00:00:05 <Grunt> I can, given some keyboard capable of issuing it (which I have).
00:00:17 <Grunt> ...F10 is webtiles-specific though, AFAIK.
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00:01:17 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2749-g2ed80a3 (34)
00:02:43 <SwissStopwatch> mm.
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00:03:24 <SwissStopwatch> whenever I finally decide to be sane, cave, and get a smartphone I guess maybe I should keep some sort of keyboard functionality in mind
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00:06:32 <Ruffell> Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.13-a0-2749-g2ed80a3 (34)
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03:33:55 <Gretell> nht (L27 GrMo) ASSERT(m) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1913 failed. (Tomb:3)
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03:50:18 <Gretell> nht (L27 GrMo) ASSERT(m) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1913 failed. (Tomb:3)
03:50:21 <Gretell> nht (L27 GrMo) ASSERT(m) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 1913 failed. (Tomb:3)
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03:55:48 <Cheibriados> crash on descent to Tomb:3 while misled <https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7501> by nht
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08:17:45 <dpeg> phew, official rune lock suggestion mailed out
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08:22:29 <alefury> oh wow
08:22:30 <Henzell> alefury: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
08:22:34 <alefury> !messages
08:22:35 <Henzell> (1/1) dpeg said (12h 56m 6s ago): With a proper exponential scale you'd get 0, 1.8, 3.2, 5.8, 10, 19, 34, 61, 110, 200
08:22:47 <dpeg> alefury: do you read c-r-d?
08:22:51 <alefury> yes
08:23:03 <alefury> mhh, the exponential scale depends on where you start it
08:23:24 <dpeg> alefury: yes, should not start at 1, that's what I figured but while I was computing, you left :)
08:24:12 <alefury> the current one isnt even that horrible i guess, it just starts at 10, because who ever has less than 10 power?
08:24:24 <alefury> and that leads to the weird 10 5 10 steps
08:24:38 <dpeg> alefury: yes, might be best to fix it by hand
08:24:53 * dpeg shudders at non-monotocity of the first derivative
08:25:18 <alefury> its monotone if you ignore the 0 power thingy
08:25:39 <dpeg> okay, second derivative =)
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08:58:53 <alefury> trying the rune lock for a while sounds cool
08:59:54 <alefury> reactions to the rune lock 0.11 tourney banner were generally positive too, the only complaint iirc was that after all that excitement (and the extra exp) the rest of the game felt a little boring
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10:12:44 <dpeg> alefury: cool. Train now, back later
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12:05:21 <SamB> so, is there any good reason berserkers don't get the option to start with falchion?
12:05:48 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2749-g2ed80a3 (34)
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12:56:03 <kilobyte> SamB: "blah blah falchions are too good", even if hand axe is +cleave -1dam and has near-guaranteed upgrade to 11damn on your second or third bunch of orcs, and maces have just a notch worse delay -- again, with far more opportunities for upgrade early on
12:56:37 <SamB> kilobyte: so you're saying "no"?
12:57:12 <kilobyte> s/damn/dam/, damn
12:57:14 <kilobyte> yeah
13:00:10 <SamB> so should I just remove this if then?
13:01:12 <kilobyte> lemme look for some past discussions
13:01:24 <SamB> %git 272776b8f10a9dced322747b7d5caca28386b134
13:01:24 <Cheibriados> 07MarvinPA02 * 0.8.0-a0-5296-g272776b: Allow starting with a Falchion or Trident for Fi and Gl only 10(2 years, 6 months ago, 2 files, 7+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=272776b8f10a
13:01:46 <SamB> doesn't say anything about why the falchion change was made
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13:07:19 <kilobyte> it's not like MarvinPA is hard to reach...
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13:13:11 <SamB> true
13:14:12 <SamB> !tell MarvinPA why can't (say) berserkers have falchions? 272776b doesn't really explain the reasoning ...
13:14:14 <Henzell> SamB: OK, I'll let marvinpa know.
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13:25:02 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.13-a0-2750-gb0eebf2: Revise treant bee-keeping 10(26 hours ago, 5 files, 41+ 40-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b0eebf247c74
13:25:02 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.13-a0-2751-gf41c9ff: Give treants a 'grasping roots' ability 10(21 hours ago, 16 files, 207+ 9-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f41c9ff8e569
13:25:02 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.13-a0-2752-gfa96e05: Properly show penalized EV in red 10(21 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=fa96e05e00d5
13:25:02 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.13-a0-2753-gceaa82b: Treant stat tweaks 10(21 hours ago, 3 files, 4+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ceaa82b55e0d
13:25:02 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.13-a0-2754-ga851570: Remove plain spiders from Summon Vermin, reduce average creatures per cast 10(21 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a851570d498f
13:25:02 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.13-a0-2755-g04d794b: Remove minor demon from a deep elf mage spellbook, replace with venom bolt 10(21 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=04d794b20634
13:25:02 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.13-a0-2756-g74236c5: Replace Caniforms with Druid's Call 10(2 hours ago, 7 files, 91+ 29-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=74236c541d93
13:25:02 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.13-a0-2757-gb82b49d: Remove minotaurs from Forest, adjust other monsters weights a little 10(69 minutes ago, 2 files, 8+ 43-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=b82b49dd516d
13:25:02 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.13-a0-2758-g6519f1c: Increase Awaken Forest damage 10(32 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6519f1c09706
13:25:02 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.13-a0-2759-ga750908: Properly color some Awaken Forest 'miss' messages darkgrey 10(27 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=a750908c55d3
13:25:02 <Cheibriados> ... and 1 more commits
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13:34:38 <SwissStopwatch> oh good no more durably summoned bees
13:34:50 <SwissStopwatch> the replacement to that seems rather like an improvement, I guess
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13:36:39 <kilobyte> SamB: falchions have been discussed many times, the main argument is that they're "too good"
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13:38:53 <SwissStopwatch> nevermind that even if they are slightly better it's still not enough for any race except HE to really prefer them strongly
13:39:00 <SwissStopwatch> a few would maybe prefer them weakly
13:40:03 <Grunt> I think my only long blade users have been HEs, the occasional Hu, and a Ds which I solely wanted to achieve a specific title with.
13:40:30 <SwissStopwatch> Vp wants long blades too
13:40:36 <Grunt> Oh yeah, Vps too.
13:40:57 <Grunt> (I haven't played very many Vps, and they've mostly been short blade users.)
13:42:34 <SwissStopwatch> really part of the reason I think falchions should be selectable for all backgrounds that get weapon choices
13:43:21 <SwissStopwatch> is that a few of those backgrounds are somewhat popular choices because they seem cool, but then not getting the weapon they obviously want to use as a starting choice ends up being pretty confusing
13:44:00 <SwissStopwatch> and some of those are relatively intricate compared to other simpler choices, they really don't need to worry about that too
13:44:08 <Grunt> What sorts of choices did you have in mind?
13:44:09 <SwissStopwatch> HESk is something I am specifically thinking of here
13:44:21 <Grunt> (Funnily enough, HESk is immediately what I thought of too.)
13:44:33 <SwissStopwatch> it's really the single combo that most cares about this, yes
13:45:07 <SwissStopwatch> if you also weight popularity, anyway
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13:45:24 <SwissStopwatch> there are a few others that it matters for, they just aren't played nearly as much
13:46:11 <SwissStopwatch> like this doesn't matter for races with flat weapon apts at all, they can just pick a spear or whatever and not care
13:46:30 <Grunt> !apt long blades
13:46:31 <Henzell> Long: Mi: 2!, HE: 2!, Dj: 1, HO: 1, Mf: 1, Te: 1, LO: 1, Ha: 0, Op: 0, Dr: 0, Hu: 0, Vp: 0, DD: 0, Na: 0, Ds: -1, Gh: -1, Dg: -1, Gr: -1, DE: -1, Ce: -1, Mu: -2, Sp: -2, Ko: -2, Tr: -2, Og: -3*, Fe: N/A
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13:54:40 <SwissStopwatch> !tell DracoOmega A certain person mentioned that lair also still can have regular druids, which probably is worth considering with some of those commits
13:54:41 <Henzell> SwissStopwatch: OK, I'll let dracoomega know.
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13:55:17 <SamB> !apt HE
13:55:18 <Henzell> HE: Fighting: 0, Short: 2, Long: 2!, Axes: -2, Maces: -2, Polearms: -2, Staves: 0, Slings: -2, Bows: 3!, Xbows: 0, Throw: 1, Armour: -1, Dodge: 1, Stealth: 2, Stab: -1, Shields: -1, Traps: 0, UC: -2*, Splcast: 1, Conj: 1, Hexes: 0, Charms: 2, Summ: -1, Nec: -2, Tloc: 1, Tmut: 1, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: 2, Earth: -2, Poison: -2, Inv: 1, Evo: 1, Exp: -1, HP: -1, MP: 2
13:55:25 <Grunt> The backgrounds that would be affected by anything falchion-related would be Be, CK, DK, and Sk, it looks like.
13:55:35 <SwissStopwatch> Wr also I think
13:55:38 <Grunt> Wr, yes.
13:55:41 <Grunt> I always forget Wr.
13:55:45 <SwissStopwatch> can't blame you
13:56:22 <SwissStopwatch> you could probably argue that the religious backgrounds don't need the help but that's more an issue with their main thing and not the weapon choice
13:57:10 <Naruni> hi
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14:00:17 <Naruni> i could really use some help with this git stuff
14:00:22 <Naruni> its not making sense to me
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14:01:40 <Naruni> ive done a patch 'a' and committed it locally. now i want to restore back to original build and work on some other stuff that will not be a part of my patch 'a'
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14:02:29 <geekosaur> you don't "restore back" with version control systems... no wonder it's not making sense
14:02:59 <Zannick> you kind of want branches, then
14:03:00 <geekosaur> at least, nor in normal use
14:03:10 <geekosaur> each of your work areas is a branch
14:04:01 <Naruni> yeah thats what i want
14:04:09 * geekosaur considers "git for ages 4 and up", which is not as condescending as its title might suggest
14:04:31 <Naruni> so i renamed one master branch to 'patch_a' and tried to go back to basic to work on my second branch
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14:04:50 <Naruni> when i did git reset --hard it still included my patch 'a' changes
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14:06:14 <Naruni> so what am i missing
14:06:32 <Naruni> and btw geekosaur im only 3
14:06:50 <Zannick> so reset --hard doesn't do what you want
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14:07:56 <Zannick> i think you want, in your new branch, git reset HEAD^1
14:08:40 <Zannick> to reset the state to just before your latest commit
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14:09:17 <Naruni> ok that lists all the files is had changed, now do i do another pull to go back to stock?
14:09:55 <Naruni> gah
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14:10:09 <Naruni> No tracking information for current branch
14:10:29 <Naruni> git checkout -b master fatal: a branch named master already exists
14:11:06 <Naruni> is there like a picture tutorial of how this thing works
14:12:18 <geekosaur> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ffBJ4sVUb4
14:12:20 <geekosaur> really
14:12:52 <gammafunk> DracoOmega: I like the forest changes, just looking at the commit messages
14:13:34 <gammafunk> DracoOmega: I also think thorn hunters might need a buff if you want them to be 'top-tier' forest enemies, but perhaps that wasn't your intention
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14:15:20 <DracoOmega> It originally was, but yes I don't think they've been accomplishing that. I buffed them a fair bit once already, but they might be able to use a little more
14:15:21 <Henzell> DracoOmega: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
14:16:01 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.13-a0-2761-gef09625: Replace a spriggan druid in Lair with a young druid 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ef09625c4e95
14:16:01 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.13-a0-2762-g829c9b8: Don't let young spriggan druids call more than one beast with Druid's Call 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=829c9b84dd98
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14:35:58 <kilobyte> DracoOmega: by the way, druids were supposed to spawn only in Forest; having them in Lair was a later addition -- and with no Forest, balance adjustments followed
14:37:40 <DracoOmega> Way back when?
14:38:06 <DracoOmega> I didn't know Forest was even in any state of solid plans when they were first added (didn't they come from a sprint or something?)
14:39:31 <Grunt> %git d6a041f
14:39:31 <Cheibriados> 07kilobyte02 * 0.7.0-a0-1664-gd6a041f: Spriggan druids -- wip 10(3 years, 4 months ago, 10 files, 132+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d6a041feb014
14:39:38 <Grunt> %git 9dd5427
14:39:38 <Cheibriados> 07kilobyte02 * 0.7.0-a0-1806-g9dd5427: Awaken Forest, a spriggan druid spell. 10(3 years, 3 months ago, 11 files, 149+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9dd5427862ba
14:40:06 <Grunt> %git f55284a
14:40:06 <Cheibriados> 07kilobyte02 * 0.7.0-a0-2408-gf55284a: Make druids summon wolves and bears, not mushrooms. 10(3 years, 2 months ago, 5 files, 39+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f55284a2963f
14:40:33 <Grunt> (those are the ones I can find readily)
14:40:58 <DracoOmega> Hmmm
14:43:09 <kilobyte> the first druid commit has been pushed accidentally
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14:55:18 <Cheibriados> 03DracoOmega02 07* 0.13-a0-2763-gf821f08: Slightly boost xp drain per hit, make it take more xp gain to overcome 10(5 minutes ago, 3 files, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f821f08e65f1
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15:06:12 <kilobyte> DracoOmega: perhaps the threshold on double summons could be related to the druid's HD?
15:06:12 <Naruni> ??throw icicle
15:06:13 <Henzell> throw icicle[1/1]: A 4th level Ice/Conjuration spell. Throw Icicle casts a single-target projectile of high-velocity ice, doing mixed cold and physical damage. 40% of the damage can be mitigated by cold resistance. 3d20 at max power. In the Book of Frost.
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15:06:27 <kilobyte> @??green rat
15:06:27 <Gretell> green rat (09r) | Spd: 10 | HD: 2 | HP: 6-16 | AC/EV: 5/11 | Dam: 10 | Res: 06magic(8) | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 13 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal.
15:06:31 <kilobyte> @??young druid
15:06:31 <Gretell> unknown monster: "young druid"
15:06:44 <kilobyte> @??young spriggan druid
15:06:44 <Gretell> young spriggan druid (03i) | Spd: 16 | HD: 8 | HP: 18-31 | AC/EV: 1/25 | Dam: 16 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, see invisible, 07vault | Res: 06magic(74) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 422 | Sp: sunray (3d15), awaken forest, haste plants, caniforms, minor healing (2d4) | Sz: little | Int: high.
15:07:03 <kilobyte> @??spriggan druid
15:07:04 <Gretell> spriggan druid (03i) | Spd: 16 | HD: 12 | HP: 28-45 | AC/EV: 1/25 | Dam: 16 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(112) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 897 | Sp: sunray (3d19), awaken forest, haste plants, caniforms, minor healing (2d6) | Sz: little | Int: high.
15:09:13 <DracoOmega> kilobyte: Well, that is exactly what I did
15:10:32 <kilobyte> I mean, instead of a magic all-or-none threshold it could still allow young druids to call popcorn
15:11:20 <DracoOmega> Oh, like two hounds or rats or something, but no double yaks?
15:13:23 <kilobyte> yeah
15:14:03 <DracoOmega> The threshold would need to scale in a somewhat odd way though, since a lot of scary things in Lair are only HD 6 and we don't want double mighted blink frogs (one of them is already really scary). The threshold for normal druids is nearly their own HD though (and could possibly be slightly higher without much change - the important thresholds involve dire elephants and ancient bears)
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15:19:13 <dpeg> DracoOmega: amazing changes! Were you aware of the tavern thread were the new elf spells were critized?
15:19:28 <kilobyte> lowest "hard" monsters in the Lair I see are HD 6
15:19:53 <DracoOmega> dpeg: I have seen criticism in more than a few places, yes. Some of which I think is reasonable and others... less so. Mixed with outright factually incorrect information, of course >.>;
15:20:37 <dpeg> DracoOmega: yes, don't get overwhelmed by it. A bit sad, but impossible to change, that many players communicate actual problems obnoxiously.
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15:22:49 <Naruni> dpeg can you help me find something in the source? im looking for the function that takes which spell is being casted and calculates damage
15:23:07 <Naruni> i keep running around in circles between spl-damage and spl-util and a mess of other files
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15:23:33 <DracoOmega> Naruni: The damage for a lot of spells can be found in zap-data.h but others do it in their own places if they are not standard zaps. There's not a universal way of doing this
15:23:55 <Naruni> zap-data i also looked through. for example im trying to find throw icicle
15:24:00 <DracoOmega> Well, that is there
15:24:17 <Naruni> ok so it was in zap-data, thanks DracoOmega
15:24:38 <dpeg> Naruni: I am source-illiterate, sorry!
15:24:39 <DracoOmega> Most spells that are standard projectiles can be found there. Things like shatter or LRD or tornado and such are not
15:25:15 <Naruni> now say spell power affected some other property of icicle (range for instance) would that lookup be inside the zap-data function or would that be external to like spl-cast
15:26:08 <Naruni> DracoOmega, also in zap-data it doesnt reference spell power at all
15:26:26 <DracoOmega> The formula is there, including scaling and such
15:27:25 <DracoOmega> new calcdice_calculator<3, 10, 1, 2> means that it does 3d((10+power*1/2)/3) damage
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15:27:58 <DracoOmega> (Not to be confused with dicedef_calculator, which is different >.>)
15:28:07 <Naruni> ah i need to look at that calcdice_calculator
15:28:09 <Naruni> thanks
15:28:09 <DracoOmega> And I can never remember which is which for sure
15:30:11 <dpeg> no replies about rune lock yet :(
15:30:41 <DracoOmega> Well, one thing the mailing list cannot be accused of being is active
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15:31:33 <DracoOmega> For what it's worth, I always liked the general idea of the proposal
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15:33:02 <dpeg> DracoOmega: no, mailing list is not active... but one of its objectives is that you can make specific proposals to developers (and the inner circle)
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15:35:08 <Naruni> dpeg, what flavour text would be better in a spell descriptor for regeneration? "Spell power affect's duration." or "Higher spell power increases duration."
15:35:22 <Naruni> or something else?
15:35:29 <|amethyst> SamB:  elliptic rather than MarvinPA might be the person to ask: 0.12-a0-501-g29525e4
15:37:09 <Naruni> "This spell's duration increases with spell power."
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15:38:43 <SamB> %git 0.12-a0-501-g29525e4
15:38:43 <Cheibriados> 07elliptic02 * 0.12-a0-501-g29525e4: Give berserkers a choice of starting weapon. 10(11 months ago, 2 files, 3+ 14-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=29525e4d5d2b
15:38:55 <SamB> |amethyst: hmm
15:39:15 <dpeg> Naruni: the last one is good
15:41:56 <elliptic> SamB: originally *nobody* had the option of starting with a long blade
15:42:14 <elliptic> then it was given to Gl/Fi
15:42:35 <SamB> elliptic: and it seems berserker were only later given the chance to pick their starting weapon
15:42:40 <elliptic> it could be given to other classes too... the idea was originally that long blades were good but hard to get early on
15:42:50 <elliptic> but as kilobyte said, they aren't particularly good nowadays
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15:43:17 <SamB> oh, but it seems that there was a time when everyone who could pick weapons could pick falchion ...
15:43:22 <|amethyst> %git 04d47c8a
15:43:22 <Cheibriados> 07elliptic02 * 0.10-a0-785-g04d47c8: Tweak early weapon generation. 10(1 year, 11 months ago, 2 files, 12+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=04d47c8a1433
15:43:26 <elliptic> only briefly
15:43:34 <kilobyte> still a notch better on D:1, just not through the early and mid game
15:43:34 <SamB> elliptic: I can believe that
15:43:59 <|amethyst> %git 272776b
15:43:59 <Cheibriados> 07MarvinPA02 * 0.8.0-a0-5296-g272776b: Allow starting with a Falchion or Trident for Fi and Gl only 10(2 years, 6 months ago, 2 files, 7+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=272776b8f10a
15:44:07 <|amethyst> oh, right
15:44:18 <|amethyst> %git 5fcad2d
15:44:18 <Cheibriados> 07MarvinPA02 * 0.8.0-a0-5050-g5fcad2d: Make long blades a starting weapon choice (RangerC) 10(2 years, 7 months ago, 2 files, 27+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5fcad2d60d98
15:44:21 <elliptic> at some point we should really try to rebalance the starting weapons and early common weapons of each type
15:44:39 <elliptic> until then, I don't particularly care whether Be or anyone else gets the falchion as an option, so feel free to give it to them
15:44:40 <kilobyte> and the diff exec axe/double sword/triple sword/demon trident/bardiche is quite subjective
15:45:12 <kilobyte> elliptic: would you prefer long blades to be indeed superior early on?
15:45:17 <DracoOmega> elliptic: Is there some specific issue you otherwise think exists among starting weapon choice at the moment? Or is it just that spear normally makes the most sense for the majority of characters?
15:45:36 <SamB> how about we just give it to everyone; that's simplest ...
15:46:01 <elliptic> DracoOmega: well, trident
15:46:11 <kilobyte> DracoOmega: picking spear costs you a few skill points compared to starting with your target weapon class
15:46:12 <DracoOmega> Oh, tridents sure. I was thinking for people OTHER than Fi/Gl
15:46:28 <DracoOmega> Tridents are obviously best if you can choose one and don't have an abyssmal polearms apt
15:46:29 <elliptic> for people other than Fi/Gl I don't think the starting weapons are unreasonable
15:46:35 <elliptic> for Fi/Gl, tridents are just so good
15:46:44 <Naruni> dpeg, so to keep some sort of uniformity, for a damage spell: "This spell's damage increases with spell power."
15:46:48 <elliptic> and there was some idea of giving Fi/Gl an improved selection of other weapon types too
15:46:55 <elliptic> but the balance just doesn't work currently
15:47:13 <kilobyte> those 3 or so skill points don't matter much xp-wise but have a persistent flaw of degrading acquirement/Okawaru/Trog
15:47:21 <elliptic> kilobyte: I sort of think it would be interesting to have a somewhat rare but stronger weapon type early on, yes
15:47:24 <|amethyst> Naruni:  perhaps "This spell's damage and accuracy increase with spell power", at least if that is the case (for M. Dart it's only damage for example)
15:47:42 <DracoOmega> Naruni: Also, to complicate things, what about spells whose duration and damage scale with power? :P
15:48:17 <DracoOmega> (At the moment that might only be OTR though?)
15:48:54 <Naruni> DracoOmega, "The cloud's damage and duration increases with spell power."
15:49:05 <DracoOmega> Cloud damage doesn't scale with power (or anything else)
15:49:24 <DracoOmega> Okay, I think TECHNICALLY steam cloud damage scales with their remaining duration, but they also barely do any damage ever anyway
15:49:24 <Naruni> what spell gets duration and damage
15:49:36 <elliptic> kilobyte: long blades are already much rarer as drops from gnolls/orcs, which accounts for a lot of early weapons
15:49:36 <DracoOmega> Fire/Cold and such clouds definitely do not
15:50:05 <DracoOmega> Naruni: As I said, I think it might only be Olgreb's Toxic Radiance at the moment, since Tornado duration is fixed regardless of power (I think)
15:50:10 <Naruni> |amethyst, i'll include accuracy if applicable
15:50:25 <dpeg> Naruni: yes, that'll do
15:50:43 <Naruni> DracoOmega, im not gonna mess with olgreb yet. im just gonna work the basics and get some standardized context going
15:50:56 <Naruni> special needs spells will get their own treatment
15:51:44 <kilobyte> elliptic: so you'd prefer bumping falchions, then?
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15:52:26 <elliptic> kilobyte: and long swords/scimitars too maybe
15:52:36 <|amethyst> ??long sword
15:52:37 <Henzell> long sword[1/1]: One-handed long blade (Dam: 10, Acc: +1, Delay: 14)
15:52:38 <|amethyst> ??Scimitar
15:52:39 <Henzell> scimitar[1/1]: A long sword with a curved blade. One-handed Long Blade; Dam 12 Acc -2 Delay 14.
15:52:39 <elliptic> ??maces and flails
15:52:39 <Henzell> maces and flails[1/2]: whip 2,6,11; club 3,5,13; hammer 3,7,13; mace 3,8,14; flail 0,10,14; morningstar -2,13,15; demon whip 1,11,11; holy scourge 0,12,11; eveningstar -1,15,15; dire flail -3,13,13[2]; g. mace -4,18,17[2]; g. club -6,20,17[2.5]; g. s. club -7,22,18[2.5]
15:52:43 <elliptic> ??long blades
15:52:43 <Henzell> long blades[1/1]: acc,dam,delay[hands]: falchion 2,8,13; long sword 1,10,14; scimitar -2,12,14; demon blade -1,13,13; double sword -1,15,15; great sword -3,16,16[2]; triple sword -4,19,19[2]
15:52:43 <SamB> bumping?
15:53:00 <|amethyst> I feel like pairs like long sword/scimitar shouldn't exist
15:53:10 <|amethyst> where it's a straight damage/acc tradeoff
15:53:16 <DracoOmega> Why? There's a definite difference and progression now
15:53:22 <|amethyst> because rarely would you want acc over damage
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15:53:30 <elliptic> well, scimitars are supposed to be an upgrade
15:53:31 <|amethyst> I'm complaining about them having the same delay
15:53:32 <DracoOmega> Well sure, but long blades are also easier to find earlier
15:53:37 <|amethyst> hm
15:54:00 <elliptic> currently long sword is a flail with +1 acc
15:54:34 <elliptic> and scimitar is similar to morningstar
15:55:10 <elliptic> maybe they don't need huge buffs, but they aren't really that impressive and the maces are a ton more common
15:56:34 <kilobyte> scimitars have one non-gameplay flaw: confusion with sabres
15:56:42 <DracoOmega> Confusion how?
15:57:38 <kilobyte> they look the same, translate the same, yet belong to whole different weapon classes
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15:58:01 <DracoOmega> I can't speak to translation issues, but they don't look the same to me
15:58:17 <DracoOmega> Nor would I have otherwise assumed they were the same, even when I was a beginner
15:59:33 <Naruni> this look good for apportation? "The amount of mass and distance apported increase with spell power."
15:59:48 <kilobyte> translations are kind of a red herring at the moment, but language-specific mental image is already a thing
16:00:32 <elliptic> I'm not an expert on swords by any means but looking at wikipedia it does seem pretty unclear to me why one is a long blade and the other a short blade
16:01:09 <dpeg> Naruni: yes, although the grammar seems a little stiff to me (non-native speaker here, so who cares :)
16:02:22 <DracoOmega> elliptic: Well, one is certainly more of a THIN blade, at least :P
16:02:45 <kilobyte> 17-18th century Poland was a world of sabres, with most sword types in popular use being them... so we Polacks would have a distinct word if it was indeed different enough.  Yet, in Polish wikipedia the article starts with "-- a type of oriental sabre"
16:02:50 <DracoOmega> A sabre is definitely not a stabbing sword though, admittedly
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16:03:04 <kilobyte> it's shorter than most popular sabres, even
16:03:19 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  the English wikipedia article as well
16:03:24 <|amethyst> A scimitar (/ˈsɪmɨtər/ or /ˈsɪmɨtɑr/)[1] is a backsword or sabre with a curved blade, originating in Southwest Asia (Middle East).
16:03:33 <kilobyte> |amethyst: heh, right
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16:04:06 <elliptic> anyway, if someone has a good suggestion for renaming one or both of them, go ahead
16:04:08 <DracoOmega> Really, when I stop to think on it, 'rapier' would probably have made more sense
16:04:11 * dpeg fathoms that one weapon type will depart very soon -- but which one will it be?
16:04:20 <DracoOmega> Since that IS a stabbing sword
16:04:21 <|amethyst> DracoOmega:  perfect!
16:04:21 <kilobyte> dpeg: hammer
16:04:35 <dpeg> poor Master's Hammer
16:04:54 <|amethyst> DracoOmega:  hm, actually
16:04:59 <|amethyst> DracoOmega:  hydra heads...
16:04:59 <kilobyte> DracoOmega: remind me, which class of weapons are used for stabbing in Crawl?
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16:05:16 <DracoOmega> kilobyte: Yes, I know
16:05:33 <DracoOmega> |amethyst: Yeah, currently it DOES do slashing damage. Which kind of makes the high stab bonus sort of odd, too
16:05:39 <DracoOmega> Somehow none of this had struck me before now though
16:05:56 <elliptic> short swords are slashy too (according to crawl)
16:06:01 <|amethyst> dagger and quick blade are DAMV_STABBING | DAM_SLICE
16:06:09 <BlastHardcheese> ??hydrap2[
16:06:10 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled hydrap2 in my learndb.
16:06:11 <|amethyst> sabre and short sword are DAMV_SLICING | DAM_PIERCE
16:06:15 <BlastHardcheese> ??hydra[2]
16:06:16 <Henzell> hydra[2/8]: Weapons that chop off hydra heads are: all long blades, all axes, all two-handed polearms, short sword, sabre, lajatang.
16:06:19 <|amethyst> long blades are DAMV_SLICING
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16:06:58 <DracoOmega> elliptic: Well, you theoretically could viable stab AND slash with various kinds of (nonspecific) short swords, but a sabre is definitely a bad stabbing weapon
16:07:17 <|amethyst> "cutlass" fits the current behaviour of sabres better than "rapier", but then what to do with the captain
16:07:29 <elliptic> captain's sabre
16:07:38 <DracoOmega> Haha
16:07:54 <Zannick> first mate's falchion
16:08:15 <|amethyst> cabin boy's club
16:08:30 <SamB> ??captain's cutlass
16:08:31 <Henzell> captains cutlass[1/1]: An unrandart +6,+7 short blade of speed. Has a custom base weapon: Dam 9, Acc +3, Delay 12. Minimum delay is reached at the same point as a sabre.
16:08:32 <Zannick> oarman's oar
16:08:46 <SamB> ??sabre
16:08:46 <Henzell> sabre[1/1]: Base damage:7, To-hit:+4, attack delay:12 short blade. Best common short blade in the game, though daggers are better for stabbing. Special-cased to have a minimum delay of 5.
16:09:00 <kilobyte> as the implementor of that weapon, I wouldn't cry if it got renamed
16:09:08 <kilobyte> heck, even changed or axed
16:09:17 <SamB> captains axe?
16:09:43 <SamB> could just upgrade it to an actual cutless ;-P
16:10:23 <kilobyte> SamB: what do you mean by that?
16:11:16 <SamB> or, wait, why would it need to change?
16:11:43 <SamB> its just a BETTER cutlass right?
16:13:00 <kilobyte> cutlass in wikipedia.en: "A cutlass is a short, broad sabre or slashing sword, ...", in wikipedia.pl: "Cutlass -- a melee weapon, a long straight or curved, single- or double-edged, knife"
16:13:02 <|amethyst> SamB:  I wouldn't want to have weapons with different base stats but the same name
16:13:47 <elliptic> it could have the usual cutlass (sabre) base stats and just have higher enchantment
16:14:02 <kilobyte> screw captain's cutlass, let's forget it for a moment, you can always muck with enchantment or whatever
16:14:03 <elliptic> it's a pretty boring unrand then though
16:14:31 <kilobyte> yeah, can be changed or removed
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16:15:01 <SamB> speed is still cool isn't it?
16:15:08 <Zannick> yeah
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16:15:48 <|amethyst> yeah, but just enchantment plus speed might as well not be an artefact
16:15:59 <|amethyst> when speed is available for the weapon type anyway
16:16:07 <|amethyst> we don't give out randarts with so few properties
16:16:29 <Naruni> ??blade hands
16:16:29 <Henzell> blade hands[1/3]: A potent level 5 transmutation spell that grants a large increase to unarmed damage but impedes spellcasting while active. Base damage is 8 + str/3 + dex/3 + UC. Also adds +6 to offhand punch damage. Does not stack with claws.
16:16:47 <Naruni> ??blade hands[2
16:16:48 <Henzell> blade hands[2/3]: You could be casting Blade Hands instead of reading this entry. Get to it.
16:16:51 <Naruni> ??blade hands[3
16:16:51 <Henzell> blade hands[3/3]: When you have blade hands, everything starts to look like a pillow.
16:17:20 <|amethyst> Naruni:  duration only
16:17:21 <Naruni> hmm i see nothing in the source that suggests anything else other than duration is affected by power
16:17:23 <elliptic> |amethyst: well, arguably having a different base type isn't any more interesting
16:17:27 <Zannick> Captain's cutlass hands
16:17:27 <|amethyst> Naruni:  for all the transformations
16:17:29 <Naruni> ok just checking
16:17:47 <|amethyst> elliptic:  yeah, but being bigger than any other weapon of its type does at least stand out
16:17:59 <kilobyte> the captain's cutlass is effectively a +5,+10 sabre of speed already (up to +11 if your dex is great)
16:18:10 <elliptic> ??glaive of prune
16:18:10 <Henzell> glaive of prune[1/2]: +4,+12 purple vorpal glaive. Unfortunately will *not* turn you into a prune, even if you are a scummy.
16:18:22 <|amethyst> elliptic:  FR: pruneform
16:19:07 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  skill bonus too
16:19:36 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  so up to around +6 with high dex/str and high sbl/fighting
16:20:08 <|amethyst> (+6 on top of a sabre with similar enchantment)
16:21:14 <kilobyte> no one trains it above mindelay, which for sabres for some strange reason is delay 5, skill 14
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16:21:34 <|amethyst> true
16:25:03 <Naruni> int i = (50*50) / 500 + 1 would equal 1?
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16:26:39 <|amethyst> 50*50 is 2500 not 250
16:26:43 <|amethyst> so 6
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16:36:19 <Cheibriados> Item shown on top of a door, probably after vault warden closed it <https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7502> by Medar
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16:46:13 <Grunt> Suggestion from tiles: give water elementals rElec-
16:46:21 <Grunt> (...wellsprings too <_<)
16:46:29 <Cheibriados> water elemental (02E) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 6 | HP: 32-53 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Dam: 2212(drown) | 11non-living, amphibious | Res: 13magic(immune), 10elec, 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 04fire | XP: 212 | Sz: Big | Int: plant.

16:46:29 <Bloax> %??Water elemental
16:46:41 <Bloax> rElec+
16:46:44 <Bloax> that's nice honey
16:47:22 <|amethyst> Grunt:  maybe try rElec0 first
16:47:49 <Grunt> Maybe if they're actively drowning something, it should conduct the electricity into that target >_>
16:47:53 <|amethyst> but - would probably make sense
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16:48:08 <Cheibriados> earth elemental (07E) | Spd: 6 | HD: 6 | HP: 33-57 | AC/EV: 14/4 | Dam: 40 | 11non-living | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 12cold+++, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 84 | Sz: Big | Int: plant.

16:48:08 <Bloax> %??Earth elemental
16:48:29 <|amethyst> btw, nothing at all has rElec- currently
16:48:36 <|amethyst> so there may be bugs that need to be worked out
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16:52:40 * kilobyte ponders merfolk using lightning rods.
16:53:06 <Grunt> kilobyte discharged into the water.
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16:57:19 <Bloax> as the ass that i am i thus ask
16:57:41 <Bloax> any plans on coloring the spell-stats bars
16:59:03 <Bloax> I'm not bad at counting things myself, and even I tend to recount the bars a lot.
17:01:34 <Bloax> And we should all know by now that ################# is way harder to count than 04###07###08###03###09###10##
17:02:47 <Grunt> I'd rather have them coloured in the style that the HP number is coloured.
17:02:55 <Grunt> ...i.e. one colour, but varying with spellpower.
17:03:47 <SamB> some sort of zebra striping might not be the *worst* idea for bars that long though ...
17:04:12 <elliptic> the bars aren't that long though
17:04:37 <dpeg> Bloax: our bars are shorter. Also, if you want to do something like that, you'd use two colours in blocks
17:04:59 <dpeg> eg. lightgrey darkgrey
17:05:14 <SwissStopwatch> I probably would think the Grunt idea is best but a problem with spellpower bars is never something I've had
17:06:54 <Bloax> <Bloax> d - 08Regeneration 04#07##08#02...... 01N/A 09#03#02..... 033
17:07:02 <Bloax> fancy fancy
17:07:57 <Bloax> or would you prefer d - Regeneration ####...... N/A ##..... 3 for readability
17:08:20 <elliptic> the latter
17:08:38 <elliptic> note that color is already used for other stuff on this screen
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17:09:00 <elliptic> telling people which spells are supported by your god, for instance
17:09:31 <Bloax> The name was just me being silly.
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17:11:13 <Bloax> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63152810/n/highcolorusage.png
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17:19:35 <Grunt> "the Grunt idea is best"
17:19:42 <Grunt> That may be one of the few times anyone's ever said that >_>
17:24:41 <G-Flex> is there any mechanical effect of a plant getting mutated?
17:25:02 <G-Flex> never mind
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17:56:47 <dpeg> DracoOmega, elliptic, kilobyte, SamB, |amethyst (probably missed devs, we're so many :) -- I'd appreciate any feedback on rune lock, even if you just say you don't care either way, or +1 if you're in favour of trying it out. Thanks!
17:56:51 <dpeg> sleep now
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17:57:50 <SamB> doesn't dpeg know to scan down the list of voiced people?
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17:58:05 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.13-a0-2764-gd893c7e: Don't duplicate stolen blood (#4414). 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 14+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d893c7e210e1
17:58:05 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.13-a0-2765-gac96337: A dingo ate my newline! 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ac96337c8609
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18:04:24 <Cheibriados> Cherry-picked 1 commit into stone_soup-0.12
18:04:53 * kilobyte mutters something about railroads.
18:05:09 <SamB> oh dear, not another long discussion!
18:05:57 <kilobyte> :p
18:06:19 <Cheibriados> 03SamB02 07* 0.13-a0-2766-gc23b301: Falchion no longer OP; don't ban as a starting weapon for anyone. 10(33 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c23b3016c0c7
18:06:30 <Grunt> SamB: oh, you beat me to it <_<
18:06:55 <SwissStopwatch> HESk now several times more fun
18:07:02 <SamB> Grunt: well I was thinking about doing this last night
18:07:25 <Ruffell> killration (L21 DrSk) ASSERT(mons_habitat(this) == HT_WATER) in 'mon-ench.cc' at line 1167 failed. (Vaults:5)
18:07:26 <SamB> though I didn't have the info I used in the commit message yet then
18:07:38 * Bloax grunts, like bloaxes often do
18:08:12 <Soner> What happens when you get a runelock above Vaults?
18:09:06 <Lantell> dck (L17 DDWr)  (D (Sprint))
18:09:16 <Grunt> Clearly place a rune lock on the D:7 downstair.
18:09:42 <SwissStopwatch> rune lock on D:7 downstairs, AK or bust
18:10:24 <Grunt> No, we're getting rid of Lucy, AK, and the Abyss at the same time.
18:11:01 <gammafunk> Grunt: You don't like any of those?
18:11:02 <SamB> are we discussing strategies for making the game unwinnable?
18:11:09 <Grunt> D will be seven levels.
18:11:23 <SwissStopwatch> implement dwants and have them dig past D:7 clearly
18:11:27 <Grunt> Kill everything in D to cause the Orb to appear on D:7.
18:11:37 <DracoOmega> Soner: What do you mean 'when you do'? The proposal would have it always above the shallowest depth Vaults can spawn
18:11:57 <SwissStopwatch> D:14 runelock, huh
18:12:02 <|amethyst> Soner:  it's a one-rune lock, not three
18:12:37 <kilobyte> could be four, if we guarantee an item of distortion in the Slime vault
18:13:09 <Grunt> kilobyte: make it easy; put an Abyss portal there.
18:13:09 <DracoOmega> Heck, why not go for 8 and remove all Lair endvaults except the Hell one? :P
18:13:30 <SwissStopwatch> I wonder how many games I've had where I really think a lair rune is plausible to get with a reasonable chance of success directly after Orc:4
18:13:36 <SwissStopwatch> excepting slime
18:13:37 <Grunt> Guarantee a Pan portal on Orc:4 or something.
18:13:43 <mikee_> most of them
18:13:49 <Soner> I thought someone mentioned a D:15 runelock, and I was just wondering if I'd HAVE to do the other branches if that was the case.
18:13:51 <DracoOmega> SwissStopwatch: Well, dieselrobin required this and it wasn't too awful
18:13:53 <Grunt> No, wait.    Elf:3.
18:14:00 <DracoOmega> SwissStopwatch: (In fact, I rather enjoyed it)
18:14:06 <mikee_> it's easier than you think if you're not brainwashed by elliptic's branch order propaganda
18:14:19 <SwissStopwatch> I probably wouldn't enjoy it on games where I don't get Swamp
18:14:51 <DracoOmega> Soner: Yes, the idea was to encourage people to do one of the easier rune branches earlier than they might otherwise
18:15:01 <|amethyst> I think comrade mikee may need some reeducation
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18:15:41 <Soner> Draco, it doesn't encourage people to do one of the easier rune branches, it forces them to.
18:15:43 <SwissStopwatch> (on dieselrobin, I think I had Swamp available when I did this)
18:16:12 <DracoOmega> Soner: That's a kind of encouragement!
18:16:40 <DracoOmega> SwissStopwatch: I had to do the salamander Snake end on one of them there
18:16:44 <|amethyst> A bypass wouldn't be in the first version, but would be a possibility
18:16:58 <gammafunk> DracoOmega: One of my favorite things to do in speedruns is vaults before any other branch…
18:17:13 <Grunt> !lm * rune urune=1 s=rune
18:17:14 <Sequell> 30201 milestones for * (rune urune=1): 8379x decaying, 7653x serpentine, 3808x barnacled, 2706x gossamer, 1879x silver, 1656x demonic, 949x abyssal, 631x slimy, 382x dark, 370x fiery, 339x glowing, 337x magical, 230x bone, 226x icy, 225x golden, 216x iron, 215x obsidian
18:17:20 <Grunt> Clearly get a hell rune first.
18:17:22 <SwissStopwatch> salamander snake kind of is dangerous but on the other hand it's at least possible to use the terrain to your advantage
18:17:24 <Grunt> Or Tomb.
18:17:31 <DracoOmega> SwissStopwatch: It's a bit scary at like xl 15
18:18:00 <Grunt> !lg * map=~salamander min=xl
18:18:00 <SwissStopwatch> it's scary well past that, but it's definitely possible to do at like 15-16
18:18:01 <Sequell> 168. KeeTraxx the Destroyer (L12 HEFE), worshipper of Vehumet, blasted by a greater naga (poison arrow) on Snake:5 (snake_pit_salamanders_mu) on 2012-06-26 14:34:39, with 30912 points after 18729 turns and 1:28:52.
18:18:17 <mikee_> back when i didn't like vaults as much i would do two lair runes and call it a game
18:18:21 <mikee_> save forever
18:18:36 <Grunt> !lg * urune>0 ktyp=leaving s=name
18:18:36 <Sequell> 55 games for * (urune>0 ktyp=leaving): 3x syban, 3x enxombed, 2x nht, 2x killration, 2x bmfx, 2x Turgon, syllogism, Ivrigtyur, megane, afrogsoup, Rosstin, ihlosi, Abner, Soner, trucutru, hyperbolic, Shovelmint, Frumple3, Ellick, Poncheis, meneril, duke, SchwaWarrior, patseb, Diplomat, Sticking, Aspa, reid, Miritol, Kromgart, kickascii, Kamina, maso, hamiltond465, lumpensolker, Arrhythmia, Miton, o...
18:19:02 <DracoOmega> SwissStopwatch: Well, I did survive it, so....
18:19:04 <SwissStopwatch> also
18:19:12 <SwissStopwatch> Dieselrobin was actually a lot more lenient than this is
18:19:28 <DracoOmega> Actually the opposite
18:19:29 <SwissStopwatch> since it allowed you to go to D:20
18:19:44 <DracoOmega> Well, you were also locked into the one branch you enter first
18:19:54 <DracoOmega> Which you certainly wouldn't be here
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18:20:18 <DracoOmega> So if it turns out to be horrible for whatever reason, you can't pull out and try the other one
18:20:40 <SwissStopwatch> even so, 15-20 is really a lot of extra exp
18:20:44 <DracoOmega> (I am not advocating strongly for it here, just pointing out that I think it was effectively stricter)
18:21:12 <SwissStopwatch> and I don't think there are that many things that would make me want to change which branch I'm trying to get, even dangerous uniques I try to bypass
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18:21:47 <DracoOmega> Well, you do get multiple levels of the other branch for xp and loot, too, if you want it.
18:21:58 <DracoOmega> Or some Elf or something else
18:22:27 <SwissStopwatch> you also get elf in Dieselrobin, nevermind that really, both it and lair 1-4 floors aren't that much XP
18:22:28 <Soner> If someone couldn't manage Vaults, I doubt they'd want to do Elf either.
18:22:48 <DracoOmega> SwissStopwatch: Well, the balance is more favorable than it used to be in that regard
18:23:05 <SwissStopwatch> doing Elf before lair branches on Dieselrobin was "fun"
18:23:17 <DracoOmega> Actually, Elf is worth like a whole Lair rune branch at the moment, I think?
18:23:31 <DracoOmega> Somewhere in that vacinity
18:23:38 <elliptic> that wouldn't surprise me
18:23:40 <SwissStopwatch> you're not seriously going to do the end vault if you're worried about lair runes
18:23:46 <SwissStopwatch> unless you aren't including that
18:24:07 <Soner> But you might want to dive a few levels into the dungeon, to try and get that rPois ring for Swamp or whatever.
18:24:07 <DracoOmega> SwissStopwatch: No, I was responding to a seperate point there. But possible Elf:1-2 is not a lot different than 1-4 from some Lair rune branch either
18:24:18 <elliptic> however neither is that much xp
18:25:02 <elliptic> rune lock has been a tourney banner for a while, and it has seemed pretty doable there
18:25:02 <SwissStopwatch> going through both rune branches in the rare events that I bailed out of V and mid-late D is enough to get, like..... L16-17
18:25:21 <SwissStopwatch> from 16 to 17ish, I mean
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18:25:34 <SwissStopwatch> this is without the end vaults, which are of course packed with XP
18:26:09 <SwissStopwatch> greater nagas, hydra, swamp dragons, emperor scorpions, classed merfolk: good sources of XP
18:27:06 <DracoOmega> A Lair rune branch is worth around 65k xp at the moment, from this spreadsheet here. And D:15-20 is about 80k? Something like that.
18:27:48 <SwissStopwatch> but again, are you including the end of the rune branch?
18:28:11 <DracoOmega> In that case, yes. The spreadsheet didn't split those numbers, sorry ^^;
18:28:15 <SwissStopwatch> like a lot of those end vaults have a lot more XP than the rest of the place put together
18:28:50 <Grunt> Way back when I was drawing up statistics for Snake endings, they ranged from 25k to 50k or so.
18:29:01 <elliptic> lair rune branches not giving that much XP (even the end vaults) is the main reason why I tell people to delay them, btw :P
18:29:13 <Grunt> (The 50k being salamanders_mu)
18:29:20 <Grunt> (...and the 25k being snake_pit, IIRC.)
18:29:35 <elliptic> because D:15-20 will be safer than Snake:5 and worth more xp and has more loot
18:29:37 <SwissStopwatch> yeah, given that they actually can be somewhat dangerous the amount of XP they give is odd
18:29:49 <SwissStopwatch> some of them are better about it than others
18:29:58 <DracoOmega> Grunt: Well, a bunch of things have changed since then
18:30:09 <Grunt> I know I computed these numbers for Swamp endings more recently than that, but I don't remember any of those numbers.
18:30:38 <DracoOmega> SwissStopwatch: A lot of Lair rune branch end threats gave oddly low xp, which I increased (sometimes considerably)
18:30:44 <elliptic> anyway, if rune lock happens then I'd suggest doing something to make D:15-19 or so more dangerous
18:30:46 <DracoOmega> Well, in relative terms
18:31:00 <elliptic> so that they won't feel trivial after getting a rune
18:31:05 <elliptic> not sure the best way of doing this
18:31:19 <SwissStopwatch> I think the XP in the threats outside of branch end is more important here
18:31:43 <SwissStopwatch> like... actually, is learndb updated with the new values you edited monsters to?
18:31:48 <SamB> elliptic: alternatively we could make them more dangerous without a runelock
18:31:48 <SwissStopwatch> not learndb
18:31:52 <SwissStopwatch> but Chei I guess
18:31:56 <DracoOmega> Yes, Chei was long ago
18:32:24 <elliptic> SamB: well, then there would be a huge difficulty jump from D:13 to D:15
18:32:30 <elliptic> with nothing in between
18:32:34 <elliptic> which is a bit strange
18:32:45 <SamB> wait, no D:14 at all?
18:32:53 <SamB> that would be quite strange indeed
18:33:02 <elliptic> well, it's a bit unclear where D:14 fits in this lock
18:33:02 <Cheibriados> hydra (09D) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | HP: 50-89 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Dam: 18 per head | amphibious, cold-blooded, regen | Res: 06magic(52), 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 09poison+07contam | XP: 976 | Sz: Big | Int: reptile.

18:33:02 <SwissStopwatch> %??hydra
18:33:16 <elliptic> like, is the lock between D:13 and D:14 or between D:14 and D:15?
18:33:19 <elliptic> either would work
18:33:19 <Cheibriados> naga warrior (02N) | Spd: 8 (act: 80%) | HD: 10 | HP: 92-108 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 28, 603(constrict) | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, see invisible, !sil | Res: 06magic(80), 03poison | Chunks: 09poison | XP: 839 | Sp: poison splash (d16) | Sz: Large | Int: normal.

18:33:19 <SwissStopwatch> %??naga warrior
18:33:26 <elliptic> so I was saying 13 and 15 for safety
18:33:28 <SwissStopwatch> these two things give decent XP, all considered
18:34:36 <SwissStopwatch> spider doesn't really have stuff with good XP
18:34:56 <Cheibriados> wolf spider (16s) | Spd: 15 | HD: 11 | HP: 39-70 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 2508(poison), 15 | web sense | Res: 06magic(29) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 09poison+07contam | XP: 567 | Sz: Medium | Int: insect.

18:34:56 <Grunt> %??wolf spider
18:35:03 <Grunt> ...less than I thought.
18:35:06 <DracoOmega> SwissStopwatch: Well, the total xp values for each branch are quite close on average, actually
18:35:21 <DracoOmega> Spider might have fewer large things, but it has higher average values for common monsters
18:36:19 <DracoOmega> (And there are generally more of them, I expect)
18:36:30 <SwissStopwatch> spider has a fair bit of very low-xp stuff
18:37:28 <DracoOmega> Actually, in this spreadsheet, Spider has the highest xp of the 4 (by a small amount)
18:37:29 <SwissStopwatch> I suppose like demonic crawler, jumping spider, tarantella, trapdoor spider aren't terrible but they aren't that far off of, say, merfolk
18:37:53 <SwissStopwatch> It's never felt that way to me, I would've suspected it would be swamp and notparticularly close
18:38:18 <DracoOmega> (Swamp has the least)
18:38:21 <SwissStopwatch> alligator, swamp dragon, hydra all give quite good XP
18:38:56 <SwissStopwatch> and I mean, I at least am pretty sure I stand by how it's "felt" when I've played
18:39:13 <SwissStopwatch> maybe in practice it's Snake because I'm most likely to actually clear that one
18:39:16 <DracoOmega> According to this, Swamp is 62140, Snake 65961, Shoals 66115, and Spider 67921
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18:39:39 <DracoOmega> Obviously there's a large variance though
18:39:45 <DracoOmega> From one game to the next
18:39:45 <SwissStopwatch> is this "amount of monster XP generated for the set of stuff that spawns on a given floor"?
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18:40:00 <DracoOmega> Yes, for the whole branch (this does include vaults), averaged across many many generations
18:40:06 <DracoOmega> And excluding uniques
18:40:34 <SwissStopwatch> I think it's possible that the monsters that generate after the initial floor population are mattering here?
18:40:50 <DracoOmega> I would assume they follow similar trends
18:41:00 <DracoOmega> Though looking at this OTHER column, Spider was the smallest BEFORE my changes
18:41:10 <DracoOmega> Though the difference was still not large
18:41:13 <SwissStopwatch> yes, I might well still have that in mind
18:41:45 <DracoOmega> Even then, it was 63531 compared to Swamp's 69297
18:42:38 <DracoOmega> Which is like a 10% difference
18:42:42 <SwissStopwatch> I can't say I know how the timer works, but depending on how generation is swamp may well end up having extra dragons/hydras show up as you clear. It's also possible my argument on this point is kind of weak
18:43:25 <SwissStopwatch> A possibly stronger one: some backgrounds might have quite a lot of trouble with this a fair amount of the time, if their item drops are fairly bad throughout the game
18:44:36 <DracoOmega> Well, I think midgame being overall harder is an intended part of the effect here? I doubt it would be unfairly so.
18:44:37 <SwissStopwatch> and by throughout the game I mean D:1-13/14, Lair, Orc
18:44:54 <DracoOmega> My main concern personally is with the more subjective intangibles
18:44:59 <SwissStopwatch> Well it's clearly part of the intent yes
18:45:08 <DracoOmega> (ie: fun)
18:45:17 <SwissStopwatch> And I don't think that intent is really bad either
18:45:28 <SwissStopwatch> although I wonder if it's looking at the wrong half of the midgame maybe
18:45:52 <DracoOmega> Well, I'd like to think the xp rebalancing at least incentivized earlier rune branch clears somewhat
18:46:05 <DracoOmega> But I can't say I know if it had a lot of effect in that regard or not
18:46:19 <Grunt> Wait for the 0.13 tournament to establish that, then.
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18:46:25 <SwissStopwatch> I think for most people it's hard to individually get a sense of something like this
18:46:56 <SwissStopwatch> If you're on one end of the spectrum (the one I'm not on), you die a lot, never see any of this, so of course you don't know at all
18:47:04 <Grunt> That way, we get enough people playing it to get statistics.
18:47:10 <Grunt> ...meaningful statistics, that is.
18:47:18 <SwissStopwatch> If you're on the one I'm closer to, you get a few games through but doing it 4 times isn't really enough
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18:47:32 <SwissStopwatch> maybe the answer is "ask bmfx"
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18:47:52 <SwissStopwatch> or tournament, either way
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18:48:15 <DracoOmega> Well, average entrance level for Swamp has gone down by 1.5, while the one for Vaults has remained the same, which MIGHT mean more people do one before the other
18:48:40 <DracoOmega> For some extremely quick and crude stats :P
18:48:57 <SwissStopwatch> well, if people haven't changed their behaviors at all, then with your changes to XP, what effect would that have on the numbers?
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18:49:25 <DracoOmega> You might expect a more uniform decrease across branches, maybe?
18:49:50 <DracoOmega> If the average xl on entrance to a branch hasn't changed a lot, yet level gain is slowed, that seems to imply people are inserting new sources of xp in the middle
18:49:51 <DracoOmega> Maybe
18:49:53 <SwissStopwatch> Well, your XP level changes started to kick in and slow growth down around.... XL15, 16?
18:50:14 <DracoOmega> Aroundish
18:50:34 <SwissStopwatch> I frequently am entering Vaults around this level, and frequently was entering rune branches around XL20ish or higher
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18:51:04 <DracoOmega> Well, most people always did (and still do) enter rune branches earlier than 20, and Vaults later than 15-16
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18:51:31 <SwissStopwatch> yes, it's possible I'm not typical - I think maybe the vaults changes also incentivized people to put that off
18:51:44 <SwissStopwatch> because a lot of the new enemies are dangerous and not to be screwed with
18:52:13 <SwissStopwatch> I may be going in at XL16 but I'm certainly fleeing in terror from wardens a lot of the time if my other main option would be to melee them
18:53:01 <SwissStopwatch> I suspect it's pretty hard to control for any of these things with the datasets we have, I can even think of a few other things that might mess with it
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18:53:57 <SwissStopwatch> Like I can say that the amount of XP a branch in it has absolutely nothing to do with my decision to be there at a particular time, it's entirely the danger level
18:54:13 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.13-a0-2767-g0776aa4: Improve a comment (ChrisOelmueller) 10(29 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0776aa49448b
18:54:13 <Cheibriados> 03ChrisOelmueller02 {|amethyst} 07* 0.13-a0-2768-g5dd9cea: Fix some book names in comments 10(24 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=5dd9ceac7455
18:54:13 <Cheibriados> 03ChrisOelmueller02 {|amethyst} 07* 0.13-a0-2769-g673307e: Fix some typos in comments and docs 10(24 hours ago, 6 files, 12+ 12-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=673307ef264f
18:54:13 <Cheibriados> 03ChrisOelmueller02 {|amethyst} 07* 0.13-a0-2770-g8ef8ee4: Fix a comment 10(24 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8ef8ee49896b
18:54:13 <Cheibriados> 03ChrisOelmueller02 {|amethyst} 07* 0.13-a0-2771-g403a032: Fix code layout 10(24 hours ago, 4 files, 8+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=403a032a93cd
18:54:13 <Cheibriados> 03ChrisOelmueller02 {|amethyst} 07* 0.13-a0-2772-g9cbdda8: Spell overview: Highlight toggle input keys 10(33 hours ago, 1 file, 3+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9cbdda83dffa
18:54:15 <SwissStopwatch> and I'm not sure to what degree this is true for how many people
18:54:19 <DracoOmega> Yes, but indirectly they sort of affect each other
18:54:36 <DracoOmega> If you level slower, later stuff is more dangerous, and thus you might do other easier stuff that was previously sidelined
18:55:40 <SwissStopwatch> yes, but if I figured the stuff was more dangerous and there was weaker stuff, I was going to do the weaker stuff first anyway
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18:56:02 <DracoOmega> Well, early floors of Lair rune branches are absolutely easier than Vaults
18:56:03 <SwissStopwatch> I suppose I lied in one way there, I'll skip stuff if I think the amount of XP is too low but I'm not eager to go for high-XP targets
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18:56:25 <SwissStopwatch> in some way though that's still perhaps the same thing, if runes are no longer low XP they can ger back on the list perhaps
18:56:27 <|amethyst> !learn del is_cszo_down[1]
18:56:27 <DracoOmega> But if one figures that Vaults is easy ENOUGH, you might just keep on going
18:56:27 <Henzell> Deleted is cszo down[1/2]: "Emergency maintenance" on one of the ISP's core routers Wed 14 Aug, 04:00-05:00 UTC.
18:57:32 <DracoOmega> Like, I found myself increasingly skipping Crypt and Elf on later characters, not because I actually disliked those places, but because they just felt superfluous - I was already plenty strong enough, and now confident in my character's ability to win without undue struggle
18:57:54 <Grunt> I've won at least one game without entering Vaults at all.
18:58:10 <Grunt> (I don't think that character did Elf either.)
18:58:10 <DracoOmega> That I have not done. I think you'd need to be aiming specifically for that for it to happen, though.
18:58:20 <Grunt> No, it was completely unintentional at the outset.
18:58:37 <Grunt> !lm . natm ktyp=winning s=runee
18:58:38 <Sequell> No milestones for Grunt (natm ktyp=winning).
18:58:38 <Grunt> !lm . natm ktyp=winning s=rune
18:58:39 <Sequell> 3 milestones for Grunt (natm ktyp=winning): abyssal, gossamer, barnacled
18:58:42 <SwissStopwatch> "oops I skipped vaults" less bad than "oops, I forgot the orb of zot"
18:58:47 <Grunt> !lm . natm ktyp=winning type=br.end s=noun
18:58:47 <Sequell> 6 milestones for Grunt (natm ktyp=winning type=br.end): Zot, D, Orc, Spider, Lair, Shoals
18:58:53 <Grunt> !lm . natm ktyp=winning type=br.enter s=noun
18:58:53 <Sequell> 8 milestones for Grunt (natm ktyp=winning type=br.enter): Zot, Orc, Bailey, Shoals, Temple, Ossuary, Spider, Lair
18:58:54 <DracoOmega> SwissStopwatch: Well, back when you could do this, I forgot all my runes
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19:00:39 <SwissStopwatch> as the only person for whom offline games count, I assume you've done everything possible in Crawl at least once
19:03:19 <DracoOmega> Haha
19:03:25 <DracoOmega> I have never tried branchless!
19:03:52 <SwissStopwatch> don't ruin it for me
19:03:59 <DracoOmega> Hehe
19:04:07 <mikee_> never won an elm, have you
19:04:12 <DracoOmega> Also no
19:04:18 <SwissStopwatch> but seriously I guess what you're saying about skipping elf/crypt happens for me at times, but I think of it in a different way
19:04:22 <DracoOmega> Have even YOU won an Elm? :P
19:04:28 <mikee_> i've won many elms
19:04:29 <SwissStopwatch> like "if I thought this was fun, I'd do it"
19:04:33 <mikee_> my favorite is guardian elm
19:04:54 <SwissStopwatch> were these offline
19:04:59 <mikee_> of course
19:05:07 <DracoOmega> SwissStopwatch: I think I was more concerned with turncount at the time, to be honest
19:05:14 <DracoOmega> SwissStopwatch: And probably would have done them for the heck of it otherwise
19:05:23 <DracoOmega> Like, I don't like speedrunning, so it's kind of an odd concern
19:05:29 <SwissStopwatch> well to be fair I'm clearly not someone who cares about speed in either sense yeah
19:05:44 <DracoOmega> It's more like a gauge of general effeciency, since I do like to full clear things
19:06:02 <SwissStopwatch> perfect clears are the devil
19:06:04 <DracoOmega> I tried speedrunning just long enough to realize how actively unfun I find leaving stuff unexplored like that
19:06:12 <DracoOmega> Makes me twitch
19:06:32 <SwissStopwatch> but at least 10/12 of the superfluous runes in crawl are more fun than, say, the postgame garbage in JRPGs
19:06:49 <DracoOmega> My best 'speedrun' is actually online
19:07:02 <DracoOmega> It has a very embarassing death, since I didn't know what I was doing
19:07:09 <DracoOmega> !lg place=Dis
19:07:10 <Sequell> 1. DracoOmega the Cryomancer (L24 DrIE), worshipper of Vehumet, mangled by an iron dragon on Dis:7 (dis_st) on 2012-05-25 07:42:45, with 620799 points after 49510 turns and 9:25:58.
19:07:16 <DracoOmega> !lg place=Dis s=urune
19:07:16 <Sequell> One game for DracoOmega (place=Dis): 9
19:07:20 <Grunt> o_O
19:07:39 <DracoOmega> 9 runes in 50k turns isn't so bad for not knowing what I was doing, I guess
19:07:43 <SwissStopwatch> well you sort of have to know what's up just a little to get to Dis:7
19:07:59 <SwissStopwatch> well OK that's not true
19:08:06 <SwissStopwatch> we've all seen tv evidence to the contrary
19:08:20 <DracoOmega> Well, I had been forced to leave Dis 2 times already and although I SHOULD have retreated again, was feeling the pressure of the time I was wasting
19:08:33 <DracoOmega> But kind of awkwardly tried to press on anyway
19:08:48 <mikee_> hilarious tv evidence
19:08:52 <DracoOmega> Basically I was playing in a fashion that was somewhat new to me and which I wasn't that comfortable with, and thus making silly mistakes in the process
19:09:15 <mikee_> i can understand that
19:09:35 <DracoOmega> I could totally have done it safely if I had tried to be a little more measured
19:09:47 <SwissStopwatch> we can't all be like me and get away with rTeleing into LoS of antaeus
19:09:59 <DracoOmega> (And then I got to see ##crawl make fun of it for using lantern of shadows, before they really even knew who I was :P)
19:10:02 <mikee_> that's generally how i do coc
19:10:15 <mikee_> i don't really like walking around coc:7
19:10:15 <DracoOmega> When it came up on splattv or whatever
19:10:41 <SwissStopwatch> ##crawl mocking your deaths can be a very good experience for learning to play better at least
19:10:54 <DracoOmega> Well, I don't think they pointed out anything I didn't already know
19:11:22 <DracoOmega> There is at least one hilarious moment where I land after a teleport, the place looks safe, I take off my lantern and there's another fiend in the space that just became revealed
19:11:29 <DracoOmega> So I put it back on again T.T
19:11:36 <mikee_> haha
19:12:58 <DracoOmega> Disappointingly I left an ice storm ghost and it never bothered to even cast ice storm once
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19:26:19 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2772-g9cbdda8 (34)
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21:11:55 <bh> hai
21:13:03 <SamB> !seen JoshTriplett
21:13:03 <Henzell> I last saw JoshTriplett at Thu Aug 22 04:16:21 2013 UTC (21h 56m 42s ago) parting ##crawl with message 'chanpart'.
21:14:12 <bh> !seen dpeg
21:14:13 <Henzell> I last saw dpeg at Thu Aug 22 22:56:52 2013 UTC (3h 17m 21s ago) quitting with message 'Quit: leaving'.
21:14:14 <SamB> !tell JoshTriplett you can start your berserkers with Falchions now ;-)
21:14:15 <Henzell> SamB: OK, I'll let joshtriplett know.
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21:41:38 <bh> can we glue webtiles chat onto IRC?
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21:43:41 <kilobyte> isn't it per-game?
21:44:28 <geekosaur> yes
21:44:53 <geekosaur> someone was griping the other day about how they always were first in the game list so people tended to jump into chat theer and use it as general chat
21:45:02 <geekosaur> which they found really distracting
21:45:15 <|amethyst> solution:  aaaaaaarobin
21:45:20 <bh> if we wired it up to an IRC server we could have per player channels
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21:45:34 <Grunt> |amethyst: 0000000000000000
21:46:43 <bh> hurr
21:47:58 <|amethyst> bh:  what's the benefit?
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21:48:45 <bh> webtiles chat is limited
21:48:49 <bh> and has a bunch of users
21:48:58 <bh> plus the player could kickban people
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23:13:31 <Lantell> Stable (0.12) branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.12.2-19-gc1c9fca
23:18:58 <SamB> !tell SamB quotemstr said to play Slouching Toward Bedlam
23:18:59 <Henzell> SamB: OK, I'll let samb know.
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23:21:22 <|amethyst> it's an excellent game
23:21:29 <|amethyst> have you played Tapestry?
23:21:37 <|amethyst> s/game/IF/
23:22:06 <SamB> !tell SamB Varicella was mentioned too
23:22:07 <Henzell> SamB: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
23:22:07 <Henzell> SamB: OK, I'll let samb know.
23:22:25 <SamB> |amethyst: I'm not sure if I played Tapestry or not
23:22:25 <Henzell> SamB: You have 3 messages. Use !messages to read them.
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23:22:33 <SamB> !messages
23:22:34 <Henzell> (1/3) SamB said (6w 6d 23h 27m 39s ago): <Lightli> Just use an omega symbol and be done with it
23:26:26 <|amethyst> SamB:  It was Daniel Ravpinto's (co-author of StB) previous game, and won second place in the 1996 ifcomp (after _The Meteor, the Stone, and a Long Glass of Sherbet_)
23:27:38 <Grunt> SamB, those are both excellent works :)
23:27:43 <Grunt> (the ones you !told yourself about)
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23:43:51 <Lantell> Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.13-a0-2772-g9cbdda8 (34)
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