00:00:25 <Cheibriados> unknown monster: "ghost_crab"

00:00:25 <gammafunk> %??ghost_crab
00:00:38 <Cheibriados> unknown monster: "ghost crab"

00:00:38 <Patashu> %??ghost crab
00:00:42 <Patashu> huh
00:00:59 <PleasingFungus> not sure when it rebuilds
00:01:06 <gammafunk> when |amethyst rebuilds it
00:01:13 <PleasingFungus> o
00:02:10 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1554-g44dca77 (34)
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00:02:59 <ontoclasm> i am unsure of those summon spells
00:03:51 <ontoclasm> but that brings the number of Su spells with icons to, uh
00:03:52 <ontoclasm> 1
00:04:01 <PleasingFungus> ...not three?
00:04:02 <ontoclasm> or 2 i guess
00:04:20 <ontoclasm> do they stat with mana viper?
00:04:28 <PleasingFungus> oh
00:04:30 <ontoclasm> ??book of callings
00:04:30 <Sequell> book of callings[1/1]: 0.14: Summon Small Mammal, Call Imp, Call Canine Familiar, Summon Guardian Golem, Summon Lightning Spire, Summon Ice Beast
00:04:31 <PleasingFungus> you mean Su
00:04:34 <gammafunk> heh, no
00:04:35 <PleasingFungus> two
00:04:40 <PleasingFungus> wait three
00:04:46 <PleasingFungus> imp, spire, and wait no that's two
00:04:52 <ontoclasm> yeah
00:04:55 <PleasingFungus> ...maybe I should go to bed
00:05:02 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: tell me how to make code work
00:05:03 <ontoclasm> numbers are hard
00:05:25 <minmay> is it really necessary for AF_ELEC to increase noise factor?
00:05:51 <minmay> no other attack flavour does
00:05:52 <ontoclasm> the apport icon came out awesome though
00:06:22 <minmay> and I doubt any player would guess it
00:06:54 <PleasingFungus> minmay: this is all the more reason to add the powerful NOISE METER feature
00:07:27 <ChangeAj> does it say in words its loud when you do actions
00:07:43 <minmay> did you know that demon trident is the quietest demon weapon
00:07:46 <PleasingFungus> uh
00:07:47 <Patashu> I would love it if noise was made more obvious to the player how it works
00:07:52 <ChangeAj> nope
00:08:04 <Bloaxor> is hitting something for 100 damage loud as hell
00:08:07 <ChangeAj> just need to add sound effects I guess
00:08:12 <PleasingFungus> probably it would be some kind of bar on the side of the screen OR a toggleable overlay that shows sources of noise & how far they spread (noise since your last turn)
00:08:22 <PleasingFungus> but the bar seems more practical to implmeent
00:08:37 <Patashu> a bar showing how much noise was made on your tile on the last turn
00:08:37 <minmay> Bloaxor, you will probably hit the cap
00:08:41 <Patashu> call it the Ear-O-Meter
00:08:44 <ChangeAj> just do what batman did zap. pow.
00:08:53 <Bloaxor> horrifying
00:09:08 <Bloaxor> until you realize that you just hit something for 100 damage so you'll probably be fine with what's coming
00:09:19 <PleasingFungus> that's still not gmos damage!!!
00:09:37 <ChangeAj> I guess number of !!! is an inicator of sound in some cases
00:09:41 <eb_> gmos damage is so loud ##crawl hears it
00:09:50 <PleasingFungus> dang.
00:10:06 <ChangeAj> not perfect mind you
00:11:01 <ChangeAj> also I realized that hitting things with a GSC was loud
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00:11:43 <PleasingFungus> Q: How long has this commented-out block of code been sitting around with the phrase "we'll keep it in case" appended?
00:11:48 <PleasingFungus> A: over three years
00:11:54 <minmay> actually, giant spiked clubs are dramatically quieter than giant clubs
00:11:59 <ChangeAj> what
00:12:03 <ChangeAj> how
00:12:13 <minmay> giant clubs have the loudest damage type
00:12:24 <ChangeAj> oh I read that as clubs
00:12:25 <Patashu> pleasingfungus: you don't even need to do that in git
00:12:32 <PleasingFungus> Patashu: I know :(
00:12:33 <Patashu> hmm
00:12:34 <ChangeAj> not giant club
00:12:35 <Patashu> if there was a noise meter
00:12:38 <minmay> clubs are also louder than giant spiked clubs
00:12:39 <Patashu> where in the interface would you put it
00:12:42 <Patashu> because it's kinda full already
00:12:43 <minmay> if they do enough damage
00:12:50 <ChangeAj> well ya but gl
00:12:58 <PleasingFungus> Patashu: that is a fair and reasonable question
00:13:00 <PleasingFungus> and beats me
00:13:05 <Patashu> I want noise meter
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00:13:07 <Patashu> but hard to think of how to put it in
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00:13:18 <gammafunk> just flash the screen
00:13:20 <gammafunk> throb the screen
00:13:21 <Bloaxor> a noise meter would be practical for measuring how loud YOUR last action was
00:13:22 <Patashu> no
00:13:22 <Patashu> no
00:13:23 <gammafunk> pulsing red
00:13:23 <minmay> oh, and unarmed is actually louder than any weapon
00:13:32 <ChangeAj> I think the most elegant is graphical or just plain text
00:13:33 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: make it jerk from side to side!
00:13:36 <gammafunk> yes
00:13:40 <ChangeAj> describing sound
00:13:40 <PleasingFungus> more violently based on the noise level
00:13:41 <PleasingFungus> obviously
00:13:48 <PleasingFungus> very loud noise also causes rotation
00:13:49 <Patashu> well, noise has a very intuitive measure
00:13:50 <Bloaxor> minmay: 60 str high-unarmed dragon form punches
00:13:53 <Patashu> 'how many tiles it can travel'
00:13:55 <Patashu> (this is already how noise works)
00:14:05 <Bloaxor> a thundering smash echoes the halls
00:14:06 <PleasingFungus> Patashu: yeah that's why I want a toggleable overlay
00:14:11 <Bloaxor> forever
00:14:12 <PleasingFungus> but idk if anyone would actually notice it existed
00:14:17 <Patashu> a toggleable overlay would be too busy and cumbersome
00:14:19 <Patashu> it should be like
00:14:25 <Patashu> 'hey, this makes noise, and it makes about this much noise'
00:14:26 <minmay> but yeah, an attack with a giant club is 66% louder than an attack with a giant spiked club that does the same damage
00:14:30 <Patashu> and you don't have to fiddle with it, the game just kindly helps you
00:14:34 <PleasingFungus> how?
00:14:39 <Patashu> well
00:14:44 <Patashu> doesn't lava orc have a temperature gauge
00:14:45 <Patashu> so ith as like
00:14:47 <Patashu> three gauges
00:14:59 <ChangeAj> well theres already a noise meter for spells right you could just add it in weapon descriptions and such
00:15:04 <PleasingFungus> oh, I see, we're back to the gauge
00:15:12 <Patashu> noise gauge, one = is one tile's worth of noise last turn
00:15:12 <Patashu> yeah
00:15:17 <gammafunk> every lava orc in trunk gets a temperature gauge and an awesome gauge
00:15:18 <Patashu> what could you make it but a gauge?
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00:15:23 <gammafunk> and a coolness gauge
00:15:23 <Patashu> anything else is like
00:15:25 <Patashu> 'this is meaningless'
00:15:28 <gammafunk> becuase there are no LO in trunk
00:15:30 <PleasingFungus> didn't the old noise meter get removed
00:15:36 <Patashu> 'old noise meter'?
00:15:38 <Patashu> in what version
00:15:41 <PleasingFungus> oh it's just in the spell description
00:15:47 <PleasingFungus> that's probably what i was thinking of
00:16:00 <Patashu> but yeah
00:16:04 <Patashu> if noise meter is going to be a thing
00:16:04 <ChangeAj> ya you could add all the noise stuff in description if you wanted
00:16:06 <Patashu> it needs to be on by default
00:16:11 <PleasingFungus> yes of course
00:16:11 <Patashu> or it caters to pro users only
00:16:18 <Patashu> who already know what the noise of everything is b/c they read the spoilers
00:16:45 <PleasingFungus> the only concern is that it might confuse players - "I wasn't making any noise, but that monster still woke up while I was sneaking toward it!"
00:16:59 <PleasingFungus> well. not the 'only' concern
00:17:05 <Patashu> well
00:17:10 <gammafunk> why do we need a noise gauge again
00:17:10 <Patashu> having silence up makes monsters even MORE likely to wake up
00:17:19 <ChangeAj> you could color the text description corresponding to noise but that messes up color blind people
00:17:23 <Patashu> gammafunk: because noise is opaque, completely unexplained, completely unmeasured yet incredibly important
00:17:29 <PleasingFungus> ^
00:17:32 <PleasingFungus> I was going to type something out but
00:17:34 <PleasingFungus> it's that
00:17:39 <minmay> gammafunk: did you know that a giant club is 66% louder than a giant spiked club
00:17:50 <gammafunk> why do we need a noise gauge again
00:17:59 <PleasingFungus> are you deaf? we just said!
00:18:13 <PleasingFungus> (look, look, I made a joke)
00:18:18 <Patashu> ^
00:18:28 <gammafunk> seems that we could simplify some noise mechanics a bit
00:18:38 <gammafunk> rather than giving a noise bar
00:18:48 <PleasingFungus> I agree that we can simplify some noise mechanics
00:18:54 <PleasingFungus> e.g. some of the stuff that minmay's bringing up
00:18:58 <eb_> does anyone even really care about noise
00:19:00 <eb_> besides minqmay
00:19:01 <minmay> noise overlay does sound cooler than noise bar btw
00:19:03 <PleasingFungus> but that won't change the fact that noise is important
00:19:11 <Patashu> eb_: noise is important
00:19:12 <Patashu> especially
00:19:16 <Patashu> when noise you are making extends beyond los
00:19:19 <Patashu> you're waking stuff up
00:19:24 <Patashu> and I would like to know when I am doing that and when I am not
00:19:25 <eb_> yes but beyond "this doesn't do much noise" and "this does a ton of noise"
00:19:32 <gammafunk> right
00:19:37 <Patashu> well how about 'you made noise past los' and 'you didn't' then
00:19:39 <Patashu> would that be ok
00:19:44 <gammafunk> I mean we need an overlay for every game mechanic I guess
00:19:47 <eb_> that sounds reasonable
00:19:52 <eb_> but still
00:19:53 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: what else would need an overlay?
00:20:13 <minmay> careful on that slope gammafunk
00:20:15 <minmay> it looks slippery
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00:20:15 <Patashu> pleasingfungus: bcadren's flowing winds branch
00:20:21 <PleasingFungus> huh
00:20:26 <Patashu> it was going to have like
00:20:27 <Patashu> realistic looking winds
00:20:28 <PleasingFungus> I am clearly behind on my bcadren lore
00:20:32 <Patashu> flowing through all of it
00:20:42 <ChangeAj> did it effect player movement
00:20:46 <Patashu> yes
00:20:54 <minmay> it's bcadren, do you even have to ask
00:20:59 <Patashu> ^
00:21:01 <PleasingFungus> tbf
00:21:08 <ChangeAj> god damn I'm in a tornado all the time sounds great
00:21:10 <PleasingFungus> a flowing winds branch that didn't affect player movement would be kinda pointless
00:21:11 <Patashu> and the joke is that you'd need at least two overlays to understand everything going on in it
00:21:19 <gammafunk> we need a nutrition overly obviously, and an overlay for piety gain
00:21:31 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: neither of those things make any sense as overlays!
00:21:32 <gammafunk> I'm sure I can think of some more critical overlays
00:21:37 <PleasingFungus> please be serious
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00:21:51 <gammafunk> people have argued for a food meter, yes
00:21:51 <eb_> just make a HugeDmg thing for noise
00:21:52 <eb_> there
00:21:59 <eb_> numbers people appeased
00:22:01 <minmay> better get rid of that HP bar, players only need to know if its at 0 or not
00:22:20 <eb_> then again I particularly hate HugeDmg
00:22:28 <ChangeAj> please make the hp bar only as accurate as it can be in ascii
00:22:28 <eb_> since it tells you something the game already tells you
00:22:29 <johlstei> any time you are below 50% you just het
00:22:30 <johlstei> get
00:22:30 <Patashu> You shout for attention!
00:22:32 <johlstei> health: low
00:22:33 <Patashu> Huge Noise: 12 (gained 12)
00:22:43 <Patashu> johlstei: and the borders of the map get tinted red
00:22:44 <minmay> health: choko
00:22:49 <gammafunk> crawl is not playable without your noise value
00:22:54 <Patashu> 'Get behind cover to regain health!'
00:23:01 <PleasingFungus> minmay: it's hard to argue that noise meters are as important as hp meters when, uh, people have gotten by so far
00:23:17 <johlstei> make a hidden hp race
00:23:21 <Patashu> pleasingfungus: crawl would be beatable without an hp meter
00:23:22 <Patashu> (see: brogue)
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00:23:22 <PleasingFungus> (I'm still agreeing that it should be surfaced)
00:23:25 <Bloaxor> call it mummies
00:23:27 <ChangeAj> I think you can be a lot more vague than a noise meter
00:23:34 <ChangeAj> just put some noise description in text
00:23:47 <minmay> PleasingFungus: the idea is to illustrate the silliness of gammafunk's slippery slope argument by making one in the opposite direction
00:24:06 <PleasingFungus> I think neither of those arguments are very useful, and are in fact actively degrading the quality of discourse!
00:24:13 <PleasingFungus> :)
00:24:16 <eb_> mission accomplished?
00:24:20 <PleasingFungus> :(
00:24:30 <eb_> would you say
00:24:33 <eb_> there is noise in the discussion
00:24:36 <PleasingFungus> ...
00:24:39 <gammafunk> o/
00:25:10 <PleasingFungus> rip gammafunk. he put out his ascii hand, and was left hanging...
00:25:13 <PleasingFungus> forever!
00:26:14 <gammafunk> no he just didn't want to make noise
00:26:18 <gammafunk> no noise overlay after all
00:28:45 <PleasingFungus> ugh. I wonder if it'd be simpler to just make 1-shot teleporters their own trap_type
00:29:26 <PleasingFungus> I can make TRAP_TELEPORTER *work* correctly, but I can't make it *named* or *described* correctly...
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00:39:26 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-1555-g728ed82: Remove one of the three lists of trap names 10(57 minutes ago, 1 file, 5+ 31-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=728ed823bafd
00:39:26 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-1556-gec9a4c1: Remove a three-year-old commented-out code block 10(27 minutes ago, 1 file, 0+ 10-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ec9a4c18528d
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00:40:02 <Bloaxor> We'll keep it just in case so that it can be removed by a guy we never knew would come and remove it.
00:40:21 <PleasingFungus> makes sense
00:45:41 <minmay> gotta get his marvinpa ratio up
00:46:08 <PleasingFungus> what ratio is that?
00:46:20 <minmay> your marvinpa ratio is the ratio of lines removed to lines added
00:46:29 <PleasingFungus> ahh
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00:58:17 <rchandra> ??top deleters
00:58:17 <Sequell> I don't have a page labeled top_deleters in my learndb.
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01:27:07 <PleasingFungus> looks like hall_of_zot can still generate dart traps
01:27:21 <PleasingFungus> since it has "any trap" blocking the lungs, and any trap will generate dart traps
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01:27:32 <PleasingFungus> probably someone less tired should fix that
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01:35:11 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-1557-g928a14f: Remove dart traps from Zot:5 10(2 minutes ago, 1 file, 3+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=928a14f97509
01:43:47 <Bloaxor> the traps run out of ammo though
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01:46:29 <PleasingFungus> Bloaxor: so?
01:47:00 <Bloaxor> it's an unfunny joke because they don't have any ammo
01:47:07 <Bloaxor> because darts don't exist
01:47:26 <PleasingFungus> o
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02:00:35 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-1558-g235eb28: Remove the book of War Chants (LorrdErnie) 10(29 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=235eb2827f5d
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02:18:29 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1558-g235eb28 (34)
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02:23:07 <Bloaxor> Having torn up hell today, I can attest that it's nothing but a huge chore.
02:23:43 <Bloaxor> it's six floors of the same hide and seek game with the downwards staircases
02:23:50 <Bloaxor> four times in a row
02:28:28 <rchandra> I enjoyed my hell dive today, tough it may have been due to not getting statrot hell effects much
02:28:33 <rchandra> *though
02:29:17 <Bloaxor> i literally slaughtered cerebov the moment he accidentally stumbled into me
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02:29:27 <Bloaxor> hell fodder was but an annoyance at that point
02:29:49 <Bloaxor> except then you have to play hide and seek with the god damn stairs for all of twenty four floors
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02:31:36 <eb_> twenty four stair chases keeps bad chars from getting hell runes tho
02:31:37 <Bloaxor> and that's after trekking floor after floor of pandemonium fodder in search of the proper floors since you already killed hellion island
02:32:07 <eb_> if you killed hellion island and slaughtered cerebov
02:32:10 <eb_> your char might be a little off the average curve
02:32:16 <Bloaxor> a little bit
02:32:41 <Bloaxor> a truly glorious amputee
02:33:00 <eb_> I'm not fundamentally against changing hell but if you want it shortened it also needs to become exponentially more brutal
02:33:29 <Bloaxor> isn't that a job for the lord vaults
02:33:53 <eb_> a single dangerous vault won't keep as many people out
02:33:58 <Bloaxor> it's pretty rough killing a couple of sentinels at once
02:33:59 <eb_> of a hell branch
02:35:21 <eb_> I suppose non bottom floors could have a more clear indication of where the stairs are
02:35:52 <eb_> so it's more of a "can you get to the stairs" instead of "can you find the stairs"
02:36:01 <eb_> I accidentally a word
02:36:43 <Bloaxor> "Can you get to the stairs" would be infinitely better than "HA HA GOOD LUCK FINDING THE STAIRS".
02:36:45 <eb_> anyway, if stairs are more clearly say on opposite sides of hell floors, you both don't need to "find" them anymore, and you also avoid freebies
02:37:17 <eb_> like when a staircase is right next to where you arrived
02:37:52 <Bloaxor> or you happen to come across the staircase-up/staircase-down-in-a-glass-box vault
02:38:18 <eb_> still, I'm not sure this is better than what we have now, at least for chars that cannot just stomp hell until they find the staircases (in which case honestly the entire game is a bit of a chore)
02:38:50 <eb_> taking too long finding stairs representing an actual risk to the character sounds good to me
02:39:02 <Bloaxor> well getting ten runes in ~14000 turns with massive wandering stretches should tell the tale of said character
02:40:04 <eb_> whoops I mixed up things up there; I meant that the game is a chore for chars that can just stomp anything
02:40:33 <Bloaxor> yes i got that
02:40:42 <Bloaxor> tomb is still somewhat alright though
02:40:55 <Bloaxor> because it doesn't even try to hide things from you
02:42:23 <eb_> also ten runes in ~14k doesn't sound out of the ordinary
02:42:38 <eb_> I'm not even sure if you're trying to say that was fast or slow
02:42:52 <Bloaxor> it doesn't until you realize just how much time i spent walking around looking for runes
02:44:26 <eb_> yes turns spent manually picking where you go instead of autoexploring go slower, I'm still not sure what you're implying; your char was probably good enough to autoexplore hells for stairs
02:46:15 <Bloaxor> killing enemies was the most boring part
02:46:25 <Bloaxor> so autoexploring wouldn't really help at all
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02:47:07 <Bloaxor> either way let's not floor #dev
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03:51:01 <|amethyst> Lasty:  I would suggest not using nested div_rand_rounds like you do in 6b79e027
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03:51:30 <|amethyst> Lasty:  also, I'm not sure that the commit message is correct: it says Power Leap should do slightly more damage now at max XL
03:51:53 <|amethyst> Lasty:  but the piety/9 changed to piety/12, and that's before the skill divisor
03:51:59 <|amethyst> Lasty:  err, before the XP divisor
03:54:05 <|amethyst> Lasty:  for the div_rand_round thing, instead of  int die_size = 1 + div_rand_round(div_rand_round(pow, 10) * (54 + you.experience_level), 81);   maybe  int die_size = 1 + div_rand_round(pow * (54 + you.experience_level), 810);
03:59:17 <|amethyst> Lasty:  also, I'm not sure what to do about rod of striking
03:59:57 <|amethyst> Lasty:  whether to leave it working normally (and mark it as non-useless) or to never spend charges and have it hit like a club
04:00:29 <|amethyst> Lasty:  AFAICT that's the only item ?recharge is useful for (ignoring silly things like troves)
04:02:27 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-1532-g4ba75ba: Iashol: Amnesia forbidden schools 10(31 hours ago, 4 files, 67+ 31-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=4ba75ba1bdb7
04:02:27 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-1533-g8933f9a: Iashol: Offer monks the first sacrifice right away 10(31 hours ago, 1 file, 4+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8933f9a0ea14
04:02:27 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-1534-g3aeb606: Iashol: Fix No Ability 10(9 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3aeb606c5e1d
04:02:27 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-1535-g8fb9090: Iashol: Turn off Amulet of Faith 10(8 hours ago, 3 files, 7+ 3-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=8fb9090eeb0d
04:02:27 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-1536-gd62f7b7: Iashol: make cataclysm loud 10(8 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=d62f7b747f27
04:02:27 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-1537-g6b79e02: Iashol: peg damaging abilities to XL 10(8 hours ago, 1 file, 11+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6b79e0275b31
04:02:27 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-1538-g060682b: Iashol: Mark useless items as useless 10(7 hours ago, 2 files, 26+ 7-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=060682be3379
04:02:27 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-1539-g67417a26: Correct misc item uselessness checks. 10(17 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=67417a26a162
04:02:27 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-1540-g770e558: Simplify. 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=770e5581f663
04:02:27 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-1541-g89bfc8e: Formatting fixes. 10(7 minutes ago, 3 files, 6+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=89bfc8e8623c
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04:05:57 <Sizzell> Experimental (iashol) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1541-g89bfc8e
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06:02:08 <Lasty_> !messages
06:02:08 <Sequell> No messages for Lasty_.
06:02:24 <|amethyst> Lasty_:  I wrote a bunch of stuff above
06:02:30 <|amethyst> but didn't !tell it
06:02:45 <Lasty_> Oh, then I'll see it when I get in to work :)
06:03:05 <Lasty_> Only my work account stays conncted
06:03:07 <|amethyst> ??crawl-dev
06:03:08 <Sequell> ##crawl-dev[1/1]: The IRC channel for Crawl development and design. Many but not all devs frequent the channel. To join, "/join ##crawl-dev". Logs are at http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ .
06:03:22 <Lasty_> nice
06:03:29 <|amethyst> Lasty_:  around 03:51 today
06:04:24 <Lasty_> ah, good points
06:04:26 <Lasty_> all of them
06:04:47 <Lasty_> I agree about rod of striking -- it shouldn't spend charges
06:04:53 <Lasty_> and thus recharging should be useless
06:06:15 <Lasty_> lemme see how much of that I can get through this morning
06:06:26 <Lasty_> the time-consuming part is compiling/testing :p
06:06:41 <Bloaxor> Lasty_: well obviously people won't be sending messages to Lasty_
06:08:30 <Lasty_> I linked Lasty_ to Lasty
06:08:36 <Lasty_> so I think they share messages
06:09:00 <Lasty_> or maybe that's not how that works :p
06:09:17 <Bloaxor> /nick Lasty
06:09:33 <Bloaxor> and watch in awe as you have mail
06:09:52 <Lasty_> Well, I'll get that later when I check from my other machine
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06:40:28 <|amethyst> Lasty_:  oh, another thing I mentioned yesterday
06:41:15 <|amethyst> Lasty_:  the potion/scroll sacrifices don't feel like they trigger very often after the min/max fix
06:42:13 <|amethyst> Lasty_:  but this was a moderate-AC character
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06:45:55 <Lasty_> |amethyst: I just pushed a patch for that along with the other two things we discussed and a piety gain issue
06:46:19 <Lasty_> The new formula for determining when it applies is way better
06:46:43 <Lasty_> there are 4 new patches in all, pushed just now
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06:52:51 <|amethyst> !tell Lasty had to rebase them since I already had some commits of my own pushed to the branch
06:52:51 <Sequell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let lasty know.
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07:38:24 <Lasty> !messages
07:38:24 <Sequell> (1/2) Bloaxor said (8h 17m 6s ago): Amulets of faith increasing piety gain kind of already work because you still have to make the decision of whether or not you want to sacrifice more things after taking it off.
07:38:45 <Lasty> !messages
07:38:45 <Sequell> No messages for Lasty.
07:39:24 <Lasty> !tell Bloaxor Yeah, but I think you can overall manage to have fewer sacrifices if you start w/ amulet of faith, and that's not ideal.
07:39:24 <Sequell> Lasty: OK, I'll let bloaxor know.
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07:55:16 <Lasty> !tell |amethyst Just noticed an issue with the patch to change no drink/no scroll: it's checking hp on line 884-906 and damage is applied to hp on line 951. That block probably needs to be moved to just after 951.
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07:55:16 <Sequell> Lasty: OK, I'll let |amethyst know.
07:55:55 <TZer0> !messages
07:55:55 <Sequell> No messages for TZer0.
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08:14:09 <|amethyst> Lasty:  it might be okay, since it's a 15% chance at full hp anyway
08:14:10 <Sequell> |amethyst: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
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08:19:56 <Lasty> yeah, but if you take a big hit (crystal spear) you'll have a much lower chance than you should
08:20:47 <|amethyst> True
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08:23:23 <|amethyst> later might be better even, so the message come after the HP warning and you don't get it when you die?
08:24:06 <TZer0> quick question, how do the new weapon-enchantments work?
08:24:10 <|amethyst> perhaps _maybe_iashol_retribution could become _iashol_effects and handle both retribution and the pacts
08:24:19 <TZer0> Is it +X acc and damage?
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08:27:06 <|amethyst> yes
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08:27:28 <|amethyst> and the scroll always works (up to the cap of course)
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09:01:44 <Cheibriados> 03aj.k.adamson@gmail.com02 {wheals} 07* 0.15-a0-1559-g23e621c: Message change when putting on ring of teleport when unable to teleport 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=23e621cf0642
09:01:44 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.15-a0-1560-g1137a02: Make profane servitors ignore holy wrath, like holy energy (#7089). 10(14 hours ago, 7 files, 16+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=1137a02fa7c1
09:01:44 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.15-a0-1561-g10cfb32: Make a hit message less buggy. 10(14 hours ago, 1 file, 4+ 11-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=10cfb32cb67a
09:02:31 <wheals> |amethyst, that should be ChangeAj for the mailmap probably
09:02:50 <wheals> that seems to be his irc nick
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09:06:39 <Lasty> |amethyst: fair point. Getting it when not dead seems good.
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09:06:58 <Lasty> |amethyst: handle which pacts -- the sacrifices/
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09:11:40 <|amethyst> %git 23e621c
09:11:40 <Cheibriados> 07ChangeAj02 {wheals} * 0.15-a0-1559-g23e621c: Message change when putting on ring of teleport when unable to teleport 10(2 days ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=23e621cf0642
09:12:05 <|amethyst> BTW, that's the first time I've seen crawl commits with collisions in the first 6 digits of the hash
09:12:12 <|amethyst> %git 23e6216
09:12:12 <Cheibriados> 07kilobyte02 * 23e62168d129: Trim down Crawl to enums, random, grid and coord functions only. 10(3 years, 8 months ago, 28 files, 5308+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=23e62168d129
09:12:33 <Lasty> haha
09:13:43 <|amethyst> not sure what branch that is
09:15:41 <MarvinPA> one of the stress test things maybe?
09:18:38 <edlothiol> layout, I think
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09:25:38 <wheals> hm, looks like one of my changes didn't get in
09:25:42 <wheals> brb unbreaking compilation
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09:47:30 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.15-a0-1562-g44f5f4b: Unbreak compilation. 10(21 minutes ago, 2 files, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=44f5f4bce3b7
09:47:30 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.15-a0-1563-g716c7cb: Ruin some comments. 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=716c7cbec051
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09:49:15 <Lasty> |amethyst: I didn't understand your comment about _maybe_iashol_retribution
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10:03:38 <|amethyst> Lasty:  I was saying it might make sense to rename it and move the potion/scroll stuff inside there
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10:03:55 <|amethyst> Lasty:  so that the iashol stuff related to taking damage all happens at the same time
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10:04:56 <|amethyst> Lasty:  I guess that would be bad, though, if the mutations became randomly available
10:06:49 <Sizzell> Experimental (iashol) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1541-g89bfc8e
10:07:39 <|amethyst> err, oops
10:07:52 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 {|amethyst} 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-1542-gf45dd94: Iashol: Change -Potion/-Scroll chances 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 10+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f45dd94da7a2
10:07:52 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 {|amethyst} 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-1543-ge97b59b: Iashol: Fix nested div_rand_round 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 5+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e97b59b12046
10:07:52 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 {|amethyst} 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-1544-g31e2b1e: Iashol: Fix extreme piety gain from arcane sacrifices 10(4 hours ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=31e2b1e95d52
10:07:52 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 {|amethyst} 07[iashol] * 0.15-a0-1545-g19f2a35: Iashol: Fix evocable attacks 10(3 hours ago, 2 files, 5+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=19f2a35735b6
10:08:02 <ontoclasm> Lasty: "the Penitent"
10:08:12 <ontoclasm> that's my bikeshed contribution
10:09:01 <Sizzell> Experimental (iashol) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1545-g19f2a35
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10:13:42 <ontoclasm> if monsters only hvae one armour alot, how does nikola have gloves and a cloak
10:13:50 <ontoclasm> slot*
10:14:44 <wheals> notice how he doesn't have a shield
10:14:50 <wheals> his gloves are in his shield slot
10:14:51 <ontoclasm> ah
10:16:11 <wheals> ontoclasm, it dawns on me that the reason you changed gozag invo titles was probably so you could try to get Eat the Rich
10:16:36 <wheals> can't believe it took me 2 weeks to get that
10:16:44 <ontoclasm> erk
10:16:51 * ontoclasm hides under the floor.
10:16:53 <Lasty> ontoclasm: as in god_name the Penitent?
10:17:00 <Lasty> Going for an austerity/guilt theme?
10:17:07 <ontoclasm> yeah
10:17:20 <ontoclasm> wheals: well, also i wanted to improve them in general
10:17:36 <Lasty> wheals: lol
10:17:38 <ontoclasm> ...but i definitely wanted to get Rich in there
10:17:51 <PleasingFungus> !hs eat jiyva
10:17:51 <Sequell> 2. Eat the Royal Jelly (L25 TrHe of Jiyva), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2012-08-06 23:20:20, with 1369301 points after 99473 turns and 9:11:05.
10:17:59 <wheals> !lg eat s=-title
10:18:00 <Sequell> 238 games for eat: Blackguard, Covered, Basher, Magician, Blinker, Crack Shot, Impaler, Jinx, Spry, Spear-Bearer, Exhumer, Cudgeler, Cleaver, Destroyer, Chiller, Royal Jelly, Transmogrifier, Quickloader, Arsonist, Imperceptible, Shield-Bearer, Slicer, 2x Frost Mage, 2x Grasshopper, 2x Black Belt, 2x Severer, 2x Miscreant, 2x Gouger, 2x Grappler, 2x Nimble, 2x Reanimator, 2x Charmwright, 3x Archer,...
10:18:15 <Lasty> Ontoclasm plays the Eat account?
10:18:20 <ontoclasm> yeah
10:18:24 <wheals> eat the grasshopper is pretty nice
10:18:35 <Lasty> Eat the Miscreant is pretty solid
10:18:35 <PleasingFungus> I'
10:18:39 <ontoclasm> eat the politician is pretty good if i can get that
10:18:40 <PleasingFungus> m pretty sure Gastronok got
10:18:42 <PleasingFungus> "eat the magician"
10:18:50 <ontoclasm> hah
10:19:39 <Lasty> ontoclasm: I don't see Iashol as making you sacrifice because you've sinned/are guilty/deserve it
10:19:56 <Lasty> I see it as helping you sacrifice because it's part of the part to power
10:20:14 <ontoclasm> hm
10:20:19 <Lasty> If he gets too self-flagellating, he'd have to be one of the good gods :p
10:20:46 <Lasty> s/part of the part/part of the path/
10:21:28 <|amethyst> Ascetic
10:21:42 <wheals> Omnipotent?
10:22:08 <|amethyst> (ascetic would probably make more sense as one of the player titles)
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10:48:20 <PleasingFungus> ontoclasm: yo
10:48:31 <ontoclasm> hi
10:48:48 <PleasingFungus> so I'm making randomly-generated teleport traps be 1-shots (so once used, they vanish)
10:49:13 <PleasingFungus> and I want to visually distinguish these from old-style permanent teleport traps (still found in vaults and zot:5)
10:49:36 <PleasingFungus> so I'm trying to recolour the sprite but everything I do looks kind of dumb
10:50:04 <ontoclasm> hm
10:50:21 <ontoclasm> what color do you want them to be?
10:51:50 <PleasingFungus> that is a good question. ideally they'd be close enough to the tele trap sprite to be easily recognizable, but not so close that they look identical... I was thinking about mixing in some blue somehow?
10:51:55 <PleasingFungus> idk what I'm doing
10:52:04 <ontoclasm> xD
10:52:18 <ontoclasm> they could be blue, the shape will make it clear that they're the same sort of thing
10:52:26 <ontoclasm> let me give it a shot
10:52:28 <PleasingFungus> aight
10:53:09 <PleasingFungus> https://www.dropbox.com/s/lv2jvi7gabvo1y0/tele.png here is a bad thing
10:53:18 <PleasingFungus> probably it should be less green
10:53:42 <ontoclasm> that looks good; i'd just cut back on the saturation
10:55:20 <PleasingFungus> hm. refresh it?
10:55:26 <PleasingFungus> (I cut back on the saturation)
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10:58:31 <ontoclasm> yeah, that's better
10:59:16 <PleasingFungus> mmm. it might still be too different.... I guess I'll call it good for now, and maybe I or someone else can change it again later.
10:59:29 <minmay> !tell marvinpa deck of wonders doesn't seem worth keeping
10:59:29 <Sequell> minmay: OK, I'll let marvinpa know.
11:00:41 <ontoclasm> PleasingFungus: yeah, i'll take a look when i get back from the dentist
11:00:50 <PleasingFungus> aight
11:00:51 <PleasingFungus> thanks!
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11:02:30 <ontoclasm> lesser servant summons 3s, right
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11:04:09 <|amethyst> ontoclasm:  two 4s (hellwings and orange demons) and the rest 3s (neqoxec, ynoxinul, smoke demon)
11:04:19 <ontoclasm> ah
11:04:27 <ontoclasm> well, close enough
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11:15:30 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.15-a0-1564-g453527f: Remove brown oozes. 10(26 minutes ago, 24 files, 30+ 75-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=453527f43a8e
11:16:24 <ontoclasm> rip
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11:20:38 <Cheibriados> 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.15-a0-1565-g82d525c: Demon summoning icons 10(88 seconds ago, 5 files, 0+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=82d525cfdcb0
11:21:06 <wheals> !send ontoclasm demons in arms
11:21:06 <Sequell> Sending demons in arms to ontoclasm.
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11:21:42 <ontoclasm> everybody knows all brothers are demonic
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11:22:05 <|amethyst> racist
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12:02:53 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.15-a0-1566-g74d4e68: Remove pulsating lumps. 10(7 minutes ago, 26 files, 23+ 111-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=74d4e68c6cc6
12:04:06 <wheals> !tell patashu oh i was wondering how much you thought dart trap removal mattered in zotdef
12:04:06 <Sequell> wheals: OK, I'll let patashu know.
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12:14:28 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1565-g82d525c (34)
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12:34:22 <PleasingFungus> dang. wheals' goin wild' on the remove-o-meter today
12:34:41 <PleasingFungus> at this rate, I'll be able to add three monsters! or more!
12:34:55 <PleasingFungus> (per Rule 1)
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12:35:40 <ais523_> does Rule 1 require the number of monsters to remain constant? or just place a cap?
12:37:12 <MarvinPA> ??rules
12:37:12 <Sequell> rules[1/6]: Remove 5 monsters for every monster you add.
12:37:24 <PleasingFungus> ??changelog
12:37:25 <Sequell> changelog[1/3]: http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/docs/changelog.txt - often incomplete and/or out of date, see {changelog[3]} for an exhaustive list of changes.
12:37:52 <PleasingFungus> so far we're at 15 monsters removed and 2 added
12:38:01 <PleasingFungus> for 0.15
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12:38:31 * ais523_ asks Sequell for the rest of the rules
12:38:40 <MarvinPA> got a lot of making up for monster demonspawn to do still, imo
12:39:11 <PleasingFungus> haha
12:39:22 <MarvinPA> ais523_: you can do "!readall rules" in query to get them all at once
12:39:26 <|amethyst> !seen atomjack
12:39:26 <Sequell> I last saw atomjack at Fri Mar 14 18:20:33 2014 UTC (13w 3d 23h 18m 53s ago) quitting, saying 'Quit: Lost terminal'.
12:39:54 <PleasingFungus> https://loom.shalott.org/learndb.html#rules also works alright
12:39:55 <ais523_> MarvinPA: ooh thanks, didn't know that one
12:40:17 <PleasingFungus> hm. rule 3 hasn't been respected very well
12:40:30 <MarvinPA> it's new-ish, pretty useful
12:41:17 <PleasingFungus> huh. ??rwbarton has been ruined
12:41:19 <PleasingFungus> rip in peace
12:41:19 <Sequell> rip
12:51:02 <Lasty> ??rule[3
12:51:02 <Sequell> rule ~ rules[3/6]: Remove two gods for every god you add.
12:51:12 <Lasty> Has that ever been respected? ;p
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12:51:35 <Eronarn> Lasty: we remove races instead
12:51:36 <Eronarn> rip lorcs
12:52:02 <PleasingFungus> alas
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12:54:35 <Lasty> I'm not sure if adding races just to remove them counts
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13:01:33 <BlastHardcheese> fr lava god
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13:10:32 <Lasty> lava god turns you into a lava orc, and then removes you from the game
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13:13:46 <Cheibriados> 03wheals02 07* 0.15-a0-1567-g6e24b1a: De-rune a vault. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6e24b1addc6f
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13:16:46 <PleasingFungus> huh. I'd think the front of that vault should still be runed
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13:21:34 <wheals> the dreaded 'four oozes and two jellies on d:8"
13:22:55 <PleasingFungus> yeah I changed my mind after looking at it more
13:23:05 <PleasingFungus> but... the slime creature cost....!
13:27:25 <reaverb> On zotdef: I got the impression getting past mid-game without exploiting Ely neutrals, summons, or necromancy is very difficult,  it doesn't seem to be worth having in that state.
13:27:34 <reaverb> It could of course be changed for that not to be true.
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13:33:12 <Sizzell> Experimental (smithgod_rebased) branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-a0-1566-gfa7c0b1
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14:18:59 <Cheibriados> New branch created: bonerider (2 commits)
14:18:59 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07[bonerider] * 0.15-a0-1568-gf7d5d42: Don't do mounted kills of monsters on the stack. 10(10 minutes ago, 1 file, 26+ 15-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=f7d5d422f60a
14:18:59 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07[bonerider] * 0.15-a0-1569-gafcbb9f: New monster: bone rider (Patashu) 10(5 hours ago, 4 files, 43+ 10-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=afcbb9fc6327
14:20:21 <reaverb> Ha.
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14:29:36 <|amethyst> needs a description and tile :)
14:29:54 <|amethyst> and a new name; my mind wasn't dirty enough when I came up with that one :/
14:30:11 <reaverb> Hmm.
14:30:40 <reaverb> Just to clarify: This is serious, correct?
14:30:49 <|amethyst> well
14:30:56 <|amethyst> I don't know whether it would be a good monster
14:30:59 <Basil> !rng yes no
14:30:59 <Sequell> The RNG chooses: yes.
14:31:05 <|amethyst> since I've been to tomb exactly 0 times
14:31:06 <Basil> very serious
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14:54:15 <PleasingFungus> "mummy on a dragon" is just such a hilarious idea
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14:54:36 <PleasingFungus> I really want to help come up with a name etc but it's hard when it's so silly
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14:54:55 <reaverb> It can probably be a unique if not a regular monster.
14:55:06 <reaverb> Mummy Knight?
14:55:09 <|amethyst> would need two uniques
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14:55:17 <PleasingFungus> Or three!
14:55:18 <|amethyst> or some weird logic
14:55:25 <reaverb> Hmm, indeed.
14:55:35 <|amethyst> s@or@and/or@
14:55:45 <PleasingFungus> Could call it a "death knight" if that wasn't already a thing
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14:58:03 <PleasingFungus> "bone lancer", if that wasn't an even dirtier name
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14:58:40 <reaverb> Make Menakuke sometimes spawn later riding a bone dragon.
14:58:50 <Cerpin> Mummy Knight sounds nice
14:59:01 <PleasingFungus> do you just kind of roll your face over your keyboard when typing names?
14:59:04 <|amethyst> Take the veil
14:59:11 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: How do you do it?
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14:59:18 <PleasingFungus> indeed
14:59:26 <PleasingFungus> I really want "dragoon" to be in the name somehow
14:59:31 <PleasingFungus> since it's perfect
14:59:33 <reaverb> Yes I guess I could have looked up "Menkaure:
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14:59:37 <reaverb> err, "menkaure"
15:00:04 <PleasingFungus> I mean crawl's names tend to be silly fantasy nonsense
15:00:27 <PleasingFungus> but your lackadaisical approach to spelling them is still kind of funny
15:00:29 <PleasingFungus> no offense?
15:00:30 <Cerpin> Amethyst: Yes, that is where my name comes from
15:00:44 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: None taken.
15:01:06 <PleasingFungus> aight
15:01:10 <reaverb> Atlhough it's not like I put that much more effort into spelling actual words.
15:01:24 <PleasingFungus> names are funnier
15:01:59 <Cerpin> Embalmed Knight? Idk I'm horrible at names
15:02:01 <PleasingFungus> hm. "tomb dragoon"?
15:02:19 <PleasingFungus> embalmed knight isn't terrible
15:02:55 <PleasingFungus> hm. can we have the dragon be a mummy dragon instead of a bone dragon?
15:02:59 <reaverb> The problem with "Knight"  is we already have knights and none of them ride things.
15:03:05 <PleasingFungus> it'd be much easier to describ
15:03:09 <PleasingFungus> (in a name)
15:03:28 <|amethyst> Could be all boring and name it "mummy rider"
15:03:29 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: Bone dragons -> Mummy dragons would be fine in general.
15:03:37 <PleasingFungus> the lrd nerfs.....!
15:03:58 <PleasingFungus> (but yes)
15:04:09 <Cerpin> Embalmed is a nice way to communicate the mummyness imo, but *shrug*
15:04:53 <reaverb> It would be cute if we could generalize the rider code. So we have some monsters marked "M_RIDER" and other mark "M_MOUNT" and sometimes monsters with the former tag riding the later appear.
15:05:08 <PleasingFungus> do we really want mummies riding wasps
15:05:29 <Lasty> We should have mummies riding everything
15:05:49 <reaverb> Would add some varaince to the Tomb.
15:05:54 <Lasty> Mummytaur: a mummy riding a minotaur
15:05:57 <Cerpin> Mummy riding another mummy
15:06:11 <Lasty> That's a mummytower
15:06:15 <Cerpin> yes
15:06:37 <|amethyst> You see here: a stack of five bone dragons.
15:06:39 <reaverb> This reminds me of how everybody thought unique titles we so great that by the next day they were impelmented.
15:06:41 <Lasty> Mummy of fire: mummy riding orb of fire. Tends not to last very long; death-curses itself.
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15:07:00 <PleasingFungus> reaverb: not sure that waspmummies are going to be a thing
15:07:07 <PleasingFungus> (though I've been wrong in the past!)
15:07:12 <|amethyst> you could have restrictions for size and holiness
15:07:23 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: Oh, I'm not taking about the generalized thing. Just the mummy riders.
15:07:30 <reaverb> s/taking/talking/
15:07:33 <Lasty> Mummy riding an octopode: octosponge.
15:08:02 <reaverb> But yes size and holiness restrictions would probably be done on the off chance the generalized riders were implemented.
15:08:09 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: I'm still not sure that whatever combinations of mount & rider we'll have in future will really mix and match well (if we even want to have more than one or two?)
15:08:40 <PleasingFungus> anyway that's bluesky. let's get back to what's really important: monster names
15:08:48 <reaverb> I'm not even sure how well spriggan riders work. Maybe they would be able to hit player with the yellow wasp paralyze attack?
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15:09:16 <PleasingFungus> well, usually they attack with spears, in which case the yellow wasp attack doesn't make that much sense
15:09:29 <Cheibriados> spriggan rider (12i) | Spd: 10 (move: 60%) | HD: 11 | HP: 46-72 | AC/EV: 1/18 | Dam: 27 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(102) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 809 | Sz: small | Int: high.

15:09:29 <|amethyst> %??spriggan rider
15:09:37 <|amethyst> they don't get the wasp attack
15:09:40 <|amethyst> and it would be weird if they did
15:09:46 <|amethyst> because 'the spriggan rider stings you'
15:09:47 <PleasingFungus> reaverb was suggesting that they should, I think
15:09:47 <reaverb> Oh, yes, forgot about the spear thing.
15:09:55 <PleasingFungus> but yeah
15:09:57 <|amethyst> that's why I didn't give bone riders the claw attacks
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15:10:18 <|amethyst> ("trample" is fine, though, I think)
15:10:48 <|amethyst> I don't think riders and mounts really need to be generalised
15:11:23 <|amethyst> I mean, if a third is added, the logic about who gets what mount should go into a separate function(s?)
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15:11:56 <|amethyst> but I think allowing mixing and matching of riders and mounts would, as PleasingFungus noted, lead to bad or boring mixes
15:11:56 <Cerpin> Mummy...Cavalier?
15:13:26 <PleasingFungus> Mummy Dragon Mummy Rider Mummy
15:13:28 <|amethyst> In a war with the Mummy Roundheads
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15:13:54 <reaverb> Mummy Cavalier sounds good to me.
15:14:22 <reaverb> Althougth maybe spriggans riders should become "Spriggan Cavaliers" in that case.
15:14:41 <Cerpin> Oh, so it has to be ____ rider?
15:15:02 <reaverb> Cerpin: No, just stating maybe spiggans should be changed if the rider bit is changed.
15:15:13 <PleasingFungus> do they need to have the same name format?
15:15:17 <|amethyst> "cavalier" specifically means "horser" though
15:15:28 <reaverb> Seems like this is a flavor vs. clarity trade-off
15:15:32 <Cerpin> Yeah I guess that's true
15:15:59 <PleasingFungus> well, in real life, there weren't any dragons. perhaps if there had been, and if people or other mythical animals had ridden those dragon, they would have been called "cavaliers".
15:16:07 <PleasingFungus> life is filled with mysteries.....
15:16:08 <Cerpin> Mounted Mummy? That's even sillier though
15:16:16 <Lasty> Let's go for clarity first and call it a Mummy On A Dragon
15:16:17 <|amethyst> mummy dragoneer
15:16:30 <Lasty> The mummy on a dragon hits you!!
15:16:32 <Cerpin> I like the ring of that...
15:16:44 <reaverb> |amethyst: Well "Ecumenical" specifically means "differant branches of Christainity, with no other religions" so Cavalier being horses doesn't seem that big a problem.
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15:17:31 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: "mummy dragoon" is still open!
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15:18:02 <reaverb> Oh  mummy dragoon seems decent too.
15:18:06 <PleasingFungus> it's funny because "dragoon" doesn't mean what you'd think it means, but is still an appropriate descriptor
15:18:22 <Cerpin> The word dragoon originally meant mounted infantry, who were trained in horse riding as well as infantry fighting skills. However, usage altered over time and during the 18th century, dragoons evolved into conventional light cavalry units and personnel.
15:18:33 <reaverb> I am rather surprised that is an actual word. I just assumed it was something D&D made up.
15:18:38 <PleasingFungus> haha
15:18:44 <Lasty> haha
15:18:48 <reaverb> Like lajatang.
15:18:49 <|amethyst> but the name does come from "dragon"
15:18:50 <PleasingFungus> tomb dragoon, embalmed dragoon, death dragoon, friendly funtimes goodpal dragoon
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15:20:24 <|amethyst> I thought a dragoon was a guy with a spear who jumped a lot
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15:21:02 <Lasty> Mummy on a dragon. Mummy on a dragon!
15:21:03 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: did you get my key "dragon dragoon" suggestion before that half-second netsplit
15:21:03 <Cerpin> Since it would be weird to handle if the mount was killed
15:21:03 -!- Zermako2 is now known as Zermako
15:21:03 <PleasingFungus> oh right, spriggan riders keep their name when their mount is killed, right?
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15:21:24 <Cerpin> Like it would either have to stay as death dragoon or change to greater mummy or something eventually
15:21:42 <Cerpin> Both would seem really weird to me if it's equivalent to an unmounted monster
15:22:09 <reaverb> Ah a netsplit :(
15:22:09 <reaverb> At least Sequell is elsewhere so we can just look at the logs.
15:22:09 <reaverb> I hope we don't lose all our devs again.
15:22:32 <|amethyst> not the monster name
15:22:44 <|amethyst> not the common name I mean
15:22:49 <|amethyst> it keeps its proper name
15:23:05 <|amethyst> Fred the spriggan rider -> Fred the spriggan
15:23:13 <|amethyst> (but not Fred the yellow wasp)
15:23:49 <Cerpin> I guess if the tile for the standalone monster is different, whenever that gets made, it wouldn't be too weird, would it?
15:24:09 <|amethyst> ontoclasm:  want to pick one at #8645 ?  Or do your own background?
15:24:13 <Cerpin> But then you'd have two identical monsters with a different tile or something like that...
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15:25:21 <PleasingFungus> hi gammafunk
15:25:21 <|amethyst> I don't think they should have the same name
15:25:28 <|amethyst> the same common name
15:26:42 <PleasingFungus> I'm looking at this monster now and I really hate to say it but I'm not sure I "get" it. it is literally a greater mummy with more hd and damage. does crawl really need a greater greater mummy
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15:27:28 <PleasingFungus> idk maybe I'm missing key tomb dragoon facts
15:27:37 <|amethyst> !tell ontoclasm In case you missed that in the netsplit:  want to pick one of the titlescreens at #8645 ?  Or do your own background?  It kind of got led hanging
15:27:38 <Sequell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know.
15:28:00 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  it tramples too
15:28:14 <PleasingFungus> wow
15:28:22 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  like I said, I didn't know if it would actually be a good monster :)
15:28:38 <PleasingFungus> I think the basic idea is cute but it probably doesn't need to be a greater greater mummy
15:28:45 <|amethyst> but making it weaker than a greater mummy seemed silly if half-killing it turns it into a greater mummy
15:28:50 <|amethyst> could use a mummy priest instead
15:28:55 <PleasingFungus> yes I was going to suggest that
15:28:58 <|amethyst> or guardian mummy and avoid the spells
15:29:16 <|amethyst> (the summoning is weird, because the bone dragon is enough to maintain the summons)
15:29:28 <|amethyst> that could probably be fixed by getting a new mid for the surviving half
15:29:41 <|amethyst> at least, if the surviving half is the unintelligent one
15:30:08 <PleasingFungus> I mean, sort of the point of it was having a torment dragon, so gmummy doesn't make that much sense. not sure how fond I am of a dragon that summons, though
15:30:10 <PleasingFungus> idk
15:30:33 <PleasingFungus> !tell ontoclasm Bloax also made a variant of his purple-flames version that had teal flames instead - you could ask if him for that if you like the sound of it
15:30:34 <Sequell> PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know.
15:30:56 <gammafunk> I think one area that might be good for tomb is (undead) fast-moving melee + some interesting thing, and I guess this meets that definition
15:31:02 <PleasingFungus> it's speed 10
15:31:06 <PleasingFungus> though you could change that ofc
15:31:09 <gammafunk> ah, then it's not very interesting yeah
15:31:21 <|amethyst> it's bone dragon speed, yes
15:31:26 <Cheibriados> bone dragon (15D) | Spd: 10 | HD: 20 | HP: 153-205 | AC/EV: 20/4 | Dam: 30, 20, 2007(trample) | 07undead, evil, sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(106), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3694 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal.

15:31:26 <|amethyst> %??bone dragon
15:31:32 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: still thinkin about those scarabs btw!!!
15:31:33 <Cheibriados> greater mummy (16M) | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 186-210 | AC/EV: 10/6 | Dam: 35 | 07undead, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 6192 | Sp: sum.demon, smiting (7-17), s.torment, sum.undead | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

15:31:33 <|amethyst> %??greater mummy
15:31:39 <Cheibriados> mummy priest (05M) | Spd: 8 | HD: 10 | HP: 52-76 | AC/EV: 8/7 | Dam: 30 | 07undead, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, priest, evil, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1092 | Sp: sum.demon, smiting (7-17), s.torment, sum.undead | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

15:31:39 <|amethyst> %??mummy priest
15:31:39 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: death scarab rider
15:31:53 <PleasingFungus> !send gammafunk mummy spriggans
15:31:53 <Sequell> Sending mummy spriggans to gammafunk.
15:32:06 <gammafunk> hey, felid mummies, bcadren showed us the way
15:32:22 <PleasingFungus> one by one, every element of bcrawl will be implemented.
15:32:25 <PleasingFungus> it is inevitable.
15:32:44 <gammafunk> it's probably the only way we'll ever be rid of the minmay menace
15:33:06 <PleasingFungus> don't kid yourself. minmay is unstoppable.
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15:34:31 <gammafunk> new rule, every new monster you add has to have a "rider version"
15:34:58 <gammafunk> to replace the "player species monster" meme that's been deprecated
15:35:01 <PleasingFungus> replace rule 1. let chaos reign
15:35:20 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: combine them. felid mummies riding death scarabs
15:35:29 <PleasingFungus> vine stalkers riding formicids
15:35:30 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: that revive on death?
15:35:46 <PleasingFungus> they already ran out of lives!!! otherwise they wouldn't be mummies
15:35:47 <PleasingFungus> TRY to keep up
15:36:07 <gammafunk> hrm, I think we need someone to fully work out the lore in order for me to be convinced
15:36:13 <|amethyst> You are now a BORING beetle.
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15:36:40 <PleasingFungus> crawl has gone too long without a comprehensive & robust "reincarnation" system.
15:36:51 <PleasingFungus> welcome back!
15:37:16 <PleasingFungus> for the five seconds before the next netsplit
15:37:30 <|amethyst> Instead of permadeath: when you die, if you didn't win to earn yourself a good reincarnation, you come back on D:1 as a giant cockroach
15:37:39 <gammafunk> my shock at doing git pull and seeing the new branch "bonerider" was genuine, and for some reason I went directly to GDD
15:37:52 <|amethyst> giant cockroaches can't use items or level or anything like that
15:38:05 <gammafunk> and then I saw a post by koboldlord about bone dragons, and the terrible truth was revealed
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15:38:30 <PleasingFungus> tbf they are kind of boring
15:38:32 <PleasingFungus> (bone dragons)
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15:38:55 <gammafunk> yeah, the only issue for their removal is what to do with yred, I guess; as a player summon they're cool
15:38:58 <Lasty> FR: bone dragons -> bore dragons
15:39:17 <|amethyst> what if bone dragons were made fast?
15:39:20 <gammafunk> they could exist only as players summons, I guess
15:39:29 <Lasty> |amethyst: the only fast dragon is quicksilver
15:39:45 <|amethyst> the others have restrictive skin in the way!
15:39:50 <Cerpin> Mummy on a quicksilver dragon. What could go wrong
15:39:54 <reaverb> |amethyst: That seems even more confusing, I would want to change it to something which is not a dragon in that case.
15:39:55 <Lasty> quicksilver dragons don't have skin?
15:39:57 <|amethyst> bone dragons are light and nimbe
15:40:02 <|amethyst> Lasty:  liquid skin
15:40:17 <reaverb> (The original confusion being that bone dragons and dragon skeletons are no the same monster)
15:40:27 <gammafunk> I think they're mostly there because of the "extremely powerful dragon made of bones" theme in a lot of RPGS
15:40:36 <Lasty> e.g. dracolich
15:40:50 <gammafunk> but shadow dragons cover the drain breath thing
15:40:52 <Lasty> usually the extremely powerful bone dragons have spells or vampiric attacks or something
15:40:58 <gammafunk> We can't give them ghostly flames breath
15:41:11 <Lasty> Vampiric breath?
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15:41:17 <|amethyst> we have draining clouds now
15:41:46 <reaverb> Oh, draining clouds sound fun.
15:41:50 <PleasingFungus> still might be too close to shadow dragons
15:41:53 <|amethyst> I guess that's kind of close to shadow dragon
15:41:56 <|amethyst> what PF said
15:42:28 <PleasingFungus> honestly I would probably just, as gammafunk said, remove them from normal generation and keep them as summons. that also makes them more special for yredites, which is neat
15:42:38 <reaverb> And a vampirc attack would overllap with vamprie mosquitos.
15:42:55 <reaverb> Yes removal from normal generation sounds good.
15:42:56 <gammafunk> yeah and profane servitors, also yred gifts, always have a vampiric attack iirc
15:43:01 <Cheibriados> profane servitor (05A) | Spd: 15 | HD: 18 | HP: 130-174 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Dam: 2505(vampiric), 1013(drain) | 07undead, 10items, 10doors, fighter, priest, evil, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(192), 02cold, 10elec++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 08holy, 13torm | XP: 3908 | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

15:43:01 <gammafunk> %??profane_servitor
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15:43:06 <gammafunk> yeah
15:43:09 <PleasingFungus> on a tangential note, does anyone know why wheals made profane servitors resist holy
15:43:22 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  so what replaces them in crypt and hell branches?
15:43:30 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  they already resisted some holy
15:43:34 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  he made it consistent
15:43:53 <gammafunk> I guess it's justifiable since they're kind of still "angels"
15:43:55 <PleasingFungus> yeah, but why not make it consistent by making them resist no holy
15:43:57 <PleasingFungus> it's just weird
15:43:58 <PleasingFungus> idk
15:44:04 <Cheibriados> profane servitor (05A) | Spd: 15 | HD: 18 | HP: 127-174 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Dam: 2505(vampiric), 1013(drain) | 07undead, 10items, 10doors, fighter, priest, evil, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(192), 02cold, 10elec++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 08holy, 13torm | XP: 3906 | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

15:44:04 <|amethyst> %0.14?profane servitor
15:44:25 <gammafunk> yeah I guess even if you can argue for it thematically, it's a bit confusing since the player wouldn't expect it
15:44:33 <gammafunk> don't think it would show in xv, but maybe it does?
15:44:39 <reaverb> I wonder why bone dragons spawned in so many places.
15:44:59 <rchandra> !decay should probably be replaced with !lichform
15:45:04 <gammafunk> reaverb: they're simple enemies, kind of like late-game death yaks
15:45:23 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: for replacements, how would servitors work?
15:45:30 <|amethyst> reaverb:  Crypt and Hells because they're flying beefy undead, Zot because they're dragons
15:45:43 <reaverb> Hmm.
15:45:49 <reaverb> Should I replace them with anything?
15:45:52 <gammafunk> yeah, they fit in pretty much anywhere, they're just not that great
15:46:00 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  I don't know, too much aura might be bad
15:46:03 <PleasingFungus> oh
15:46:05 <PleasingFungus> true
15:46:06 <PleasingFungus> hm
15:46:36 <PleasingFungus> if you made them fast and trimmed down their hp a ton, would they be decent?
15:46:46 <gammafunk> hrm, they don't much need replacement in zot; I think servitors in crypt/hell make sense; bone dragons aren't especially common, but I don't know their current weigths there
15:47:02 <PleasingFungus> bone dragon lite
15:47:09 <Cheibriados> bone dragon (15D) | Spd: 10 | HD: 20 | HP: 153-205 | AC/EV: 20/4 | Dam: 30, 20, 2007(trample) | 07undead, evil, sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(106), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3694 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal.

15:47:09 <gammafunk> %??bone_dragon
15:47:15 <PleasingFungus> bone drago
15:47:19 <Cheibriados> death cob (08%) | Spd: 25 | HD: 10 | HP: 49-80 | AC/EV: 10/15 | Dam: 20 | 07undead, 10doors, evil | Res: 06magic(40), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1016 | Sz: tiny | Int: normal.

15:47:19 <gammafunk> %??death_cob
15:47:32 <gammafunk> that's probably what you'd end up with, a death cob
15:47:36 <gammafunk> but one that tramples
15:47:37 <PleasingFungus> compare damage plz
15:47:51 <PleasingFungus> also I probably would go with speed 15 instead of 20
15:47:52 <PleasingFungus> and flying
15:47:55 <|amethyst> what is the problem with bone dragons?  That they're confusable with dragon skeletons or that they're normal speed melee-only enemeies?
15:48:00 <|amethyst> s/meie/mie/
15:48:22 <PleasingFungus> the actual problem is that they're normal-speed melee enemies with a lot of hp and not a lot of punch
15:48:22 <gammafunk> yeah it's combination of normal speed and the fact that they can only melee, yet they're supposed to be a late-game threat
15:48:25 <PleasingFungus> proportionately
15:48:43 <PleasingFungus> the dragon skeleton confusion thing is not really a big deal one way or another
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15:49:07 <|amethyst> hm
15:49:15 <Cheibriados> harpy (03H) | Spd: 25 | HD: 7 | HP: 25-53 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Dam: 19, 14 | fly | Res: 06magic(28), 03poison | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 624 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.

15:49:15 <gammafunk> %??harpy
15:49:36 <|amethyst> so if the rider were nerfed into a mummy priest or a lich or something on top, and bone dragons spawns were replaced with those?
15:49:39 <Cheibriados> ghoul (05n) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 129-165 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 3004(rot), 30 | 07undead, 10doors, 04eats corpses, evil | Res: 06magic(93), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 04rot | XP: 1547 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.

15:49:39 <gammafunk> %??ghoul
15:49:47 <reaverb> |amethyst: Also not being a threat.
15:49:51 <|amethyst> with the bone dragon remaining as the ridee
15:50:21 <PleasingFungus> hahaha lich rider yesss
15:50:26 <PleasingFungus> oh my god yes
15:50:43 <Cerpin> That would be better thematically probably...
15:50:47 <reaverb> So to be clear removing bone dragons from normal generation should probably weight until this issue is further discussed correct?
15:50:51 <PleasingFungus> wait. why don't we just skip the riding part and make it a dracolich
15:50:58 <PleasingFungus> reaverb: yes probably, there seem to be a lot of ideas floating around
15:51:17 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  because it's amusing to knock a lich off a dragon?
15:51:21 <PleasingFungus> oh right crawl dragons aren't intelligent. hm. okay
15:51:23 <PleasingFungus> also that
15:51:39 <PleasingFungus> also the mental image of a lich on a dragon is really funny
15:52:15 <Cheibriados> unknown monster: "great_mummy"

15:52:15 <gammafunk> %??great_mummy
15:52:19 <Cheibriados> greater mummy (16M) | Spd: 10 | HD: 15 | HP: 186-210 | AC/EV: 10/6 | Dam: 35 | 07undead, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, evil, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 13magic(immune), 02cold, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 6192 | Sp: sum.demon, smiting (7-17), s.torment, sum.undead | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

15:52:19 <gammafunk> %??greater_mummy
15:52:26 <PleasingFungus> no such thing as a great mummy imo
15:52:34 <gammafunk> ok, I'm thinking a speed 15 enemy with hp range of 100-130 maybe
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15:52:57 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: this is for the "simple melee enemy with more reasonable stats" bone dragon variant I was suggesting?
15:53:03 <PleasingFungus> because that's around what I was thinking, yeah
15:53:04 <gammafunk> yeah
15:53:25 <gammafunk> looking at the effective damage, it'd be like a harpy (that wasn't batty) with an additional effective 1d30
15:53:37 <gammafunk> assuming the player is normal speed
15:53:51 <gammafunk> and with more hp (and not batty so it'd hit more effectively)
15:53:57 <Lightli> that seems goddamn terrifying
15:53:59 <PleasingFungus> and 20 ac
15:54:01 <Cheibriados> harpy (03H) | Spd: 25 | HD: 7 | HP: 25-53 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Dam: 19, 14 | fly | Res: 06magic(28), 03poison | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 624 | Sz: Medium | Int: normal.

15:54:01 <Lightli> %??harpy
15:54:01 <gammafunk> right
15:54:02 <PleasingFungus> hm
15:54:06 <Cheibriados> jiangshi (08V) | Spd: 18 (move: 60%) | HD: 10 | HP: 49-81 | AC/EV: 10/10 | Dam: 2705(vampiric), 2705(vampiric) | 07undead, fighter, evil, sense invisible | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1070 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal.

15:54:06 <PleasingFungus> %??jiangshi
15:54:10 <gammafunk> probably worse ev
15:54:14 <Cheibriados> bone dragon (15D) | Spd: 10 | HD: 20 | HP: 153-205 | AC/EV: 20/4 | Dam: 30, 20, 2007(trample) | 07undead, evil, sense invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(106), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3694 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal.

15:54:14 <gammafunk> %??bone_dragon
15:54:16 <Cheibriados> Orb Guardian (06X) | Spd: 14 | HD: 15 | HP: 65-103 | AC/EV: 13/13 | Dam: 45 | 10doors, fighter, see invisible | Res: 06magic(120), 12drown | XP: 2765 | Sz: Giant | Int: normal.

15:54:16 <Lightli> %??orb guardian
15:54:38 <PleasingFungus> yeah this is kind of a lot like an orb guardian. but not alive, and flying, and mostly in different areas
15:54:43 <gammafunk> yeah, it's ...kind of an orb guardian
15:54:51 <gammafunk> more hp, more damage though
15:54:58 <gammafunk> and yeah resistances, flying
15:55:05 <gammafunk> and then
15:55:07 <PleasingFungus> I'm liking the sound of this tbh
15:55:09 <gammafunk> we could even do bone riders
15:55:17 <Cheibriados> 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-1568-g797ed0d: Fix braces for Torpor Snail bands 10(8 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=797ed0dad394
15:55:19 <gammafunk> in e.g. tomb
15:55:19 <PleasingFungus> lich riders..........
15:55:31 <PleasingFungus> reaverb: good catch! thanks
15:55:40 <gammafunk> but clearly don't lich PF decide what rides them since he doesn't even know how felid liches work
15:56:03 <PleasingFungus> felid liches!?! no one mentioned felid liches
15:56:06 <PleasingFungus> until now....
15:56:07 <Lightli> clearly ereshkigal should ride one
15:56:08 <gammafunk> !lg PleasingFungus FE-- s=char
15:56:09 <Sequell> 8 games for PleasingFungus (FE--): 3x FeDK, 2x FeTm, 2x FeAr, FeBe
15:56:12 <gammafunk> !lg PleasingFungus FE-- s=char won
15:56:13 <Sequell> One game for PleasingFungus (FE-- won): FeAr
15:56:14 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: Thank |amethyst for util/unbrace
15:56:22 <Cerpin> Lich riders are very metal
15:56:25 <PleasingFungus> I usually run that! usually
15:56:30 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: fear me
15:56:34 <PleasingFungus> imo
15:56:37 <gammafunk> !lg . FE-- s=char
15:56:38 <Sequell> 154 games for gammafunk (FE--): 136x FeCK, 13x FeWn, FeSu, FeMo, FeFi, FeTm, FeWz
15:56:42 <gammafunk> !lg . FE-- s=char won
15:56:43 <PleasingFungus> !lg * fe-- won s=char
15:56:43 <Sequell> One game for gammafunk (FE-- won): FeCK
15:56:44 <Sequell> 360 games for * (fe-- won): 72x FeBe, 26x FeMo, 23x FeTm, 23x FeCj, 20x FeVM, 19x FeFE, 14x FeCK, 13x FeFi, 12x FeWr, 12x FeSu, 11x FeWz, 11x FeIE, 11x FeAE, 10x FeCr, 10x FeWn, 9x FeEE, 9x FeDK, 9x FeHe, 9x FeSk, 7x FeEn, 7x FeNe, 6x FeAK, 5x FeAr, 4x FePr, 3x FeSt, 2x FeJr, FeRe, FeGl, FePa
15:56:44 <reaverb> Pleasingfungus: Just add it to your precommit hook.
15:57:11 <PleasingFungus> !lg * fepa won
15:57:11 <Sequell> 1. KiloByte the Eviscerator (L27 FePa of Nemelex Xobeh), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2011-02-21 12:35:08, with 1311626 points after 167011 turns and 17:42:01.
15:57:15 <PleasingFungus> huh
15:58:12 <gammafunk> !hs * Fe--
15:58:13 <Sequell> 57472. hyperbolic the Ripper (L21 FeGl of Nemelex Xobeh), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2010-12-20 09:16:22, with 33162178 points after 43713 turns and 8:56:31.
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15:58:21 <gammafunk> !hs * FeCK
15:58:22 <Sequell> 2558. Ankalagon the Sabretooth (L27 FeCK of Xom), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2014-05-08 15:33:35, with 13252812 points after 119319 turns and 14:35:19.
15:58:31 <gammafunk> !hs * FeCK -3
15:58:32 <Sequell> 2556/2558. gammafunk the Farming Annihilator (L27 FeCK of Sif Muna), escaped with the Orb and 15 runes on 2013-07-21 23:04:53, with 7406208 points after 250008 turns and 1d+19:48:21.
15:58:53 <PleasingFungus> good title
15:58:59 <gammafunk> don't think I can bring myself to do a 15-rune FeCK of xom
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16:01:06 <PleasingFungus> oh. while people are on around and chatting about design & necromantic subjects
16:01:09 <PleasingFungus> I was thinking about lethal infusion
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16:03:42 <PleasingFungus> it was bad because (a) it was a charm that didn't have drawbacks, and (b) because it was a tempbrand spell that encouraged carrying around unbranded weapons, which was kind of a weird mechanic
16:04:08 <PleasingFungus> on the other hand, it was good because it encouraged & supported early --ne hybridization, which I think is neat & worth encouraging
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16:04:53 <reaverb> That was removed yes?
16:05:37 <reaverb> Yes, slightly confused it with Excruciating Wounds.
16:05:51 <reaverb> I think Regeneration is enough to encourage Necro hybridization.
16:05:51 <PleasingFungus> yep, removed along with the rest of the tempbrands a few months ago
16:05:57 <PleasingFungus> rest of the low-level tempbrands
16:06:00 <PleasingFungus> reaverb: .......how?
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16:06:12 <|amethyst> and (b) is no longer (as much of) an issue
16:06:23 <|amethyst> there might be some weirdness still
16:07:08 <PleasingFungus> sure, but having a lower-level tempbrand is a good way to sort that out
16:07:10 <reaverb> PleasingFungus: Oh sorry about the regen comment, was slightly confused.d
16:07:15 <PleasingFungus> it's cool
16:07:24 <PleasingFungus> (a) is more of a problem, but I had some thoughts for how to deal with it
16:08:34 <Grunt> Have it drain *you* slightly.
16:08:38 <PleasingFungus> yes exactly
16:08:44 <PleasingFungus> essentially the idea would be to design the spell to be a short-term buff that weakens you in the medium term; apply drain brand + temporary weapon skill, and then get some nontrivial amount of draining when it wears off (about a skill level?)
16:08:58 <PleasingFungus> make it not castable by chars with rn+++, probably.
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16:10:57 <reaverb> So bascially my old idea for the regen spell but with Lethal Infusion? I don't know how necessary enocouraging hybridation is (and I think the current book still does so to some degree?)
16:11:49 <PleasingFungus> ??ne
16:11:49 <Sequell> necromancer[1/3]: Class starting with a {Book of Necromancy}.
16:11:53 <PleasingFungus> ??book of necromancy
16:11:53 <Sequell> book of necromancy[1/1]: Pain, Animate Skeleton, Lethal Infusion, Vampiric Draining, Regeneration, Animate Dead, Control Undead
16:12:20 <PleasingFungus> not really seeing anything in there that supports hybridization, tbh
16:13:14 <reaverb> Minons, Not having a good long range attack against most enemies.
16:14:00 <gammafunk> yeah, ne is a good stabber background
16:14:10 <gammafunk> hrm, would this new verson just give you the drain brand?
16:14:15 <gammafunk> or what would the buff be
16:14:29 <gammafunk> ah, drain + temp weapon skill
16:14:42 <PleasingFungus> drain brand might honestly be strong enough in itself (it's a very strong brand, especially in the early game)
16:15:15 <gammafunk> well, it is certainly strong, but early drain is a high cost
16:15:19 <PleasingFungus> true
16:15:22 <gammafunk> when you have so few skill levels as is
16:15:34 <PleasingFungus> balancing the drain cost is the hardest part, I think
16:15:59 <|amethyst> make draining brand do HP damage to the player
16:16:10 <|amethyst> nonlethal like the Pain spell
16:16:22 <PleasingFungus> you're just trying to rip-off the majin-bo!
16:16:24 <PleasingFungus> I see what you're doing here
16:16:27 <PleasingFungus> :)
16:16:35 <gammafunk> no
16:16:40 <gammafunk> the majin-bo is a pain ripoff
16:16:45 <PleasingFungus> dang.......
16:16:51 <gammafunk> dunked
16:16:58 <PleasingFungus> I think it's okay if the drain cost is significant early on and more of an annoyance later, as long as it's proportionate to the benefits in each case
16:17:00 <reaverb> Hmm HP damage to the player could make a good new brand.
16:17:29 <PleasingFungus> I do also really like the "self-pain on attack" idea, though
16:17:32 <reaverb> (I don't think adding it to draining would be good because draining is already intresting, this would just be like vorpal except with the drawback and stronger)
16:17:56 <reaverb> Well, maybe also "evil" but we already have like 4 evil brands.
16:17:57 <gammafunk> yeah you might be onto something a reworked lethal infusion, tbh I haven't used temp brands much, so I key things are don't encourage tedious place, make the benefit worth it, and the cost not highly annoying
16:18:13 <PleasingFungus> yes, I'd agree with those
16:18:44 <gammafunk> that was poorly worded on my part, but yeah I don't have much beyond that; encouraging melee a bit more actively in Ne is cool though
16:19:04 <gammafunk> Ne is a good "hybrid" class, but nothing wrong with a spell more specifically for that
16:19:05 <|amethyst> Re beogh, what about letting you use the ability once per item type per orc
16:19:08 <reaverb> Could just make Ne a hyrbid background.
16:19:23 <|amethyst> one melee weapon, one armour, (maybe) one ranged weapon
16:19:46 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: or you could make the piety cost significant (it might be already?) and just lift the restrictions entirely (for named orcs?)
16:19:49 <gammafunk> No I think Ne is good already, if you'd mean reworking the other spells
16:20:00 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: I think he means in terms of starting kit?
16:20:02 <PleasingFungus> maybe
16:20:06 <reaverb> |amethyst: That sounds a bit too much, maybe. If you have 12 Orcs deciding the top 12 each of armour, ranged, and melee weapons you've seen sounds a little tedious.
16:20:18 <gammafunk> well it's a book start
16:20:39 <PleasingFungus> yeah I feel like if necromancer isn't starting with a robe and dagger, we've done something wrong
16:20:43 <PleasingFungus> (do they start with a dagger?)
16:20:46 <gammafunk> yeah I think it's kind of like IE is hybridy, not as explicit as say Sk
16:20:47 <|amethyst> they do not
16:20:48 <PleasingFungus> (they need a robe. that's obvious.)
16:20:52 <PleasingFungus> hm. pity
16:21:04 <PleasingFungus> imho start them with a -1 dagger. rusty with blood....
16:21:16 <PleasingFungus> that phrase doesn't make any sense, I'm sorry.
16:21:34 <gammafunk> Your pot of coagulated blood rusts away
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16:31:05 <Lightli> honestly I would use excrutiating wounds if it gave temp weapon skill
16:31:08 <Lightli> er
16:31:13 <Lightli> wrong brand spell
16:31:19 <Lightli> I mean lethal infusion
16:40:00 <PleasingFungus> well, of course you would. you would use it if it didn't give temp weapon skill, too, because draining brand is secretly really good.
16:40:25 <PleasingFungus> the question is actually, "can you design a version of the spell that people will use *sometimes*?"
16:40:55 <PleasingFungus> that's trickier
16:40:59 <|amethyst> also
16:41:10 <|amethyst> you probably want it to be something people will use earlier rather than later
16:41:21 <|amethyst> which probably suggests something other than self-drain
16:41:51 <PleasingFungus> I think it'll be fine if the draining can be balanced correctly
16:42:17 <PleasingFungus> as I mentioned above, I think it's good for it to be a significant cost when the spell first comes online; something you pull out for tough fights
16:43:27 <Lightli> ??draining
16:43:27 <Sequell> draining[1/3]: 2/3 chance of doing on average 25% extra damage to susceptible monsters, doing 1+1d3 extra damage and removing that much from max HP. If the 2/3 chance is hit, it has a further 20% chance to drop HD by 1. Only affects monsters of normal {holiness} with no rN. Players with rN+/rN++ are still affected (but get drained less and take less damage).
16:43:31 <ontoclasm> merge exc wounds and sure blade
16:43:31 <Sequell> ontoclasm: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
16:43:36 <ontoclasm> !messages
16:43:37 <Sequell> (1/2) |amethyst said (1h 16m ago): In case you missed that in the netsplit:  want to pick one of the titlescreens at #8645 ?  Or do your own background?  It kind of got led hanging
16:43:45 <ontoclasm> !messages
16:43:45 <Sequell> (1/1) PleasingFungus said (1h 13m 11s ago): Bloax also made a variant of his purple-flames version that had teal flames instead - you could ask if him for that if you like the sound of it
16:44:12 <|amethyst> s/led/left/
16:44:28 <ontoclasm> i was sort of mulling it over
16:44:49 <ontoclasm> bloax's purple one looks good i suppose
16:45:24 <ontoclasm> !git :/title screen
16:45:24 <Sequell> %git :/title screen
16:45:28 <Cheibriados> 07Grunt02 * 0.14-a0-3568-g9ea9b7c: Nudge the title screen header in an important fashion. 10(3 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9ea9b7cf4a7c
16:45:35 <ontoclasm> nope
16:45:40 <PleasingFungus> last time it came up we ended up going around in circles about it for about half an hour
16:45:42 <PleasingFungus> it was very silly
16:45:43 <ontoclasm> %git :/syweapon
16:45:44 <Cheibriados> Could not find commit :/syweapon (git returned 128)
16:45:53 <ontoclasm> maybe it's an i?
16:45:59 <ontoclasm> %git /siweapon
16:45:59 <Cheibriados> Could not find commit /siweapon (git returned 128)
16:46:13 <PleasingFungus> %git 3110700ea60c14dea8f061aecdb9c1317d6633b1
16:46:13 <Cheibriados> 07|amethyst02 * 0.14-a0-1384-g3110700: New title screen featuring Roxanne (Psiweapon, #7832) 10(6 months ago, 2 files, 2+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=3110700ea60c
16:46:13 <ontoclasm> hrm
16:46:23 <ontoclasm> git why
16:46:26 <ontoclasm> thanks
16:46:29 <|amethyst> let's see
16:46:33 <|amethyst> I missed something there
16:46:34 <PleasingFungus> you missed the colon
16:46:39 <ontoclasm> oh
16:46:41 <ontoclasm> i suck
16:46:47 <ontoclasm> sorry git you know i love you
16:46:50 <PleasingFungus> haha
16:47:19 <PleasingFungus> yeah I didn't notice the colon either the first time I looked at that line. it was confusing, since I'd already found the relevant commit, and wasn't sure why your query wasn't pulling it up
16:47:24 <PleasingFungus> *the missing colon
16:48:22 <|amethyst> ontoclasm:  also
16:48:25 <|amethyst> %git e6af5e3
16:48:26 <Cheibriados> 07|amethyst02 * 0.14-a0-1408-ge6af5e3: Add the newer title screens to webtiles. 10(6 months ago, 1 file, 9+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e6af5e33730d
16:48:46 <ontoclasm> yeah
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16:50:22 <|amethyst> ontoclasm:  would be good to optimise it too
16:51:06 <ontoclasm> optimize the png?
16:51:09 <|amethyst> yea
16:51:13 <ontoclasm> i do that to everything i commit
16:51:22 <|amethyst> yay
16:53:01 <edlothiol> the title screens aren't hardcoded anymore in webtiles-changes, btw
16:55:45 <ontoclasm> webtiles-changes?
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16:58:34 <|amethyst> edlothiol's branch for improvements to the webtiles server and interface
16:58:49 <ontoclasm> aha
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16:59:37 <|amethyst> I kind of got sidetracked from putting it on CSZO last week, because bugs needed fixing :)
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17:00:13 <|amethyst> (and now I am discovered as an imposter because the real |amethyst would have said "needed fixed")
17:01:14 <Cheibriados> 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.15-a0-1569-gdbe329f: Eye of draining title screen (Peileppe/Bloax, 8645) 10(2 minutes ago, 3 files, 3+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=dbe329f663ca
17:02:02 * ontoclasm turns its gaze towards you.
17:04:10 <reaverb> if the list in client.html is suppose to be alphabetical, doesn't e come before o?
17:05:40 <PleasingFungus> what e?
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17:06:27 <reaverb> In "peileppe"
17:06:40 <reaverb> under "pooryurik"
17:06:53 <ontoclasm> oh
17:06:56 * reaverb wonder why some many tile screen creators have names starting in p
17:07:11 <ontoclasm> i can't read apparently
17:07:16 <reaverb> ontoclasm: I can fix it if you want :D
17:07:21 <ontoclasm> i'll fix it
17:07:26 <reaverb> Ok.
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17:11:24 <Cheibriados> 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.15-a0-1570-g38869bd: Alphabetize. 10(3 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=38869bdfd23f
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17:16:37 <ontoclasm> fencer's gloves could let you roll to-hit twice and take the better one
17:17:47 <reaverb> ontoclasm: That sounds a bit too complicated.
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17:22:52 <Lantell> Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.15-a0-1569-gdbe329f (34)
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17:25:55 <PleasingFungus> could give +sh. parrying!
17:26:10 <PleasingFungus> or give a chance of minotaur-style retaliation on a successful block
17:26:13 <PleasingFungus> (riposte!)
17:26:23 <reaverb> +sh seems overused lately.
17:27:17 <PleasingFungus> Mm?
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17:29:01 <reaverb> With Qazlal and the increase of SH from bone plates/shield enchantment.
17:29:06 <reaverb> I guess that isn't that bad.
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18:36:34 <minmay> any reason mon_can_be_slimified returns false for god-gifted monsters? it makes god wrath summons impossible to slimify which is really bizarre
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18:42:09 <reaverb> Hello infiniplex!
18:42:33 <infiniplex> reaverb: no Cocytus layouts require flight
18:42:37 <infiniplex> Also hello
18:42:39 <reaverb> I'm waiting for some feedback from gammafunk on your patch, but otherwise I think I can push it within the next couple days.
18:42:45 <infiniplex> Good
18:42:59 <reaverb> infiniplex: Heh, I think I said that some time a long time back, I can't quite remember.
18:43:23 <infiniplex> no, you said it "wasn't ready yet"
18:43:43 <reaverb> infiniplex: No, the Coc layout thing.
18:43:52 <reaverb> was the thing I said some time a long time back.
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18:44:28 <infiniplex> you said the opposite in the IRC logs a couple days ago
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18:44:30 <reaverb> infiniplex: Anyway, sorry for the delay, I wanted somebody else to look over it and mentioned that on crd, but nobody really took it up.
18:44:50 <reaverb> infiniplex: Yes, I said that I thought the opposite a couple days ago.
18:45:04 <infiniplex> The no  flight required thing is in both cocytus layouts explicitly.
18:45:13 <reaverb> Hmm, interesting.
18:45:54 <infiniplex> I don't know a reason.  I put it in because I didn't know if requiring flight was allowed and I think mumra put it in the other one because he didn't know either,
18:46:19 <reaverb> Oh, hmm.
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18:46:50 <infiniplex> Yep.  mumra has a comment he guarenteed paths because I did.
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18:47:06 <infiniplex> If requiring flight is desired, I can easily change the layouts.
18:47:31 <reaverb> I think not requiring flight is better, although I'm not sure how important it is.
18:47:34 <Cheibriados> Sufficiently slow attacks fail random-var.cc:56 assert 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8698 by minmay
18:48:24 <infiniplex> Taking out the special "connect everything" code would mean a lot of flight.  Controlled teleport would not be enough without unlimited.
18:48:25 <reaverb> infiniplex: When you mentioned fixes a while back, do you have anything which should go in with the rebalancing patch?
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18:48:59 <infiniplex> No.  I meant that with the rebalancing patch in, I could then do all the things I put comments for.
18:49:27 <reaverb> infiniplex: Ah, good to know.
18:51:09 <infiniplex> !tell eb_ there was a discussion about hell layouts placing stairs at the far side, but it was decided that it was spoilery: always do controlled teleport at level start if you have it and uncontrolled teleport if you don't
18:51:09 <Sequell> infiniplex: OK, I'll let eb_ know.
18:51:40 <tabstorm> Does forlorn actively drain your piety, or just slow your gain?
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18:53:08 <bh> people on the tavern really do whine.
18:53:32 <tabstorm> you dont say
18:53:37 <tabstorm> what thread
18:54:47 <minmay> this one guy is mad because holy monsters don't have the conversion chance anymore
18:54:52 <bh> tabstorm: crosstraining
18:55:12 <minmay> well to be fair, i think thats just because they have no clue at all what skill points are
18:56:06 <bh> he
18:56:07 <bh> h
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18:56:19 <reaverb> infiniplex: The major thing which I find a little odd is how many layouts are completely removed by that patch. How many are added back later by the patches being held up by this?
18:56:24 <bh> minmay: honestly, I don't think I figured out the skills menu until my first win
18:56:33 <bh> !lg . won sp
18:56:34 <Sequell> 1. bh the Blademaster (L23 SpCK of Lugonu), escaped with the Orb and 4 runes on 2010-10-03 11:48:05, with 1359857 points after 151888 turns and 12:39:57.
18:56:36 <bh> !lg . won sp -log
18:56:37 <Sequell> 1. bh, XL23 SpCK, T:151888: http://crawl.develz.org/morgues/trunk/bh/morgue-bh-20101003-114805.txt
18:56:44 <reaverb> infiniplex: (Should probably post those to mantis if you made them, I don't know if you did)
18:56:52 <tabstorm> what
18:56:54 <bh> "figured out"
18:56:59 <tabstorm> are people bitchin about crosstraining?
18:57:20 <tabstorm> concept seems fine to me
18:57:26 <tabstorm> im not sure if the numbers work out the same
18:57:41 <Cheibriados> Improve LUA zonify functionality 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8699 by infiniplex
18:59:14 <infiniplex> reaverb: Any patch I make now would be inconsistant.  2 are coming back with quick fixes.  2 more if I can figure out how to improve them. Oone is sometimes very slow and one (I made) is really bad.
18:59:17 <bh> tabstorm: they probably don't.
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19:00:13 <reaverb> infiniplex: I can probably fix any conflicts, putting up anything you think should be in the game would probably be best.
19:01:10 <infiniplex> I don't like having a branch that is getting ever-farther from trunk.
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19:03:17 <reaverb> That's only if you have things which you've already done, if you haven't made them feel free to wait.
19:04:06 <infiniplex> No, they aren't done yet; I have a couple new layouts, but those are waiting so that I can test them against the new version
19:04:24 <reaverb> Ok, that's fine.
19:04:36 <infiniplex> Also, the list of which layouts is on mantis
19:04:51 <infiniplex> And now I have to go.
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19:05:10 <tabstorm> o bh
19:05:17 <bh> yah tabstorm?
19:05:19 <tabstorm> cant you just calculate it so that
19:05:33 <tabstorm> lets say i trained maces to 14
19:05:38 <tabstorm> then crosstrained staves to 14
19:05:48 <tabstorm> theres an xp differential between untrained staves to 14 and crosstrained
19:05:55 <tabstorm> cant you have the new system be s.t.
19:06:03 <tabstorm> that xp differential is the same
19:06:08 <bh> wut
19:06:24 <bh> you're saying:
19:06:25 <tabstorm> or do i not know xp scaling
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19:07:39 <bh> hrm...
19:08:06 <bh> define a function skill_points_to_skill(x)
19:08:22 <bh> 1. SPTS(maces) = 14
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19:08:45 <bh> 2. SPTS(maces/5 +staves) = 14?
19:09:39 <tabstorm> uh im not sure what 5 is from
19:10:03 <tabstorm> all im suggesting is to make the new system be such that the xp you save from crosstraining is the same
19:10:19 <tabstorm> as you would have saved under the old system
19:11:02 <bh> ah. I didn't bother doing those calculations.
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19:11:47 <tabstorm> so
19:11:55 <tabstorm> do you just divide the skill by 5?
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19:19:55 <reaverb> On the Slimfiy thing minqmay mentioned:
19:19:57 <reaverb> %git 30c0986c27956
19:19:57 <Cheibriados> 07Matthew_Cline02 * 0.6.0-a1-454-g30c0986: Jiyva won't slimify god-gift monsters. 10(4 years, 7 months ago, 2 files, 7+ 5-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=30c0986c2795
19:20:24 <reaverb> So it was done for a reason, no idea what that reason is.
19:20:42 <minmay> I'm confused as to what kind of problems it could possibly cause
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19:21:45 <reaverb> Oh wow this is stupid.
19:21:48 <minmay> slimify already works on summons, why not god wrath ones
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19:22:26 <reaverb> Apparently there was an ASSERT() which works on God summons already being god summons, and instead of the changing the assert they forbid god gifts from being slimified?
19:22:30 <reaverb> %git 30c0986c27956~
19:22:30 <Cheibriados> 07Matthew_Cline02 * 0.6.0-a1-453-gdf750a0: religion.cc: mons_make_god_gift(): switching gods 10(4 years, 7 months ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=df750a0139a6
19:22:59 <minmay> beautiful
19:23:41 <reaverb> I still have no idea why or if that ASSERT is necessary.
19:23:46 <minmay> so I can polymorph an oka wrath giant into an acid blob
19:23:50 <minmay> but not slimify one into an acid blob
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19:29:15 <reaverb> Yes I think I'll let Slimify work on God gifts.
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19:50:03 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: Are you seriously going to pursue operation bone rider
19:52:10 <reaverb> gammafunk: btw, when are you going to look at the infiniplex patch <_<
19:53:26 <gammafunk> oh
19:54:19 <reaverb> forgot about it? :D
19:54:57 <gammafunk> it wasn't on my ultra-accurate todo
19:55:53 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: I thought that was |amethyst's baby
19:56:31 <reaverb> 1learn e gammafunk s/$/, look at infiniplex's layout patch/
19:56:40 <|amethyst> do what you want with it :)
19:56:53 <gammafunk> ok, I'll be extra pretty certain to look at it a bit later this evening
19:56:54 <|amethyst> should be easy enough to see how to change things
19:57:09 <reaverb> gammafunk: Thanks.
19:57:09 <minmay> I didn't even think of the sexual innuendo until tavern pointed it out, even after that guy in ##crawl the other day kept saying "boner dragon"
19:57:22 <|amethyst> the first commit isn't necessary if neither rider nor mount has death curses etc
19:57:34 <|amethyst> but who knows, there might be some lurking crash it fixes.  Or introduces.
19:57:52 <gammafunk> if you can't get to innuendo even from bone dragon, you are clearly not worthy of being called a tiles player
19:57:52 <|amethyst> actually, I guess a small bit of it is
19:58:01 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: I'm just hoping you'll do it and I
19:58:02 <|amethyst> the part that changes MONS_SPRIGGAN to an intelligence check
19:58:08 <gammafunk> er I will avoid any responsibility
19:58:26 <PleasingFungus> haha
19:58:34 <Grunt> mummy dragoon
19:59:13 <PleasingFungus> 15:17:31 <PleasingFungus> "mummy dragoon" is still open!
19:59:18 <gammafunk> I'd just like to be able to post in that thread that we are in fact not removing bone dragons but in fact remaking them and in fact adding a NEW monster that rides on the bone dragon and in fact that new monster itself makes bone dragons
19:59:20 <PleasingFungus> plagarist
19:59:49 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: that seems like a funny thing to post
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19:59:59 <PleasingFungus> tbh sometimes I think it is okay to post things even if they are not true
20:00:01 <PleasingFungus> if they are funny enough
20:00:01 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: you have my plessing to post it if you follow through with the plan
20:00:05 <PleasingFungus> haha
20:00:33 <PleasingFungus> iirc our feeling was that "lich dragoon" or "lich rider" or something like that was funnier than the mummy dragoon
20:00:44 <PleasingFungus> and also less of a "greater greater mummy" situation
20:00:52 <reaverb> gammafunk: I think I mentioned that they would replace bone dragons if they got in at all.
20:00:55 <PleasingFungus> idk tho. that conversation kind of went all over the place
20:01:14 <PleasingFungus> we were also talking about making normal boner dragons more like orb guardians
20:01:18 <PleasingFungus> statwise
20:01:35 <gammafunk> reaverb: yeah, I think even if we didn't do the rider thing, a reworked bone dragon would be good
20:01:38 <PleasingFungus> which I think is probably an okay change independent of  - yes
20:02:12 <gammafunk> hrm, as a yred gift it's maybe a bit problematic in that servitors are already fast gifts with more modest hp
20:02:15 <gammafunk> in fact
20:02:18 <Cheibriados> profane servitor (05A) | Spd: 15 | HD: 18 | HP: 130-174 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Dam: 2505(vampiric), 1013(drain) | 07undead, 10items, 10doors, fighter, priest, evil, see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(192), 02cold, 10elec++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 08holy, 13torm | XP: 3908 | Sz: Medium | Int: high.

20:02:18 <gammafunk> %??profane_servitor
20:02:23 <gammafunk> haha
20:02:33 <gammafunk> we'd almost be making profane servitors with this
20:02:53 <gammafunk> not quite, but not that far
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20:04:03 <Cheibriados> 03reaverb02 07* 0.15-a0-1571-g6f04e5f: Let Slimify work on God Gifts 10(12 minutes ago, 1 file, 2+ 4-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=6f04e5fe9d09
20:04:05 <gammafunk> they have more hp than I thought
20:04:25 <PleasingFungus> as usual, the problem is that monsters work differently as allies and as enemies
20:04:29 <PleasingFungus> boner dragons are great as is, as allies
20:04:32 <PleasingFungus> but super boring as enemies
20:04:40 <gammafunk> yep
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20:13:57 <rchandra> felid description bug: These many-lived cats possess sentience, but are incapable of advanced item manipulation
20:14:32 <reaverb> Hmm, what's the full list of what Fe can't do right now?
20:14:45 <reaverb> Is it just mostly no weapons or amour?
20:14:46 <rchandra> weapon, armour, rod ?
20:14:48 <ChangeAj> can't be fully bound with ashenzari
20:14:51 <rchandra> and rod is a weapon
20:15:24 <rchandra> ChangeAj: don't they get fully bound when they bind jewellery?
20:15:30 <ChangeAj> nope 3/4
20:15:57 <ChangeAj> I'm workin on ash rework that lets them use lives as the last one
20:16:04 <ChangeAj> ie 0 lives = fully bound
20:16:31 <PleasingFungus> ...huh
20:16:44 <PleasingFungus> that's thematic but idk how well it works mechanically?
20:17:03 <ChangeAj> badly but you get a boost when you are more likely to die so thats nice
20:17:10 <ChangeAj> like actually die
20:18:39 <ChangeAj> my ash rework might not make it/take a while so if you like that idea its easy
20:20:05 <reaverb> I don't think it would be a good idea to give Fe Ash some special case.
20:20:46 <reaverb> It would be link making Na of Chei get extra power to Invocations for being slow before.
20:20:52 <reaverb> s/link/like/
20:22:30 <PleasingFungus> naga do get extra slouch power, though. (hooray for naga of chei!)
20:23:11 <reaverb> Yes but that's because it depends on how slow you are rather than Invocations, just like Tr metabolism is slowed futher by Chei.
20:23:26 <reaverb> because the metabolism slowing depends on how fast your meta is.
20:24:57 <ChangeAj> felids are already a special case
20:25:21 <ChangeAj> just like octopods
20:25:30 <ChangeAj> you can't change that fact
20:25:30 <rchandra> yes, better to remove that and give them fully bound :)
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20:25:47 <rchandra> what's Op's special case? they still have hand hand armour magic
20:25:52 <ChangeAj> 8 rings
20:26:10 <rchandra> that's not a special case, they still get bound for cursing over half
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20:26:32 <rchandra> just like half the races need 3/4 instead of 3/5 for armour
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20:27:37 <rchandra> where by half I mean around 1/4
20:28:14 <ChangeAj> you get x amount of skills for being more bound in a specific area and you are more likely to get ash_id for being more bound
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20:49:30 <PleasingFungus> yo lasty
20:49:34 <PleasingFungus> some guy LP'd iashol
20:50:26 <PleasingFungus> http://brunich.com/iashol-6.gif apparently there were some fun grammar errors in his build (and then the game crashed when he tried to evoke a rod of swarms)
20:50:47 <PleasingFungus> you might have already fixed either/both of these errors, but just in case
20:51:26 <Lasty> LP'd?
20:52:05 <Lasty> oh, Let's Play
20:52:14 <Lasty> I assume
20:52:19 <Lasty> Is there a link?
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20:54:19 <ChangeAj> can someone check if my new patch is ok grammar wise, etc. had some issues with ending the line about abilities because the # of abilities is unknown. I used power(s) but spell(s) might be better?
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20:54:59 <Cheibriados> Quick descriptions now tell you about spellcasters 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8700 by Change
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20:56:38 <PleasingFungus> the lp is http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3630027&pagenumber=10#post431149965 , but it's behind a paywall
20:56:49 <PleasingFungus> because it's on something awful
20:57:28 <PleasingFungus> http://pastebin.com/YZJC3bba here's a text dump
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21:05:58 <Lantell> Vasek (L13 KoAs) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 212: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (Lair:2)
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21:07:36 <Lasty> PleasingFungus: Thanks!
21:10:15 <Lasty> PleasingFungus: Seems relatively positive, but yeah, gotta fix that rod rrash
21:10:17 <Lasty> *crash
21:10:25 <Lasty> interesting that it was a 100% CPU crash
21:11:07 <Lasty> Was not expecting that
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21:51:53 <rchandra> is starting with knowledge of items you don't have a bug these days?
21:53:01 <SamB> which items?
21:53:21 <tabstorm> question:
21:53:26 <tabstorm> how many different abyssal rune vaults are there?
21:53:32 <rchandra> potion of heal wounds (VSHe)
21:54:10 <SamB> I dunno, it seems kind of reasonable that a healer would have learned in healer school what those look like ...
21:55:11 <rchandra> it would definitely be weird to give them an extra ID penalty compared to other He, I just wondered since that behaviour was explicitly removed from ar/wr/wn etc
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22:02:01 <SamB> I thought Wr started with random inventory and only that got pre-IDed?
22:02:19 <SamB> er, or am I getting the two-letter abbreviations confused again
22:02:44 <geekosaur> wr is warper, no? wanderer is wn
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22:18:21 <PleasingFungus> oh yeah
22:18:23 <PleasingFungus> marvinpa
22:18:30 <PleasingFungus> %git :/enchant
22:19:17 <Cheibriados> 07reaverb02 * 0.15-a0-1552-g002409d: Revert "Re-add a failure chance for enchanting weapons (Nomi)" 10(25 hours ago, 1 file, 1+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=002409de613f
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22:24:12 <PleasingFungus> !tell marvinpa you technically missed a spot when you changed ?ew weight; dat/dungeon.lua has a list of "good scrolls" with an entirely separate set of weights, which seem to be used in zigs and a wizlab. I suppose it hardly matters, though.
22:24:12 <Sequell> PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let marvinpa know.
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22:37:13 <minmay> !tell marvinpa my last game had 3 scrolls total
22:37:14 <Sequell> minmay: OK, I'll let marvinpa know.
22:37:40 <PleasingFungus> dang
22:37:42 <PleasingFungus> !lg minmay
22:37:43 <Sequell> 3125. minmay the Acrobat (L27 DgSu), escaped with the Orb and 3 runes on 2014-06-18 03:36:39, with 1500549 points after 102778 turns and 3:25:47.
22:37:45 <PleasingFungus> huh
22:37:51 <PleasingFungus> that doesn't seem like very many scrolls
22:38:05 <simmarine> spend them wisely
22:38:19 <rchandra> it's not unheard of to get that number for say recharge, and if EW became similar... :(
22:38:33 <PleasingFungus> on the other hand, it never fails now
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22:41:15 <rchandra> 2 .5 enchant weapons per acquirement, wow :(
22:41:53 <rchandra> or probably depth_mod means more than I think
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22:52:42 <PleasingFungus> notorious terror fiend MIN MAY suggests making lost souls work the same way for living enemies as for undead (that is, reviving them in place instead of spectralizing them), to reduce interface screw.
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22:54:20 <rchandra> in particular, spectral things aren't identifiable by glyph/tile or xv and they often have spells
22:54:27 <ChangeAj> I think the main problem is describing monster spell sets is screwed up because its checking mi.is_spellcaster at the start
22:54:47 <ChangeAj> and thats just some flags that are set arbitrarily
22:55:31 <minmay> ChangeAj: I'd prefer to know what a monster is by looking at its glyph, instead of seeing a green Z and having to examine it
22:55:43 <ChangeAj> yes I think thats a good change too
22:55:54 <PleasingFungus> or, in tiles, be able to have the same visually info-dense sprite, rather than a generic "spectral elf"
22:56:08 <PleasingFungus> is it a death mage? an annihilator? it's a spoooky mystery!
22:56:51 <PleasingFungus> the thing is that enemies that get spectralized by lost souls don't really do anything interesting with their AF_BRAND or rN. they just... do the same things they did while alive, but in a marginally more spooky fashion.
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22:58:46 <ChangeAj> thing is you should be told when you see something if its a spellcaster
22:59:09 <ChangeAj> because the information is already there you just have to x-v
22:59:42 <PleasingFungus> oh yeah, I didn't get the chance to look at your patch. hm.
22:59:59 <ChangeAj> I think I fucked it up but we'll see
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23:00:29 <PleasingFungus> does this make ash warn you every time an enemy with spells comes into sight?
23:00:33 <PleasingFungus> that sounds really annoying.
23:01:02 <ChangeAj> its like when something comes in range with a weapon
23:01:07 <PleasingFungus> have you considered just using scarletrc?
23:01:27 <ChangeAj> you shouldn't need an rc
23:01:34 <ChangeAj> this information is in game
23:01:34 <PleasingFungus> you really should, since this sounds annoying as hell.
23:01:43 <PleasingFungus> the information, as you said, is in game.
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23:01:54 <PleasingFungus> players who want it can look it up, or set up their rcfile to tell them automatically.
23:02:07 <PleasingFungus> but I don't need to be warned every time an ogre mage comes into view: "this monster has spells!"
23:02:10 <PleasingFungus> yes, I know, ash
23:02:11 <ChangeAj> you can remove the part where it tells them on sight I guess
23:02:21 <ChangeAj> and only have ctrl X and hovering with x-v
23:02:36 <PleasingFungus> I'd have to see how that looks in-game, I guess
23:03:00 <ChangeAj> I think its fine but it could be a bit less maybe
23:03:07 <PleasingFungus> what patch should I download?
23:03:11 <PleasingFungus> the second one?
23:03:20 <ChangeAj> the second one should only have like 2 extra spaces
23:03:33 <ChangeAj> I tried to delete the first one but I don't have permission
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23:03:57 <PleasingFungus> first one deleted
23:04:22 <ChangeAj> k, it looks like it broke because I checked out a different branch and didn't recompile its fine
23:04:54 <ChangeAj> and if you have like 15 spellcasters seen at once it doesn't even note them btw
23:05:01 <ChangeAj> ie elf 3 vault
23:05:19 <ChangeAj> it just says "15 elves come into view"
23:05:23 <PleasingFungus> compilation broke
23:05:44 <ChangeAj> hmm
23:05:51 <PleasingFungus> one sec
23:05:57 <PleasingFungus> recompiling against the latest master
23:06:30 <PleasingFungus> yep
23:06:39 <PleasingFungus> http://pastebin.com/eYf6NZBP
23:07:33 <ChangeAj> hmm I guess I messed up my commit on one
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23:15:20 <ChangeAj> k, probably working
23:15:33 <ChangeAj> shit nevermind
23:16:04 <PleasingFungus> code is hard
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23:20:10 <ChangeAj> I don't even know how my shit was compiling
23:20:21 <PleasingFungus> magic, cast by witches
23:20:23 <ChangeAj> because I had the -> versus . error again
23:20:33 <PleasingFungus> What compiler are you using?
23:20:33 <ChangeAj> and it usually throws the same error you got
23:20:51 <ChangeAj> mingw gcc on windows which is probably an awful idea
23:20:57 <PleasingFungus> oh
23:20:58 <PleasingFungus> I did that
23:21:00 <PleasingFungus> it sucked
23:21:12 <ChangeAj> ya it seems to suck
23:22:06 <PleasingFungus> I got my little brother to set up a free EC2 instance and just compile crawl on there
23:22:13 <PleasingFungus> it worked... okay
23:22:52 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-1572-gc06e819: Replace randomly-generate teleport traps with 1-shot versions 10(21 hours ago, 24 files, 57+ 35-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=c06e81946b46
23:22:52 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-1573-g47cdaed: Differentiate teleport trap tiles 10(4 minutes ago, 4 files, 3+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=47cdaedce351
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23:28:48 <ChangeAj> k, it should work now.  I used your working compiler's errors
23:29:12 <ChangeAj> I think I'll set up a virtual machine or something
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23:37:18 <PleasingFungus> reasonable
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23:43:08 <Cheibriados> changing gods puts the new gods abilities on new letters 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8701 by rchandra
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