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02:20:15 <CIA-23> 03|amethyst * r19157c3804cb 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-damage.cc: Disable self-LRD for now (#5908).
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02:46:41 <dtsund> https://github.com/dtsund/crawl-light/commit/f0daef18467800c7e3df0ed677ac9a12ad64494e <-- No idea if this is of any interest to you, but figured I'd mention it here anyway
02:46:41 <Henzell> dtsund: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
02:46:44 <dtsund> !messages
02:46:44 <Henzell> (1/2) evilmike said (5d 49m 53s ago): I see you imported evilmike_wizard_prison into crawl light. I should warn you, this vault relies on a a gimmick with silent spectres (that I don't think works in light)
02:46:49 <dtsund> !messages
02:46:50 <Henzell> (1/1) evilmike said (5d 45m 27s ago): The idea is the wizards are silenced until the spectre is removed, and then they all wake up and blink out / summon crap. I dunno if this is doable in Light, but the spectre should probably be removed at least
02:47:00 <dtsund> evilmike: Aha, thanks.
02:47:18 <dtsund> Yeah, it probably won't work.
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02:48:03 <dtsund> !tell evilmike Aha, thanks; might not have caught that one in a hurry.
02:48:03 <Henzell> dtsund: OK, I'll let evilmike know.
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02:48:17 <evilmike> interesting looking spell, there
02:48:22 <evilmike> do people use it? how well does it work?
02:48:29 <dtsund> I *just* wrote it
02:48:36 <evilmike> ah, cool
02:48:37 <dtsund> So I have no idea how well it works
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02:51:39 <dtsund> I can envision interesting uses for the spell (illude before escape, illude as a sort of combat buff), but I have no idea whether they actually work, or might be overpowered.
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02:59:08 <evilmike> overpowered compared to other level 9 spells? :P
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03:25:44 <kilobyte> I'd say, ridiculously underpowered
03:25:56 <kilobyte> we're talking about what old sputterflies did
03:26:40 <kilobyte> besides the level, it's a good idea IMO, though
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05:00:01 <Gretell> OSX builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2777-g19157c3
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05:39:48 <kilobyte> GCC vs clang: clang is still slower, although with some really strange points
05:41:13 <kilobyte> on test 4 (-arena 'cerebov v test spawner delay:0') it's a good deal slower (2.47 vs 3.15), but on test 5 (-arena 'cerebov, lom lobon, mnoleg, gloorx vloq v ereshkigal, asmodeus, antaeus, dispater delay:0 t:6') it's a good deal faster (6.98 vs 6.00)
05:42:16 <kilobyte> I'd understand if these tests would be different (like, screen redraw vs monster AI) but here they're mostly identical...
05:42:17 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte * r2302989732b3 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/ (3 files in 3 dirs): Drop useless uses of _G from vault lua.
05:42:17 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte * rc07ccef77809 10/crawl-ref/source/ (15 files): Drop a bunch of useless uses of this->
05:42:18 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte * r831427b3421b 10/crawl-ref/source/main.cc: Unbreak Windows builds.
05:42:20 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte * r4a20bb18f0e7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files in 2 dirs): An undocumented command-line option, --no-save.
05:42:20 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte * rcd63a29a8262 10/crawl-ref/source/test/stress/fireworks.rc: Repair the fireworks stress test.
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07:13:57 <galehar> !seen grunt
07:14:00 <Henzell> I last saw Grunt at Tue Jul 10 04:59:03 2012 UTC (7h 14m 57s ago) quitting with message Quit: leaving.
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07:22:35 <kilobyte> !tell grunt could you create an account on gitorious?
07:22:36 <Henzell> kilobyte: OK, I'll let grunt know.
07:26:20 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte * r4c2075603a55 10/crawl-ref/source/mpr.h: Remove an obsolete comment.
07:26:30 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte * re9529475b9eb 10/crawl-ref/source/ (6 files): Basic infrastructure for de-spamming debug mode.
07:26:48 <alefury> evilmike: re MR and monster hexes, what about some of the ideas for that? Like guaranteed duration reduction but lower chance to outright resist, or a high chance to downgrade the effect and a lower chance to completely resist?
07:27:46 <alefury> kilobyte: what about the feature freeze? :P
07:28:01 <alefury> shouldnt that like, have happened a week ago?
07:29:08 <kilobyte> no new features are being added
07:29:23 <kilobyte> autoexplore trails are the last one I remember
07:29:41 <galehar> alefury: I don't think changes that only affect debug mode can be problematic regarding feature freeze and release cycle
07:30:06 <alefury> well, half the point of feature freeze is to get people to focus on bugfixing instead of making new stuff, right? :P
07:30:36 <kilobyte> ie, debugging :p
07:30:46 <alefury> oh, right :)
07:31:14 <kilobyte> in this very case, I'm looking more at performance improvements, but still
07:32:08 <alefury> Napking is probably happy about those...
07:32:08 <CIA-23> 03galehar 07shoals_colours * r10472ab95498 10/crawl-ref/source/travel.cc: Make the travel and display shore limit consistent.
07:32:08 <CIA-23> 03galehar 07shoals_colours * r12b44e960525 10/crawl-ref/source/ (branch-data.h dgn-height.h showsymb.cc travel.cc): Make the Shoals floor brown/yellow depending on height (wet sand).
07:32:16 <galehar> kilobyte: how about this one? It's not a new feature, it's finishing a recent one (fixing shoals exploration)
07:32:44 <galehar> kilobyte: I'd like your opinion on it btw
07:32:52 <alefury> unfinished stuff in release versions sucks
07:33:16 <kilobyte> there's still no answer from elliptic about the date of the tourney
07:33:57 <galehar> I think it only lacks a rename (like shallow water (tidal)) and tiles (which are on mantis)
07:34:37 <galehar> I'll finish it quickly and if nobody opposes, merge it
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07:35:17 <galehar> also, can we add tiles during feature freeze? Because there are a bunch of them waiting on mantis
07:39:31 <alefury> i think tiles were added long after freeze last time (it happened fairly early iirc)
07:40:13 <galehar> I think as long as it doesn't need new code it's fine
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07:43:07 <edlothiol> speaking of tiles, there's still the rod tile thing
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07:43:52 <edlothiol> I see two ways to fix it properly (without a huge refactoring): 1. reserve 100 tile indexes for all combinations of rod image/rod type
07:44:06 <edlothiol> or 2. use the mcache for items, too
07:44:52 <kilobyte> perhaps they could be changed to the same hack as staves?
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07:47:21 <edlothiol> staves always have the same unidentified appearance for the same type, don't they?
07:47:33 <alefury> yes
07:48:28 <edlothiol> the problem is, rods don't, so the hack doesn't work there
07:52:43 <galehar> edlothiol: I'd say use the easiest solution and disregard long term. Rods are likely to be overhauled at some point.
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07:53:58 <alefury> edlothiol: wait, what? rods dont?
07:54:26 <alefury> i may be misremembering, but i think they do
07:55:10 <edlothiol> alefury: nope (try creating a few rods of venom in wizmode)
07:55:14 <MarvinPA> they do, you just still have to wield them to identify their pluses/maxcharges
07:55:30 <MarvinPA> oh wait
07:56:17 <MarvinPA> i guess not, huh
07:56:28 <alefury> maybe its a wizmode thing?
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07:56:57 <alefury> acquirement also gives rods reliably
07:57:46 <kilobyte> oh hrm, using that staff hack would mean no randart rods :(
08:05:09 <galehar> oh, hey MarvinPA! Could you try the shoals_colours branch and tell me what you think of it?
08:05:26 <MarvinPA> ah, sure
08:05:36 <galehar> thanks :)
08:05:45 <MarvinPA> i spotted it in commit emails but didn't realise it was a separate branch, sounds like a good idea at least
08:06:04 <CIA-23> 03galehar 07shoals_colours * r1b6856f6d96f 10/crawl-ref/source/directn.cc: Rename tidal waters and wet sands in examine surrounding mode.
08:06:53 <galehar> as I said, if nobody opposes, it won't stay in a branch for much longer!
08:07:19 <ChrisOelmueller> i hope it stays in a lair branch
08:08:55 <ghallberg> Yeah, we're talking about a git branch there right?
08:09:37 <galehar> has the unicode-tiles branch been rebased? Is that ok to rebase and force push branches like that?
08:09:51 <galehar> ChrisOelmueller, ghallberg: yes of course
08:11:18 <kilobyte> galehar: I had to drop my commit that added debugging via dumping textures to .PNG, as in the meantime frogbotherer removed those giant textures
08:11:36 <kilobyte> and those commits had, obviously, nasty conflicts
08:12:16 <kilobyte> since I doubt you had any commits on top of that branch, this should be harmless
08:12:50 <galehar> ok. but is it ok to rebase such branch just to cleanup, reorder, fixup, etc... even if not necessary?
08:13:10 <galehar> I think it is, the benefit outweight the drawbacks
08:13:38 <kilobyte> I'd rebase only on the final merge, if possible
08:14:04 <kilobyte> unless there's some non-minor breakage
08:14:36 <galehar> alright then
08:15:54 <kilobyte> I doubt many people have your branch, though
08:16:13 <galehar> I was thinking in general
08:16:21 <galehar> and also more specifically about the veh branch
08:16:38 <galehar> which is taking dust
08:16:40 <kilobyte> you just told MarvinPA to review it for example, so he'd have to force-reset, but he's a big kid so it's not a hard blocker :p
08:17:44 <galehar> but requiring people to force-reset is a minor inconvenience, isn't it?
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08:22:06 <kilobyte> on a non really public branch, acceptable, yeah
08:23:53 <|amethyst> hm, crawl.org is only $5175
08:24:04 <alefury> pffff
08:24:05 <|amethyst> "only"
08:25:20 <alefury> crawl.com is also for sale :P
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08:26:06 <MarvinPA> galehar: looks okay to me, i guess a minor problem would be that yellow overlaps with halos as a floor colour
08:26:09 <galehar> kilobyte: that's what I meant. Rebasing the veh branch for cleaning up isn't going to upset anyone
08:27:13 <galehar> MarvinPA: yeah, that's what I feared. Maybe I can drop the wet sand / dry sand.
08:27:22 <MarvinPA> which was problematic in branches where the entire floor used to be yellow (tiles could spot mennas before he came into view, console you'd have to be xing every square of floor :P)
08:27:45 <galehar> since this limit has no effect on exploration
08:28:45 <MarvinPA> possibly, yeah
08:28:48 <galehar> I feel the wet sand idea makes the tide system more visible
08:29:12 <galehar> and there's not enough dry sand to really hide an aura
08:29:12 <MarvinPA> poor console needs more colours :P
08:29:26 <galehar> 256 colours for 0.12!
08:29:27 <MarvinPA> yeah, there's not a huge amount of it so it might just be fine as-is
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08:29:56 <galehar> ok, I'll add tiles and merge it unless someone yells at me
08:30:22 <MarvinPA> oh, and tidal water and [wet] sand don't have descriptions, that's the only other thing i spotted
08:30:27 <kilobyte> Mennas can spawn on Shoals:5 only, if he causes a problem, we can drop him from there (or Lair branches at all)
08:30:45 <|amethyst> there is a status light for external silence now
08:31:08 <|amethyst> oh, out-of-view
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08:31:29 <galehar> should tidal waters and wet sand have descriptions?
08:31:53 <kilobyte> every feature
08:32:18 <MarvinPA> well at least just the same description as shallow water/regular sand
08:32:28 <MarvinPA> but it can't hurt to mention the tides in there too
08:32:36 <galehar> ok, I'll add it
08:32:40 <kilobyte> DEPTH:  D:20-27, Swamp:5, Snake:5, Shoals:5, Spider:5, Vaults:4-, Crypt, Blade, Tomb
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08:33:29 <MarvinPA> also that halo thing reminds me, autoexplore really ought to stop when a halo or silence aura comes into view
08:34:08 <MarvinPA> it's one of the few cases where autoexploring (especially with delay -1) really has a big downside
08:34:13 <kilobyte> for 256 colours, let's not add them anywhere in the default config.  Also, it would break ttyrecs and watching games on DGL
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08:53:04 <Grunt> |amethyst, sorry for letting some self-LRD code slip through :(
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08:53:47 <galehar> hi Grunt!
08:54:21 <galehar> Grunt: are you interested in joining the dev team?
08:54:37 <galehar> because we'd like to recruit you :)
08:57:22 <Grunt> Of course!
08:57:29 <Grunt> \o/
08:57:59 <kilobyte> please make an account on gitorious then
08:58:00 <Henzell> kilobyte: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
08:58:08 <Grunt> I already have one, as Henzell will tell you.
08:58:10 <Grunt> "grunt" :)
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09:01:02 <galehar> there, you have commit rights
09:01:11 <galehar> you're officially a memeber of the team :)
09:01:18 <galehar> who can give him the +v?
09:01:30 <|amethyst> galehar:  you have an @ you know :)
09:02:13 <|amethyst> You'll also need to talk to Napkin and rax for upgrades to your accounts
09:02:15 <CIA-23> 03|amethyst * r315c7ef50eea 10/crawl-ref/ (CREDITS.txt git-hooks/crawl-ref-cia): Cakes and ale for Grunt. Welcome to the devteam!
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09:02:31 <galehar> yeah, I mean don't we have to configure the bots or something so that it gets the +v automatically?
09:02:34 <|amethyst> And add yourself to  https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:admin:devteam
09:02:43 <|amethyst> oh, I have no idea
09:03:04 <Grunt> Do you normally use ChanServ to do that?
09:03:19 <galehar> oh yeah, that must be it
09:04:04 <ChrisOelmueller> probably add Grunt to some kind of 'dev' template
09:04:21 <Grunt> There's a template called "committer", which is probably what you want.
09:04:39 <Grunt> /msg chanserv access ##crawl-dev add Grunt committer
09:04:46 <ChrisOelmueller> yeah i didn't actually bother to look them up. :)
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09:05:35 <galehar> well, I don't have rights for this command
09:06:35 <galehar> I can do that though :)
09:07:25 <Grunt> :)
09:08:51 <galehar> ok, you can now push yourself all your patches waiting on Mantis :)
09:08:57 <|amethyst> btw, I haven't pointed it anywhere yet, but I registered dobrazupa.org to point to a potential new server... if someone wants it let me know
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09:09:00 <ChrisOelmueller> except tomb. :P
09:09:17 <rax> Upgrades to accounts?
09:09:27 <rax> Oh right I can set the thingamabobber so you can download saves and such
09:09:32 <|amethyst> rax:  Grunt's a dev now, needs wizmode and saves
09:10:15 <Grunt> I think most of my residual uploads at this point that aren't vaults would be considered features, except possibly the attack verbs thing.
09:10:20 <galehar> yeah, for the most drastic ideas, it's better to discuss them here before committing
09:10:44 <galehar> and yeah, feature freeze too
09:11:01 <kilobyte> the attack verb is quite problematic: it can lead to extremely long messages
09:11:18 <Grunt> kilobyte, at the moment, I have it configured as a disabled-by-default option.
09:13:57 <kilobyte> currently, there's "Your spectral deep elf necromancer hits the helpless deep dwarf berserker with a cursed -1,+13 demon trident "Arsekicker" {flame, rElec, rF--, rC++, MUT+} from afar!!!"
09:14:04 <kilobyte> already two lines
09:14:37 <galehar> the weapon doesn't need to be this detailled
09:14:53 <galehar> weapon type should be enough for fight messages
09:15:30 <galehar> also, we should have a rule about adding options. If you want to add one, you need to remove an obsolete/useless one!
09:15:44 <ChrisOelmueller> if you identified a randart previously, you should imo also see that the monster is using exactly that artifact
09:16:01 <ChrisOelmueller> not sure whether pluses and weapon type would be sufficient for that
09:16:05 <rax> Grunt: I think you are updated on user Grunt now
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09:16:09 <galehar> ChrisOelmueller: you can be examining the monster
09:16:17 <Grunt> Thanks rax!
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09:17:00 <rax> Grunt: No problem, let me know if it didn't work :)
09:17:03 <kilobyte> the artefact should definitely be described
09:17:07 <rax> this isn't a process I have to do very often ;)
09:17:19 <kilobyte> even worse, there are artefacts for which the base type makes no sense
09:17:31 <galehar> I think Napkin has rights for the chanserv access
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09:17:45 <ghallberg> give the name of the artefact and more info in monster info?
09:17:48 <kilobyte> there's no "lance", "shillelagh" or "flamberge"
09:18:16 <|amethyst> flamberge?
09:18:21 -!- tJener has quit [Client Quit]
09:18:27 <ChrisOelmueller> getting hit by "hellfire" sounds cool
09:19:19 <kilobyte> Cerebov's sword, although I don't see that word anywhere in the source anymore
09:21:01 <Grunt> Oh, before I forget to ask, who's responsible for Mantis access levels?
09:21:14 <Grunt> ...if I fix a bug, I would like to be able to resolve the issue myself. :)
09:21:17 <rax> I think Napkin but am not 100% sure
09:21:19 <Napkin> no, don't highlight me again!
09:21:24 <Grunt> Too late!
09:21:24 <Napkin> too late ;)
09:21:25 <|amethyst> :)
09:21:25 <rax> sorrryyyyyyyyyyyyyy ^^;;
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09:22:36 <Napkin> no "grunt" in manits :-O
09:22:42 <Grunt> I'm sgrunt on Mantis.
09:22:43 <Napkin> *mantis
09:22:58 <Grunt> (I'm not exactly sure what caused that dysjunction. <_<)
09:23:09 <Grunt> *disjunction
09:23:13 <galehar> Napkin: what about /msg chanserv access ##crawl-dev add Grunt committer
09:23:15 <galehar> can tou?
09:23:21 <galehar> *you
09:23:40 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  oh, I see... I was thinking it didn't look like a flamberge at all, but the player doll tile does
09:24:15 <Napkin> Grunt: you may want to disable "access-level emails" in your mantis profile, if you get too many.
09:24:29 <Grunt> I can handle a bit of access level e-mail spam. :)
09:25:06 <Napkin> done, galehar
09:25:09 <kilobyte> hrm, I can't find the word "flamberge" in past commits as well, can't recall where I could think about it being called this way
09:25:18 -!- Jatoskep has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
09:25:20 <Napkin> do you have an account on CDO's DGL, grunt?
09:25:31 <kilobyte> procmail
09:25:34 <Grunt> I'm SGrunt on CDO's DGL.
09:25:46 <ChrisOelmueller> kilobyte: there's some talk about it in the logs of this channel
09:25:52 <ChrisOelmueller> around december '11
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09:28:14 <Napkin> ok, wizard mode enabled, Grunt
09:28:27 <Napkin> anything else to do?
09:28:48 <galehar> can he download save files too?
09:29:13 <Napkin> mantis account level developer required for that - so yes
09:29:24 <galehar> then I think he's set
09:29:44 <Napkin> excellent :)
09:30:42 <galehar> Grunt: have you subscribed to c-r-d?
09:30:48 <Grunt> I will do that now.
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09:31:19 <galehar> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/crawl-ref-discuss
09:33:23 <Grunt> Done.
09:33:43 <kilobyte> something tells me the list of new dev stuff should be written somewhere
09:34:19 <galehar> good idea
09:34:39 <galehar> along with who has rights to do each thing
09:36:38 <MarvinPA> kilobyte: i see you unbroke windows builds once recently already, but there's a new compile error it seems :P
09:36:42 <MarvinPA> package.cc: In constructor 'package::package()':
09:36:42 <MarvinPA> package.cc:135: error: 'mkstemp' was not declared in this scope
09:36:55 <kilobyte> MarvinPA: ...
09:37:06 <galehar> he unbroke, but he forgot to fix ;)
09:37:41 <kilobyte> heh, breaking it again a different way the very next commit :p
09:37:50 <MarvinPA> :D
09:38:08 <kilobyte> got to trot though, see you in an hour or so.
09:39:01 <MarvinPA> righto, cya
09:39:16 <MarvinPA> also welcome, grunt :)
09:40:04 <Grunt> Thanks MarvinPA!
09:40:47 <kilobyte> galehar: could you tell us what transifer option to use to have it pull korean translations?  No matter which option I use to get unreviewed stuff, it doesn't create the files.
09:41:23 <kilobyte> (just in case you won't be on in the evening, I wanted to copy&paste glyphs into the font for 0.11)
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09:48:41 <galehar> tx pull -a
09:48:50 <galehar> should pull everything
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09:50:01 <galehar> tx pull -l ko --skip
09:50:06 <galehar> to pull just korean
09:50:30 <galehar> the --skip is to prevent it from stopping when it can't find a resource file
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09:55:16 <|amethyst> is there any way monsters can destroy stone currently?
09:56:37 <|amethyst> I wonder if the possibility of monsters with shatter/LRD breaks any vaults
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09:58:15 <CIA-23> 03galehar * r55dd3a9192c2 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/new_dev_checklist.txt: A checklist for all the tasks to do when a new developer joins the team.
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10:04:08 <CIA-23> 03|amethyst * r4ae42f60e597 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/new_dev_checklist.txt: Neuter pronouns.
10:04:22 <ChrisOelmueller> clearly there only ever will be male developers- oh fixed already
10:05:24 <|amethyst> I blame proto-Indo-European
10:07:38 -!- Flyne has quit [Quit: Page closed]
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10:09:48 <galehar> I never remember how to properly use genderless pronouns
10:10:09 <galehar> in french, we just use male by default
10:10:24 <|amethyst> that was the case in English 50 years ago
10:10:52 <ChrisOelmueller> so now people beat up each other over "themself" vs "themselves"
10:10:56 <ChrisOelmueller> no progress
10:11:07 <|amethyst> When the person is indefinite, it is safe in all but very formal writing to use plural
10:11:08 <galehar> although politicians like to ugly and stupid stuff like (s)he
10:11:47 -!- andrewhl has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:11:47 <galehar> ChrisOelmueller: there is a girl in the team
10:11:53 <galehar> used to be 2
10:12:02 <galehar> eino and jpeg
10:12:02 <ChrisOelmueller> i'm aware of that
10:14:06 <CIA-23> 03|amethyst * r6bf6fde72959 10/crawl-ref/docs/develop/new_dev_checklist.txt: Missed one.
10:14:07 <|amethyst> what doesn't work as well, sadly, is using "they" for a specific person of unspecified gender
10:14:07 -!- maahes has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
10:14:58 <|amethyst> so you couldn't say "The orc covers their eyes."
10:15:01 -!- dpeg has joined ##crawl-dev
10:15:06 <dpeg> !seen Grunt
10:15:06 <Henzell> I last saw Grunt at Tue Jul 10 14:40:04 2012 UTC (35m 1s ago) saying Thanks MarvinPA! on ##crawl-dev.
10:15:09 <Grunt> dpeg: Hi!
10:15:23 <dpeg> Hey I'm late... Good stuff, Grunt!
10:15:29 <Grunt> Thanks! :)
10:15:33 <galehar> hey dpeg
10:15:58 <dpeg> Nice to see the whippersnappers in their youthful activity :)
10:18:06 <galehar> is he? I should have added a birth year column in the devteam wiki page
10:18:32 <|amethyst> I have no idea how old any of the devs are, other than myself and the ones with wikipedia articles
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10:19:03 <galehar> I'm 34. I think kilobyte is too
10:19:11 <|amethyst> 31 here
10:19:27 <dpeg> I am 66 and was forced to "retire on my own behalf from the devteam".
10:19:39 <dpeg> Ageism, I tell you!
10:20:04 <|amethyst> Hey, at least you get a pension of twice your annual salary!
10:20:50 <|amethyst> s/!//
10:21:03 <galehar> dpeg: since you're around, you might be interested in this: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5902
10:21:03 <dpeg> From the DCSS funds? Nope, they cut saying that "my contributions were mixed, mostly lackluster and in the end strictly detrimental".
10:21:25 <dpeg> galehar: ah, thanks
10:21:36 -!- MarvinPA has joined ##crawl-dev
10:21:37 <dpeg> Okay, okay, I'm 36.
10:21:57 -!- buppy has quit [Quit: Page closed]
10:22:40 <|amethyst> dpeg:  Also, I was going to revive https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=2299 and wondered if you had suggestions for the other gods
10:24:05 <dpeg> |amethyst: sure! Should I comment in Mantis, or here?
10:24:48 <|amethyst> hm... mantis might be better, since I'll have to make some changes to the code for that and would rather wait until after release
10:25:13 -!- Wahaha is now known as Wahaha_
10:25:38 <|amethyst> (namely, ghosts of good god worshippers should get a property storing their original religion)
10:28:53 <dpeg> ah, nice
10:29:05 <dpeg> in other news, nicolas and I have a working proposal for a spider god
10:29:15 <alefury> neat!
10:29:29 <dpeg> I think it has some interesting twists. You'll see.
10:30:29 -!- ussdefiant_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
10:32:32 <alefury> wow, those messages in 2299 are pretty cool
10:32:48 <alefury> dpeg: post it on tavern for fun!
10:33:09 <alefury> 21 pages later...
10:34:22 -!- mong has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
10:37:09 <dpeg> alefury: yes, just reading through them. Not sure I can really improve on that. Had no idea that minmay can be funny.
10:37:33 <alefury> heh, you even commented on them in the mantis thing
10:37:41 <alefury> but forgetting about that after two years is understandable :P
10:39:36 <dpeg> alefury: I have commented on so many things... Sanity demands to forget, just to live in peace :)
10:41:24 <dpeg> erm, I cannot comment -- that voluntary self-degradation to Mantis viewer now proves to be a burden -- anyone can help me out?
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10:43:32 <MarvinPA> looks like we'll have to invoke napkin again :P
10:43:40 <dpeg> What have I done?
10:43:51 * dpeg shakes head in disbelief.
10:44:01 <MarvinPA> heh
10:44:13 <dpeg> !seen Napkin
10:44:15 <Henzell> I last saw Napkin at Tue Jul 10 14:29:44 2012 UTC (1h 14m 31s ago) saying excellent :) on ##crawl-dev.
10:44:43 <ChrisOelmueller> poor Napkin gets pinged all day and night
10:44:44 <dpeg> !tell Napkin Hi Marc! Machste mir wieder einen Status auf Mantis, mit dem ich kommentieren kann? Danke!
10:44:44 <Henzell> dpeg: OK, I'll let Napkin know.
10:44:48 <ChrisOelmueller> now i did it again!
10:45:24 <dpeg> ChrisOelmueller: this makes him feel respected and very VIPpy, don't worry.
10:47:04 <galehar> dpeg: you're still a dev on mantis
10:47:13 <galehar> are you sure you're logged on?
10:47:24 <galehar> also, you can't escape your fate that easily ;)
10:48:03 <|amethyst> galehar:  says "viewer" for me
10:49:48 <galehar> oh, that must be the wiki
10:50:13 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.11-a0-2788-g6bf6fde (33)
10:50:35 <galehar> maybe I can't manage mantis permissions then. Only wiki. I thought they were the same
10:51:15 <dpeg> galehar: yes, really need Napkin for that one.
10:51:22 <galehar> dpeg: Napkin has expressed recently a lack of motivation and wanting to hand over the servers
10:55:20 <dpeg> galehar: I am not really surprised. He's been doing this for ages.
10:55:50 <alefury> well, he did sound a bit serious yesterday :(
10:56:02 <dpeg> I guess Napkin has been mounting card-to-tape converters in his youth. Give an old man a break.
10:56:03 -!- PoopBridge has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
10:56:09 <alefury> or do you mean handling the servers, not talking about lack of motivation?
10:56:11 <|amethyst> alefury:  I think "doing this" means "running the server" :)
10:56:16 -!- Aryth has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
10:56:21 <dpeg> I mean handling the servers, not the jammering.
10:57:04 <dpeg> When he decides to go, he should get a present: a permanent CDO account where nothing bad happens.
10:57:53 <galehar> give him just 1 HP, but indestructible one.
10:58:07 <MarvinPA> so you just can't start new games? :P
10:58:53 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
10:59:32 <galehar> ok, have to go
10:59:34 <dpeg> He was more easily despaired by OOD encounters or other bad luck than most ##crawl-devers, I would say :)
10:59:36 <galehar> 'later guys
10:59:38 <dpeg> galehar: bye!
11:02:27 <dpeg> One question: is it possible to keep Yiuf's as a normal vault but to *also* make it come up regularly in the foresty serial vault?
11:05:13 <alefury> i think so, it works for jory in crypt:$
11:05:23 <alefury> i think
11:05:40 <alefury> maybe it was something else...
11:05:49 <rax> Oh actually while we are talking about disillusioned server admins, who's running the August tournament? I may not be able to replace hardware in time, I need to talk to them about making things work
11:06:17 -!- maahes_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:06:18 <alefury> elliptic i think?
11:06:54 <rax> Ah most likely. I will msg elliptic, thanks!
11:07:35 <dpeg> disillusioned server admins... remember the days when you started with that tiny mit edu thingy, rax?
11:08:10 <rax> I do :)
11:08:16 <rax> and I am in fact shopping for new CAO hardware
11:08:24 <rax> and working on documenting things so I can share the server load more easily
11:08:46 <rax> but my colo provider is dropping me in August unexpectedly so we'll see what happens :/
11:09:43 <dpeg> rax: did you know that someone just recently set up two new servers? (Australia and West Coast, I think)
11:09:58 <rax> Wow, awesome
11:10:01 <alefury> webtiles only, though
11:10:06 <alefury> i think
11:10:20 <alefury> i think a lot today :/
11:10:23 <rax> I would like to get webtiles on CAO post-upgrade
11:10:44 <rax> but it is a lower priority than making sure CAO exists and making sure there is enough disk space to run the tournament :)
11:10:55 <ghallberg> It would be cool if we could have a single "portal-server" and it just distributed the load on the others.
11:11:11 <kilobyte> and common authentication
11:11:19 <dpeg> yes, good points
11:11:24 <ghallberg> And saves.
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11:11:27 <ghallberg> Somehow.
11:11:35 <dpeg> would need some discussion among server admins... the earlier, the better
11:11:36 <ghallberg> Not an easy problem though :)
11:11:38 <|amethyst> I registered a domain for crawl purposes, but haven't looked much into hosting yet
11:12:49 <rax> It's not an easy problem at all
11:13:03 <rax> It's an interesting one but I don't have much time to put into solving it :(
11:13:28 <edlothiol> I have plans for that, but they're far from ready
11:13:43 <edlothiol> and it's more complicated for console, I think ;)
11:13:55 <dpeg> edlothiol: it should always be the other way around =)
11:14:13 <edlothiol> not in this case :)
11:14:49 <edlothiol> with a website, we can for example easily have the client contact another server for authentication
11:14:53 <alefury> edlothiol: i dont think load balancing is that relevant in console? and shared authenthication shouldnt be that much worse...
11:15:24 <alefury> just have to distribute the account list to all servers, then you can authenticate to the server directly
11:15:42 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
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11:15:49 <alefury> alternatively the server can ask the other server...
11:15:58 <alefury> but that seems icky
11:16:01 <dpeg> yes, what should be easy is that all servers share accounts
11:16:25 <|amethyst> dpeg:  giving it serial_forest works, but I don't know if it's possible to give it different weights depending on which tag it's being placed with
11:17:46 <dpeg> |amethyst: I guess you are much more familiar with this than I am... I think it'd be cool if serial vaults could also incorporate fitting ordinary vaults.
11:17:52 <|amethyst> well
11:18:00 <|amethyst> It's possible, since it's just some lua code in the vault
11:18:18 <edlothiol> alefury: actually, it doesn't seem that icky to me... if we distribute the account list, we have to take care to synchronize it for example
11:18:31 <|amethyst> in the serial vault, that is
11:18:54 <alefury> mhh, i guess its the standard way to do this kind of stuff
11:19:17 <edlothiol> although it would be less problematic if we only have one place where you can register accounts
11:19:24 <alefury> and it might share more code with the way webtiles would do it
11:19:47 <edlothiol> it might
11:21:21 <dpeg> |amethyst: will adding the serial vault TAG to Yiuf's do the trick?
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11:23:11 <|amethyst> dpeg:  That's what I was doing at first, but it seems like you'd want to be able to use different weights
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11:24:39 <|amethyst> but I guess it's not so bad really
11:24:43 <dpeg> |amethyst: yes, I agree
11:25:07 <|amethyst> what should the chance be of the serial vault placing Yiuf?
11:26:03 <alefury> more importantly, what crazy stuff will he do in the forest?
11:26:17 <alefury> the variable size hammer collection is just incredibly awesome
11:26:22 <|amethyst> stay in his hut and philosophise, same as usual
11:26:29 <dpeg> jeez, I get pinged while crawling with "bring back MD" :|
11:26:53 <dpeg> |amethyst: that of a normal serial vault member is fine.
11:26:53 <alefury> haha
11:27:18 <|amethyst> dpeg:  then the tag it is :)
11:27:25 <alefury> dpeg: thats what you get for taking responsibility for the dwarficide
11:27:35 <alefury> no good deed goes unpunished!
11:28:07 <kilobyte> you may want to check you.uniques["Crazy Yiuf"] to check if the vault should be vetoed
11:28:15 <kilobyte> or tag is uniq_yiuf
11:28:26 <kilobyte> s/is/it/
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11:29:16 <dpeg> alefury: people are still bitter... isn't it more than one year ago? People forget being lied at by their politicians within days, but they remember MD--.
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11:30:38 <alefury> well, this is about dwarves
11:30:44 <alefury> also, nerdrage
11:30:48 <|amethyst> kilobyte:   why isn't it working that way already?
11:31:07 <kilobyte> bring back halflings!  Back to the way they were in 2.69!
11:31:54 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  does dgn.place_maps not respect the lack of allow_dup ?
11:31:58 <dpeg> Heck, this guy is typing whole pamphlets for me to read in _ console
11:32:19 <kilobyte> |amethyst: it wasn't ever needed before.  Vaults either have no effect if the unique already spawned elsewhere, or have a replacement.
11:32:51 <kilobyte> |amethyst: it does... but if you have two vaults that can place Yiuf, you need to make them mutually exclusive
11:33:21 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  I was just going to add the "serial_forest" tag to uniq_crazy_yiuf_cottage
11:33:54 <kilobyte> that would work too
11:34:09 -!- alefury has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Iceape 2.0.11/20120421074340]]
11:34:10 <dpeg> yes, cannot have Yiuf without his cottage -- where he's gotta do all the thinking else?
11:34:44 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  actually, I'm not sure if it does work, or if this is a problem with the way I'm doing it in wizmode
11:35:28 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  I give the serial vault PLACE: D:2, start a game, and use &L to generate the cottage on D:1
11:36:09 <dtsund> dpeg: I think MD-- was not quite a year ago.
11:36:17 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  I go down to D:2, and &^R a few times, and get yiuf's cottage (devoid of yiuf of course)
11:36:43 -!- jvj24601 has quit [Quit: Page closed]
11:37:47 <dpeg> dtsund: yes, I agree. But it surely feels like it!
11:38:24 <|amethyst> A year ago is approximately when I started playing
11:38:38 <|amethyst> oh, looks like 13 months
11:39:30 <dpeg> Whippersnapper!
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11:39:32 * dtsund agrees with the reasoning behind the removal, but will probably kill Mi instead of MD in Light
11:39:37 <|amethyst> a year ago was my first win
11:39:51 <dpeg> dtsund: hey, always going for popularity, eh? :)
11:40:00 <|amethyst> beginner's luck I think
11:40:13 <dtsund> Actually, it's because I see commonality with other fantasy games as a virtue, rather than a vice
11:40:53 <dtsund> It's good to have distinguishing elements like the pantheon, but also good to have common base elements; the familiarity is good for new players.
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11:42:09 <|amethyst> I'd better be off... later
11:42:13 <dpeg> bye!
11:42:39 <dpeg> dtsund: sure, but I believe that Crawl is big enough to afford its own twist on the staples.
11:42:47 <dtsund> There's less cognitive overhead involved in seeing "Minotaur" and looking up what it does than in seeing "Mountain Dwarf" and immediately knowing what they do based on experience with other games, is what I mean
11:43:12 <dtsund> It's a small thing, but small things add up
11:44:00 <dtsund> s/less/more/
11:47:32 <bhaak> when are you finally going to kill humans? they are good for nothing?
11:47:38 <dpeg> As in any religion, there's a question to which extent one should follow the canon. Clearly, new players should realise at once that Crawl sits squarely in the "fantasy" background. But on the other hand, there's no point in the following the sources to the T, imo.
11:48:06 * dpeg makes a note that the Swiss are campaigning for homicide, now that they already have all our money.
11:48:22 <bhaak> the Swiss != this Swiss
11:48:41 <bhaak> otherwise i would fund some roguelike development :)
11:49:22 <dpeg> hehe
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11:52:28 <HangedMan> the high fantasy background, infamous for killer klowns, curse toes, death yaks, and triple swords
11:52:37 -!- dtsund has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
11:52:47 <bhaak> and mad human scientists
11:53:44 <ghallberg> death dobs.
11:53:48 <ghallberg> cobs.
11:54:02 <ghallberg> almost wrotde cods the second time.
11:55:16 -!- MarvinPA has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
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11:59:16 <Napkin> done, dpeg
11:59:17 <Henzell> Napkin: You have 5 messages. Use !messages to read them.
12:00:31 -!- ac13 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
12:01:32 <dpeg> Napkin: you rock, as ever!
12:01:52 <Napkin> :-P @ 1hp!
12:01:59 <Napkin> dpeg :)
12:04:32 <Napkin> well, looks like poor kilobyte will have to do mantis admin soon, too ;>
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12:11:03 <dpeg> Napkin: so it is decided, you pass the buck?
12:11:07 -!- hoody_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:12:06 <Napkin> well, i just can't manage to get things done there anymore
12:12:21 <Napkin> have been trying to write automated installs for webtiles for half a year now
12:12:31 <dpeg> no time, or no energy?
12:12:43 <Napkin> i think someone else may be quicker and would proove more useful to the community
12:12:52 <kilobyte> dpeg: without a new generation, there won't be Crawl in the future, and he's busy spawning a new one :)
12:13:18 <Napkin> both. little free time, which i'm not motivated to spend in front of the computer, when i did exactly that the whole day already
12:14:08 <Napkin> at least, not motivated to spend them "working" with the computer ;)
12:17:39 <dpeg> Napkin: Braten in der Röhre??
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12:23:10 <Napkin> da gibbt noch kein offizelles statement drüber ;-P
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12:23:49 <dpeg> Alles klar! Viel Glück...
12:24:00 <Napkin> so... ich habe noch keinen Feierabend *grummel* weiter geht's!
12:24:03 <Napkin> later o/
12:24:55 <Grunt> Okay, time to put these privileges of mine to use to something that's not directly trunk-related (not until at least 0.12 rolls around, at least)...
12:26:34 <CIA-23> 03Grunt 07forest * r02924297d0c0 10/crawl-ref/source/ (10 files in 3 dirs): Forest updates.
12:26:34 <CIA-23> 03Grunt 07forest * r130fabe1ebdc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (forest.cc terrain.cc): New Forest morphing algorithm and general code cleanup.
12:26:34 <CIA-23> 03Grunt 07forest * rcb8e68460c21 10/crawl-ref/source/ (10 files in 2 dirs): Allow Forest shifting outside player LOS; update monster set; tweak end vaults.
12:26:35 <CIA-23> 03Grunt 07forest * r3778f65cfbab 10/crawl-ref/source/ (8 files in 2 dirs): New Forest monsters: dryads and leshies.
12:26:39 <CIA-23> 03Grunt 07forest * r54abbccb84bc 10/crawl-ref/source/ (12 files in 3 dirs): Enchanted Forest base work.
12:26:57 <Cheibriados> New branch created: forest (5 commits)
12:30:38 <dpeg> wow, grunt, wow
12:30:46 <dpeg> "look, here's a new branch"
12:30:58 <Grunt> dpeg, I started working on that a while ago. :)
12:31:29 <Grunt> This way it's easier for those people following the work to keep up to speed, and it means rebasing it is less of a hassle.
12:31:58 <|amethyst> rebasing a published branch is a little bit of a hassle
12:32:21 <CIA-23> 03Grunt 07forest * r8e68875e313a 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-util.cc: Remove a stray + that somehow ended up in mon-util.cc.
12:32:29 <Grunt> Perhaps I should say that keeping it up to date with trunk is less of a hassle.
12:33:14 <dpeg> Grunt: did you pick up from kilobyte? He did some work on forest.
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12:35:20 <Grunt> I do remember discussing a few things with him, but I can't remember if I've seen any of the work that he's done (unless there are traces of it present in trunk already).
12:35:53 <Grunt> The forest level generator is partly based on some of his ideas, after all.
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12:36:19 <HangedMan> shouldn't that branch remove spriggan air mage lightning bolt
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12:39:01 <dpeg> Grunt: what's Forest's final destination supposed to be?
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12:40:47 <Grunt> Well, from the last round of discussion I remember about this, it's a late-D branch with loot (and no rune) at the end, though there's been speculation since then about moving it elsewhere and/or runing it (if room can be made for said rune).
12:41:02 <Grunt> Or did you mean something else by "destination"?
12:41:37 <Zannick> woo new dev!
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12:46:33 <dpeg> Grunt: no, that's what I meant. So no branch swapping for Forest?
12:46:44 <dpeg> It could compete with Vaults...
12:47:18 <Grunt> That could be an interesting idea; I'd have to see what Vaults will end up looking like in the future.
12:52:31 <dpeg> Grunt: the main concern is that adding branches gives more xp, more loot and makes the game longer. That's why all new branches so far have gone into rotation, and there has been lots of cutting.
12:53:19 <Zannick> there could be a crossover branch with forests and vaults
12:53:34 <Zannick> theme it as an earthquake occurred and vaults became overrun with forest
12:53:38 <Zannick> call it "Faults"
12:53:42 * Zannick ducks
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13:00:55 <dpeg> Grunt: it'd might be more thematic to have Lair-Forest rotation but (a) your monster set may be too hard for that and (b) there is lots of randomisation in Lair, would be good to have that elsewhere too.
13:09:03 <BlastHardcheese> forest of zot
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13:12:27 <GreatOrbOfEyes> it has some overlap with elf! (though it'd be weird to know there is no forest in late-d or whatever because orc is empty)
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13:13:22 <ChrisOelmueller> easy solution, don't put elf in orc
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13:24:49 <dpeg> I just had a mimic... it looked like a portal (Ashenzari) but was a "floor mimic".
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13:26:06 <Zannick> weird
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13:27:43 <BlastHardcheese> dungeon mimic
13:28:37 <evilmike> if that's the bug I'm thinking of... I think what happened is a feature mimic got a portal vault entry vault, and that vault turned the mimic into floor
13:29:02 <ChrisOelmueller> pick up $item, cast fulsome, press D => drops the new potion and $item
13:29:10 <ChrisOelmueller> is this intended?
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14:01:28 <dpeg> |amethyst: added some lines... if they're okay, I can make more.
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14:42:42 <|amethyst> dpeg:   nice :)
14:42:52 <|amethyst> dpeg:  please continue :)
14:43:36 <|amethyst> dpeg:  one thing I was considering was using a reversed version of one of the Yred messages for Makhleb, but that might be too plain
14:43:42 <|amethyst> the Yred message:  @The_monster@ says @to_foe@, "First you will die, then you will suffer."
14:43:57 <|amethyst> for Makhleb:  @The_monster@ says @to_foe@, "First you will suffer, then you will die."
14:44:41 <dpeg> |amethyst: no, that's awesome synergy, seriously.
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14:47:14 <dpeg> |amethyst: also, I am not a native speaker. I rely on you taking care of that =)
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14:53:14 <dpeg> |amethyst: ideally, ghost speech would take the ghost's and the player's gods into account. :)
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15:04:15 <dpeg> |amethyst: made some more. Is there a god missing?
15:04:29 <HangedMan> ??gods list
15:04:29 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled gods_list in my learndb.
15:04:32 <HangedMan> ??god list
15:04:33 <Henzell> gods[2/2]: Here's a list anyway: Ashenzari, Beogh, Cheibriados, Elyvilon, Fedhas, Jiyva, Kikubaaqudgha, Lugonu, Makhleb, Nemelex Xobeh, Okawaru, Sif Muna, Trog, Vehumet, Xom, Yredelemnul, Zin, the Shining One.
15:04:46 <HangedMan> nemelex
15:05:29 <HangedMan> xom
15:06:01 <HangedMan> the rest are covered
15:06:10 <Grunt> The cards don't hold a good future for you.
15:06:32 <Grunt> I will deal out your death!
15:08:14 <dpeg> Grunt: shall I add those?
15:08:47 <Grunt> If you like them. :)
15:08:51 <dpeg> sure!#
15:09:22 <dpeg> The spider god will most probably get initial I, should she get implemented.
15:09:51 <HangedMan> pff, we should continue the alphabet first
15:11:11 <dpeg> G is reserved for the gold god.
15:11:27 <HangedMan> D is missing, though
15:11:31 <dpeg> I've never seen a proposal with D.
15:11:41 <BlastHardcheese> dwarf god
15:12:05 <HangedMan> what, taking the proposal for beogh to convert any other race into an orc, but for dwarves
15:12:20 <BlastHardcheese> mountain dwarves shall rise again
15:12:54 <dpeg> "Dorfudl turns you into a Mountain Dwarf. You feel proud. You realise that your species is gone. You wave and die."
15:13:18 <ChrisOelmueller> needs beards
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15:13:38 <dpeg> "Dorfudl gives you a plastic beard at * piety to cover your facial weakness."
15:14:29 <ChrisOelmueller> would a spider god lend towards the african idea of a spider deity (applied to crawl, probably with focus on transmutations)? e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anansi
15:14:31 <dpeg> before DCSS, the god names have a strong emphasis for late letters: EKMNOSTVXYZ1
15:14:57 <dpeg> ChrisOelmueller: no idea, let me check. Nicolas dug up some cool Mesoamerican spider god stuff.
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15:18:02 <dpeg> ChrisOelmueller: not really...
15:18:26 <ChrisOelmueller> dpeg: iktomi, then?
15:19:14 <dpeg> you'll see... it involves mating!
15:19:36 <ChrisOelmueller> i'll see. :)
15:19:41 <dpeg> "You pray at the altar of the spider god. Are you an adult? (y/n)
15:19:59 <ChrisOelmueller> (y/N)
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15:29:50 <|amethyst> elliott made an interesting find in the save layout for 'you':
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15:30:08 <|amethyst> marshallByte(th, you.hit_points_regeneration);
15:30:08 <|amethyst> marshallByte(th, you.magic_points_regeneration);
15:30:08 <|amethyst> marshallShort(th, you.hit_points_regeneration * 100);
15:30:38 <|amethyst> it apparently has been there since pre-Stone Soup
15:30:57 <dpeg> |amethyst: finished with god lines now :)
15:31:11 <dpeg> why is the third one a short?
15:31:25 <|amethyst> why is it multiplied by 100?
15:31:33 <|amethyst> and then divided when unmarshalling
15:31:44 <|amethyst> why is it there twice in the first place?
15:31:55 <dpeg> hm, gotta call Linley
15:33:31 <|amethyst> elliott says it goes back to 1.1
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16:25:59 <Cheibriados> Grand Grimoire description messed up (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5909) by ldierk
16:33:37 <CIA-23> 03Grunt * r15def22fcd31 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/descript/items.txt: Remove duplicate warnings from high-level book descriptions.
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16:42:31 <Cheibriados> rotting hulk flesh is not shown in red colour for Hill Orcs (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5910) by ldierk
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16:44:38 <alefury> |amethyst and Grunt: an information leak with the new bouncing tracer was recently fixed. i don't know if fixing this one works the same way, but it might: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5138
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16:45:33 <Grunt> Hm, I'd have to look into how |amethyst fixed it, but if it's how I think it was, that probably also fixes that bug.
16:45:52 <alefury> i wasnt sure who did the fix, so i just pinged both of you :P
16:46:48 <|amethyst> it does not
16:47:26 <|amethyst> I haven't looked into the cloud targetter much at all... and it's kind of tricky... should you assume unknown squares are walls?  floor?
16:47:41 <|amethyst> Re the zotdef problem... what *should* Shadow Creatures give you
16:47:57 <alefury> oklobs :P
16:48:27 <alefury> probably something random from a list that is appropriate for the spell level and short duration would be best
16:49:01 <alefury> could special-case it to use D:20 or something in zotdef?
16:49:20 <|amethyst> D:20 seems a bit deep
16:49:28 <|amethyst> hm
16:49:35 <alefury> the monsters last for 20 turns or something, the duration is really short
16:49:45 <dtsund> D:x, where x is the character level
16:50:00 <|amethyst> hm... that sounds feasible
16:50:11 <|amethyst> sprint too probably?
16:50:23 <alefury> sounds reasonable
16:50:24 <kilobyte> I'd go with the current ZotDef wave
16:50:31 <kilobyte> it has a well-defined list of monsters
16:50:34 <Grunt> I like kilobyte's idea.
16:50:43 <|amethyst> yeah, even better
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16:50:56 <kilobyte> doesn't solve Sprint, though
16:50:57 <alefury> one problem with it is that it is exactly what shadow creatures does, and its a bit of a problematic effect
16:51:05 <alefury> in that it scales with your opposition
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16:51:25 <kilobyte> like, say, in normal games in Zot?
16:51:27 <alefury> it would be the best way of preserving the effect of shadow creatures of course
16:51:37 <dtsund> alefury: That was *hilarious* when I implemented hardmode for Light, because it initially took the hardmode monsters spawns when playing in same
16:52:00 <kilobyte> 4 orbs of fire, a couple dragons, an electric golem and some draconians...
16:52:30 <alefury> dtsund: yeah, effects like this are generally problematic. in Diablo 2 for example you could adjust the difficulty of the game by using a command that increased the number of players the monster stats were scaled for. this included your own summons.
16:53:00 <dtsund> kilobyte: Nah, I haven't added those to D just yet.  Probably when I come up with the new Zot hardmode monsters.
16:53:26 <alefury> i think kilobyte is talking about SC in zot
16:53:29 <dtsund> Oh.
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16:53:58 <alefury> i think you cant get that from one cast, though
16:54:30 <kilobyte> 5 mana per cast, can cast many times even unskilled
16:54:59 <dtsund> An actual potentially serious problem with SC is scummability
16:55:08 <alefury> yes, it is a bit silly. thats why i didnt suggest using the current zotdef wave.
16:55:33 <dtsund> Cast a few times on Zot:4, wait for them to go away if you don't like what you got and cast again before dragging to the next floor
16:55:47 <alefury> the short duration helps with that
16:56:11 <alefury> i think it used to be longer
16:56:20 <dtsund> It did.
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16:57:07 <|amethyst> using the same monster set as the current wave seems a bit.. tricky
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16:59:32 <kilobyte> Sprint can explicitely define the random monster list
16:59:42 <kilobyte> like it's the case for most portal vaults
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17:01:05 <alefury> basing it on xl might be better, but defining a monster list for sprint would be the easiest way to fix shadow creatures
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17:03:51 <petete> hi
17:03:55 <kilobyte> at least, it's nowhere close to Summon Horrible Things as brokenness goes
17:03:57 <Grunt> Hi petete.
17:04:04 <kilobyte> multiple tentacled monstrosities...
17:04:11 <ChrisOelmueller> i find it more worrying that shadow creatures still has no spell power, honestly
17:04:16 <petete> are the sprites GPL'ed?
17:04:28 <petete> look at this: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.seramygames.dungeonascendancepaid&feature=also_installed
17:04:42 <|amethyst> petete:  most of them are public-domain but I don't think there's a explicit list
17:04:44 <HangedMan> speaking about zotdef, the way it can place you by the stairs but generate monsters randomly can kill the player before they even "start"
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17:05:01 <|amethyst> petete:  http://rltiles.sourceforge.net/
17:05:06 <ontoclasm> some of crawl's tiles are from a public source called rltiles
17:05:28 <petete> oh, i see
17:05:32 <petete> nvm then
17:05:36 <HangedMan> also ghosts are acceptable now?
17:05:46 <alefury> kilobyte: have you tried summon dragon?
17:05:51 <ChrisOelmueller> Thanks to the crawl-tiles project (http://code.google.com/p/crawl-tiles/) for the CC Zero tiles used in this game. You guys make these kind of games possible. If you like roguelikes, check out Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup on PC!
17:05:54 <HangedMan> possibly because it's no longer on d:1
17:05:54 <ChrisOelmueller> it's even mentioned there
17:06:13 <due> galehar: you pinged?
17:06:44 <galehar> I did, but I managed
17:06:48 <due> ahh
17:06:53 <due> okay
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17:06:55 <galehar> was looking for gitorious admin
17:06:59 <due> right
17:07:03 <due> did you manage to add voice in here?
17:07:07 <galehar> kilobte gave me right
17:07:13 <galehar> Napkin did
17:07:18 <galehar> you can too?
17:07:54 <galehar> that's because we have a new dev in team btw (in case you missed it)
17:07:58 <Grunt> Hi!
17:07:58 <Grunt> :)
17:08:25 <ChrisOelmueller> petete: i wonder, did you have any reason to not trust the paragraph i pasted above?
17:08:38 -!- Aryth has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/]
17:09:26 <petete> i skipped reading the description, haha o_O
17:09:55 <dpeg> due: Hi!
17:10:42 <ChrisOelmueller> right.
17:10:50 <HangedMan> between the early chances for draconian skeletons and the random placement zotdef is pretty much even more unplayable then it ever was
17:10:57 <ChrisOelmueller> i recommend doing that, then, instead of just assuming something has to be wrong
17:11:02 <HangedMan> boo
17:11:34 <ChrisOelmueller> this is lawyer thinking and i don't like what we become if we follow that path
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17:14:03 <HangedMan> !lg . zotdef -tv
17:14:04 <Sequell> 15. HangedMan, XL1 TeSu, T:8 requested for FooTV.
17:14:28 <HangedMan> (I'll move from soft-reporting to mantis reporting when I actually get a game going)
17:16:20 -!- scummos has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
17:18:30 <dtsund> petete: I bloody well hope the tiles are free to use, otherwise I'll need to scrap my own tiles builds
17:20:02 <alefury> rltiles is, and most people who submit tiles are fine with it too it seems
17:20:09 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte * r079eee6e6365 10/crawl-ref/source/spl-summoning.cc: In ZotDef, let Shadow Creatures summon stuff appropriate for the current wave.
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17:20:14 <kilobyte> dtsund: at the very least they're GPLed, with all guarantees GPL brings
17:20:15 <alefury> there is no official license i think.
17:20:33 <alefury> other than the license all of crawl falls under i guess
17:20:34 <HangedMan> nice lying comment
17:21:10 <kilobyte> including the freedom for DCSS to take any pieces of your work back
17:21:16 <alefury> what comment?
17:21:23 <HangedMan> It gave D:1 creatures, which were a wee bit useless.
17:21:33 <HangedMan> It gave Zot creatures, which were a wee bit riduclous.
17:21:39 <alefury> oh, haha
17:21:45 <kilobyte> HangedMan: heh, right
17:21:48 <alefury> i guess it used to give D:1 creatures
17:21:56 <alefury> but then it was changed *g*
17:22:01 <kilobyte> forgot about the ZotDef-in-Zot thingy :p
17:22:22 <kilobyte> but hey, it was only Zot:1!
17:22:35 <HangedMan> zot:1, where the small skeletons include draconian skeletons
17:22:39 <HangedMan> as the first boss
17:22:54 <kilobyte> (in Zot, due to quirks of mon-pick, shallower levels get nastier random spawns)
17:23:17 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  looks much cleaner than what I was struggling with, thanks
17:23:17 <HangedMan> even better
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17:23:38 <kilobyte> perhaps Pan should use this code too
17:24:32 <dtsund> Actually, come to that, I thought most of the tiles were Creative Commons
17:24:48 <Wensley> I thought all of the tiles were GPL
17:25:12 <kilobyte> dtsund: there was a tiles relicensing project, some guy asked a number of contributors to relicense as CC0
17:26:01 <kilobyte> the guy went a paranoid way, and dropped tiles there was a slightest hint of doubt about
17:26:21 <kilobyte> since then, no one cared which license a particular tile is under
17:26:59 <ontoclasm> it might be a good idea to specify
17:27:24 <dtsund> Ah, "Angband licensing" then?
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17:31:26 <dpeg> Damn licenses, I that them... symptoms of a sick society. But wouldn't it be natural to ask that all contribution fall under the DCSS license?
17:31:46 <Napkin> didn't we do something like that?
17:32:50 <Wensley> ever since the GPL relicensing, it is implied that all contributions that are shipped with the game are themselves GPL
17:33:22 <Napkin> thank you
17:33:37 <Wensley> I'm not quoting anything, I am just stating how GPL works :P
17:33:53 <dpeg> for every year in existence, the license should also hold an additional year in the past ("familiarity rule")
17:33:59 <Napkin> that's why I said thank you :)
17:34:19 <|amethyst> licence.txt explicitly said:
17:34:21 <|amethyst> says
17:34:25 <|amethyst> Certain pieces come with different licenses, all compatible with the GPL.
17:34:25 <|amethyst> These include:
17:34:26 <|amethyst> ..
17:34:30 <|amethyst> * Public Domain|CC0: most of tiles
17:34:52 <dpeg> So we can assume that all of the tiles are fine to use by all good people.
17:34:59 <|amethyst> and then another bit about how that's not true for all tiles :(
17:35:25 <dtsund> Yeah, I remember that
17:36:12 <Napkin> seriously? someone registered as "tom_cruise"? *sigh*
17:36:17 <dtsund> I gave that bit a good, hard look before forking, and decided I'd just do it and hope nobody complained
17:36:19 <Napkin> g'night!
17:36:27 <Wensley> o/
17:36:52 <Wensley> dtsund: easier to ask forgiveness than permission, and so on
17:36:54 <Wensley> actually
17:37:11 <Wensley> GPL requires the copyright *holder* to levy complaints about infringment
17:37:26 <Wensley> so even if someone *did* infringe on crawl's GPL... who the heck is the copyright holder?
17:37:37 <kilobyte> Wensley: any contributor
17:37:42 <dtsund> The person who made the tile, I'd imagine
17:37:58 <Wensley> dtsund: I'm talking about the codebase in general and kilobyte: okay, that's pretty cool
17:38:07 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte * rdfd7b5621292 10/crawl-ref/licence.txt: Tiles license: s/vast majority/majority/; no new artist said anything about CC0.
17:38:09 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  I'd think the particular contributor(s) who wrote that code
17:38:27 <kilobyte> tiles tend to not be derived work of the rest of the code, so in this case, just that one person, yeah
17:38:32 <ontoclasm> for reference, all my stuff is cc0
17:38:36 <dpeg> Napkin: someone registered as Zin :)
17:38:53 <ChrisOelmueller> ontoclasm: awesome!
17:39:06 <Wensley> all my stuff is wtfpl
17:39:22 <ontoclasm> hell yes, wtfpl
17:40:04 <CIA-23> 03|amethyst * ra8bc3b79fc48 10/crawl-ref/source/itemname.cc: Hydrochloric^WRot-inducing overrides contaminated (#5910).
17:40:17 <Napkin> considering webtiles, agpl wouldn't be such a bad idea eiher ;>
17:40:19 <dpeg> "with tanks for po-land"? I don't think that's a very nice license.
17:40:58 <ontoclasm> wednesday to friday pot luck
17:41:15 <kilobyte> dpeg: where?  Not in the WTFPL, at least.
17:41:39 <Napkin> sorry, gnuagpl
17:41:46 <Napkin> geez
17:41:47 <Napkin> o/
17:42:03 <kilobyte> Napkin: agpl is always a bad idea
17:42:17 <Napkin> disagreed
17:42:28 <Napkin> anyways, g'night now
17:42:50 <kilobyte> Napkin: for example, no one other than you can use monster like Gretell does
17:44:00 <dpeg> Nacht, Napkin!
17:44:10 <kilobyte> bie!
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17:44:51 <Napkin> everybody could take crawl, modify it and make it even more awesome, make it available for play via webtiles and charge people for it, and we couldn't even ask for the code... with gplv2.. with agpl you have that right.
17:46:27 <Napkin> *everybody could take crawl, modify it and make it even more awesome, make it available for play via webtiles and charge people for it, and we couldn't even ask for the code with gplv2. agpl makes it possible to insist to get that modified code.
17:46:39 <Napkin> did that change with gplv3?
17:48:35 <kilobyte> let's start with the inability to take any part of code and use it for something that's not a webpage or something with an ability to send large files
17:49:43 * dpeg points out that this discussion is mostly academic. Roguelikes in general reach out somewhat to the general (paying) public but I am convinced that Crawl stays firmly below the radar.
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17:51:38 <Napkin> that's not true, kilobyte
17:51:41 <kilobyte> dpeg: even the very installation of monster here is in a breach of AGPL.  It's not a problem because Napkin is the copyright holder (and me, greensnark and |amethyst know about this use), and it's not distributed.
17:52:04 <Napkin> that's not true either
17:52:17 <Napkin> "The additional provision requires that the complete source code be made available to any network user of the AGPL-licensed work"
17:52:20 <kilobyte> also, AGPL is toothless: as a pure license, it has no way to restrict use, only distribution
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17:53:09 <dtsund> I'm not sure Crawl is as below the radar as dpeg thinks
17:53:36 <kilobyte> Napkin: does @?? "prominently offer" sending you the source?
17:53:48 <Napkin> why would you want to restrict? i just want code-changes to be available to everyone
17:54:07 <Napkin> that's also not a requirement, kilobyte
17:54:27 <Napkin> you don't have to send the code with every network request
17:54:34 <dpeg> dtsund: if it isn't, I blame you!
17:54:38 <Napkin> you have to make it available: http://git.develz.org/?p=gretell.git;a=summary
17:54:42 <kilobyte> unless a recipient signed a contract with you, they can modify AGPLed code and publicly run it without distribution, losing only the right to... distribute
17:55:25 <kilobyte> Napkin: you need to send the offer, not necessarily with every request, but to every user
17:56:21 <Napkin> well yes, of course you can kill people without going into jail.. you never agreed to the constitution of the state you live in *sigh*
17:57:28 <Napkin> you'd best write your own, kilobyte
17:57:40 <Napkin> i agree and believe in fsf
17:57:49 <dpeg> Will future archeologists try to understand licenses, fail miserably and then conclude: "They were doomed from the start. When 95% of the working population were lawyers, it all went downhill."
17:58:41 <kilobyte> dpeg: yeah, copyright is a crime against humanity
17:58:53 <Cheibriados> Tiles for Slime (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5911) by roctavian
17:59:00 <kilobyte> GPL >>> BSD in its attempt to emulate a world without copyright
17:59:21 <kilobyte> but AGPL is about as bad as GFDL...
18:00:10 <dtsund> dpeg: Anecdotally,
18:00:18 <kilobyte> the latter is a prime example not everything that comes from FSF is good.  If you read GFDL literally, it does disallow locking the door to a room you have your computer in.
18:00:49 <dpeg> dtsund: I am trying my best to alienate the player base, only to have your branch, sneakily targeting the housewives of all the lawyers, make Crawl get a place on Fox TV.
18:00:51 <kilobyte> ("technological measures", a key and lock is 14th century technology, but still technology)
18:01:06 <dtsund> This past weekend I was invited by the MIT Assassin's Guild to observe a NetHack-themed "Society for Interactive Killing" game, with NetHack-based rules
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18:01:18 <dtsund> One of the GMs only ever played Crawl, not NetHack
18:01:35 <dtsund> Managed to sneak in the Ecumenical Temple as a replacement for Delphi.
18:01:42 <kilobyte> or, the GFDL allows attaching an "Ode to Hitler", marked as immutable, and everyone who wants to use your improvements has to copy that ode over for eternity
18:01:42 <dpeg> awesome :)
18:02:04 <kilobyte> dtsund: <3
18:02:04 <dpeg> dtsund: I hope very much (and believe) that Crawl has a good reputation among roguelikers.
18:03:00 -!- ebarrett has quit [Quit: Page closed]
18:03:18 <dtsund> (The high point, as an observer was the Neutral quest; someone picked up an item, read "cockatrice corpse" and turned to stone; the next player over, who was freaking out over that and looking for a cure, picked up the same item.)
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18:04:51 <dtsund> I actually argued after the game that Crawl would've been a better base for the rules, because of things like limited healing and mutations instead of polymorphs
18:05:11 <dpeg> dtsund: did you get support?
18:05:19 -!- eeviac has joined ##crawl-dev
18:05:43 <dtsund> Sort of noncomittally; the other two GMs weren't that familiar with Crawl.
18:07:22 <kilobyte> dtsund: but not Light, as people would need to carry a compass, and go 1.41 times faster in a direction 45° from a meridian
18:07:24 <Dixie> nethack is a lot better-known
18:07:32 <kilobyte> (Light has that LOS bug)
18:07:51 <dtsund> :D
18:08:41 <kilobyte> I like Nethack's polymorphs far more to our mutations
18:08:54 <kilobyte> harder to balance, but funnier
18:08:57 <dtsund> Actually, there were areas where players needed to obey grid movement, with five seconds between moves
18:09:10 <dtsund> The effect of Haste was to allow diagonal movement
18:09:26 <kilobyte> grid bugs :p
18:09:51 <dpeg> Dixie: but it is really unclear for how long.
18:10:30 <dtsund> As was said on the Tavern recently by someone, I'm not really sure it's feasible to really balance NH-style polymorph in a game not designed around NH-style polymorph
18:11:02 <dtsund> But part of the fun of NH, for experienced players, is coming up with new ways to break the game in half, so it's fine there
18:11:03 <Zannick> it might be possible to balance a species around it, but not every one
18:11:13 <kilobyte> well, Nethack doesn't even try to balance it :p
18:11:24 <dpeg> The notions of balance... what kilobyte says.
18:11:51 <dtsund> (Shiren's take on it is pretty interesting, but still not really balanced.)
18:12:03 <kilobyte> there is one downside: you lose the amulet slot
18:12:27 <kilobyte> and also need to scum maxhp again (and lose it if you have to revert to human form)
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18:13:39 <kilobyte> that assumes keeping unchanging, which is not that in fashion these days
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18:14:16 <dtsund> Oh, yeah, I'd rather not have unchanging on; that way, you survive if you hit 0 HP
18:14:20 <dpeg> kilobyte: you keep up with NH fashions?
18:14:35 <kilobyte> no, not at all
18:14:37 <Dixie> nethack changes?
18:14:42 <dtsund> dpeg: Well, it's just never really a good idea.
18:15:02 <dtsund> Early-game, when it'd be really nice to be permanently in the form of some other monster, you probably haven't identified "unchanging.
18:15:17 <dtsund> Late-game, you're usually at your strongest in your native form anyway.
18:15:34 <dtsund> Might be viable under some unusual midgame conditions, though.
18:15:49 <kilobyte> Dixie: it's like new developments in biface technology.  A bit stale news.
18:16:15 <dpeg> Sometime soon, I'll be meeting Jeff Lait. We can gobble for hours about the design shortcomings of Nethack, such a cheap target :)
18:16:18 <Zannick> didn't ais stage a NH coup on april 1 or something?
18:16:28 <dpeg> Zannick: yes, that was good
18:16:53 <kilobyte> dtsund: my personal conduct was to wear/eat unchanging no later than at the Castle
18:17:10 <dtsund> ...can you get intrinsic unchanging?
18:17:18 <Grunt> No.
18:17:31 <dtsund> I'd think anything that could eat the amulet wouldn't be something you'd want to stay permanently as anyway...
18:17:32 <Grunt> If you eat unchanging, you un-change, i.e. revert to natural form.
18:17:33 <kilobyte> (bastards removed that ability after I posted an YAAP :( )
18:18:08 <dtsund> dpeg: Several of those hours could be spent on Gehennom alone
18:18:39 <kilobyte> dtsund: Xorns lose body armour (but not cloaks or weapons), for their great ability
18:18:44 <Grunt> Most NetHack variant developers agree that Gehennom as it stands is terrible.
18:19:05 <dpeg> Grunt: welcome to Crawl. Here's where progress takes place. Onwards to a better world!
18:19:11 <Grunt> The most popular approach has been to remodel it as a series of caverns of various sorts (which is a trend I'm fairly sure I started).
18:19:11 <Grunt> <_<
18:19:21 <dpeg> hehe, sorry :)
18:19:40 <Grunt> NetHack still makes progress... through its variants. >_>
18:19:57 <dpeg> yes, it's good there are alive variants
18:20:15 <dpeg> I always mention those I know when people mention Nethack.
18:20:27 <eeviac> grunt were you invovled with the lethe patch>?
18:20:56 <eeviac> wasn't that the first to replace gehenna with something else?
18:20:57 <Grunt> No.
18:21:07 <Grunt> The Lethe patch predates my knowing what NetHack was.
18:21:20 <dpeg> Hey, Grunt must be young.
18:21:29 <Grunt> 25, if you must know. <_<
18:21:33 <dtsund> I think Grunt's biggest patch is Intelligent Pets
18:21:48 <Grunt> GruntHack spun out of the Intelligent Pet patch.
18:21:51 <eeviac> ah nethack pets
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18:22:08 <dtsund> AceHack/NetHack 4 uses it too
18:22:37 <dpeg> Grunt: but you will admit that the philosophies behind the two games are very much incompatible. I guess it is possible to enjoy (or even, behold, code for) both :)
18:22:42 <eeviac> I remember fondly my fire dog pets who would instantly whip around and scorch me if they went feral
18:22:52 <Grunt> s/fire hog/hell hound/
18:22:57 <Grunt> s/fire hog/fire dog/
18:22:57 <Grunt> <_<
18:22:58 <eeviac> whatever they were called
18:23:13 <dtsund> Grunt: Did you incorporate Ace's bugfixes to the Intelligent Pet Patch?
18:23:26 <eeviac> I only kept them until they would kill the minetown guards for their silver saber/long swords
18:23:29 <Grunt> dtsund: I eventually fixed those bugs on my own without realising that someone else had already fixed them.
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18:39:15 <Thann> Grunt : congrats!
18:39:20 <Grunt> Thanks Thann :)
18:39:44 <Thann> i hope you dont forget about us little people now that your famous
18:40:01 <dpeg> haha
18:40:05 <Grunt> You're hardly one of the little people, Mr. Autopickup Menu. :)
18:40:53 <Thann> lol unfortunately i dont know any emoji for blushing
18:45:35 <dpeg> Thann: if it makes you feel better: Haran (third developer for DCSS) always wanted to write the autopickup menu, but never managed to. That should make you a celebrity. If you need tips how to fend off the hordes of groupies, you can ask me.
18:46:01 <alefury> dpeg: except your groupies want to kill you for what you did to the poor dwarves!
18:47:02 <Thann> don't worry, my neck-beard is more than effective at dispatching mobs
18:47:11 <dpeg> alefury: well, I cannot recommend dwarven groupies anyway
18:47:21 <Thann> haahha
18:47:33 <alefury> so racist.
18:47:39 <alefury> you should be ashamed.
18:47:47 <Thann> its not racist if it's true =/
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18:47:59 * dpeg is proud that those lousy mountain dwarves got what they deserved.
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18:48:22 <alefury> i still like to look at that series of pictures on the tavern, so funny
18:48:38 <alefury> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?p=36941#p36941
18:50:00 <Thann> that is pretty amazing
18:50:21 <alefury> possibly even more funny than mountain bats
18:50:59 <alefury> (these make fun both of mountain dwarf removal and the megabat debacle, which makes them double awesome)
18:52:15 <dpeg> absolutely
18:53:02 <dpeg> The guy who bugged me today about MD finally resorted to "three elves, one dwarf, how could you". He gave in when I said that there used to be five elves.
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18:53:38 <alefury> ??badwordpress
18:53:38 <Henzell> badwordpress[1/1]: The amount of vanilla races is already very low, unless you count elves.
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18:58:47 <kilobyte> wait, didn't Grimm use the halfling tile for devs in that image?
18:59:17 <kilobyte> now that's an unforgivenable insult...  got to prepare a vault that'll kill him dead
18:59:48 <Cheibriados> ZotDef: Zot placement, random monster placement results in extreme unbalancing (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5912) by Claws
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18:59:54 <dpeg> I find the halfling quite good-looking, if I may say so.
19:00:42 -!- pointsofdata has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
19:02:53 <kilobyte> now you're lying.  It's a poor modification of one of human tiles, done by someone who can't draw his way out of a wet paper bag.
19:03:41 <alefury> it has nice hair
19:03:49 <BlastHardcheese> elf power
19:04:00 <alefury> good night
19:04:13 -!- alefury has quit []
19:04:35 -!- Silenzio has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
19:07:26 <dpeg> kilobyte: I can't draw my way out of a brown paper bag.
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19:08:13 <ontoclasm> you need a sharper crayon
19:08:50 -!- Wahaha_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
19:10:14 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte * r094799120105 10/crawl-ref/source/ (syscalls.cc syscalls.h): Implement mkstemp() for Windows.
19:11:42 <kilobyte> ontoclasm: speaking of tiles, what about one for Ariadne?  Nicolae submitted one, but it's one of old Kirke tiles combined with a part of my (ie, abysmal) plain spider tile, with a result that's, well, not exactly the best.
19:12:02 <ontoclasm> hm
19:12:07 <ontoclasm> i could try that
19:12:19 <ontoclasm> when is 0.11 coming out, by the way
19:12:47 <HangedMan> so you kill ariadne to get a lab auto-solver?
19:13:29 <ontoclasm> i'm hoping to do all the statues, and the vertical gate tiles HangedMan asked for
19:13:52 <ontoclasm> of course that means at some point i have to draw a felid
19:14:05 <kilobyte> er, Arachne!
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19:15:45 <kilobyte> a possible inspiration: http://angband.pl/tmp/marsspider.png (this one lacks most of legs)
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19:16:40 <ontoclasm> hah, it's anna anthropy
19:16:42 <HangedMan> mmm, mistress
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19:17:46 <kilobyte> guess what game I played shortly before coming up with the idea for Arachne :p
19:17:58 -!- blackflare has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
19:18:06 <ontoclasm> hah, awesome
19:18:24 <ontoclasm> does arachne have speech yet?
19:18:25 -!- Pingas has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
19:19:16 <kilobyte> minimal and bad
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19:25:58 <Grunt> ...should we disable ghost spawning in ZD?
19:27:26 <HangedMan> minimum wave depth at minimum
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19:27:44 <kilobyte> either made dynamic, or not at all
19:28:08 <CIA-23> 03dpeg * rd2ad5edba5b7 10/crawl-ref/source/ (contrib/sqlite dat/database/rand_wpn.txt): Randart weapon names.
19:29:40 <kilobyte> dpeg: removing "${weapon} of Holocaust" is good, but why did you add one of the Poles?  How dare you to insult the Poles!
19:29:46 <kilobyte> jk :p
19:29:51 <dpeg> oh my god
19:30:01 <dpeg> I was in a geographical mood :)
19:30:17 <Grunt> Dynamic ghost loading for ZD sounds like it could be tricky to implement.
19:30:41 <dpeg> Only one people would call themselves after (a) north pole, (b) tadpole, (c) electric pole.
19:30:45 <HangedMan> with all of this testing I would be happy if I never see a zotdef ghost again
19:31:31 <kilobyte> beh, there's a country named after a fowl, and another after an US state
19:31:39 <dpeg> fowl?
19:31:50 <kilobyte> Turkey, Georgia
19:31:54 <dpeg> hey!
19:32:28 <dpeg> I am off for three weeks, not that I'm a regular these days. See you later!
19:32:40 <Thann> c ya!
19:32:43 <kilobyte> bye!
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19:34:40 <Grunt> Well, unless there are strong objections, I am going to disable ghost spawning in ZD for now.
19:35:02 <HangedMan> yessssssssss
19:35:04 <Grunt> ...if and when we get the particularls of a dynamic spawning technique worked out, we can look back into it.
19:36:02 <CIA-23> 03kilobyte * rec46f0145cdd 10/crawl-ref/source/contrib/sqlite: Revert accidential revertion of some contrib/sqlite changes.
19:36:32 <kilobyte> by the way, what's the noun for "revert"?
19:36:40 <dtsund> Reversion?
19:36:47 <Grunt> Reversion, I'd think.
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19:38:58 <Thann> then it is agreed!
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19:40:28 <CIA-23> 03Grunt * rda90b54d422e 10/crawl-ref/source/files.cc: Disable ghost spawning in ZotDef.
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19:50:42 <dtsund> kilobyte: Since you seemed to think Illude was a decent idea, would you mind if I bounced an idea or two off you?  I'd like the spell to be good enough for L8-9, since one of my primary motivations behind it was the relative lack of good high-end Sorcery/Hexes stuff.
19:52:32 <Gretell> HalloeS (L13 HOPr) ASSERT(smc) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1403 failed. (Lair:8)
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20:18:15 <eeviac> Does staff acquirement respect Trog now? Wizmode testing says yes, but I can't find the specific code in acquire.cc
20:18:37 <eeviac> I'm trying to figure out which acquirements respect which gods, and why
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20:22:55 <|amethyst> it does not respect Trog, but does look at skills
20:23:55 <|amethyst> hm
20:24:01 <|amethyst> actually, now I'm not so sure
20:24:11 <eeviac> are you sure? having magic at 27 and evo at 0, I got 100% rods under trog
20:24:55 <evilmike> I wouldnt be surprised if it never gives you greyed out items
20:25:03 <evilmike> and enhancer staffs are greyed out for trog even though they are usable
20:25:16 <eeviac> can we grey out invis wands for tso worshippers then
20:25:27 <eeviac> that's what put me on this quest
20:25:41 <evilmike> that sounds like a decent idea regardless of how acquirement works, yes
20:25:59 <|amethyst> aha, you're right
20:26:14 <eeviac> what's the general goal of acquirement anyways
20:26:16 <|amethyst> it's because they're marked as useless for Troglodytes
20:26:24 <eeviac> nothing useless, respecting religion?
20:26:28 <ChrisOelmueller> ??staff acquirement
20:26:29 <Henzell> staff acquirement[1/4]: Gives a rod or a staff, weighted towards something new and useful given your skills, but nothing is guaranteed.
20:26:47 <ChrisOelmueller> so there is some guaranteed aspect?
20:26:51 <|amethyst> I guess so :)
20:27:03 <ChrisOelmueller> badlearndb
20:27:03 <evilmike> eeviac: nothing useless is the idea of it. acquirement guarantees a usable item, and it tries to roll for a good one. but the rng can still screw you over
20:27:19 <eeviac> well yeah, you can get terrible randarts
20:27:33 <eeviac> but I'm talking more like enhancer staves for trog and invis for tso
20:27:51 <eeviac> straight up can't be used without ditching your god
20:27:55 <evilmike> it might be possible to get a wand of invis with tso (i'd consider that a bug)
20:28:11 <eeviac> I got one a few days ago, and just now in wizmode tests
20:28:29 <evilmike> but like, you'll never get a weapon too big for you to use, or an armour you can't wear
20:29:14 <|amethyst> !learn add staff_acquirement[1] s/, but.*/.  The only guarantee is that you won't get a useless item: this includes staves for Trog worshippers and staves of energy for mummies./
20:29:14 <Henzell> staff acquirement[1/5]: s/, but.*/.  The only guarantee is that you won't get a useless item: this includes staves for Trog worshippers and staves of energy for mummies./
20:29:21 <|amethyst> doh
20:29:27 <eeviac> I remember a tavern thread a few months back about getting evil weapons under good gods too
20:29:29 <|amethyst> !learn del staff_acquirement[1]
20:29:30 <Henzell> Deleted staff acquirement[1/5]: s/, but.*/.  The only guarantee is that you won't get a useless item: this includes staves for Trog worshippers and staves of energy for mummies./
20:29:30 <BlastHardcheese> you dun goofed
20:29:34 <|amethyst> !learn edit staff_acquirement[1] s/, but.*/.  The only guarantee is that you won't get a useless item: this includes staves for Trog worshippers and staves of energy for mummies./
20:29:35 <Henzell> staff acquirement[1/4]: Gives a rod or a staff, weighted towards something new and useful given your skills.  The only guarantee is that you won't get a useless item: this includes staves for Trog worshippers and staves of energy for mummies.
20:29:54 <eeviac> IMO acquirement should either respect religion, or it shouldn't. Right now it seems selective about this.
20:30:01 <evilmike> there should be a learndb undo command
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20:30:32 <evilmike> sometimes people make that mistake, but when they try to fix it you'll get an entry that ends in \//\\\ or something looking like that
20:31:33 <|amethyst> hm
20:31:45 <|amethyst> potions of invis are marked as useless for TSOites
20:31:58 <|amethyst> I guess the difference is you can shoot a wand at an ally
20:32:14 <|amethyst> (not useful on the angels obviously, but you could have others)
20:32:14 <evilmike> true, you can do that. it's questionable though
20:32:22 <evilmike> and your own halo will screw it up
20:32:43 <|amethyst> /haste for Cheibriadites is more clear-cut
20:32:53 <|amethyst> but still isn't considered useless
20:33:14 <eeviac> but how is getting evil weapons under good gods any different from invis under tso or enhancers under trog?
20:33:16 <evilmike> well, in that case you can always do the "abandon chei and haste yourself" thing :P
20:33:20 <evilmike> I bet you can't acquire a rod of demonology as a TSO follower, right? you can use those with TSO, they are just almost-useless
20:33:36 <eeviac> I'll try to get one right now
20:33:46 <|amethyst> evilmike:  you probably can
20:33:59 <|amethyst> evilmike:   there are no checks for specific rods afaict
20:34:07 <evilmike> oh, that's interesting
20:34:13 <|amethyst> is_useless_item in itemname.cc
20:34:21 <evilmike> I thought "red" items fell under that, I guess not though
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20:35:24 <eeviac> yeah just got demonology under tso
20:35:51 <eeviac> but it's partially usable like you said
20:36:14 <|amethyst> yeah, the only guarantee for non-divine acquirement seems to be "you won't get something that's greyed-out"
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20:36:43 <|amethyst> hm... how to do testing with player ghosts?
20:36:56 <|amethyst> &Mplayer ghost   isn't useful to me, because they have no god and no skills
20:36:58 <eeviac> if you wanted to start excluding red items from acquirement, it would not be much of a loss if TSO'ites couldn't get venom or demon rods
20:37:47 <|amethyst> note that red means two different things
20:37:59 <|amethyst> you won't get bad_item jewellery because those are also considered useless
20:38:15 <|amethyst> but you could get evil_item stuff all day long
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20:56:22 <HangedMan> dtsund: while the illusions sound like an effect I've wanted for forever I'm not sure how it'd be over-powered in said implementation, considering how weak distraction stabs are
20:58:30 <dtsund> That's actually related to one of my ideas: an enemy who melees one of the illusions gets thrown off-balance and ripe for better-than-distraction stabbing
20:59:23 <dtsund> (Another idea I'm pondering is for Illude to have it grant a temporary status in which you spawn illusions around you each turn for a short while.)
20:59:49 <HangedMan> ring of illusions
20:59:51 <eeviac> RoI
21:00:01 <eeviac> and then you get firestormed
21:00:24 <eeviac> or even fireballed
21:00:32 <HangedMan> or hellfired
21:00:43 <dtsund> I'm fine with AoE countering it
21:00:56 <HangedMan> it is already a very interesting anti-bolt tactic
21:01:02 <eeviac> but lvl 9 spells should be silly strong
21:01:33 <HangedMan> I already hear of monqy's complaints about how long it'll take to test a level 9 sorcery spell
21:02:17 <dtsund> That is a good point, and I should maybe lower it to facilitate testing.
21:03:12 <evilmike> could temporarily raise one of the races apts to 5 :p
21:03:35 <evilmike> I dunno how high level magic works in light but that will get more people casting it, probably
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21:07:27 <eeviac> evilmike should I report the invis wand tso acquirement thing
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21:10:15 <evilmike> i would say yes, the item is pretty useless with tso
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21:15:02 <Grunt> I could use some feedback on what to do with ZotDef undead spawns (0005912).
21:16:47 <HangedMan> I'd lean towards 1
21:17:15 <Grunt> I think 1 is the best short term solution, at least, though I'd love to move in the direction of 3 eventually.
21:17:25 <Grunt> (I'm having fun with an implementation of 2 right now >_>)
21:17:58 <HangedMan> are you getting to see wonderful hd messiness like how hd: 15 includes sirens and catoblepae amongst giants
21:18:30 <Grunt> I had a felid skeleton spawn in the first 300 turns.
21:18:35 <Grunt> How often do you see those in Crawl? :D
21:18:55 <HangedMan> fene can do it almost immeadiately!
21:19:03 <Grunt> ...outside of that. >:P
21:19:11 <HangedMan> didn't crypt used to have demigod skeletons and gnome skeletons and such
21:19:23 <Grunt> Probably.
21:19:33 <eeviac> it does have demigod skeletons
21:19:48 <eeviac> I don't think I've ever seen gnome skeletons
21:19:52 <HangedMan> oh was thinking of a different hd
21:19:58 <eeviac> fr demigod branch
21:20:16 <HangedMan> or not
21:22:41 <HangedMan> oh, gnom zombies were just blocked by z_nozombie, bah
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21:27:06 <Cheibriados> Acquiring invis wand under TSO (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5913) by eeviac
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21:38:44 <CIA-23> 03Grunt * r0bba7d7700f2 10/crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc: Have undead base monster selection assume player is in Dungeon in ZotDef.
21:39:00 <HangedMan> hooray, only one commit left to make zotdef playable
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21:43:28 <|amethyst> btw, did it really take two months for anyone to notice?
21:44:10 <monqy> believable; nobody plays zotdef
21:44:34 <|amethyst> I'm sure I'm not helping by introducing bugs to it :)
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21:45:16 <evilmike> zotdef is a fun distraction sometimes, but no one takes it seriously :P
21:45:38 <evilmike> I made a vault for zot themed on zotdef (kilobyte's idea), I think a grand total of 3 people have gotten the joke
21:46:40 <Grunt> ...that's hilarious.
21:46:47 <Grunt> Maybe nobody's really seen the vault in action?
21:47:27 <Grunt> Speaking of vaults, something I need to do...
21:48:07 <evilmike> speaking of sub games, I was bored and spent the last couple hours throwing together a bizarre sprint map. Will likely be playable tomorrow
21:48:17 <HangedMan> what's it about?
21:48:26 <Grunt> ...and speaking of Sprint, I need to work more on The Dragon's Lair :)
21:48:27 <evilmike> dispite being hastily written and mostly lua, it doesn't seem to be buggy at all (which is nice, because debugging vault lua is annoying)
21:48:31 <HangedMan> mnoleg sprint augh
21:49:22 <evilmike> it's an arena of sorts. each round, monsters spawn on the stairs. kill them all for a reward, otherwise wait until the time runs out and they despawn
21:49:25 <dtsund> <evilmike> because debugging vault lua is annoying
21:49:30 <dtsund> Gog, yes.
21:49:57 <evilmike> I love it when it gives you an error about something in the global prelude, and gives you a completely meaningless line number
21:50:22 <dtsund> Did you know that all the functions are global across all files
21:50:40 <Dixie> that sounds like a nightmare
21:50:49 <dtsund> So if you name a new function, you'd better pray that none of the functions in any of the other des files are named the same thing
21:50:57 <dtsund> That was a *fun* discovery.
21:50:58 <evilmike> yeah
21:51:10 <Grunt> dtsund, what were you doing at the time to discover that?
21:51:15 <HangedMan> hmm
21:51:15 <evilmike> I try to make sure new vaults never use boring sounding function names
21:51:25 <evilmike> good practice is to name them stuff like "vault_name_whatever()"
21:51:26 <Grunt> I tend to name my vault functions after the vault.
21:51:31 <HangedMan> I may take some lua from that arena alongside volcano_overflow for something
21:51:34 <Grunt> ...which, as evilmike says, is good practice.
21:51:53 <dtsund> Grunt: It was related to the rather delicate setups involved in difficulty-switching
21:51:55 <evilmike> HangedMan: probably a bad idea. what I've written here works, but it's really messy
21:52:03 <CIA-23> 03Grunt * r21a67114c697 10/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/zot.des: Don't generate traps on chokepoints in orb_chamber_grunt_hallway.
21:52:33 <HangedMan> s|take|stare at forever|
21:54:33 <dtsund> You increase the difficulty by opening a "Pandoora" door (and I will not apologize for that name).  There's one early on, and a second in Hive if you opened the first; the functions involved in their opening are nearly identical, and originally had the same name.  Only noticed there was a problem because I tied milestones to them, and was getting the second milestone on opening the first door.
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22:53:28 <Cheibriados> Octopodes and Confuse Touch (https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=5914) by codrus
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23:41:12 <Gretell> atrodo (L21 OpFE) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,17) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef))
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23:42:28 <Grunt> todo: fix that message <_<
23:42:51 <Grunt> (as in, fix that it consistently says "it")
23:45:03 <Gretell> atrodo (L21 OpFE) ERROR in 'mon-movetarget.cc' at line 109: ZotDef: monster it failed to pathfind to (39,17) (the Orb) (D:1 (ZotDef))
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