00:00:07 <|amethyst> not directly in trunk I hope :)
00:00:24 <gammafunk> no, under X
00:00:37 <gammafunk> I still see destruction as well, but I also see formicids and jump there
00:01:35 * SamB wonders what's a good background for a felid
00:02:53 <gammafunk> I'm trying FeBe
00:04:16 -!- Chozo has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
00:04:22 -!- Riddim has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:05:13 <|amethyst> yeah, since I was adding a submenu anyway I left it for now
00:05:28 <|amethyst> since there are people playing it
00:05:48 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2805-g83f2281 (34)
00:05:58 <Ruffell> Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.13-a0-2805-g83f2281 (34)
00:08:14 -!- runner has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
00:09:04 <SamB> hmm, no pouncing + berserking I notice ...
00:09:59 <gammafunk> SamB: Yeah, but you still get stabbing bonus
00:10:01 <|amethyst> Not sure when I'll get around to restarting webtiles
00:10:10 <gammafunk> SamB: Although I've nerfed that a bit
00:10:24 <gammafunk> |amethyst: We are amusting ourselves presently, so no rush :)
00:10:32 <|amethyst> It Would Be Nice If there were a way to add games to webtiles without restarting, but I guess that's come up before
00:10:48 <SamB> it really would be good to avoid the need to interfere with current sessions when doing that
00:11:02 <SamB> sshd doesn't have any trouble ...
00:11:19 <|amethyst> sshd forks for every connection
00:11:25 <SamB> yeah I know
00:12:42 <gammafunk> Is it wrong to think of |amethyst as Santa?
00:12:42 <|amethyst> it would also be nice if it weren't possible for a hanging game to wedge all of webtiles
00:12:56 <|amethyst> gammafunk:  my beard isn't grey enough
00:13:24 * SamB wonders how hard it would be for a webtiles instance to stop listening for new connections so a new one can be started concurrently
00:13:27 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2805-g83f2281 (34)
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00:15:09 <|amethyst> I'm not sure whether two webtiles instances with the same inprogress and socket directories would work properly
00:15:22 * SamB wants a gravity ring
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00:33:08 <|amethyst> hey, someone's playing boggle!
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00:38:12 <SwissStopwatch> at least a few people
00:38:31 <SwissStopwatch> hopefully elliott and I are responsible for the ability to spectate it
00:38:49 <SamB> oh, you can do that now?
00:39:48 <SwissStopwatch> well I wasn't expecting amethyst to actually add the ability to spectate robotfindskitten but he did
00:39:56 <SwissStopwatch> so clearly it was a priority here too
00:40:04 <SamB> lol
00:40:19 <SamB> because robotfindskitten is totally an actual game
00:41:06 <mnoqy> are you suggesting it isn't
00:41:34 <SamB> I'm suggesting it's an elaborate joke, yes
00:42:20 <SamB> also it's really not very playable on a wii with a standard definition screen
00:42:53 * SamB goes to bed now
00:43:07 <ChrisOelmueller> better that way, yes
00:43:33 <SwissStopwatch> maybe you'll wake up and robotfindskitten will be in your heart
00:46:31 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2805-g83f2281
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00:46:47 <Lightli> hello?
00:47:15 <ChrisOelmueller> they added dwants, Lightli
00:47:18 <ChrisOelmueller> and jumping
00:49:40 <Lightli> stop lying
00:50:10 <Lightli> making falchions usable by everyone sounds like a good buff to everyone
00:50:12 <|amethyst> Lightli:  not in trunk
00:50:13 <SwissStopwatch> what, you think this is funny
00:50:18 <SwissStopwatch> you think this is some sort of joke
00:50:33 <SwissStopwatch> more importantly they added Boggle though
00:50:36 <Lightli> amethyst: Wait, there are plans to have jumping in trunk?
00:50:36 <gammafunk> ant people and jumping cats are no laughing matter
00:50:41 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: can you maybe move Dj to that branch corner too
00:51:03 <|amethyst> Lightli:  not at the moment, but there is an experimental branch up on CSZO
00:51:12 <|amethyst> once 0.13 is released, who knows
00:51:22 <ChrisOelmueller> Lightli: i'd never be lying, you know
00:51:26 <Lightli> brb, going to re-download putty
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01:12:50 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: can you patch boggle to recognize "zin" and "xom"
01:12:55 <ChrisOelmueller> p.important
01:13:09 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  :)
01:13:19 <|amethyst> proper names are not generally allowed
01:13:52 <ChrisOelmueller> this is not a general inquiry
01:16:16 <|amethyst> :P
01:16:34 <|amethyst> wow, the bsdgames readme contains a notice that begins
01:16:56 <|amethyst> This package contains cryptographic software (caesar and rot13).  In some jurisdictions, use or distribution of these utilities may be restricted [...]
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01:17:21 <DracoOmega> rot13 is cryptographic software now? :P
01:17:34 <DracoOmega> A restricted algorithm
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01:21:37 <simmarine> any chance the dwant branch will see some of the newer trunk updates? stuff like new draining, new vorpal etc
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01:22:57 <DracoOmega> Wow, somehow I assumed it was mostly up to date with TODAY anyway, even if not liable to get further updates. Newdraining isn't exactly that new now either
01:23:04 <simmarine> yeah haha
01:23:17 <|amethyst> if pubby updates his copy of the branch I can push it to our repo, but I am not likely to do the rebasing myself
01:23:20 <simmarine> i had nergalle using deaths door (iirc she had that removed now)
01:23:32 <DracoOmega> Um, I'm pretty sure she doesn't
01:23:38 <Cheibriados> Nergalle (16o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 10 | HP: 60 | AC/EV: 9/11 | Dam: 6 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(66) | Vul: 08holy | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 804 | Sp: b.draining (3d18), spectral orcs, dispel undead (3d18), haste other, d.door | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

01:23:38 <|amethyst> %??nergalle
01:23:39 <DracoOmega> At least I have heard of no such change
01:23:46 <Cheibriados> Monster stats Crawl version: 0.13-a0-2700-g8dc4729

01:23:46 <|amethyst> %??-version
01:23:46 <simmarine> oh
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01:24:17 <buppy> simmarine: yes dwants are a month or two behind trunk. I can update them later if people like them
01:24:43 <ChrisOelmueller> dwants are great
01:24:47 <ChrisOelmueller> just their new name needs fixing
01:24:55 <DracoOmega> Well, they're not called that even in the branch
01:25:07 <DracoOmega> Fomorcids or something
01:25:10 <simmarine> theyre actually pretty funny and not as ridiculous as i thought they would be
01:25:19 <simmarine> though they definitely are pretty good right now
01:25:33 <ChrisOelmueller> DracoOmega: that's my complaint
01:25:43 <DracoOmega> I'm not actually sure what it is that they do, except something about passive stasis and self-shafting?
01:25:49 <simmarine> just acquired a triple sword and once i find a large shield i can use this manual to give me some rather dumb offense+defense power
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01:27:03 <buppy> yeah, you're doing really good. A lot better than my attempts at FoFi!
01:27:08 <DracoOmega> simmarine: That amulet almost ought to be in apropos randarts :P
01:27:23 <simmarine> haha
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01:41:31 <|amethyst> oh, "any weapon" included large rocks
01:41:35 <|amethyst> s/ded/des/
01:41:40 <elliptic> DracoOmega: also exec axe + shield, infinite digging
01:41:52 <DracoOmega> Exec axe + shield, what?
01:42:09 <elliptic> simmarine right now has triple sword + shield
01:42:13 <DracoOmega> Haha, wow
01:42:30 <simmarine> yes
01:42:32 <simmarine> notice my 30 sh
01:42:42 <DracoOmega> I hadn't been looking for a bit, but I do notice now
01:42:45 <DracoOmega> Low hp though, I guess?
01:42:47 <simmarine> digging is essentially free. all it costs is hugner
01:42:48 <simmarine> hunger
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01:51:07 <simmarine> |amethyst: i found your ghost
01:51:59 <|amethyst> simmarine:  the one where I shafted myself repeatedly until I died?
01:52:03 <simmarine> yes
01:52:05 <|amethyst> :)
01:52:06 <simmarine> it was a weakling on d:16
01:52:57 <elliptic> dfv etc
01:53:23 <simmarine> i got one to d:24
01:54:05 <buppy> oh, I just remembered the dwant branch was before an abyss segfault got fixed. Hopefully it doesn't happen on CSZO...
01:54:17 <ChrisOelmueller> i shafted one directly into anthell
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01:54:23 <ChrisOelmueller> they didn't recognize me as friend
01:55:22 <|amethyst> elliptic:  dfv?
01:55:41 <elliptic> dig for victory, nethack strategy
01:55:47 <|amethyst> ohh
01:56:20 <|amethyst> I never did that as a strategy, but I did sometimes try to see just how deep I could get with an archaeologist
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02:03:29 <Basil> Is stasis supposed to block impact damage from curare?
02:05:15 <|amethyst> I don't see why it would
02:05:15 <Sizzell> noobcanoe (L3 OpSu)  (D:3)
02:05:23 <|amethyst> !lm noobcanoe crash -log
02:05:23 <Sequell> 5. noobcanoe, XL27 HuFE, T:235979 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/noobcanoe/crash-noobcanoe-20130525-230356.txt
02:05:34 <buppy> Basil: maybe it isn't handling rPois- correctly?
02:05:46 <Basil> Perhaps.
02:05:55 <ChrisOelmueller> buppy: so this free digging...
02:05:56 <Basil> Sonja just shot me 4-6 times and nothing happened.
02:06:05 <Basil> That free digging is really nice.
02:06:20 <ChrisOelmueller> how about adding a cost to it
02:06:38 <ChrisOelmueller> like MP plus breath timer
02:06:52 <mikee_> or hp
02:06:53 <elliptic> or how about removing it
02:07:04 <buppy> I tested mp cost and it was still practically free except more annoying
02:07:31 <elliptic> also how about changing stasis to -Tele
02:07:38 <|amethyst> Basil:  looks like it works okay
02:08:03 <elliptic> Basil: AC can stop curare if you are the player iirc
02:09:11 <Sizzell> Sabaki (L4 HaWn) ASSERT(power > 0) in 'mon-cast.cc' at line 252 failed. (D:2)
02:10:17 <|amethyst> !lm noobcanoe crash -log
02:10:17 <Sequell> 6. noobcanoe, XL3 OpSu, T:2939 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/noobcanoe/crash-noobcanoe-20130825-070514.txt
02:10:23 <|amethyst> !lm sabaki crash -log
02:10:23 <Sequell> 17. Sabaki, XL4 HaWn, T:1693 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Sabaki/crash-Sabaki-20130825-070910.txt
02:11:10 <ChrisOelmueller> buppy: just breath timer then? but i'm still not convinced
02:11:21 <Sizzell> noobcanoe (L3 OpSu)  (D:3)
02:11:34 <ChrisOelmueller> and they will absolutely never exist if that free stuff isn't fixed anyways
02:11:48 <Sizzell> noobcanoe (L3 OpSu)  (D:3)
02:12:10 <Basil> Oh, didn't know that.
02:12:10 <Sizzell> noobcanoe (L3 OpSu)  (D:3)
02:12:43 <|amethyst> noobcanoe's crash is in _ms_waste_of_time
02:14:19 <|amethyst> oh, DracoOmega misplaced a parenthesis
02:15:03 <buppy> ChrisOelmueller: dunno yet. We'll see once they get some wins.
02:15:41 <buppy> hp cost is a decent idea though
02:15:50 <ChrisOelmueller> well if your goal is inclusion in crawl, you might start fixing the obvious issues right away
02:16:42 <ChrisOelmueller> e.g. the -Tele instead of stasis, which elliptic mentioned
02:16:54 <Sizzell> noobcanoe (L3 OpSu)  (D:3)
02:16:56 <buppy> I did fix the obvious issues... from my perspective.
02:16:57 <DracoOmega> |amethyst: I did?
02:17:10 <DracoOmega> |amethyst: Also, I am afraid that I am literally falling asleep over here
02:17:23 <|amethyst> DracoOmega:  I've got it, testing before I push
02:17:26 <ChrisOelmueller> buppy: that's why i'm adding the ones others see to the mix
02:17:27 <|amethyst> %git 74b6ab5
02:18:28 <Cheibriados> 07DracoOmega02 * 0.13-a0-2799-g74b6ab5: Mark sleep and hibernation as useless against targets inherantly immune to sleep 10(9 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=74b6ab59c7dd
02:18:28 <|amethyst> DracoOmega:  also it looks like it would make monsters not fire any of the hexes at unsleepable players
02:19:05 <|amethyst> (!foe->can_sleep() is outside the disjunction that contains !foe)
02:19:13 <DracoOmega> Oh dear, oops? =/
02:19:45 <|amethyst> no big deal; I've done similar
02:21:17 <buppy> ChrisOelmueller: I'll take note and we'll see how they can be improved
02:21:43 <DracoOmega> In any case, I must go and sleep now
02:21:49 <DracoOmega> Night!
02:21:51 <|amethyst> night
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02:22:43 <Sizzell> DarkMoon (L16 DEWz) ERROR in 'spl-util.cc' at line 894: ASSERT failed: spell of 11323228 out of range 0 (0) .. NUM_SPELLS (260) (Shoals:3)
02:23:26 <|amethyst> !lm DarkMoon crash -log
02:23:26 <Sequell> 1. DarkMoon, XL16 DEWz, T:35109 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/DarkMoon/crash-DarkMoon-20130825-072243.txt
02:23:52 <|amethyst> hm, that one involves monster descriptions
02:24:51 <ChrisOelmueller> nice spell id
02:28:15 <ChrisOelmueller> hmm how do faun and satyr relate, for crawl genus purposes?
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02:29:27 <|amethyst> hm, xv on a siren crashes reliably
02:29:59 <|amethyst> oh, they're M_SPELLCASTER with no spells but also not randomised spells
02:33:32 <Lightli> yeah, dwants or formids would be amazing if they only had -tele rather than perma-stasis
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02:34:54 <ChrisOelmueller> also why does MONS_GNOME still exist - it's not even used as genus
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02:35:53 <ChrisOelmueller> well, grated community thought it funny to place one, so that qualifies as unused
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02:46:34 <|amethyst> Sabaki's crash is a power-zero spell
02:47:22 <|amethyst> possibly by a drained jessica
02:49:28 <|amethyst> oh, yes... she was drained to 0 HD it seems
02:50:50 <Lightli> how can monsters be drained to 0 HD and live
02:50:58 <Lightli> while players who get drained below level 1 die
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02:53:38 <SwissStopwatch> well good thing draining changed right
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02:59:27 <ChrisOelmueller> what does draining monsters do now
02:59:44 <|amethyst> I didn't think that changed
02:59:55 <ChrisOelmueller> so....... is it INCONSISTENT...........
03:00:03 <ChrisOelmueller> because if so
03:00:04 <ChrisOelmueller> it should be reverted
03:01:33 <SwissStopwatch> well can you actually die now that skilldraining is what happens
03:01:51 <ChrisOelmueller> sorry i don't care about arguments
03:01:59 <ChrisOelmueller> it's the inconsistency that really gets me
03:05:47 <Ruffell> tewe (L23 MfDK)  (D:27)
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03:06:52 <|amethyst> !lm tewe crash -log
03:06:53 <Sequell> 3. tewe, XL23 MfDK, T:78625 (milestone): http://rl.heh.fi/morgue/tewe/crash-tewe-20130825-080546.txt
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03:12:27 <Ruffell> tewe (L23 MfDK)  (D:27)
03:12:33 <|amethyst> hm actually it did change, but only in that it now disregards power
03:13:04 <|amethyst> (not spell power)
03:13:12 <Sizzell> VengefulCarrot (L9 CeTm) ASSERT(themonst) in 'monster.cc' at line 6011 failed. (D:9)
03:13:50 <|amethyst> that's the constriction one that enigmoo had earlier
03:13:57 <|amethyst> !lm VengefulCarrot crash -log
03:13:57 <Sequell> 3. VengefulCarrot, XL9 CeTm, T:9713 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/VengefulCarrot/crash-VengefulCarrot-20130825-081311.txt
03:14:17 <|amethyst> also involves S2S
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03:18:46 <|amethyst> hm... to prevent draining monsters below 1 HD, or to kill them when it happens
03:19:28 <ChrisOelmueller> have a coinflip decide
03:19:34 <ChrisOelmueller> the only true way
03:22:40 <|amethyst> also, I wonder if there is any other situation that could lead to an HD 0 monster
03:22:55 <Sabaki> polymorph?
03:23:57 <Cheibriados> Crash with SIGBUS <https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7512> by croikle
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03:28:03 <|amethyst> doesn't look like polymorph will do it
03:30:18 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.13-a0-2806-g1349002: Don't crash when foeless monsters consider casting hexes (#7512) 10(68 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1349002da3a8
03:30:18 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.13-a0-2807-g9c95cb4: Don't crash when doing xv on a siren. 10(36 minutes ago, 1 file, 62+ 57-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9c95cb4128df
03:30:18 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.13-a0-2808-gda3a3b1: Don't drain monsters to 0 HD. 10(5 minutes ago, 2 files, 9+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=da3a3b125144
03:31:38 <Lightli> yay
03:31:38 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2808-gda3a3b1 (34)
03:33:49 <|amethyst> hm... now to investigate the s2s thing
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03:36:44 <|amethyst> hm, since they have fake abjuration they time out with KILL_MISC instead of KILL_{DISMISSED,RESET}
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03:41:54 <Ruffell> Unstable branch on rl.heh.fi updated to: 0.13-a0-2808-gda3a3b1 (34)
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03:46:22 <Lantell> Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.13-a0-2808-gda3a3b1 (34)
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04:01:17 <|amethyst> I don't think I'm going to be able to fix (or even properly diagnose) the constriction crash tonight
04:01:41 <|amethyst> time for sleep
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04:14:45 <Gretell> nht (L9 DsHu)  (D:8)
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04:31:08 <Cheibriados> Crash on autoexplore <https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7513> by nht
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05:20:44 <Sizzell> enigmoo (L6 GrTm) ASSERT(themonst) in 'monster.cc' at line 6012 failed. (D:4)
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10:00:45 <Sizzell> enigmoo (L6 GrTm) ASSERT(themonst) in 'monster.cc' at line 6012 failed. (D:4)
10:02:27 <Sizzell> enigmoo (L6 GrTm) ASSERT(themonst) in 'monster.cc' at line 6012 failed. (D:4)
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10:16:22 <|amethyst> I wish I knew how to reproduce the state that causes that crash
10:16:53 <|amethyst> I've tried changing levels several times while a S2S ball python is constricting a monster
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10:36:36 <Sizzell> enigmoo (L6 GrTm) ASSERT(themonst) in 'monster.cc' at line 6012 failed. (D:4)
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11:14:18 <Gretell> jeanjacques (L17 DjEn)  (Vaults:3)
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11:14:51 <Gretell> jeanjacques (L17 DjEn)  (Vaults:3)
11:15:01 <|amethyst> !lm jeanjacques crash -log
11:15:01 <Sequell> 20. jeanjacques, XL17 DjEn, T:40732 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/jeanjacques/crash-jeanjacques-20130825-161412.txt
11:15:23 <jeanjacques> pressing 5 is punished with a crash
11:15:35 <|amethyst> jeanjacques:  that crash is fixed in trunk but CDO won't update for another 12 or 13 hours
11:15:45 <jeanjacques> what do i have to avoid?
11:16:21 <|amethyst> something like: having a monster with hexes on the level and willing to cast, but unaware of you
11:16:41 <|amethyst> it happens when a monster with no foe and a hex spell tries to see whether it's worthwhile to cast it
11:17:30 <|amethyst> where "hex" includes pain
11:18:24 <jeanjacques> diving between floors wth hatches and leaving the vault sentinels confused is probably the issue
11:21:23 <|amethyst> possibly
11:21:42 <|amethyst> kilobyte and Napkin are capable of updating CDO; I am not
11:21:52 <|amethyst> so if one of them happens to be around
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11:39:47 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2808-gda3a3b1 (34)
11:48:36 <elliptic> looks like one of them was around :)
11:48:48 <|amethyst> yay, thank you whoever did that
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12:06:46 <Gretell> jeanjacques (L18 DjEn)  (D:26)
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12:07:03 <|amethyst> !lg jeanjacques crash -log
12:07:03 <Sequell> No keyword 'crash'
12:07:08 <|amethyst> !lm jeanjacques crash -log
12:07:08 <Sequell> 22. jeanjacques, XL18 DjEn, T:47397 (milestone): http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/jeanjacques/crash-jeanjacques-20130825-170638.txt
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12:07:14 <jeanjacques> i didnt actually upgrade yet
12:07:20 <|amethyst> jeanjacques: aha :)
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12:17:35 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.13-a0-2808-gda3a3b1 (34)
12:21:49 <|amethyst> oh, I thought I had upgraded CAO; I guess not :)
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13:27:27 <simmarine> i had a good formicid game going last night. saved to play today and now its gone?
13:27:35 <simmarine> oh nevermind wrong, account
13:27:50 <simmarine> oops
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14:13:40 <Sizzell> enigmoo (L6 GrTm) ASSERT(themonst) in 'monster.cc' at line 6012 failed. (D:4)
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15:38:28 <bh> hi all
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15:38:35 <bh> !seen dpeg
15:38:36 <Henzell> I last saw dpeg at Sun Aug 25 01:24:09 2013 UTC (19h 14m 27s ago) quitting with message 'Quit: sleep'.
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15:39:09 <Guest93711> er...
15:39:25 <Guest93711> derp
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15:41:12 <bh> much better
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16:02:24 <|amethyst> !tell buppy yeah, it's because it's not possible to add a new game to webtiles without restarting (and hanging up active connections).  It saves so shouldn't lose data, but it's still kind of disruptive
16:02:26 <Henzell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let buppy know.
16:03:15 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: how about disabling any race that's not dwant in dwant branch?
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16:03:55 <ChrisOelmueller> avoiding folks playing in that branch accidentally
16:04:33 <|amethyst> it's kind of hard to accidentally get there
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16:05:07 <ChrisOelmueller> well, you could of course be trying to play the other great experimental stuff
16:05:17 <ChrisOelmueller> but also it hints at what's new there
16:05:17 <bh> dwants are a thing, huh?
16:05:24 <bh> |amethyst: feel free to pull destruction branch
16:05:55 <|amethyst> besides, someone might want to see how <race X> fares against formicid monsters
16:06:08 <bh> I'd be supportive of moving that destruction effect to volcano/ice cave, and perhaps as hell effects, but not so much in general
16:06:19 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: ...
16:06:34 <|amethyst> bh:  need to figure out a good way to prevent new games without disabling it entirely
16:07:04 <|amethyst> I guess maybe I shouldn't worry about killing in-progress games in an experimental branch :)
16:07:45 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  devs for example
16:07:58 <kilobyte> !arena ChrosOelmueller v 5 formicid, 3 formicid drone, formicid venom mage
16:08:11 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: can't those spawn the monsters anyways
16:08:11 <bh> |amethyst: if you made a crawl server image in a box, it would be the best thing ever :D
16:08:29 <ChrisOelmueller> also fixing up their race while we're at it
16:08:46 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  not in trunk
16:09:18 <|amethyst> bh:  hmm
16:09:30 <kilobyte> are all the steps documented?
16:09:40 <|amethyst> bh:  No time for it any time soon, but the server setup guide is more complete than it once was
16:09:45 <|amethyst> not all of them
16:09:49 <|amethyst> but most
16:09:59 <|amethyst> towards the end it gets a bit fuzzy :)
16:10:13 <gammafunk> |amethyst: In the jump branch, I think it might be good to give all boot wearing species boots of jumping at start for testing purposes.  Otherwise you have to use Fe
16:10:27 <ChrisOelmueller> oh hey kilobyte, question ahead
16:10:29 <|amethyst> though I did try to remember to put in issues that TZer0 and joosa pointed out
16:10:32 <bh> ??jumping
16:10:33 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled jumping in my learndb.
16:10:37 <gammafunk> ??jump
16:10:38 <Henzell> jump attack[1/2]: A new experimental branch on CSZO.  Adds a jump attack ability that attacks a target at range, after choosing a random, safe landing site adjacent to the monster and moving the player there.  Attacks for 120% damage (with any relevant stabbing bonus, but reduced a bit).
16:11:12 <gammafunk> |amethyst: I can make that commit and push it to my branch, if you think it's not a bad idea
16:11:17 <kilobyte> why are these two separate branches?
16:11:25 <|amethyst> hm, maybe, since the branch would probably be rebased (so that commit could be removed) if it does go to trunk
16:11:50 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  in case we want to merge one and not the other
16:12:12 <ChrisOelmueller> kilobyte: i'm renaming MONS_DRAGON the monster to MONS_FIRE_DRAGON (only in-code), keeping MONS_DRAGON as D genus. do you remember whether that was also considered bad for some reason in 4d5c11a30?
16:12:12 <kilobyte> yeah, I mean on the server
16:12:46 <ChrisOelmueller> also i think they should be named "fire dragon" in any case, but if that keeps the change from existing i'll at least split it off
16:12:56 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  experimental branches really are branches in the git sense
16:13:49 <bh> %git 4d5c11a30
16:13:50 <Cheibriados> 07kilobyte02 * 0.10-a0-1368-g4d5c11a: Rename dragon armour to "fire dragon armour".  Just the item, not monster. 10(1 year, 10 months ago, 16 files, 53+ 52-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4d5c11a30496
16:13:56 <kilobyte> ChrisOelmueller: not sure what would be the point.  They're already of the genus "dragon", what's wrong with this?
16:13:57 <|amethyst> I guess if someone wants to make a jumping_dwants merge for CSZO purposes that would work, but that would increase the difficulty of applying bug fixes
16:15:36 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller: Having two monsters with the same name probably wouldn't work very well
16:15:49 <ChrisOelmueller> kilobyte: some code uses DRAGON as genus, other code uses it as monster. also i'm reviewing the other changes Eronarn did, so i'm changing quite some of those relations
16:16:15 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: yeah i'm currently using the genus one with name "D" instead of "dragon" to avoid that
16:16:21 <|amethyst> why?
16:16:33 <|amethyst> are you seperating all genera from real monsters?
16:16:35 <kilobyte> ChrisOelmueller: there is exactly one case where you can't choose an arbitrary member of a genus: many foos coming into view
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16:16:55 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: some of them, yes
16:17:01 <kilobyte> which is why we currently have a "giant" or such genus-only monster
16:17:15 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  what technical issues are solved by doing that with dragons?
16:17:20 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  code searchability?
16:17:34 <kilobyte> a "dragon" genus works just as well as an "orc" genus
16:17:39 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  also, "4 Dragons come into view" looks weird
16:17:44 <ChrisOelmueller> more like readability but sure
16:18:58 <kilobyte> what's so unreadable in a "dragon" genus?
16:19:00 <|amethyst> I agree with kilobyte that the only reason to have a separate monster for the genus is if none of the representatives have a generic enough name
16:19:25 <kilobyte> on the other hand, having two monsters with the same name is possible but requires hacks, which goes against readability
16:19:29 <ChrisOelmueller> then i'll just keep both those in one commit
16:19:33 <|amethyst> I would suspect that most places that use MONS_DRAGON to refer to the genus also have a function name with the word "genus" nearby
16:19:34 <kilobyte> like, "Mara" or "rakshasa"
16:19:58 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  "those" = that and a real rename to "fire dragon"?  That makes sense I think
16:20:12 <ChrisOelmueller> yep
16:20:18 <kilobyte> most genera have a monster same as their name, so dragons are a rule rather than an exception
16:20:42 <ChrisOelmueller> i'm kind of bending that rule then :-)
16:20:43 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  are you re-adding MONS_IMP ?
16:20:49 <ChrisOelmueller> yes
16:20:56 <|amethyst> I approve of that
16:22:21 <ChrisOelmueller> not-final list, http://bpaste.net/show/3jdZKprzFg4UPqjicuX1/
16:22:21 <|amethyst> M_CANT_SPAWN of course
16:22:35 <ChrisOelmueller> all of those are except deep_elf, yes
16:22:45 <bh> thank god. MONS_IMP was a good idea, MON_RANDOM_DEMON_SHIT was ill conceived
16:22:54 <|amethyst> I don't agree with spectral weapon/spectral thing
16:23:00 <ChrisOelmueller> of course some of those commits will be controversial, yes
16:23:24 <bh> I'd be very hesitant about genus'ing electric eels into 'fish'
16:23:25 <ChrisOelmueller> will just have to start with the ones most people agree with and work from there
16:23:32 <|amethyst> bh:  why?
16:23:36 <|amethyst> oh
16:23:44 <|amethyst> "five fish come into view"
16:23:45 <bh> "Two fish come into view" -- ZAP!
16:24:03 <|amethyst> it is still separate in the monster list and has a different colour
16:24:17 <|amethyst> it's no different from orcs and orc high priests
16:24:21 <bh> do travel stoppers work off "come into view"?
16:24:40 <ChrisOelmueller> mhm there's fun to be had there, i see
16:24:54 <|amethyst> bh:  monsters coming into view stops travel by default, yes
16:25:14 <bh> |amethyst: erm, I mean for forcing '*** MORE ***'
16:25:15 <|amethyst> bh:  the options for avoiding that for specific monsters use regexps on the monster names, not genera
16:25:23 <bh> ah
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16:25:41 <|amethyst> ah, force_more only sees the message, so would be a problem
16:26:01 <|amethyst> still, I don't think that's justification for separate genera
16:26:05 <ChrisOelmueller> for some of those i just applied the changes by Eronarn where i didn't particularly agree with them, so i'd like to have a vote too
16:26:11 <bh> I agree. That's a reason for making force_more better
16:26:12 <ChrisOelmueller> for instance i didn't like the boggart change
16:26:51 <bh> ??boggart
16:26:52 <Henzell> boggart[1/7]: Very weak by themselves until they start summoning, at which point they can be extremely dangerous. Can instantly summon 8 yaktaurs or slime creatures. They have very low HP and MR, so zapping or casting disintegration, fireball, paralyze, enslave, confusion, and polymorph are all safe options.
16:26:53 <ChrisOelmueller> and also making tengu "bird" species is not justified with the amount of new tengu that exist "now"
16:27:11 <ChrisOelmueller> oh i didn't include that one in the list because it's on the next page, nice
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16:27:16 <|amethyst> oh
16:27:17 <bh> tengu are unlike ravens and harpies
16:27:21 <|amethyst> no, tengu should not be "birds"
16:27:28 <|amethyst> any more than they should be "humans"
16:27:42 <ChrisOelmueller> heh, it also did put halflings as humans
16:27:54 <ChrisOelmueller> abstaining from that for now :o
16:28:04 <|amethyst> that used to be the case
16:28:16 <bh> crawl: where we don't just paint the bikeshed, we add skylights.
16:28:20 <|amethyst> %git 931ceae9
16:28:20 <Cheibriados> 07dolorous02 * 0.11-a0-1965-g931ceae: Properly set halfling genus to MONS_HALFLING. 10(1 year, 3 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=931ceae9aba8
16:28:31 <ChrisOelmueller> yes, i'm reverting some of dolorous' changes
16:28:49 <ChrisOelmueller> i.e. this, the ancient champion ones, the skulls as skeletons, others exist
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16:30:38 <|amethyst> I don't like skulls as skeletons
16:30:44 <|amethyst> "a skull is a skeleton"
16:30:47 <|amethyst> that is a false statement
16:31:09 <|amethyst> "an ancient champion is a skeletal warrior"  --- that is fine
16:31:24 <gammafunk> bh: I was talking about abyssal uniques with other devs/players, and it was pointed out that abyss isn't a great place for uniques
16:31:37 <ChrisOelmueller> right. the point of my work here is to split Eronarn's into bite-sized chunks that can be discussed then
16:31:43 <ChrisOelmueller> some of them making the cut, some not making it
16:31:44 <bh> gammafunk: since it's too unpredictable and you might get whisked away?
16:31:59 <gammafunk> bh: Since the main motivation for killing a unique is to clear a floor so you can move on, whereas in abyss you're trying to run away or just run to stairs
16:32:05 <ChrisOelmueller> of course i'll have formed my own opinion about some, so shooting the messenger just a bit is fine
16:32:05 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  that sounds reasonable
16:32:12 <gammafunk> yeah I suppose the shifting is also a factor
16:32:46 <ChrisOelmueller> you can't do much work from commits like https://github.com/Eronarn/Crawling-Chaos/commit/978788c6b5c4cc2cdb41e35afc5e809d20b1f216 after all
16:32:50 <ChrisOelmueller> (warning huge)
16:33:06 <gammafunk> dpeg had some cute ideas about how you could motivate the "xom's teddy bear unique" (e.g. give the player good xom attention for some duration after you kill it)
16:33:51 <gammafunk> but I'm wondering if you still think it's worth it to pursue abyssal uniques
16:33:54 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  yeah, something similar (but not as huge) is part of the reason the LO temperature changes aren't in trunk
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16:34:36 <ChrisOelmueller> maybe you should try and find someone caring about those as i do with genera/species to split it too, heh
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16:36:07 <ChrisOelmueller> oh i also have the changes to uniques he proposed
16:36:27 <kilobyte> bh: uniques in the Abyss are really clingy, so it's actually a good place for one
16:36:55 <ChrisOelmueller> i.e. Maurice: Halfling - Jessica: High Elf - Harold: Tengu - Norris: Demigod
16:37:11 <ChrisOelmueller> (harold color changed in the process due to sojobo)
16:37:21 <kilobyte> about genera: I kind of think we should remove most if not all genus-only monsters and do it as a string mapping
16:37:21 <bh> kilobyte: interesting, I wasn't familiar with their mechanics
16:37:30 <kilobyte> would also fix bugs with renames
16:38:23 <gammafunk> kilobyte: You think an abyssal unique is an ok idea?
16:39:03 <Zannick> bh, the only abyss creature that can cast you into the abyss inside the abyss
16:39:04 <kilobyte> bh: might be good to cut the chance for other uniques to respawn in the Abyss
16:39:16 <kilobyte> it's currently 50% on every shift
16:39:23 <bh> Zannick: wut...?
16:39:33 <Zannick> an abyssal unique! name it bh :P
16:39:38 <bh> :P
16:39:46 <gammafunk> Zannick: that would be pretty appropriate
16:39:47 <Eronarn> ChrisOelmueller: fwiw i only pushed it like that because someone wanted to see it
16:39:49 <bh> I would love to !abyss whoever it was that stole my newspaper.
16:40:04 <gammafunk> !send bh The New York Times
16:40:05 <Henzell> Sending The New York Times to bh.
16:40:06 <Eronarn> the branch was highly experimental
16:40:19 <Eronarn> mostly to figure out which uniques we should reassign
16:40:22 <Eronarn> that's where that list came from
16:40:28 <bh> gammafunk: seriously. I think I'm the only person in the building who subscribes grr.
16:41:01 <gammafunk> bh: I have a digital susbscription at least
16:41:05 <ChrisOelmueller> Eronarn: i wouldn't have invested work if not agreeing with at least some parts
16:41:16 <Eronarn> i'm surprised anyone but me remembered it!
16:41:38 <Cheibriados> 03pubby02 {kilobyte} 07* 0.13-a0-2809-g04436d7: Prevent wanderers from wielding 2h + shield. 10(8 weeks ago, 2 files, 25+ 18-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=04436d723803
16:41:38 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte02 07* 0.13-a0-2810-g19a7021: Store the summoner in struct monster. 10(21 hours ago, 4 files, 10+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=19a70210ad1b
16:41:38 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte02 07* 0.13-a0-2811-g2c4599a: Store battlesphere's owner in monster.summoner. 10(21 hours ago, 2 files, 10+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2c4599aed998
16:41:38 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte02 07* 0.13-a0-2812-g0d63de4: Store IOOD's caster in monster.summoner. 10(21 hours ago, 2 files, 6+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0d63de4f1ac2
16:41:38 <Cheibriados> 03kilobyte02 07* 0.13-a0-2813-g0b72a8e: Store spectral weapon's owner in monster.summoner. 10(20 hours ago, 4 files, 9+ 11-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=0b72a8e84ca8
16:41:44 <Eronarn> (i didn't remember it until I started getting highlighted a ton)
16:41:49 <ChrisOelmueller> Eronarn: the current graph is at http://6g6.eu/sih0-eronarn.png by the way
16:43:02 <bh> whoa. That's shameful. I have the highest level poison death
16:43:11 <bh> !lg . pois max=xl
16:43:12 <Sequell> 47. bh the Severer (L20 HOPr), worshipper of Beogh, succumbed to poison on Snake:5 on 2009-08-20 15:03:00, with 204756 points after 55569 turns and 5:06:18.
16:43:13 <Eronarn> poor apis, off by itself
16:43:15 <bh> !lg . pois max=xl -log
16:43:16 <Sequell> 47. bh, XL20 HOPr, T:55569: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/bh/morgue-bh-20090820-150300.txt
16:43:24 <Eronarn> hmm weird
16:43:25 <elliptic> !hs * ktyp=pois
16:43:26 <Sequell> 112288. partyhat the Talismancer (L27 HEMo), worshipper of Makhleb, succumbed to a Green Death's bolt of poison in Pandemonium on 2012-11-26 04:02:06, with 1235508 points after 164403 turns and 18:03:36.
16:43:27 <Eronarn> what kind of elf is fannar?
16:43:31 <elliptic> bh: that's your highest level poison death
16:43:35 <Zannick> !lg * max=l pois
16:43:36 <Sequell> Unknown field: l
16:43:36 <|amethyst> Eronarn:  deep
16:43:39 <Zannick> !lg * max=lvl pois
16:43:39 <bh> oops
16:43:40 <Sequell> 112288. hayenne the Enchanter (L21 SpEn), worshipper of Makhleb, succumbed to poison on D:27 on 2009-04-23 20:40:23, with 267431 points after 80399 turns and 9:17:56.
16:43:42 <ChrisOelmueller> really?
16:43:47 <elliptic> Zannick: not lvl
16:43:48 <Eronarn> |amethyst: well he's not that way on the chart
16:43:49 <elliptic> xl
16:43:51 <bh> elliptic: right, bad syntax
16:43:52 <gammafunk> bh: get good
16:43:53 <Zannick> !lg * max=place pois
16:43:54 <Sequell> 112288. Disco the Blademaster (L27 DsAs), worshipper of Makhleb, succumbed to a Green Death's poison arrow on Zot:5 (hall_of_Zot) on 2010-07-02 17:15:01, with 592479 points after 116417 turns and 12:01:43.
16:43:55 <ChrisOelmueller> i couldn't find a reference to that in the book that is his description
16:44:09 <Zannick> elliptic: was trying for place, thanks though
16:44:11 <bh> ??lg
16:44:12 <Henzell> listgame[1/6]: !lg command displays info about past games. The manual is available here: http://github.com/greensnark/dcss_henzell/raw/master/docs/listgame.txt
16:44:23 <ChrisOelmueller> also can somebody cut that description already...
16:44:33 <Eronarn> should ancient zymes be horrors rather than abominations?
16:45:01 <ChrisOelmueller> for the new abyssal stuff i put those two into horrors because i don't think they're sufficiently fleshy
16:45:12 <|amethyst> I'm not sure why MONS_ELF needs to exist
16:45:26 <bh> how do you get suicides from !lg?
16:45:26 <|amethyst> well
16:45:30 <|amethyst> I guess because of players
16:45:31 <kilobyte> |amethyst: genus
16:45:35 <|amethyst> yeah
16:45:42 <|amethyst> the species should be deep elf though
16:45:50 <|amethyst> but then we'd need two dummy monsters
16:45:59 <ChrisOelmueller> Eronarn: i.e. starcursed mass is a similar case
16:46:01 <|amethyst> (or one with kilobyte's suggestion)
16:46:15 <kilobyte> |amethyst: also, players are not all deep elves
16:46:19 <Eronarn> anyways cool, i think the unique changes will be more visible
16:46:29 <Eronarn> but it's good to revisit stuff like that
16:46:31 <bh> Eronarn: I'm in favor of horrors. Abominations are undead
16:46:33 <Eronarn> lots of weird categorizations in place currently
16:46:36 <Cheibriados> ancient zyme (03x) | Spd: 10 | HD: 8 | HP: 38-66 | AC/EV: 6/6 | Dam: 1605(drain strength), 1605(drain dexterity) | 11non-living, see invisible, lev | Res: 06magic(53), 03poison, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | XP: 327 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal.

16:46:36 <bh> %??ancient zyme
16:46:38 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: right now there's HIGH_ELF genus too due to jessica changing
16:46:42 <Eronarn> bh: right that was my thought
16:46:44 <Cheibriados> large abomination (04X) | Spd: 6-12 | HD: 11 | HP: 32-67 | AC/EV: 0/0 | Dam: 40 | 07undead, evil | Res: 06magic(102), 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 726 | Sz: Big | Int: plant.

16:46:44 <bh> %??large abomination
16:46:45 <ChrisOelmueller> so i'd like cutting ELF
16:46:45 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  yeah, the genus makes sense now that I think about it more
16:46:53 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  that shouldn't be a genus
16:46:54 <kilobyte> bh: abominations are demons too
16:46:58 <|amethyst> all elfs should be the same genus
16:47:09 <ChrisOelmueller> oh, species of course
16:47:15 <ChrisOelmueller> now i'm getting confused myself already
16:47:18 <ChrisOelmueller> sorry!
16:47:30 <|amethyst> MONS_ELF is necessary as kilobyte points out because of players
16:47:51 <|amethyst> I guess not strictly necessary in that we could add special-case code like we do for merfolk/mermaids
16:48:07 <ChrisOelmueller> i gave ELF the CANT_SPAWN in favor of deep elves
16:48:10 <kilobyte> also, Fannar, Dowan and Duvessa are regular elves rather than deep ones
16:48:35 <ChrisOelmueller> ??duvessa
16:48:36 <Henzell> duvessa[1/4]: Early deep elf unique fighter (no spells), has the same kit as a deep elf fighter. Shows up with her brother, {Dowan}. Will go berserk if you kill Dowan in her sight, or the next time she sees you otherwise. Will not follow you across stairs without Dowan, unless you've killed him.
16:48:44 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  so are deep elf <class>
16:48:44 <ChrisOelmueller> ??dowan
16:48:45 <Henzell> dowan[1/4]: Early deep elf unique caster. Casts throw frost, throw flame, haste, corona and minor healing. Shows up with his sister, {Duvessa}. Will find "hidden reserves of power" when Duvessa dies, be hasted, and replace his conjurations with throw icicle, stone arrow, corona with blink.
16:49:11 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  in flavour Fannar is a deep elf
16:49:15 <kilobyte> !learn edit duvessa[1] s/Early deep/Early/
16:49:16 <Henzell> duvessa[1/4]: Early elf unique fighter (no spells), has the same kit as a deep elf fighter. Shows up with her brother, {Dowan}. Will go berserk if you kill Dowan in her sight, or the next time she sees you otherwise. Will not follow you across stairs without Dowan, unless you've killed him.
16:49:26 <kilobyte> |amethyst: "Elven Halls" so yeah
16:50:29 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  I think they *should* belong to an actual species, it's just that those don't exist
16:50:39 <|amethyst> high or deep I'm indifferent to
16:50:49 <kilobyte> I kind of wonder if it makes sense to have a "deep elf" _species_
16:51:00 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  that's what I was suggesting :)
16:51:10 <ChrisOelmueller> i added that.
16:51:14 <kilobyte> it'd be kind of like having a "causasian human" and "black human" specie
16:51:40 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  We don't know how far diverged they are
16:51:53 <kilobyte> ie, these kinds sound more like a race rather than a species to me.  Not a big difference, but in fantasy elf kinds can interbreed.
16:51:57 <bh> that would make sense if crawl was a game about the heritable bits of immunology
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16:52:04 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  it might be more like having a "human" and "neanderthal" species
16:52:33 <|amethyst> kilobyte: ( without the temporal implications)
16:52:52 <bh> |amethyst: though the neandertal researchers tend to claim that we probably couldn't distinguish a human from a neandertal if we saw them walking down the street
16:52:58 <ChrisOelmueller> okay, high or deep for dowan+duvessa? if jessica goes to high, 3 vs. 1 on deep vs. high should work better than 2/2
16:53:18 <bh> ChrisOelmueller: I've assumed they were high elves, since they appear outside of Elf
16:53:27 <kilobyte> putting this another way: where does the species matter?  I can't really recall any cases other than TSO/Elyvilon food restrictions here.
16:53:38 <ChrisOelmueller> bh: but so does fannar
16:54:00 <bh> kilobyte: elf-slaying weapons ;)
16:54:09 <kilobyte> bh: that's genus not species
16:54:34 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  species doesn't matter for that, genus does
16:54:35 <ChrisOelmueller> bh: (and some deep elves in certain vaults do too)
16:54:41 <kilobyte> |amethyst: heh, even more
16:55:06 <kilobyte> so, what would such a change even get us, besides bloating the list of monsters?
16:55:34 <|amethyst> corpses and reanimation
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16:55:43 <|amethyst> "deep elf zombie of Fannar"
16:55:56 <|amethyst> or does that use genus too?
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16:56:21 <|amethyst> ah, yes, that one is species
16:56:42 <bh> we could just remove elves entirely :)
16:57:10 <ChrisOelmueller> why does the concept of genus/species exist at all if the goal is a "not bloated" list of something
16:57:15 <kilobyte> just "elf zombie" sounds a tiny notch better to me
16:57:30 <ChrisOelmueller> granted maybe i just hate the sound of "bloat" but i don't think it's an argument for or against anything
16:58:32 <|amethyst> also polymorph
16:58:44 <|amethyst> not that that's anything but cosmetic
16:59:05 <gammafunk> |amethyst: I gave all boot-wearable species boots of jumping for testing purposes.  The jump_attack branch at git://gitorious.org/~gammafunk/crawl/crawl-gammafunk.git is updated
16:59:19 <ChrisOelmueller> demon tiers for message purposes is something i'd care about
17:00:17 <ChrisOelmueller> also "fire dragon" as luck has it :<
17:00:57 <bh> ChrisOelmueller: we had this discussion a few weeks back when I wrote my dumb demon patch. They don't fit cleanly into genuses
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17:03:55 <gammafunk> right, I was trying to recall that discussion.  Classifying demons is pretty hard
17:04:00 <ChrisOelmueller> bh: what's wrong with the glyphs as i listed above?
17:04:22 <ChrisOelmueller> bottom of http://bpaste.net/show/3jdZKprzFg4UPqjicuX1/
17:05:01 <bh> devil v. demon?
17:05:09 <ChrisOelmueller> also what patch is that
17:05:31 <ChrisOelmueller> ice devil (3) A man-sized demon covered in glittering ice.
17:06:50 <bh> %git f2d916f5364
17:06:51 <Cheibriados> 07bh02 * 0.13-a0-2131-gf2d916f: Demonic Taxonomy 10(8 weeks ago, 2 files, 33+ 28-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f2d916f53646
17:07:20 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller: imps and executioners are also listed as "demons" there
17:07:42 <ChrisOelmueller> i was just implying "devil v. demon" sounded weird to me
17:08:06 <|amethyst> "demon" is really an entire holiness so I don't think is correct for a genus
17:08:33 <ChrisOelmueller> "common demon" sounds just bad though
17:08:39 <ChrisOelmueller> so does "lesser demon"
17:08:43 <|amethyst> also
17:08:47 <|amethyst> red devil
17:08:49 <|amethyst> A larger cousin of the common imp,...
17:10:37 <ChrisOelmueller> i think arbitrary line-drawing without looking at the flavor much kinda works for demons
17:10:55 <ChrisOelmueller> tiers 3 and 4 are not differentiated enough in my opinion to warrant two different groups
17:11:11 <ChrisOelmueller> unlike, say, imps and 2 v.s 1
17:11:31 <bh> sixfy's are dangerous, everything else is sort of "Oh a 3 or a 4"
17:11:45 <ChrisOelmueller> well this isn't about danger level per se
17:11:53 <ChrisOelmueller> also sixfirhies are 6
17:11:53 <ChrisOelmueller> so
17:14:25 <|amethyst> hm
17:14:31 <|amethyst> should we rename "Porkalator"?
17:14:38 <|amethyst> now that monster spell names are visible to players?
17:14:55 <BlastHardcheese> no
17:14:56 <ChrisOelmueller> "pig form other"...
17:15:01 <BlastHardcheese> if you do I will fight you
17:15:05 <ChrisOelmueller> no is a good answer
17:15:20 <ChrisOelmueller> also that makes folks maybe use ?/ and learn about what it can do
17:15:22 <|amethyst> "Empiggen"
17:15:32 <gammafunk> haha
17:15:42 <gammafunk> Baconform
17:16:22 <simmarine> oh wow you can see the spells
17:16:23 <simmarine> cool
17:16:37 <ChrisOelmueller> can dwants do that??
17:16:42 <simmarine> probably not
17:16:47 <ChrisOelmueller> oh you're not playing dwant
17:16:50 <simmarine> no
17:16:50 <ChrisOelmueller> nevermind
17:17:02 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  not unless someone rebases it onto or merges in latest trunk
17:17:10 <ChrisOelmueller> yea i was wondering whether that had happened
17:17:29 <ChrisOelmueller> i'm occupied with two other large branches unfortunately
17:17:48 <ChrisOelmueller> and also with dwant author not being very cooperative, almost as if their goal was not to actually make something that works
17:20:18 <bh> then reject it until he can bring it up to snuff?
17:21:40 <ChrisOelmueller> well the plus side is that apparently 0.13 also did some good stuff that's missing
17:21:53 <ChrisOelmueller> but disabling forest and Dj can't be that hard, can it
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17:22:39 <ChrisOelmueller> even testing Dj is not accomplishing anything so i'm really unsure why it's in trunk instead of the experimental branch section
17:23:36 <bh> IMO Dj can't be balanced without significant changes
17:24:01 <ChrisOelmueller> that's the point, doing those in master just means messing with all kinds of compatibility issues
17:24:11 <|amethyst> I thought about putting the lava_djinn branch up as experimental, but the consensus seemed to be that it would get very little testing that way
17:24:13 <ChrisOelmueller> also the very concept doesn't work, so balancing it will still be unfun
17:24:32 <ChrisOelmueller> guess i'm asking why Dj needs more testing
17:24:47 <ChrisOelmueller> i.e. more than it would get in experimental
17:24:53 <bh> The biggest problem with Dj is the absence of a hunger clock, even beyond Ep imbalances
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17:25:45 <|amethyst> because no one has gotten around to disabling it yet
17:26:25 <|amethyst> not sure about kilobyte's opinion, but I'm pretty sure it won't be in 0.13 release
17:26:30 <ChrisOelmueller> well rHellfire certainly is the biggest problem too, as is their intransparent "hover" , as is restricting and special-casing things all over the code
17:26:35 <|amethyst> I don't know if it actually needs to be removed from trunk
17:26:44 <ChrisOelmueller> as is allowing DjHe at all but not MuHe (why)
17:26:56 <|amethyst> because elyvilon hates undead
17:27:04 <bh> DjBe is broken too
17:27:04 <ChrisOelmueller> make dj undead then
17:27:07 <ChrisOelmueller> or evil otherwise
17:27:14 <ChrisOelmueller> and the full intransparency of how essence works is worse than in being unbalanced imo
17:27:29 <kilobyte> bh: because of weapon apts?
17:27:43 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  no hunger cost for berserk
17:27:53 <bh> ^ that
17:27:54 <ChrisOelmueller> they don't have hunger cost for anything
17:28:28 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: i can pacify monster mummies, so certainly there would be a way
17:28:35 <kilobyte> ChrisOelmueller: you mean, like hunger cost for berserk means anything?
17:28:41 <kilobyte> demons can't currently berserk, though
17:28:52 <ChrisOelmueller> kilobyte: it does, but you probably want |amethyst
17:28:53 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  can't enslave them though
17:28:54 <kilobyte> so blocking that would make sense
17:29:07 <ChrisOelmueller> okay so we're now restricting even more things randomly
17:29:10 <ChrisOelmueller> that is not the way out
17:29:17 <ChrisOelmueller> please start realizing :(
17:29:18 <kilobyte> ChrisOelmueller: why?  It's consistent with monsters.
17:29:37 <|amethyst> please don't
17:29:38 <kilobyte> give an imp a potion of berserk and see what he does with it
17:30:18 <ChrisOelmueller> if you're designing a player race based on what monsters in crawl do currently, that's a clear path to utter failure
17:30:23 <kilobyte> I have no idea why our demons can't berserk, but if they can't, then they shouldn't sometimes can sometimes not.
17:30:32 <ChrisOelmueller> and Dj certainly looks to be on a good way wrt. that
17:30:40 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  but djinn aren't demons
17:31:06 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  I mean, maybe they're supposed to be, but MH_NATURAL is nothing like MH_DEMONIC | MH_HOLY
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17:31:49 <kilobyte> |amethyst: they're supposed to be the same stuff as angels and demons (who are identical other than for TSO's view: halo, holy wrath, etc)
17:32:32 <kilobyte> I'd say allowing demons to berserk would make more sense than forbidding, probably
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17:32:49 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  polymorph is another issue
17:33:01 <ChrisOelmueller> this is going in a very wrong direction
17:33:03 <kilobyte> ChrisOelmueller: Dj got enough testing I think, problems are quite well identified
17:33:21 <kilobyte> so we could just fix them right now instead of waiting
17:33:40 <kilobyte> (and see what's up with lava orc fixes)
17:34:19 <elliptic> problems: nobody has a clue how EP works because it is special-cased in different ways for every effect
17:34:22 <elliptic> solution: ????
17:34:28 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  do you plan on keeping all three of the mechanics?  (hungerless, EP, rF++++)
17:34:40 <ChrisOelmueller> i think the design is flawed in a way that makes "fixing" impossible, and if you now start with your consistency thing again that only strengthens my point
17:35:00 <ChrisOelmueller> how do you even balance rF++++
17:35:03 <ChrisOelmueller> like, ever
17:35:07 <kilobyte> |amethyst: yeah
17:35:16 <kilobyte> ChrisOelmueller: eh, what's wrong with rF++++?
17:35:20 <elliptic> |amethyst: there's also the incredibly weird hover, which causes players to do things like turn off autoexplore over shallow water in rcfile
17:35:29 <kilobyte> ChrisOelmueller: this particular point looks ok to me, unlike many others
17:35:59 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  I don't know... it seems too busy in a way
17:36:02 <kilobyte> elliptic: isn't shallow water already avoided by default?
17:36:06 <elliptic> no?
17:36:17 <ChrisOelmueller> kilobyte: okay, then let's work on those and i'll bring it up later when it's time to do
17:36:47 <kilobyte> elliptic: if you haven't noticed that then perhaps the weighting is way too low
17:37:15 <elliptic> kilobyte: I mean, I was asked just the other day how to turn off shallow water autoexplore on Dj
17:37:25 <|amethyst> elliptic means the player wanted to turn off AE over shallow water altogether
17:37:27 <elliptic> which is very reasonable because stepping on shallow water is totally awful currently
17:37:28 <|amethyst> not reduce the weight
17:37:35 <elliptic> because it slows all actions for no reason
17:37:38 <kilobyte> hovering could be replaced with regular flight; my idea was to not give them the full strength of Tengu/BlDrac/Gargoyles
17:37:40 <elliptic> just have it slow movement
17:37:54 <elliptic> the issue is that it slows all actions
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17:38:01 <kilobyte> hmm, good point
17:38:09 <kilobyte> would make sense, yeah
17:38:36 <elliptic> anyway, the EP weirdnesses are the most worrying for me
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17:39:46 <elliptic> if there was some simple rule that explained how EP worked, that would be one thing
17:40:02 <elliptic> but there isn't (and I don't think there can be without everything being imbalanced)
17:40:22 <|amethyst> you mean things like robust/low magic?
17:40:39 <kilobyte> those mutations could be all axed
17:40:45 <elliptic> |amethyst: also ely, regeneration, various sources of channeling, etc
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17:41:25 <elliptic> basically everything that dealt with HP/MP has to decide how it deals with EP
17:41:35 <elliptic> and there's no simple rule for how this works
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17:45:41 <|amethyst> channelling could be prevented altogether (the magic from the air around you is too contaminated for a being of pure energy just as yourself)
17:45:55 <|amethyst> the ely thing wouldn't be as much of a problem if they weren't hungerless too
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17:48:31 <|amethyst> That's why I kind of think they be split into two species: I think hungerless + EP is a lot harder to balance well (in a non-arbitrary way) than either of those alone
17:48:49 <|amethyst> they're synergistic in a bad way
17:49:08 <|amethyst> good for the djinn themselves, but bad for balance I mean
17:50:07 <|amethyst> rF++++ on the other hand is pretty much orthogonal to those two so could stay with either side of the split
17:50:42 <ChrisOelmueller> it's also completely unnecessary so how about it goes on neither
17:50:51 <ChrisOelmueller> what's wrong with rF+ or even rF++
17:50:52 <elliptic> can we just change rF++++ to rF+
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17:53:24 <kilobyte> elliptic: why?  That'd be a yet another boring perk rather than something that makes a race different.  Bigger features are harder to balance, yeah, but a single resist feel like a yet another apt-only race.
17:53:36 <kilobyte> immunity to fire allows some unique tactics
17:53:41 <elliptic> resists are not apts
17:54:04 <elliptic> no other species has rF+ (aside from red dracs)
17:54:08 <elliptic> no other species has EP
17:54:14 <ChrisOelmueller> you can't seriously try to argue that rF+ doesn't make something differen
17:54:15 <kilobyte> _aside from_
17:54:16 <elliptic> how would it be an "apt-only race"
17:54:17 <|amethyst> LO has rF+ most of the time it matters
17:54:24 <elliptic> LO isn't in the game
17:54:26 <ChrisOelmueller> LO doesn't exist
17:54:50 <elliptic> kilobyte: I just see no point in having an entire race be totally immune to orbs of fire
17:54:55 <kilobyte> I think |amethyst is right that hungerlessness might be too hard to balance together with MP/HP unification
17:55:22 <elliptic> hellfire aside for now, orbs of fire are the most iconic and hardest zot:5 enemy
17:56:00 <kilobyte> hardest yeah, but I wouldn't agree with being iconic
17:56:16 <kilobyte> also, mutations work just same as for any other race
17:56:18 <|amethyst> I think they're pretty iconic
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17:56:40 <kilobyte> orb guardians, killer klowns, etc
17:57:10 <elliptic> there's just no point in adding this to an already very different species
17:58:25 <elliptic> also, crawl sort of has a policy about not handing out immunities, just resistances
17:58:55 <|amethyst> elliptic:  there is poison
17:58:56 <elliptic> note that monsters get cold immunity from rC+++ but players do not, and ask yourself why players do not
17:59:17 <elliptic> |amethyst: you can't get immunity to poison impact damage, unless that changed?
17:59:33 <|amethyst> elliptic:  I suppose that's true
18:00:49 <kilobyte> elliptic: you mean, Torment which is the biggest danger in most of extended?
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18:01:37 <kilobyte> or draining
18:01:45 <ChrisOelmueller> what is an extended
18:01:56 <ChrisOelmueller> last time i checked three runes were enough
18:02:13 <|amethyst> doesn't player torment immunity always come with dispel undead vulnerability
18:02:17 <ChrisOelmueller> (also what are you trying to say? i honestly don't see it)
18:02:26 <elliptic> |amethyst: yes
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18:02:56 <elliptic> it's true that you can be immune to draining
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18:03:08 <|amethyst> if djinn (or whatever race) could never get up to rC 0, might that be a reasonable balance to immunity
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18:03:16 <elliptic> however in general crawl prefers to not give players the ability to make monsters completely harmless
18:03:45 <elliptic> |amethyst: it just makes the whole race harder to balance and weirder, and we are already talking about a really weird race
18:03:47 <kilobyte> |amethyst: they had a custom rC formula that was removed due to complaints
18:03:58 <elliptic> rF+ would be simple and strong, or even rF++ or rF+++
18:04:05 <kilobyte> well, so are felids
18:04:07 <elliptic> giving them super-special rF just isn't necessary
18:04:09 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  I think "no increasing rC" would be a lot easier to understand
18:04:20 <elliptic> kilobyte: felids don't have rF+++++ last I checked...
18:04:24 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  and it was easy to get them to neutral rC
18:05:20 <kilobyte> elliptic: "really weird".  There were loads of suggestions to make them some boring fur-eared humanoids with slightly different apts...
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18:05:45 <elliptic> kilobyte: how is this relevant to anything
18:05:48 <elliptic> I really don't see
18:05:50 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  felids have one good weirdness and one bad one
18:05:55 <|amethyst> kilobyte:  djinn have three good ones
18:06:39 <elliptic> this is not a felid discussion, anyway
18:06:43 <|amethyst> (well, two maybe, since hungerless isn't unique to them)
18:06:52 <elliptic> nobody is suggesting making Dj a boring fiery humanoid with slightly different apts
18:07:49 <|amethyst> what about:  djinn (EP), efreet (rF4), and leave hungerlessness for mummies?
18:10:09 <kilobyte> meh; I'd keep at least two features
18:10:35 <|amethyst> unique features you mean?
18:10:39 <elliptic> you still have hover and rF+ and EP
18:10:41 <elliptic> don't be greedy
18:10:44 <elliptic> :P
18:11:04 <kilobyte> it's easy to have cookie-cutter races
18:11:24 <kilobyte> there's so many halflings or sludge elves
18:11:30 <|amethyst> um
18:11:33 <elliptic> pretty sure there aren't any of the latter
18:12:01 * kilobyte peers at the halflings too :p
18:12:02 <|amethyst> I don't think anyone will confuse the-only-race-with-a-combined-EP-pool with sludge elves
18:12:48 <|amethyst> no one thinks deep dwarves are cookie-cutter
18:13:13 <ChrisOelmueller> i think they should be cut fwiw
18:13:16 <ChrisOelmueller> cookies or not
18:14:08 <|amethyst> (yes, DD have two unique abilities, but as with felids, one is good and one is bad)
18:14:46 <|amethyst> and the (dis)abilities are more integral to one another than in the case of felids
18:14:49 <elliptic> damage shaving and wand recharging is two good ones actually, but no healing is *really* bad of course :P
18:15:10 <ChrisOelmueller> they have three good ones, and at least one should go
18:15:14 <elliptic> and in practice damage shaving is not that much different from having a bit of racial AC
18:15:29 <ChrisOelmueller> starting with the best item in the game is kind of not so bad
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18:16:43 <elliptic> DD unique stuff at least all fits together as |amethyst said... it's no regeneration + stuff to deal with that
18:17:01 <elliptic> whereas these Dj abilities don't really have much to do with each other
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18:23:12 <robotcentaur> My two cents: hungerless and hover and the EP mechanic is pretty intrinsic with what I'd expect Dj to be.  Build from that core.
18:23:42 <ChrisOelmueller> i'm expecting something that works instead
18:23:45 <ChrisOelmueller> imo build from that
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18:26:19 <robotcentaur> I agree though that DD is more game mechanic combos while Dj is more flavor-based combos
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18:41:02 <Naruni> !messages
18:41:03 <Henzell> No messages for Naruni.
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18:56:47 <TZer0> !messages
18:56:48 <Henzell> No messages for TZer0.
18:57:03 <TZer0> oh, right, I was mentioned.
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20:12:45 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: FR your (v.cool btw) crawl glyph things list Q and 6 rows
20:13:03 <ChrisOelmueller> also some monsters should really be moved to Q, how about death cobs for one
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20:14:59 <|amethyst> if death cobs aren't % maybe they should be removed
20:15:08 <ChrisOelmueller> also fine with that
20:15:18 <|amethyst> not that I necessarily think they should be, but % is a big part of the joke
20:15:20 <bh> !lg * ckiller=death_cob
20:15:20 <Sequell> 25. Aknarov the Spear-Bearer (L8 LODK), worshipper of Beogh, slain by a death cob (created by the anger of Yredelemnul) on D:5 on 2013-07-12 00:11:01, with 1247 points after 6266 turns and 0:37:42.
20:15:31 <bh> !lg * ckiller=death_cob max=xl
20:15:32 <Sequell> 25. puddinbane the Cryomancer (L27 MuIE), worshipper of Vehumet, mangled by a death cob on Zot:5 (hall_of_Zot) on 2011-03-20 02:21:34, with 584159 points after 184270 turns and 13:19:04.
20:15:37 <Cheibriados> death cob (08%) | Spd: 25 | HD: 10 | HP: 49-83 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Dam: 20 | 07undead, 10doors, evil | Res: 06magic(40), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1016 | Sz: tiny | Int: normal.

20:15:37 <|amethyst> %??death cob
20:15:54 <ChrisOelmueller> well i don't get the joke
20:15:56 <ChrisOelmueller> if there is one
20:15:56 <Cheibriados> orc warrior (08o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 4 | HP: 17-39 | AC/EV: 0/13 | Dam: 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(16) | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 133 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.

20:15:56 <bh> %??orc warrior
20:16:17 <bh> ChrisOelmueller: they're undead corn on the cob
20:16:29 <geekosaur> killer food
20:16:31 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  I guess more a Far Side comic than a joke per se
20:16:38 <ChrisOelmueller> bh: i also don't get any of the jokes you're responsible for, so explaining that to me won't do
20:16:55 <bh> it isn't my joke.
20:18:53 <gammafunk> yeah being chased by % in zot is amusing, but it is a console-only joke for the most part
20:19:48 <bh> can falling down the stairs still happen?
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20:21:36 <elliptic> if confused then you have a 50% chance of failing to climb stairs iirc, and if you fail then you fall and take 1 damage?
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20:28:04 <|amethyst> !hs * killer~~Fell.down
20:28:04 <Sequell> No games for * (killer~~Fell.down).
20:28:16 <|amethyst> !hs * ktyp~~fell
20:28:17 <Sequell> No games for * (ktyp~~fell).
20:28:40 <bh> ktyp=falling_down_stairs
20:28:50 <|amethyst> !hs * ktyp~~falling
20:28:52 <Sequell> 380. daf the Conjurer (L12 KoRe), worshipper of Okawaru, fell down a flight of stairs on Orc:2 on 2007-08-17 00:15:14, with 14744 points after 32337 turns and 2:27:53.
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20:29:48 <|amethyst> !lg * ktyp~~falling max=dam
20:29:50 <Sequell> 380. Ret the Cudgeler (L6 MDFi), fell down a flight of stairs on D:2 on 2008-08-27 12:49:32, with 529 points after 4331 turns and 0:13:21.
20:29:59 <|amethyst> !lg * ktyp~~falling max=dam x=dam
20:30:01 <Sequell> 380. [dam=50] Ret the Cudgeler (L6 MDFi), fell down a flight of stairs on D:2 on 2008-08-27 12:49:32, with 529 points after 4331 turns and 0:13:21.
20:30:08 <robotcentaur> people have died flling down stairs?
20:30:12 <|amethyst> !lg * ktyp~~falling dam=1
20:30:12 <robotcentaur> whoa
20:30:13 <Sequell> 92. Vesto the Skirmisher (L1 GrFi), fell down a flight of stairs on D:2 on 2013-07-31 02:47:07, with 65 points after 119 turns and 0:00:22.
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20:30:27 <|amethyst> 92 people have even died to a 1-HP fall down the stairs
20:30:35 <robotcentaur> bahahahaha
20:30:35 <|amethyst> !lg * ktyp~~falling dam>1
20:30:37 <Sequell> 143. tapicell the Ruinous (L3 DECj), fell down a flight of stairs on D:2 on 2009-06-11 23:08:12, with 79 points after 1425 turns and 0:03:56.
20:30:49 <bh> !lg * ktyp~~falling dam>1 -log
20:30:51 <Sequell> 143. tapicell, XL3 DECj, T:1425: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/tapicell/morgue-tapicell-20090611-230812.txt
20:30:57 <bh> 11!
20:31:06 <bh> !lg * ktype~~falling max=dam
20:31:08 <Sequell> 380. Ret the Cudgeler (L6 MDFi), fell down a flight of stairs on D:2 on 2008-08-27 12:49:32, with 529 points after 4331 turns and 0:13:21.
20:31:11 <bh> !lg * ktype~~falling max=dam -log
20:31:12 <Sequell> 380. Ret, XL6 MDFi, T:4331: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Ret/morgue-Ret-20080827-124932.txt
20:31:19 <bh> holycrap
20:31:43 <bh> that probably shouldn't be possible.
20:31:57 <elliptic> well, it isn't possible
20:31:58 <ChrisOelmueller> you've seen the timestamp there right
20:31:59 <elliptic> (now)
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20:32:36 <|amethyst> yeah, most recent one with >1 was 0.4
20:33:08 <bh> ah
20:33:46 <|amethyst> in 0.4 it was (3 + burden_state)d5
20:34:29 <elliptic> probably it should just be 0 damage
20:34:43 <|amethyst> yeah
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20:35:07 <bh> failing to use the stairs while confused is punishment enough
20:35:11 <elliptic> yes
20:35:17 <|amethyst> if you're low enough for it to matter, probably failing to leave the level is far far worse
20:35:20 <|amethyst> yeah
20:36:50 <|amethyst> those are btw the only ouch() calls with exactly one damage
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20:37:36 <|amethyst> draining hard codes 4
20:38:57 <|amethyst> oh, and I guess undead mutation rot does 3
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20:40:20 <ChrisOelmueller> oh, some monster spells really need descriptions now they're visible by the way
20:40:34 <ChrisOelmueller> i just noticed all those weird "blink" spells don't exist
20:40:37 * tenofswords coughs
20:40:55 <ChrisOelmueller> tenofswords: great, thanks for volunteering
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20:41:16 <tenofswords> pff, no, I'm just going to be mean and note that I noted of this months ago
20:41:26 <tenofswords> multiple times in multiple ways
20:43:24 <ChrisOelmueller> have you ever witnessed something relevant getting done after being mentioned by only one person in here
20:44:43 <tenofswords> does two people really make it mean anything more
20:44:59 <ChrisOelmueller> maybe you need more personalities
20:45:35 <tenofswords> they're all the same
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20:47:51 <bh> alright, that's it. I'm changing mutations up. good, bad, neutral
20:49:18 <ChrisOelmueller> what's wild magic
20:49:25 <|amethyst> are there all that many neutral mutations?
20:49:29 <ChrisOelmueller> what's pseudopods
20:49:31 <bh> |amethyst: +1/-1
20:49:38 <bh> ??pseudopod
20:49:39 <Henzell> I don't have a page labeled pseudopod in my learndb.
20:49:39 <ChrisOelmueller> can those just go
20:49:43 <bh> ChrisOelmueller: isn't that a jiyva mutation?
20:49:45 <ChrisOelmueller> i mean +1-1 shit
20:49:48 <ChrisOelmueller> bh: yes
20:49:50 <bh> good point. That's an easy change
20:50:11 <ChrisOelmueller> doesn't mean they won't ruin your ac and you can't cure it
20:50:17 <SwissStopwatch> mutations aren't ever so much neutral as "some good some bad"
20:50:29 <ChrisOelmueller> i.e. jiyva-cure
20:50:40 <|amethyst> what about carn/herb
20:50:57 <|amethyst> carnivore isn't strictly good and herbivore isn't strictly bad; but still they do lean those ways
20:51:04 <bh> they lean bad
20:51:10 <mnoqy> i think currently carn is nonbad & herb is bad
20:51:12 <|amethyst> carnivore leans good I'd say
20:51:14 <ChrisOelmueller> carnivore is bad??
20:51:30 <|amethyst> since it lets you get to higher satiation without permafood
20:51:40 <|amethyst> and since there is a lot more meat than non-meat
20:51:41 <bh> what are the names of the +1/-1s?
20:51:45 <SwissStopwatch> herbivore makes eating chunks annoying and difficult, right
20:51:49 <SwissStopwatch> or sometimes impossible
20:51:50 <bh> flexible/weak...
20:51:55 <SwissStopwatch> that's pretty ungood
20:52:03 <ChrisOelmueller> except it doesn't anymore
20:52:04 <|amethyst> MUT_STRONG_STIFF MUT_FLEXIBLE_WEAK
20:52:06 <ChrisOelmueller> because no nausea
20:52:14 <|amethyst> SwissStopwatch:  no, it just reduces nutrition these days
20:52:42 <ChrisOelmueller> i mean i could see +1-1 mattering if we had like, stats between 0 and 8
20:53:33 <|amethyst> we discussed +N/-1 but that has the problem that cancelling/combining them is a pain
20:53:49 <ChrisOelmueller> how's -1 different from -0 i wonder
20:54:07 <bh> I'll just convert the +1/-1's to +1/0's
20:54:18 <|amethyst> bh:  the +1s already exist
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20:54:22 <ChrisOelmueller> +1 stat doesn't do anything
20:54:24 <bh> |amethyst: yep
20:54:35 <|amethyst> bh:  oh, you mean increase their weights to compensate
20:54:44 <ChrisOelmueller> wow no
20:54:57 <bh> |amethyst: no, I meant if you have `+1/-1` auto-convert it to `+1/0`
20:55:03 <|amethyst> and, yes, making them more like +2 or +3 would probably be okay
20:55:40 <bh> does that make clumsy -2?
20:55:55 <|amethyst> bh:  oh, when combining.  That works, but it's probably more code than it's worth
20:55:57 <ChrisOelmueller> there are some scales that also do -n for small n
20:56:10 <ChrisOelmueller> and also one that does like -1 ev or something
20:56:36 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  the difference with scales is that in the most common case you're going to eventually get all three levels
20:56:43 <|amethyst> s/case/two cases/
20:57:04 <|amethyst> it would be nice if having scales (etc) upweighted the same mutation
20:57:37 <ChrisOelmueller> icy blue does -1 EV in tiers 2 and 3
20:57:45 <|amethyst> maybe only slightly, but it seems quite unlikely to ever get three levels of something when it's not racial and you're not going with jiyva
20:57:45 <ChrisOelmueller> for {{reasons}}
20:58:29 <ChrisOelmueller> (so does molten)
20:58:39 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  as compensation for rC being better than rP
20:58:41 <bh> would it make anyone sad if I just make the +1/-1's weight zero?
20:59:23 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: i'd happily trade rPois rings for rC -1EV how do i go about this
20:59:49 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  though at level 2 slimy green is better, so maybe the EV penalty ought to come up only for l3
21:01:13 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller: I didn't say it completely compensated
21:03:17 <|amethyst> elliptic was the last person to tweak those numbers, but I don't think he changed the EV stuff
21:09:17 <bh> hrmph -- what's the tag friendly way to designate a mutation for purging?
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21:12:26 <|amethyst> do you want to remove it from existing players?
21:12:52 <bh> no, because it might kill them.
21:13:12 <|amethyst> %git c02ef2af
21:13:13 <Cheibriados> 07MarvinPA02 * 0.13-a0-201-gc02ef2a: Remove Jiyva's "food jelly" mutation 10(5 months ago, 4 files, 6+ 12-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c02ef2af8354
21:13:39 <|amethyst> but for a non-Jiyva mutation you'd reduce the weight instead of removing it from the *_slime_mutation functions
21:13:54 <bh> ok, that's what I thought
21:13:57 <|amethyst> well
21:14:06 <|amethyst> in this case, also #ifdefs around the code that implements it
21:14:24 <|amethyst> player-stats.cc
21:14:27 <bh> yep
21:14:34 <|amethyst> since you don't want to yank that out since that would also kill them
21:14:57 <|amethyst> an alternative would be to replace it on load time with levels of the corresponding separate +1 and -1s
21:15:14 <|amethyst> but I don't think I like that, because the number of mutations is important for various things
21:15:31 <Cheibriados> Crash when examining player ghost with `xv` <https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7514> by tmhedberg
21:15:53 <simmarine> oh yeah what happens when you look at ghost spells
21:16:08 <simmarine> i guess crash
21:16:43 <|amethyst> depends on uninitialised memory I guess
21:16:51 <|amethyst> I see Death Channel locally :)
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21:20:51 <bh> what about making the +1 mutations suck significantly less? +1/+3/+6?
21:21:08 <Cheibriados> 03bh02 07* 0.13-a0-2814-g3bcad43: Set boring stat mutation probabilities to zero. 10(13 minutes ago, 2 files, 8+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3bcad43c5d95
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21:21:33 <|amethyst> bh:  I think I'd prefer +2/+4/+6
21:21:44 <bh> |amethyst: sure
21:22:01 <ChrisOelmueller> i'd prefer +2/+4 and no third level
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21:22:20 <|amethyst> oh, you meant also limiting the max
21:22:23 <bh> ChrisOelmueller: how many levels of +Stat do you think there are? :)
21:22:33 <ChrisOelmueller> way, way too many
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21:22:40 <bh> 14
21:23:05 <ChrisOelmueller> made more sense when those stupid potions existed, but not much even then
21:23:17 <|amethyst> I'm totally sure even +10 has ever happened
21:23:32 <bh> |amethyst: would it be naughty to convert excess MUT_STRONG to just a stat change?
21:24:06 <|amethyst> yes, probably
21:24:25 <|amethyst> particularly if you don't take temp mutations into account
21:25:03 <ChrisOelmueller> o joy, perl everywhere i see
21:25:15 <ChrisOelmueller> util/ is a source of happiness
21:25:40 <ChrisOelmueller> how do i try to look up a database entry there
21:25:44 <bh> Do you have a better idea for avoiding splatting someone with a dumb mutation set on game load?
21:26:20 <|amethyst> bh:  hm
21:26:24 <|amethyst> bh:  that doesn't solve it
21:26:27 <bh> I could change MUT_STRONG to have weight zero and add a second two-tier mutation that does what we want, but that seems kludgey
21:27:57 <Lightli> are you guys removing stat mutations?
21:28:20 <|amethyst> Lightli:  probably making them bigger than +1 per mutation and not 14 levels
21:28:21 <bh> Lightli: making them less stupid
21:28:52 <ChrisOelmueller> tenofswords: http://bpaste.net/show/a1Zl7O5j0t9QsQzfnBez/
21:28:58 <ChrisOelmueller> also everyone else
21:29:06 <|amethyst> bh:  suppose they had base 2 str and 8 levels of weak, but are carrying cure mut.  You convert the extra -2 into base, and now they have 0 base and cure mut won't save them
21:29:23 <|amethyst> bh:  not that that's likely, but being alive thanks to +8 probably isn't either :)
21:29:26 <Lightli> 'nonexistent spell spell'
21:29:44 <bh> |amethyst: I was going to give the player the benefit of the doubt. Convert the excess good into base and truncate the excess bad
21:29:54 <ChrisOelmueller> yes i didn't do any cleaning up (also this case matching seems messed up)
21:29:59 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  I put together a list in a different way
21:30:05 <tenofswords> cantrip
21:30:12 <tenofswords> won't that be a fun thing to explain
21:30:13 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  I'm about to submit the implementable
21:30:15 <ChrisOelmueller> cantrip has no entry
21:30:18 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: oh, nice
21:30:25 <|amethyst> and yes, I removed cantrip, melee, and nonexistent
21:30:36 <bh> ??malign offering
21:30:37 <Henzell> malign offering[1/1]: A spell cast by elf priests which hurts you and heals their allies. Resisted by rN.
21:30:40 <ChrisOelmueller> saves me the unbearable amount of suffering that is reading perl code
21:30:49 <tenofswords> why is summon rakshasa seperate from rakshasa summon
21:31:13 <bh> one summons rakshasas the other summons stuff and is cast by a rakshasa?
21:31:21 <ChrisOelmueller> one of them is the thing fake rakshasa cast
21:31:27 <ChrisOelmueller> the other summons the fakes
21:31:31 <tenofswords> oh
21:31:34 <ChrisOelmueller> i think?
21:31:36 <tenofswords> fun times
21:31:36 <|amethyst> ohh
21:31:36 <ChrisOelmueller> who knows
21:31:57 <|amethyst> I *think* that's not a bug
21:32:09 <|amethyst> because we use the monster_info
21:32:49 <ChrisOelmueller> wait does that mean i can tell fake from real ones
21:33:05 <Lightli> no
21:33:11 <|amethyst> no, because we use the monster_info
21:33:19 <Lightli> unless you have see invis, in which case I think the fake ones are slightly transparent
21:33:21 <|amethyst> that's what I meant by "not a bug", sorry I was unclear
21:33:39 <|amethyst> Lightli:  no, the invisible ones are slightly transparent
21:33:51 <ChrisOelmueller> ah, right i misunderstood
21:34:10 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: also melee is an actual spell now
21:34:15 <ChrisOelmueller> it's even in a rod
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21:34:22 <ChrisOelmueller> (for now, at least...)
21:34:24 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  right, but "melee" versus "Melee"
21:34:29 <ChrisOelmueller> oh that thing
21:34:40 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  both of us did case-sensitive searches :)
21:35:25 <|amethyst> and some of those are just obsolete spells
21:35:35 <|amethyst> oh, no
21:35:42 <|amethyst> yours omitted those
21:36:07 <ChrisOelmueller> oh good, the thingy that summons 5 does use SUMMON_MINOR_DEMON
21:36:18 <ChrisOelmueller> *genera*l confusion follows
21:36:30 <ChrisOelmueller> should rename that too with MONS_IMP existing
21:36:55 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: i just hijacked db_lint with a modified gather_branches
21:37:09 <ChrisOelmueller> that magically looked for spl-data and a different regexp instead
21:37:13 <bh> hmm... why does Xom even bother with stat twiddling mutations?
21:38:37 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  I manually grepped and sedded the descriptions and spl-data, then used comm
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21:39:02 <ChrisOelmueller> it told me about two unused spells too but i didn't include those in the paste
21:39:15 <ChrisOelmueller> Levitation and Melee, as it happens
21:39:24 <|amethyst> I have a patch on the way for the first
21:39:33 <ChrisOelmueller> heh
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21:40:42 <ChrisOelmueller> 'Draconian Breath spell'
21:40:43 <ChrisOelmueller> mmm
21:40:52 <ChrisOelmueller> this may or may not need special casing
21:42:33 <ChrisOelmueller> and yeah, crawl has six different blink spells for monsters, plus blink and cblink, not counting scblink
21:45:18 <bh> ChrisOelmueller: "Bob: I have eight different [blink spells] right now."
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21:45:44 <ChrisOelmueller> i beg your pardon?
21:46:00 <bh> I guess you're right about not getting my jokes.
21:46:13 <ChrisOelmueller> wow, harsh
21:46:16 <|amethyst> close/range/away are all practically the same spell and maybe could be combined in the description
21:46:20 <ChrisOelmueller> because that's the actual reply
21:46:24 <ChrisOelmueller> i think?
21:46:25 <|amethyst> since those are all things they could do with cblink/scblink
21:46:26 <bh> derp :)
21:46:38 <|amethyst> and are really just behavioural differences encoded in the spell
21:47:32 <|amethyst> blink other {,close} and blink allies encircling are completely different things that have "blink" in the name, but are really no more similar than (say) Polymorph Other and Ice Form
21:48:40 <ChrisOelmueller> i was coming from the rather-new player that tries ?/s blink for the first time, and finds the list overwhelming
21:48:42 <bh> |amethyst: I can convert the balance of MUT_WEAK to stat damage
21:48:56 <ChrisOelmueller> oh great it will even include the descs, so probably all kinds of teleport too, and disjunction
21:49:32 <|amethyst> hm
21:49:49 <|amethyst> that is an issue
21:50:03 <|amethyst> different menus would work but sounds silly
21:50:09 <|amethyst> coloring them differently could work
21:50:17 <ChrisOelmueller> well you can compare ?/s blink to ?/m dragon
21:50:23 <ChrisOelmueller> that latter one certainly is worse
21:51:09 <ChrisOelmueller> (all the more reasons for Fire dragon)
21:52:35 <|amethyst> you also can't search for "all monsters with D in their name" unless you know regexps
21:52:46 <Lightli> why is it "dragon" and not "fire dragon"?
21:53:05 <|amethyst> European mythology mostly
21:53:19 <ChrisOelmueller> because my patch includes more stuff and i haven't figured out whether i'm mentally stable enough to actually post it on mantis
21:53:20 <|amethyst> look in the commit logs for the one that renamed the armour
21:53:24 <|amethyst> 0.10 era
21:53:29 <bh> FR: Acid Dragon, everyone will love that! Look at how popular Yellow Draconians are
21:53:50 <ChrisOelmueller> %git 4d5c11a30
21:53:50 <Cheibriados> 07kilobyte02 * 0.10-a0-1368-g4d5c11a: Rename dragon armour to "fire dragon armour".  Just the item, not monster. 10(1 year, 10 months ago, 16 files, 53+ 52-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4d5c11a30496
21:54:06 <ChrisOelmueller> the reason boils down to "well, no"
21:54:49 <ChrisOelmueller> but three major versions with FDA probably is enough time so that it's acceptable now
21:55:22 <|amethyst> while I do appreciate the folklore argument, the more I think about it the more it's kind of strange in-world
21:55:47 <ChrisOelmueller> yeah i see how renaming both at the same time didn't work
21:55:52 <|amethyst> "dragon" means "fire-breathing dragon" in European mythology because the other kinds never existed (neither did the fire-breathing kind, but)
21:56:08 <|amethyst> but in the world of Crawl, there are many kinds of dragons
21:56:40 <ChrisOelmueller> stuff like red dracs getting the "red" also weighs in
21:56:47 <|amethyst> so unless the green ones are the only ones that leave the dungeon, it seems that people would have given the fire-breathing one a more distinctive name
21:56:50 <ChrisOelmueller> so does dropping "fire dragon" hides
21:57:15 <ChrisOelmueller> maybe i'll collect some actual arguments instead of just being rude in here and post it this week
21:57:30 <ChrisOelmueller> or feel free to do it on your own, of course
21:57:43 <|amethyst> you care about the issue much more than I do :)
21:57:57 <ChrisOelmueller> damn
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21:59:24 <SamB> Lightli: I've been wondering about that too
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21:59:41 <SamB> Lightli: I mean, why we don't rename it
22:00:39 <ChrisOelmueller> well, there's this awkward pause where i'm supposed to mention that MONS_DRAGON currently is used as genus monster too
22:00:49 <ChrisOelmueller> so ice dragons would be of genus FIRE_DRAGON
22:01:03 <|amethyst> yeah, we'd need a separate genus if we did rename
22:01:10 <ChrisOelmueller> i do have that too, as it turns out
22:01:33 <|amethyst> err, I mean a fake genus-only monster, or what Kilobyte suggested (handling genera differently so that they don't need actual monster entries)
22:02:17 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.13-a0-2815-gd1bfc82: Remove an obsolete spell description. 10(56 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d1bfc82c70d4
22:02:17 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.13-a0-2816-gd8154f0: Don't crash on p{ghost,illusion,anlord} xv (#7514) 10(22 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d8154f07b272
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22:02:21 <ChrisOelmueller> this is not a format-patch: http://bpaste.net/show/5LtTcy71linGtoJRue81/
22:02:28 <ChrisOelmueller> but it's probably most of what's required
22:02:38 <ChrisOelmueller> also wrong author information, i.e. doesn't mention Eronarn
22:02:58 <ChrisOelmueller> but i'll have to fix that up for all my commits anyways so i planned to do it in the end
22:03:09 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  tiles
22:03:27 <ChrisOelmueller> i did tiles, to the best of my knowledge
22:03:36 <ChrisOelmueller> == everything git grep taught me
22:03:48 <ChrisOelmueller> oh, tiles for the genus monster
22:03:56 <|amethyst> oh, no
22:04:04 <|amethyst> I missed the dc-mon.txt entry in your patch
22:04:37 <|amethyst> genus monster doesn't need tiles AFAIK if it's M_CANT_SPAWN
22:04:46 <|amethyst> MONS_BEAR doesn't have one, for example
22:05:09 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  also, vaults
22:05:18 <ChrisOelmueller> yeah, vaults definitely
22:05:34 <ChrisOelmueller> didn't want to do all that manual sed review before discussing the change
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22:05:40 <ChrisOelmueller> guess i can start now
22:05:57 <|amethyst> well
22:07:03 <|amethyst> maybe it makes sense to discuss more before writing it, I don't know
22:07:50 <|amethyst> OTOH, having a complete patch in hand might not hurt there
22:09:13 <|amethyst> also descriptions; and I'm not sure ATM whether monster speech uses all the same tags at genus as at species level
22:09:13 <ChrisOelmueller> well it'll never be complete, in the sense of me not running database- and translation updates
22:09:26 <bh> |amethyst: how much effort do you think I should expend on not splatting people upon conversion of Weak/Dopey/Clumsy to -2/-4?
22:09:42 <|amethyst> translation is fine, but you should make sure you don't break Xtahua's speech :)
22:09:57 <ChrisOelmueller> that one has been broken for some while!
22:10:02 <ChrisOelmueller> it's all upper case for some reason!
22:10:10 <|amethyst> ??xtahua
22:10:11 <Henzell> XTAHUA[1/1]: A POWERFUL UNIQUE DRAGON, USUALLY FOUND IN THE MIDGAME. BREATHES PAINFUL (3D38) FIRE, BUT VULNERABLE TO COLD. HIS MELEE DAMAGE POTENTIAL IS NOTHING TO SNEEZE AT, EITHER. AT SOME POINT DURING HIS YEARS AS AN ANCIENT AND MIGHTY DRAGON, HE LEARNED HOW TO OPEN DOORS.
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22:10:50 <SamB> that doesn't actually mention that he can talk ...
22:10:52 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  more of that German sense of humour I see :)
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22:11:47 <ChrisOelmueller> i don't think i'm very German in any way, including humor
22:11:53 <ChrisOelmueller> so probably not :o
22:12:07 <ChrisOelmueller> proof: currently 5AM in germany
22:12:28 <bh> uhh... have you met any of dpeg, kilobyte or Napkin?
22:12:34 <bh> or Marvin or mumra or any of the other Europeans
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22:13:59 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  I meant that you don't seem to find things funny :)
22:14:20 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  undead grains, shouty dragons, ...
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22:15:15 <|amethyst> silly grown-ups
22:15:23 <ChrisOelmueller> granted, that's not fun
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22:16:04 <|amethyst> bh:  brits count as european now?
22:16:14 <bh> |amethyst: deny it as they might
22:16:40 <bh> England: Part of Europe since 11,000 BC
22:17:32 <Cheibriados> Want descriptions for monster spells. <https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7515> by neil
22:18:16 <geekosaur> ssh, don't tell Cameron
22:18:58 <bh> don't get me started.
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22:24:59 <ChrisOelmueller> wow, zot.des could really use a dragon setup
22:25:10 <ChrisOelmueller> it's defining the same six dragons multiple times
22:26:12 <bh> you're submitting patches, right? :)
22:27:01 <ChrisOelmueller> that would just conflict with these changes
22:31:23 <|amethyst> ChrisOelmueller:  sometimes in a different order :/
22:32:55 <bh> |amethyst: gah. I can't find a good way around stat deathing people with the stat mutation change
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22:33:22 <bh> MUT_WEAK_II might be the best solution
22:33:33 <bh> or just killing 'em.
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22:40:38 <ChrisOelmueller> |amethyst: does order matter there?
22:40:41 <ChrisOelmueller> i only saw slashes
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23:22:10 <gammafunk> Is there a command to show stat leveling by or for a species  for any of the bots?
23:23:00 <ChrisOelmueller> ??sid
23:23:01 <Henzell> stat gain[2/2]: | Ce sd/4 | DD si/4 | DE i/4 | Dg sid/2 | Dj sid/4 | Dr sid/4 | Ds sid/4 | Fe id/5 | Gh s/5 | Gr si/4 | Ha d/5 | HE id/3 | HO s/5 | Hu sid/4 | LO s/5 | Ko sd/5 | Mf sid/5 | Mi sd/4 | Mu none | Na sid/4 | Og s/3 | Op sid/5 | SE id/4 | Sp id/5 | Te sid/4 | Tr s/3 | Vp none
23:23:28 <ChrisOelmueller> so that's collected manually.
23:23:55 <gammafunk> ChrisOelmueller: thanks
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23:44:19 <Lantell> Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.13-a0-2816-gd8154f0 (34)
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