay, must head out
17:49:38 <due> ciao
17:50:52 <dpeg> bye
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17:51:28 <kilobyte> elliptic: pan lords now get random speed -- low in D, high in Pan and Zigs
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17:51:52 <kilobyte> not sure what's the point in this distinction
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17:53:35 <elliptic> oh, I missed that that code was still in for some reason... saw it got deleted from one place
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17:53:56 <elliptic> I'm not sure there's much point in the distinction either... probably some effort to be kind to orbrunners
17:54:03 <elliptic> but we don't really need to be :P
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17:55:07 <elliptic> I guess non-caster pan lords probably do generate, they are just only 10% of them so I haven't noticed
17:56:11 <kilobyte> in the past they were deemed to be useless so the chance was reduced to 10%
17:56:28 <kilobyte> now they get various boosts so it can be brough back
17:57:18 <kilobyte> was 2/3, is 1/10
17:57:44 <MarvinPA> they're probably still pretty lame
17:57:57 <MarvinPA> all they get is a bit of a speed boost really
17:58:20 <MarvinPA> and a guaranteed melee brand instead of a 2/3 chance of one iirc
17:58:55 <elliptic> they should probably get some other stuff, yeah
17:59:26 <elliptic> possibilities: higher damage, better defenses (AC/EV or resists), ?
18:00:44 <elliptic> (also we should bring back pan lords named Trog and guarantee that they have antimagic melee)
18:02:45 -!- HangedMan has joined ##crawl-dev
18:04:09 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * red2eff5fe118 10/crawl-ref/source/ghost.cc: Make 1/3 rather than 1/10 pan lords non-spellcasters, reduce brands on casters.
18:04:19 <CIA-8> 03kilobyte * r430fa3ffbba8 10/crawl-ref/source/ghost.cc: Drop the distinction between pan lords in connected branches vs Pan/Zig.
18:14:40 <Wensley> elliptic: if you're a be, does attacking the pan lord Trog incur wrath?
18:15:14 <|amethyst> "LET'S RASSLE"
18:15:21 <elliptic> yes, but the wrath ends when you kill Trog
18:15:31 <elliptic> (and you are no longer worshipping a god)
18:15:43 <Wensley> hahaha
18:16:24 <HangedMan> was this also what happened when you killed oka, sif, kiku, or nemelex in absolutely ancient crawl?
18:17:04 <elliptic> you stopped worshipping them if you were, yes (but you weren't)
18:17:20 <HangedMan> heh
18:17:57 <Wensley> I like the idea of coming upon nemelex's lair and finding all the crap that you've sacrified to him, and then re-sacrificing it
18:18:42 <dpeg> Wensley: this is not re-sacrifice, this is theft!
18:19:21 <Wensley> fortunately the penance you incur for stealing from nemelex is soon ended by his pleasure at your donation of 700 crystal plate mails
18:20:03 <HangedMan> I wonder what said gods/lords actually had for offense and what not
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18:23:40 <Wensley> what version of crawl was this? I've never even heard of this
18:23:58 <kilobyte> someone should check in all historic Crawls into the repository
18:24:03 <HangedMan> well pre-ss
18:24:19 <HangedMan> apparently evilmike found some commented-out notes about it in 3.something
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19:00:09 <kilobyte> ??webtiles
19:00:09 <Henzell> webtiles[1/3]: Play with tiles on cdo: http://tiles.crawl.develz.org. Use Chrome 4+, Firefox 6+ or Safari 5 for easiest access. Also works in Firefox 4/5 and Opera 11, but you have to change the browser's settings.
19:01:12 <kilobyte> edlothiol: webtiles don't work with Chrome 5.  Ancient but that's the only version ported to N900.
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19:01:35 <kilobyte> Opera scrolls vertically
19:04:01 <edlothiol> hmm, yes, it seems the learndb entry is wrong... the websocket version in chrome 4/5 is ancient and not supported :/
19:04:39 <edlothiol> !learn edit webtiles[1] s/4+/6+/
19:04:39 <Henzell> webtiles[1/3]: Play with tiles on cdo: http://tiles.crawl.develz.org. Use Chrome 6++, Firefox 6+ or Safari 5 for easiest access. Also works in Firefox 4/5 and Opera 11, but you have to change the browser's settings.
19:04:55 -!- ortoslon has quit [Client Quit]
19:05:04 <edlothiol> !learn edit webtiles[1] s/\+\+/+/
19:05:04 <Henzell> webtiles[1/3]: Play with tiles on cdo: http://tiles.crawl.develz.org. Use Chrome 6+, Firefox 6+ or Safari 5 for easiest access. Also works in Firefox 4/5 and Opera 11, but you have to change the browser's settings.
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19:23:19 <Soyweiser> Lol. everybody is joining to see the purrr rant?
19:23:36 <Soyweiser> *burrr*
19:25:41 <tensorpudding> he didn't join
19:28:20 <Soyweiser> Of course not.
19:28:31 <monqy> :(
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19:34:27 <Soyweiser> I think the communal "yes" was a clear hint what kind of reply he would get here.
19:35:13 <monqy> that or the communal "don't go to ##crawl-dev"
19:35:23 <evilmike> did something fun just happen?
19:35:57 <monqy> someone complained about md removal
19:36:18 <monqy> orcs and minotaurs are dumb, md has beards, etc. etc.
19:36:33 <evilmike> in ##crawl?
19:36:36 <monqy> yeah
19:36:55 <evilmike> oh well
19:36:57 <monqy> he was going to start a petition for minotaurs to get beards, or something
19:37:29 <elliptic> it was pointed out that minotaurs might already have beards though!
19:38:34 <evilmike> http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/oops-untimely-death-of-many-souls-cdo#comments
19:38:35 <evilmike> haha
19:38:47 <evilmike> someone should probably delete that comment
19:38:55 <HangedMan> the doll editor in tiles has an entire selection dedicated to beards
19:39:11 <HangedMan> and it works for everything that isn't draconians, felids, or octopodes
19:39:15 <HangedMan> so that is the stupidest argument
19:39:49 <monqy> no beards for draconians, felids, or octopodes? remove them all.
19:40:26 <Soyweiser> Felids, octopodes. What is next robots?
19:40:33 <kilobyte> remove humans who shave, too
19:40:38 <evilmike> crawl used to have robots ;)
19:40:45 <Soyweiser> Really? :D
19:40:57 <Soyweiser> Just like ff2 for the gameboy :D.
19:41:11 <HangedMan> guardian robots?
19:41:17 <Soyweiser> robots, mutants, eating meat of monsters.
19:41:17 <HangedMan> what was their name
19:41:22 <evilmike> Guardian robots and dorgi.
19:41:30 <Soyweiser> Ow, not as a player race?
19:41:34 <Soyweiser> dorgi?
19:41:39 <evilmike> zot monsters. They're from a very long time ago.
19:41:51 <HangedMan> they were apparently police
19:41:54 <G-Flex> I don't think FF2 was ever on game boy
19:42:07 <HangedMan> whatever that split off was called
19:42:16 <G-Flex> <monqy> he was going to start a petition for minotaurs to get beards, or something
19:42:24 <Soyweiser> there was a final fantasy <something> for the gamebody. I think it had 3 versions.
19:42:25 <G-Flex> bet you five bucks he's from the dwarf fortress forums
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19:42:28 <Soyweiser> not the same as normal ff2
19:42:31 <G-Flex> Soyweiser: oh, final fantasy adventure I think
19:42:35 <G-Flex> or final fantasy legends
19:42:39 <Cryp71c> Evening
19:42:42 <G-Flex> I believe both were just another series rebranded as "final fantasy" for release in the US
19:42:47 <Soyweiser> legends
19:43:11 <Soyweiser> ffl2 had robots, mutants and mosters that mutated by eating the remains of other monsters.
19:43:50 <G-Flex> yeah those were the SaGa games rebranded
19:44:20 <Soyweiser> Not that it is all very important. Most ff games have little in common with each other. (apart from a few injokes and character archetypes).
19:44:28 <G-Flex> that's not true
19:44:34 <G-Flex> FF games tend to be rather similar
19:44:51 <G-Flex> very similar gameplay paradigms, similar aesthetic and design, etc.
19:45:03 <G-Flex> just no connection in terms of narrative
19:45:17 <evilmike> might want to take this to ##crawl
19:45:28 <G-Flex> probably!!!
19:45:29 <Soyweiser> yeah, I was just thinking about that ;)
19:45:31 <G-Flex> ##crawl-dev-offtopic
19:45:33 <HangedMan> hah
19:45:40 <Soyweiser> this is not the place for this.
19:45:46 <HangedMan> yup
19:45:58 <HangedMan> except if you're arguing something about parallels of design over to this thing
19:46:01 <HangedMan> somehow
19:46:07 <HangedMan> probably involving numbers
19:46:09 <CIA-8> 03evilmike * r47727035d7df 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-spll.h: Give Lom Lobon Ice Storm as an emergency spell.
19:46:37 <MarvinPA> mmm
19:46:39 <MarvinPA> i approve
19:50:30 <Eronarn> < Soyweiser> Felids, octopodes. What is next robots?
19:50:34 <Eronarn> check wiki for golems
19:50:45 <HangedMan> golems are fantasy robots
19:51:03 <HangedMan> have you not read discworld or the not terrible stretch of xanth novels or or or
19:51:33 <Soyweiser> I have not read everything from discworld yet. And what I have read was ages ago. So nope :D
19:52:05 <HangedMan> feet of clay is like
19:52:07 <Soyweiser> But I wanted robots as a player race ;)
19:52:14 <HangedMan> 1996
19:52:17 <Cryp71c> Eronarn, hrmmmmm, Golems.
19:52:18 <Cryp71c> I like.
19:52:49 <Soyweiser> argh, the electric golem tile, with the 2 holes in it.
19:53:43 <HangedMan> huh, so it does
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20:04:05 <elliptic> HangedMan: wait there's a not terrible stretch of xanth novels?!
20:04:14 <HangedMan> um
20:04:17 <HangedMan> I'm presuming here
20:04:37 <HangedMan> I think only like one or two of them counts for that, and that's when you pretend the perverted parts don't exist
20:04:48 <HangedMan> and it's well before the stupid puns kicked in
20:05:00 <evilmike> wait, people actually read those?
20:05:35 <evilmike> (I've always judged books by their covers)
20:05:44 <elliptic> iirc the first couple weren't too bad, yeah
20:05:53 <elliptic> (they went downhill very quickly)
20:05:57 <HangedMan> yeah, when I said that I was thinking of the first three books
20:06:14 <HangedMan> and even then in the first three books there's an individual who's talent is purely "sex appeal"
20:08:25 <Eronarn> elliptic: the first one was great right up until it got creepy and then if you kept reading it means you didn't google the author and find his autobiography and read the first part of that and vow never to read his stuff again
20:09:19 <Soyweiser> <evilmike> might want to take this to ##crawl ;)
20:09:35 <HangedMan> fantasy designs have relevance to the devs
20:09:48 <HangedMan> even if it's for gods sakes don't do this shit
20:10:12 <Eronarn> crawl isn't allowed to do things if D&D did them first
20:10:30 <HangedMan> yes, so it's important to know if d&d did and what they did wrong
20:10:39 <Soyweiser> Finally I understand why the dwarf has been removed ;)
20:10:53 <HangedMan> quite
20:14:42 <Soyweiser> wow... those xanth plot summaries are weird.
20:14:49 <Soyweiser> Reading them on wikipedia.
20:15:35 <Soyweiser> They read like childrens stories.
20:16:22 <HangedMan> children's stories like the colour of her
20:16:27 <HangedMan> oh god I can't even type it out
20:17:08 <Soyweiser> yeah that is a bit creepy.
20:27:10 <tensorpudding> why did kenku really get renamed, anyway?
20:28:14 <elliptic> because Te makes more words than Ke
20:28:20 <evilmike> remove a d&dism, crawl kenkus are more like japanese tengus anyway, is an opportunity to make them more interesting in the future
20:28:21 <elliptic> didn't we explain this on ##crawl?
20:28:28 <elliptic> (seriously, what evilmike said)
20:28:32 <evilmike> if you disagree with those reasons that's fine, but those are the reasons ;)
20:28:44 <evilmike> it's really nothing to be concerned about though. A word changed.
20:28:55 <tensorpudding> i didn't see it on ##crawl, and i meant to ask there but i was in this window instead
20:29:53 <elliptic> evilmike: speaking of renaming, any more thoughts about s/HE/Si/ ?
20:30:08 <HangedMan> Si?
20:30:12 <elliptic> sidhe
20:30:12 <HangedMan> what, sidhe?
20:30:16 <tensorpudding> i thought tengus were explicitly demons, anyway
20:30:21 <tensorpudding> in the mythological sense
20:30:22 <HangedMan> I am the most prophetic
20:31:22 <evilmike> elliptic: I think it's worth it, but I also have just assumed this can be a 0.11 thing, so I haven't thought much more about what Si would get changed (aside from name + flavour)
20:31:57 <tensorpudding> hmm
20:32:00 <elliptic> right, it isn't urgent... but I think it could get into 0.10 if we wanted
20:32:08 <tensorpudding> reflavor high elves, then rename deep elves to elves
20:36:12 <G-Flex> why high elf renaming?
20:36:30 <HangedMan> why kenku renaming
20:36:37 <G-Flex> that was already explained
20:36:47 <evilmike> elliptic: I'll give it more thought then. Renaming probably should come along with *some* changes.. unlike kenku -> tengu the new name won't be very similar to the old one
20:36:50 <tensorpudding> i understand the renaming of high elves since it makes them more interesting
20:36:52 <evilmike> G-Flex: it's the same thing really
20:37:00 <G-Flex> I don't see "high elf" as a D&Dism
20:37:00 <tensorpudding> kenku -> tengu doesn't involve making anything more interesting though
20:37:21 <evilmike> it might later.
20:37:25 <G-Flex> then again, a lot of D&Disms have become firmly rooted enough that they're barely D&Disms anymore
20:37:27 <elliptic> evilmike: yeah, probably
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20:39:06 <tensorpudding> renaming high elf will continue the pattern of annoying users
20:42:18 <HangedMan> excellent
20:42:21 <HangedMan> do it immeadiately
20:44:37 <tensorpudding> i'm fine so long as high elf isn't completely removed
20:45:06 <G-Flex> I prefer high elves being a subtype of elves like they are now
20:45:07 <G-Flex> oh well
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20:59:02 <Mottie> For some reason I thought of renaming high elves GLORY ELVES.
20:59:14 <Mottie> But that's because I'm rretarded
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21:15:48 <evilmike> Level annotation: exclusion: Roxanne, Roxanne
21:15:52 <evilmike> haha, how'd that happen
21:17:10 <G-Flex> evilmike: it happened to me as well
21:17:14 <G-Flex> it's miming the song, obviously
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21:30:59 <SamB_XP> how about "high and mighty elves"
21:34:22 <G-Flex> high-horse elves
21:34:28 <Mottie> So
21:34:34 <Mottie> Why does the Slay-drac Brand exist?
21:34:46 <Mottie> Except to troll draconians when gnolls have it at a low level?
21:35:17 <elliptic> ??wyrmbane
21:35:17 <Henzell> wyrmbane[1/2]: A scale-covered lance +9,+6 Wyrmbane {slay drac, +Rage rPois rF+ AC+5}. Base type is spear. :'( Gains +1,+1 enchantment every time it lands the finishing blow against a dragon (up to the lower of +18 or the dragon's HD).
21:35:30 <elliptic> it could easily just be on wyrmbane and nothing else though IMO
21:35:46 <G-Flex> does slay orc still exist?
21:35:52 <G-Flex> ??slay orc
21:35:53 <Henzell> orc slaying[1/1]: Increases damage by 75% against orcs. It can only be found on artifacts. If a Beoghite, orcs will have a lowered chance of converting to friendly if you are wielding a weapon with this brand.
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