00:00:12 <|amethyst> "Your post has been forwarded to 4chan.  Please follow up there for further discussion."
00:00:34 <PleasingFungus> rip
00:00:38 <Grunt> dang
00:01:12 <Grunt> rchandra: Ru probably needs more testing before being considered trunk-worthy, let alone release-ready. :(
00:01:30 <Grunt> (clearly land Ru in trunk immediately after the 0.15 tournament ends)
00:01:36 <PleasingFungus> that seems viable tbh
00:01:37 <|amethyst> eh, I say... what Grunt just said
00:01:50 <PleasingFungus> I am honestly excited & pleased by how well ru has been coming along
00:01:55 <|amethyst> except I'm serious :)
00:01:58 <rchandra> in all seriousness after-tournament would be better
00:02:07 <PleasingFungus> consensus :)
00:02:07 <rchandra> but I do not want to delay gratification :)
00:02:12 <PleasingFungus> pfft
00:02:33 <|amethyst> I don't like the name much, but eh
00:02:44 <|amethyst> Rename it back to "iashol" once it lands :P
00:02:48 <Grunt> !send |amethyst death mangoes
00:02:48 <Sequell> Sending death mangoes to |amethyst.
00:02:54 <johnny0> !lm . crash
00:02:55 <Sequell> 16. [2014-05-09 23:37:14] johnnyzero the Cutter (L6 KoEn) ERROR in 'tileweb.cc' at line 212: Socket write error: Resource temporarily unavailable (D:5)
00:03:07 <johnny0> ahh guess it hasn't updated yet :/
00:03:14 <|amethyst> johnny0:  was it sprint?
00:03:19 <rchandra> or idlashemyfos
00:03:27 <|amethyst> johnny0:  and what server?
00:03:39 -!- crate has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:03:39 <|amethyst> johnny0:  we've seen some cases of crash milestones not being generated
00:03:50 -!- Nomi has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
00:04:38 <johnny0> |amethyst: cszo, regular game -- http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/johnnyzero/crash-johnnyzero-20140801-045952.txt
00:04:56 <Cheibriados> Level corruption? 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8843 by MrDespairSA
00:05:00 <eb_> the "I, asshole" thing is as easily fixable as the dith mangoes thing
00:05:07 <eb_> just remove a letter anywhere
00:05:08 <PleasingFungus> I like the pun with ru
00:05:23 <PleasingFungus> also, being literally two letters is distinctive and memorable
00:06:19 <|amethyst> johnny0:  hm... I'm sure I've seen that before
00:06:41 <eb_> PleasingFungus: what is the pun with ru
00:07:27 <PleasingFungus> you will rue your sacrifices........
00:07:35 <|amethyst> MrDespairSA's bug is odd
00:07:51 <Grunt> |amethyst: looks like a rendering glitch
00:07:58 <Grunt> |amethyst: it is a webtiles game...
00:08:06 <|amethyst> yeah, I guess
00:08:09 <Sizzell> Unstable branch on crawl.s-z.org updated to: 0.15-a0-2386-g838f727 (34)
00:08:34 <|amethyst> but if he really did go down and back up, shouldn't the dump say Lair:2 not Lair:3 ?
00:08:53 <|amethyst> I guess maybe it was down, up, and back down, and neither the submitter nor webtiles registered the "back down"
00:09:03 <TS__> dang i didnt even realize that ru pun
00:09:06 <PleasingFungus> looks like just adding him to is_unavailable_god() is not in fact enough
00:09:08 <PleasingFungus> (gozag)
00:09:17 <TS__> is gozag still too bad to be in trunk
00:09:20 <TS__> or 0.15
00:09:28 <|amethyst> honestly, I think Gozag in 0.15 wouldn't be terrible
00:09:50 <|amethyst> I'd worry more about putting in something broken (LO, Dj) than something that might not be good enough
00:09:55 <PleasingFungus> %git 456eec3
00:09:55 <Cheibriados> 07|amethyst02 * 0.15-a0-2287-g456eec3: Show divine/cond. shield in % and @ (Kramin, PleasingFungus) 10(5 days ago, 1 file, 8+ 2-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=456eec362be7
00:10:00 <TS__> he's kinda weak but i don't think he has any egregious design problems
00:10:00 <TS__> ?
00:10:04 <Lightli> LO wasn't broken
00:10:09 <TS__> LO was fun as hell though
00:10:13 <Lightli> rip LO
00:10:19 <TS__> Dj was pretty overpowered but pretty dang amusing as well
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00:10:22 <Lightli> ruined by being too similar to HO
00:10:24 <|amethyst> Lightli:  pretty sure heat aura and speed was broken :)
00:10:27 <Lightli> Dj was boring
00:10:30 <TS__> speed got removed
00:10:32 <TS__> :(
00:10:36 <TS__> those were the good old days
00:10:40 <TS__> of LO tension swiftness
00:10:50 <TS__> where you had to try to die with them
00:11:12 <Lightli> then LO got removed
00:11:15 <TS__> rip
00:11:39 <eb_> LO was pretty broken until you needed to use a scroll of blinking
00:11:41 <eb_> and you couldn't
00:12:00 <TS__> yea once the speed got removed
00:12:02 <Grunt> PleasingFungus: I think to disable a god, you'd need to:
00:12:03 <TS__> i rated them below HO
00:12:06 <TS__> for that reason
00:12:10 <Grunt> 1) make them not considered a temple god;
00:12:24 <Grunt> 2) disable any vaults that place altars to them
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00:12:32 <PleasingFungus> eesh
00:12:48 <PleasingFungus> (2) sounds... tricky to do while maintaining him in trunk
00:13:04 <Grunt> I'd probably add an is_disabled_god() for the former, and vault-disabling can happen after branching
00:13:11 <Grunt> (this has been done in the past for other things)
00:13:11 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  not too bad
00:13:20 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  expose via lua whether e's enabled
00:13:26 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  then set the weight with lua
00:13:29 <PleasingFungus> aaa lua
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00:14:19 <|amethyst> Is that "aa" as in "ah" or as in "I'm invoking Smiting"?
00:14:32 <PleasingFungus> it's "oh dear, do I need to actually learn lua now"
00:14:46 <|amethyst> not really, just the C-Lua interface
00:15:05 <|amethyst> which, granted, is quite a bit uglier than Lua
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00:15:57 <PleasingFungus> TS__, |amethyst: as to whether gozag should be disabled at all or not, the argument that I've seen is that his wrath doesn't really work (true), bribe branch is too weak/needs a redesign (questionable?), duplicate doesn't really work at all (true), and in general he's a bit too weak (questionable).
00:16:24 <TS__> Well
00:16:42 <TS__> i ahve not played him, but duplicate is quite limited
00:16:48 <ProzacElf> i'm not sure what his wrath is supposed to do, but in practice the effect is pretty negligible
00:17:00 <Grunt> Bribe Branch: how to clear Elf:3 significantly earlier than you should be able to
00:17:07 <Grunt> (... that's basically the only use I've found for it)
00:17:37 <Bloaxor> Grunt: how early
00:18:51 <Kvaak> if you want to clear elf:3 early with divine support just go tso
00:18:56 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.15-a0-2386-g838f727 (34)
00:19:05 <Kvaak> you could probably do it with one angle if it wasn't for blademasters
00:19:12 <Kvaak> *angel
00:19:42 <Grunt> !lm * br.end=elf min=xl won
00:19:43 <Sequell> 14802. [2012-07-28 17:06:04] 4thArraOfDagon the Frost Mage (L12 DrHu of Ashenzari) reached level 5 of the Elven Halls on turn 13024. (Elf:5)
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00:19:50 <Grunt> hm
00:19:53 <Grunt> !lm * br.end=elf min=xl gozag won
00:19:53 <Sequell> 51. [2014-06-11 19:21:16] Chiseanne the Acrobat (L14 SpAs of Gozag) reached level 3 of the Elven Halls on turn 38340. (Elf:3)
00:19:54 <Lightli> !lm * br.end=elf min=xl won
00:19:56 <Sequell> 14802. [2012-07-28 17:06:04] 4thArraOfDagon the Frost Mage (L12 DrHu of Ashenzari) reached level 5 of the Elven Halls on turn 13024. (Elf:5)
00:20:01 <Lightli> !lm . br.end=elf min=xl won
00:20:02 <Sequell> 61. [2012-05-03 16:31:36] Lightli the Bringer of Life (L13 HOHe of Elyvilon) reached level 3 of the Elven Halls on turn 19945. (Elf:3)
00:20:16 <Grunt> !lm * br.end=elf recent gozag won
00:20:17 <Sequell> 51. [2014-07-29 06:32:32] johnnyzero the Spry (L17 SpWn of Gozag) reached level 3 of the Elven Halls on turn 45879. (Elf:3)
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00:20:37 <Grunt> !lm * br.end=elf recent won x=avg(xl)
00:20:38 <Sequell> 4493 milestones for * (br.end=elf recent won): avg(xl)=20.82
00:20:41 <Grunt> !lm * br.end=elf recent won !gozag x=avg(xl)
00:20:42 <Sequell> 4442 milestones for * (br.end=elf recent won !gozag): avg(xl)=20.84
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00:20:45 <Grunt> !lm * br.end=elf recent won gozag x=avg(xl)
00:20:46 <Sequell> 51 milestones for * (br.end=elf recent won gozag): avg(xl)=19.69
00:20:48 <Grunt> hm
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00:22:11 <PleasingFungus> the first and only time I used bribe branch, I got a red draconian monk buddy who shredded zot
00:22:28 <PleasingFungus> but apparently after I did that, bribe branch was nerfed
00:22:32 <Lightli> yeah
00:22:37 <Lightli> no more permanent allies from it
00:22:52 <PleasingFungus> they were only as permanent as your gold.......
00:22:58 <Lightli> true
00:22:59 <Lightli> clearly make bribe branch work on everything sentient to make up for it (i.e. bribable ancinet liches)
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00:25:14 <Cheibriados> Shoals assertion failure - mesmerise/behold 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8844 by johnnyzero
00:25:50 <PleasingFungus> ugh, that's probably my fault
00:25:52 <PleasingFungus> rip
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00:27:36 <PleasingFungus> anyway. I'd like to pass the gozag thing off onto someone else, since the relevant code seems touchy & I don't have a great deal of experience with a lot of it (versioning, lua interfacing & vault weight setting)
00:27:53 <PleasingFungus> but if no one else feels up to it, I'll try to muddle through it
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00:47:51 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.15-a0-2386-g838f727
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01:05:34 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.15-a0-2387-gbf02086: Make is_unavailable_god available to dlua. 10(53 seconds ago, 1 file, 20+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=bf02086bd654
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01:08:54 <PleasingFungus> nice
01:13:13 <|amethyst> maybe that belongs in a different namespace, I don't know
01:15:09 <|amethyst> but now you can do something like
01:16:36 <|amethyst> {{ if crawl.unavailable_god("Gozag") then _G.weight(0) end }}
01:16:40 <|amethyst> (on multiple lines)
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01:18:13 <|amethyst> don't use it with Jiyva in vault definitions
01:18:29 <|amethyst> since Jiyva can change availability during a game
01:18:56 <PleasingFungus> I wasn't planning on it
01:19:12 <|amethyst> (this does depend on str_to_god("Gozag") still working)
01:19:29 <|amethyst> anyway, I must be going now
01:19:37 <|amethyst> happy deicide
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01:31:37 <Lightli> rip gozag
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01:49:37 <TS__> ripip
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02:19:11 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.15-a0-2387-gbf02086 (34)
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02:26:22 <rchandra> why does \ have settings for the individual magical staves?  since they're redundant it would seem cleaner to not have the entries (players who lose their staff and need it back can manually get it), reducing page count
02:26:53 <rchandra> it seems less useful than having them for individual arrow brands, for example (and I don't think subentries for arrow brands is great)
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04:46:51 -!- The topic of ##crawl-dev is: Crawl Development | Logs: http://s-z.org/crawl-dev/ | People with +v have commit access. | Please keep general Crawl-related chit-chat to ##crawl. | Dev wiki: http://crawl.develz.org/wiki | Long stuff to pastebin.ca please | Immortal Warwalrus and Crazy Yiuf forever.
04:46:52 -!- The topic of ##crawl is: Play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup online now! Type ??cao, ??cdo, ??cszo, ??clan, or ??cbro for instructions. | http://crawl.develz.org | FooTV: http://termcast.develz.org - ??footv for instructions | See also ##crawl-offtopic
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07:30:59 <Lasty1> !tell |amethyst Thanks for catching that typo! I didn't notice the effect it had during testing.
07:30:59 <Sequell> Lasty1: OK, I'll let |amethyst know.
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09:18:05 <wheals> should we use the new unavailable god syntax to veto disso if jiyva's dead? very important for slime-diving formicids :)
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10:39:47 <wheals> const int MAX_TRIES = 100; 230         // If twenty tries wasn't enough, it's never going to work.
10:39:47 <wheals> if (tries >= MAX_TRIES)
10:39:48 <wheals> break;
10:40:16 <wheals> erg, messed up that formatting but you get the idea
10:42:04 <wheals> oh, this is |amethyst's fault :P
10:43:43 <wheals> that function could use a random_choose_weighted anyway
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10:59:53 <Bloax> is chei up2date
10:59:58 <Cheibriados> brown very ugly thing (08u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 18 | HP: 78-120 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 2708(acid:7d3) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(72), 08acid | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 1441 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.

10:59:58 <Bloax> %??Very ugly thing
11:00:00 <Bloax> he is!
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11:02:42 <Cheibriados> white very ugly thing (16u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 18 | HP: 76-121 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 2712(cold:18-53) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(72), 02cold++ | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 1441 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.

11:02:42 <Kvaak> %?? white very ugly thing
11:02:49 <Kvaak> these things are crazy mad
11:05:06 <Bloax> you know what else is crazy
11:05:11 <Cheibriados> unknown monster: "White very ugly thing"

11:05:11 <Bloax> %??White very ugly thing
11:05:15 <Cheibriados> white very ugly thing (16u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 18 | HP: 76-121 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 2712(cold:18-53) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(72), 02cold++ | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 1441 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.

11:05:15 <Bloax> %??white very ugly thing
11:05:25 <Bloax> it's case sensitive!
11:05:40 <PleasingFungus> don't be so sensitive
11:05:40 <Sequell> PleasingFungus: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
11:05:59 <Kvaak> good thing nobody uses proper grammar in irc
11:06:08 <PleasingFungus> wheals: I hadn't decided about adding it to rod of destruction
11:06:14 <PleasingFungus> was flip-flopping on the subject
11:06:18 <Kvaak> the horror if capitalizing the first letter was necessary
11:06:34 <Cheibriados> spriggan baker (16i) | Spd: 10 (move: 60%) | HD: 7 | HP: 15-34 | AC/EV: 1/18 | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, see invisible, 07vault | Res: 06magic(65) | XP: 218 | Sz: little | Int: high.

11:06:34 <wheals> %??Spriggan baker
11:06:47 <Cheibriados> unknown monster: "White ugly thing"

11:06:47 <wheals> %??White ugly thing
11:07:13 <wheals> PleasingFungus, well, crystal bolt is there!
11:07:21 <wheals> precedent for monster-only spells
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11:07:31 <PleasingFungus> more importantly, acid cloud is in rod of clouds
11:07:38 <PleasingFungus> precedent for player access to acid through rods
11:07:41 <wheals> if you don't add it, you should probably get rid of the zap_type
11:07:56 <wheals> clearly add back spiny worm for rod of swarm
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11:08:09 <Bloax> Imagine the horror that would be someone writing properly on IRC.
11:08:13 <Bloax> That would be terrible!
11:08:20 <Kvaak> don't forget vitriol card!
11:08:20 <PleasingFungus> much like your posting......
11:08:28 <PleasingFungus> I did forget vitriol, actually.
11:08:42 <wheals> rod of acidic destruction, makes a 3x3 acid explosion everywhere
11:08:51 <Kvaak> and yellow draconian breath but seriously who actually uses that
11:09:06 <PleasingFungus> acid bite........
11:09:09 <TS__> Yellow draconians
11:09:19 <wheals> i was thinking of adding an acid ds mutation
11:09:59 <TS__> When do we get acid spells
11:10:03 <PleasingFungus> never
11:10:17 <wheals> just play bcrawl
11:10:32 <minmay> acid damage is just physical damage that doesn't work in slime
11:10:45 <minmay> which isn't really interesting enough to support much of anything
11:11:09 <wheals> obvious solution: add rAcid- to monsters at random
11:11:13 <PleasingFungus> it also halves monster ac
11:11:18 <PleasingFungus> for monsters with armour
11:11:21 <PleasingFungus> iirc
11:11:36 <PleasingFungus> but yeah I agree it's not a strong player mechanic
11:11:43 <PleasingFungus> (which is one reason why acid damage spells for players are a bad idea)
11:11:56 <wheals> i just want consistency for rod of is_beam
11:12:26 <PleasingFungus> ...
11:12:30 <PleasingFungus> that is a silly thing
11:12:55 <PleasingFungus> note this will be a buff for rod of destruction
11:13:09 <Grunt> rod.is_beam = false;
11:13:56 <PleasingFungus> beem.is_rod
11:14:54 <wheals> Grunt.i_sgrunt = true;
11:15:07 <PleasingFungus> !!!
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12:14:31 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.15-a0-2387-gbf02086 (34)
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14:25:03 <wheals> wow, i have been installing msysgit for around 3 hours now
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14:25:20 <wheals> in fairness it's bottlenecked by USB link
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15:10:57 <PleasingFungus> Do we document the Lua API anywhere?
15:11:05 <PleasingFungus> our entry for ??lua is profoundly unhelpful.
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15:29:25 <MarvinPA> the lua documentation is "read all of l_foo.cc" iirc
15:30:45 <MarvinPA> so ??lua is probably as helpful as it gets!
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15:40:46 <PleasingFungus> rip
15:41:53 <Cheibriados> Grinder missing title 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8845 by Palyth
15:42:37 <PleasingFungus> Working As Intended
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15:53:31 <PleasingFungus> hm. not really sure how to make that clear to players
15:55:41 <Kvaak> prepend it with 'the'? :b
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16:00:22 <PleasingFungus> imho 'a'
16:00:30 <PleasingFungus> delicious!
16:00:54 <Kvaak> A Grinder, a Grinder and a Grinder come into view. You die...
16:03:16 <Lightli> 3 Cerebov comes into view.
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16:06:22 <PleasingFungus> could go for a good grinder right now
16:07:46 <Lasty> crawl only has  evil grinders
16:08:03 <Kvaak> grinder isn't evil, just misunderstood
16:08:52 <Lasty> holy wrath does extra damage to misfits
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16:16:50 <ontoclasm> the so called "good gods" are just like
16:16:50 <PleasingFungus> huh
16:16:52 <ontoclasm> the cool kids
16:16:55 <PleasingFungus> ??repulsiveness card
16:16:55 <Sequell> repulsiveness card[1/1]: summons ugly things or very ugly things, dependent on power
16:17:01 <PleasingFungus> accidental nemelex buff
16:17:03 <PleasingFungus> nice
16:17:04 <ontoclasm> grinder is a nerd so they hate him
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16:18:14 <|amethyst> !tell wheals I don't know if random_choose_weighted would really improve anything there, because you'd have to write all the weights as   player_will_anger_monster(MONS_BLAH) ? 0 : 1
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16:18:15 <Sequell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let wheals know.
16:18:46 <|amethyst> !tell wheals you could simplify that with a macro, but ugh
16:18:47 <Sequell> |amethyst: OK, I'll let wheals know.
16:21:04 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.15-a0-2388-g9f833ab: Fix a comment (wheals) 10(24 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9f833ab47f96
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16:46:36 <Cheibriados> Trying to eat unedible walls as a Fo with extended mandibles doesn't consume time but retracts them. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8846 by dck
16:48:50 <PleasingFungus> wtf
16:49:50 <PleasingFungus> oh, I... sort of see. the bug is that you can accidentally end up retracting your mandibles by moving into the wrong wall without even using up a turn...?
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16:54:34 <TS__> Why is walking slow not special cased to give extra healing per aut?
16:54:42 <TS__> sorry, why IS it*
16:54:52 <TS__> to not give extra healing
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16:56:18 <|amethyst> Because we haven't removed turns from the scoring formula yet
16:57:01 <TS__> ?
16:57:24 <|amethyst> Actually
16:57:33 <|amethyst> I think I misunderstand your question
16:57:40 <MarvinPA> PleasingFungus: that's not really a bug since extending your mandibles is instant and free
16:57:40 <TS__> Was the reasoning "We need to avert accidentally giving extra healing to nagas, chei, or both, while also preventing less healing for Ce, Sp, Te, Fe?"
16:57:56 <PleasingFungus> oh
16:58:01 <PleasingFungus> for some reason I thought it was costly
16:58:13 <PleasingFungus> I guess I was assuming based on the fact that the bug was filed in the first place
16:58:14 <|amethyst> TS__:  AIUI it's so that naga speedrunners aren't encouraged to walk back and forth rather than pressing 5
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16:58:47 <TS__> Oh it was actually done with that in mind?
16:58:57 <MarvinPA> no, capped healing when moving while slow is because nutrition usage is also capped when moving while slow
16:59:03 <|amethyst> oh
16:59:20 <TS__> So you don't get extra healing:nutrition?
16:59:36 <|amethyst> why is nutrition usage capped when moving while slow?
17:00:05 <MarvinPA> to prevent chei worshippers starving or something, there are old commits with reasoning somewhere
17:00:07 <TS__> So you don't get spammed with hunger messages as a Naga I imagine
17:00:15 <PleasingFungus> doesn't chei specifically slow your metabolism
17:00:28 <PleasingFungus> I know he does a bunch of weird hidden shit
17:00:30 <TS__> I assumed chei slowed it such that you ate half as much
17:00:35 <TS__> since you moved half as fast
17:00:40 <TS__> that would make sense
17:00:41 <PleasingFungus> !source misc.cc
17:00:41 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/misc.cc;hb=HEAD
17:00:52 <PleasingFungus> !source effects.cc
17:00:53 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/effects.cc;hb=HEAD
17:00:59 <read> 15:00 +PleasingFungus | doesn't chei specifically slow your metabolism
17:01:01 <read> yes
17:02:42 <|amethyst> still, it seems kind of weird that you would use more food while standing still than while walking
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17:03:53 <TS__> well, for a spriggan right? Since you wait at 1.0 but move at 0.6
17:03:59 <TS__> Or have I misunderstood
17:04:06 <|amethyst> TS__:  No, I mean for a naga
17:04:32 <TS__> well since it's capped you use the same right?
17:04:58 <TS__> 1 step at 1.4 vs. stand at 1.0 use the same amount since the cap is per turn
17:05:05 <|amethyst> right
17:05:14 <|amethyst> so you can walk five steps in 70 aut, or press . seven times in 70 aut
17:05:18 <|amethyst> and the latter takes more food
17:05:24 <TS__> Oh, right
17:05:31 <PleasingFungus> nagas are like sharks
17:05:36 <PleasingFungus> they have to keep moving, or die......
17:06:09 <TS__> I was thinking per turn not per aut
17:06:18 <TS__> which was how I got confused
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17:09:55 <TS__> Is aut scoring acutally going to be a thing in the future?
17:10:40 <wheals> |amethyst: i wasn't even thinking of weighting for god friendliness (I thought weights of 0 don't work??), just making it more clear that two monsters have triple weight
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17:11:28 <|amethyst> aha
17:11:54 <wheals> also, i had no idea that you worked on computational genomics stuff, that's pretty cool
17:12:22 <|amethyst> wheals:  and you're right, 0 doesn't work if you're using the varargs version
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17:12:40 <wheals> i had an internship at hopkins two years ago, though since i was an intern my job was "write bash scripts to run the programs"
17:13:38 <|amethyst> That's a significant part of what I do; also choosing the programs, maintaining databases, etc
17:14:13 <wheals> we were looking at reverse-transcripted mRNA and trying to map it to the genome (non-trivial because of introns, of course) which i guess is the converse of trying to find genes based on the DNA
17:14:14 <|amethyst> Sometimes I write the programs, but usually there's something already published that works well enough
17:15:18 <wheals> yeah, seems like it, pretty cool how it seems like a good number are open source
17:15:22 <|amethyst> wheals:  we use Exonerate for that (if the mRNA is already assembled), or bowtie + cufflinks if we just have reads
17:15:52 <wheals> yep, bowtie and cufflinks were what we were using (tophat too i think)
17:16:00 <|amethyst> oh, right, tophat
17:16:27 <|amethyst> tophat's the part that actually understands splicing
17:17:20 <|amethyst> !learn add |amethyst <+PleasingFungus> hey, sorry to break into gene-dev, but I have a small question
17:17:20 <Sequell> |amethyst[13/13]: <+PleasingFungus> hey, sorry to break into gene-dev, but I have a small question
17:17:54 <wheals> todo: double helix vaults
17:18:12 <Lantell> Unstable branch on crawl.lantea.net updated to: 0.15-a0-2388-g9f833ab (34)
17:18:32 <|amethyst> An angel, a giant orange brain, an iron troll, and a stone giant come into view.
17:19:22 <wheals> if the ending for random_choose_weighted were changed to -1 (as i think reaverb was trying to do) would weights of 0 work easily? or would more work be required?
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17:19:28 <wheals> s/iron troll/polar bear/
17:19:42 <wheals> :P
17:19:51 <wheals> oh wait, those are h now
17:19:53 <wheals> duh
17:20:31 <wheals> U should clearly be uncannily/almost entirely ugly things
17:20:55 <wheals> replace orb guardians with purple almost entirely ugly things
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17:25:52 <Lasty> D:9 purple ugly thing. Surprisingly, it's listed as a nasty threat. Should I be scared?
17:26:08 <|amethyst> Lasty:  would you have been scared of a very ugly thing before?
17:26:16 <Cheibriados> purple ugly thing (06u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 48-84 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 22 | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48) | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 557 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal.

17:26:16 <|amethyst> %?? purple ugly thing
17:26:18 <Lasty> yes
17:26:21 <Cheibriados> purple very ugly thing (13u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 45-85 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 1804(rot) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48), 04rot | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 803 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.

17:26:21 <|amethyst> %0.14? purple very ugly thing
17:26:30 <Lasty> I see.
17:26:46 <Lasty> I think I'll let that one sleep
17:26:47 <Cheibriados> komodo dragon (04l) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 8 | HP: 28-59 | AC/EV: 7/8 | Dam: 3007(disease) | amphibious, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(32), 12drown | Chunks: 07contam | XP: 313 | Sz: Large | Int: reptile.

17:26:47 <PleasingFungus> %0.14?komodo dragon
17:26:52 <PleasingFungus> huh
17:26:57 <Cheibriados> purple very ugly thing (13u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 18 | HP: 76-121 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 36 | 10doors | Res: 06magic(72) | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 1441 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.

17:26:57 <Bloax> %??purple very ugly thing
17:26:59 <PleasingFungus> for some reason I thought old purple ugly things had plague, not rot
17:27:09 <Lasty> very ugly things had rot
17:27:16 <Lasty> ugly things had sickness
17:27:17 <Cheibriados> purple ugly thing (06u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 8 | HP: 25-58 | AC/EV: 3/9 | Dam: 1307(disease) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(32), 04rot | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 197 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal.

17:27:17 <Bloax> %0.14?purple ugly thing
17:27:20 <Bloax> yep
17:27:21 <PleasingFungus> ahh
17:27:35 <PleasingFungus> also I keep seeing people plowing through ugly things like they weren't even there and it makes me sad :(
17:27:37 <PleasingFungus> imho nerf gargoyles
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17:27:50 <Bloax> yes
17:27:54 <Bloax> stone arrow is too good
17:28:09 <|amethyst> not those gargoyles :P
17:28:25 <Lasty> The ones that can wield demon whips and have 70+ AC :D
17:28:37 <Bloax> well let people have their fun if they so wish
17:28:46 <Bloax> they could always roll a MuCK if they wanted it rough
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17:42:41 <Lasty> It looks like the main change for the ugly things is that they're more willing to stand in fire . . .
17:43:03 <Lightli> how to nerf gargoyles: reduce their hp to -3
17:43:06 <Lightli> problem solved
17:43:21 <PleasingFungus> !apt gr
17:43:22 <Sequell> Gr: Fighting: 1, Short: -1, Long: -1, Axes: -1, Maces: 0, Polearms: -1, Staves: 0, Slings: -1, Bows: 0, Xbows: 0, Throw: 0, Armour: 1, Dodge: -2, Stealth: 2, Shields: 1, UC: 0, Splcast: -1, Conj: 1, Hexes: -1, Charms: -1, Summ: -1, Nec: -2, Tloc: -1, Tmut: -2, Fire: 0, Ice: 0, Air: -2, Earth: 2, Poison: 0, Inv: 1, Evo: 0, Exp: 0, HP: -2, MP: 0
17:43:29 <PleasingFungus> for some reason I thought it was already -3
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17:45:34 <TS__> Didn't gargs just get nerfed
17:45:58 <TS__> and they've been nerfed several times since creation
17:46:13 <PleasingFungus> they did, yes, which is why I am not seriously angling for a nerf
17:46:17 <TS__> oh ok
17:46:30 <PleasingFungus> just bitter about my beautiful ugly things being so callously murdered
17:46:42 <TS__> strong
17:46:45 <TS__> beautiful
17:46:48 <TS__> ugly things
17:47:02 <TS__> is the bot updated now?
17:47:06 <TS__> for their damage and such
17:47:10 <Cheibriados> Monster stats Crawl version: 0.15-a0-2374-gaadabb3

17:47:10 <|amethyst> %??-version
17:47:12 <|amethyst> %git
17:47:12 <Cheibriados> 07|amethyst02 * 0.15-a0-2388-g9f833ab: Fix a comment (wheals) 10(87 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=9f833ab47f96
17:47:15 <TS__> $??ugly thing
17:47:19 <Cheibriados> purple ugly thing (06u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 12 | HP: 46-82 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 22 | 10doors | Res: 06magic(48) | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 555 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal.

17:47:19 <TS__> %??ugly thing
17:47:26 <Lasty> Your beautiful ugly things may be dying of paradox
17:49:29 <PleasingFungus> yeah rip
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17:54:39 <Bloax> maybe purple uglies should get an extra auxiliary attack
17:55:07 <|amethyst> that would make them *less* effective against gargoyle players
17:55:18 <PleasingFungus> and, in all likelihood, in general
17:55:24 <PleasingFungus> though I guess it depends on the exact numbers
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17:56:18 <|amethyst> maybe the +5 damage isn't enough to make up for not getting 7d3 or 12-23 or whatever
17:56:36 <PleasingFungus> it's +9 on very ugly things!!!
17:56:52 <PleasingFungus> (now)
17:57:10 <PleasingFungus> specifically it's +33%
17:57:21 <PleasingFungus> ...but yes, plausibly
17:57:23 <PleasingFungus> hm
17:57:32 <PleasingFungus> !lg * recent killer~~ugly s=killer
17:57:33 <Sequell> 1660 games for * (recent killer~~ugly): 561x a white ugly thing, 333x a red ugly thing, 251x a cyan ugly thing, 213x a brown ugly thing, 100x a green ugly thing, 43x a white very ugly thing, 34x a purple ugly thing, 31x uglyjohn's ghost, 25x a brown very ugly thing, 21x a cyan very ugly thing, 16x a red very ugly thing, 15x a green very ugly thing, 12x a purple very ugly thing, 4x UglyThing's ghos...
17:57:43 <Bloax> i'm not saying remove their bonus damage
17:57:48 <Bloax> just give them yet another bonus :^)
17:58:00 <|amethyst> possibly that
17:58:15 <PleasingFungus> green ugly things got buffed recently
17:58:22 <PleasingFungus> !lg * recent killer~~ugly s=killer cv=0.15-a
17:58:23 <Sequell> 621 games for * (recent killer~~ugly cv=0.15-a): 213x a white ugly thing, 128x a red ugly thing, 91x a brown ugly thing, 87x a cyan ugly thing, 32x a green ugly thing, 16x a purple ugly thing, 15x a white very ugly thing, 14x uglyjohn's ghost, 6x a red very ugly thing, 6x a brown very ugly thing, 5x a purple very ugly thing, 4x a cyan very ugly thing, 3x a green very ugly thing, a cyan ugly thing ...
17:58:26 <PleasingFungus> since rpois
17:58:45 <Bloax> purples are still at the rock bottom
17:59:12 <PleasingFungus> welllll
17:59:13 <Bloax> clearly they should just be spectral uglies then :^)
17:59:24 <Bloax> ignoring half your AC because haha spectral warriors
17:59:27 <PleasingFungus> purple very ugly things seem more effective than ugly things
17:59:42 <Bloax> how big are the packs anyhow
17:59:44 <PleasingFungus> and ugly things just got upgraded to v ugly
17:59:49 <PleasingFungus> !source mon-place.cc
17:59:50 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/mon-place.cc;hb=HEAD
18:00:05 <PleasingFungus> 3-6
18:01:28 <PleasingFungus> I'm gonna let ugly things sit for a little while.
18:01:50 <PleasingFungus> no sense making more changes while the impact from the first ones is still settling.
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18:02:39 <Bloax> well the more delicious change is that they pack some exp with them now
18:03:47 <PleasingFungus> I am also worried about that
18:03:49 <PleasingFungus> should run objstat
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18:34:42 <Lasty> Is there a key to show which items on a level can't be reached with autoexplore? If not, can we create one? I hate getting that "you can't reach some items" message when I have no idea what I can't reach
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18:38:31 <geekosaur> likewise places, especially in lair
18:41:57 <Lasty> PleasingFungus: I'm seeing lots of solo ugly things between d9 and d12
18:42:06 <Lasty> PleasingFungus: none of them have been the slightest challenge
18:44:40 <PleasingFungus> are you postlair
18:46:12 <PleasingFungus> tbh I'm not worried about pre-d:13 ugly things being insufficiently dangerous; they've already killed several people even in the day since the buff
18:46:24 <PleasingFungus> it's the vaults/depths that I'm worried about
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18:47:01 <Bloax> do very uglies still come with plain uglies
18:47:14 <Bloax> or do you actually get to fight six of them now
18:47:16 <PleasingFungus> a mix of plain & very ugly iirc
18:47:44 <PleasingFungus> 25% very ugly below absdepth 21
18:47:53 <PleasingFungus> !source branch-data.h
18:47:54 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/branch-data.h;hb=HEAD
18:48:21 <PleasingFungus> aka depths and vaults 4-5
18:49:30 <Bloax> because if they're still "not the slightest challenge" then clearly making uglies move at speed 12/13 and in slightly bigger packs should make them more threatening
18:50:02 <Bloax> (because haha retreating to corridors)
18:50:26 <Bloax> the bigger packs is probably a bit ogrekill in that case
18:50:31 <PleasingFungus> [16:01]	<PleasingFungus>	no sense making more changes while the impact from the first ones is still settling.
18:50:37 <Bloax> yes
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18:54:20 <Lasty> PleasingFungus: It was mostly pre-lair
18:54:34 <Bloax> What combo?
18:54:39 <Lasty> HeGl
18:54:43 <Lasty> ^veh
18:54:55 <Bloax> not exactly a powerhouse
18:54:58 <Bloax> hm
18:55:16 <PleasingFungus> ??philosophers
18:55:16 <Sequell> philosophers[1/1]: friedrich nietzchei, ludwig wittgenchein, georg wilhelm friedrich HEGl, soren kikugaard and nicolo macheivelli, arthur chepinhauer, SpEnoza
18:55:33 <PleasingFungus> !lg * killer~~ugly
18:55:34 <Sequell> 3516. bigpimpin the Hoplite (L10 MiFi of Trog), slain by a white ugly thing on D:11 on 2014-08-01 21:04:44, with 7672 points after 11960 turns and 0:21:32.
18:55:40 <PleasingFungus> rip
18:56:03 <Lasty> I see what you did there
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19:19:01 <Cheibriados> Melee weapon tiles 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8847 by roctavian
19:19:12 <roctavian> _done_
19:20:20 <read> Woah that's rad
19:20:21 <Bloax> >no shiny bigass axes for cutting bigass shiny guts
19:20:23 <Bloax> ;_;
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19:40:36 <Zannick> john LOCKe
19:40:53 <ontoclasm> roctavian: have i ever told you that you're my heeero
19:40:54 <Zannick> LOCKe and DEMothenes
19:41:05 <Zannick> LOCKe and DEMosthenes
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19:42:15 <roctavian> ontoclasm: my pleasure. btw, did you ever see those spider tiles i put up? it happened right before some server outage so you may have missed them
19:42:53 <ontoclasm> yeah, i saw them, i just haven't gotten around to putting them in
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19:43:16 <ontoclasm> actually, there was one
19:43:27 <roctavian> what was your thought on the jumping spider? that's the questionable one i think
19:43:38 <ontoclasm> yeah, that's the one
19:43:44 <roctavian> it's a real spider
19:43:50 <ontoclasm> it looks a bit small to me; jumping spiders hit pretty hard
19:44:05 <ontoclasm> maybe just make the legs a bit longer
19:44:13 <roctavian> http://www.indigorenderer.com/sites/default/files/images/spidy_5407spx_02.jpg
19:44:20 <Bloax> https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8711
19:44:25 <ontoclasm> adorable
19:44:38 <roctavian> man almost every spider is cute
19:44:51 <roctavian> i feel bad for arachnophobes
19:44:58 <Bloax> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsGvT2DYJMc
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19:45:52 <Lasty> So many tile-wranglers in around right now . . . anyone feel like taking a pass at a Ru altar? :D
19:46:35 <roctavian> i was thinking a guillotine
19:46:38 <roctavian> shape
19:46:47 <roctavian> on top of the standard rectangle altar
19:47:06 <roctavian> i feel that it visually depicts the usage of the god well
19:47:15 <roctavian> but i don't know if that works for the flavor you've envisioned
19:47:52 <Lasty> why a guillotine?
19:48:08 <roctavian> chop off your hand with it, etc
19:49:14 <Lasty> Most of the sacrifices don't involve chopping per se . . . under the current flavor, you're being awakened to the truth underneath reality via the sacrifices . . . how would you feel about using an open eye as a symbol?
19:49:30 <Lasty> (over the standard altar)
19:49:32 <roctavian> ashenzari's altar has an eye shape incorporated into it
19:49:37 <Lasty> ah, nm
19:49:53 <ontoclasm> well, it could be a different eye xD
19:50:10 <roctavian> it's true, though i do think if it looks more eye like, it would seem like the god of seeing stuff
19:50:30 <roctavian> i've wanted to emphasize the eye in the ashenzari altar for a while, but i'm not sure when i'll ever get to
19:50:55 <Lasty> The two symbols I had in mind were knife and eye, but both could be misinterpreted. So, if guillotine says "Ru" to you, I can get behind it.
19:51:00 <roctavian> i feel like for ru, at least something that looks harmful but given a kind of spooky benign glow
19:51:32 <ontoclasm> could be a stylized knife / eye combo
19:51:55 <Lightli> "Sacrifice Eye"
19:52:12 <roctavian> i now just thought if...
19:52:13 <roctavian> hmm...
19:52:28 <roctavian> like a hand holding a knife in a way that it's harming itself/stabbing into an eye
19:52:56 <roctavian> a knife plunged into an eye that is in a hand?
19:53:08 <Lasty> Lightli: the best thing I've been able to come up w/ for a sac eye effect is making all monsters at distance > 4 are "a monster-shaped blur"
19:53:30 <roctavian> bloax, you're the one with the black metal album covers here
19:53:42 <Bloax> huh
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19:54:44 <roctavian> ^ what would be your ru altar concept
19:57:52 <Bloax> have you considered a screaming skull with blood pouring out of its eyesockets
19:58:03 <Bloax> maybe even an eyeball in one of them
19:58:20 <ontoclasm> bloax.jpg
19:58:21 <Bloax> and have a dagger lying in there somewhere
19:58:28 <Bloax> and when you join him
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19:58:30 <Bloax> the eye is gone
19:58:33 <Bloax> and so is the dagger
19:58:34 <Lasty> How can I not consider it when I see it in the mirror every morning?
19:58:59 <roctavian> lasty are you a screaming skull?
19:59:05 <Patashu_> couldn't the altar just be a set of scales
19:59:10 <Patashu_> with something in each half
19:59:21 <ontoclasm> scales are nice
19:59:24 <Lasty> roctavian: Either that or there's one hanging around my bathroom mirror
19:59:39 <Bloax> http://38.media.tumblr.com/f8396fdf867af5eeeb7c1c0c8982cc43/tumblr_n4dtkdZvpn1s5pvv9o4_1280.jpg he is secretly sithrak
19:59:46 <ontoclasm> lasty are you ru i r l
19:59:51 <Lasty> Patashu_: I'd like that. Heart in one scale, a magical power burst in the other
19:59:55 <Patashu_> yeah
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20:00:04 <roctavian> bloax i was thinking of a different one of those
20:00:07 <Lasty> ontoclasm: What are you willing to give up for that knowledge?
20:00:26 <Bloax> roctavian: well i couldn't get my mind off that at the moment after you asked
20:00:28 <Bloax> so yeah
20:00:44 <ontoclasm> Lasty: what can i get for my sense of direction
20:01:02 <roctavian> http://media.oglaf.com/comic/bascinet.jpg
20:01:47 <Lasty> ontoclasm: Transendental knowledge of your place in the universe or a lifetime of $5 footlongs from Subway
20:01:51 <eb_> good oglaf linking technique
20:02:06 * ontoclasm hesitates
20:02:29 <ontoclasm> i... can't decide!
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20:02:40 <ontoclasm> anyway, i'll leave you guys to it
20:02:41 <Lasty> It's a toughy
20:02:46 <ontoclasm> night bro(seph)s
20:02:54 <roctavian> night chief
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20:03:26 <Lasty> I hope he's still able to find his bed . . .
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20:21:57 <Cryp71c> Evening
20:22:58 <Patashu_> yo
20:23:08 <Bloax> hi
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20:47:38 <Kramin> can someone please buff crosstraining?
20:47:56 <Kramin> my 12 shortblades skill gives me 4 LB skill
20:48:03 <Kramin> which is basically nothing
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20:51:16 <Patashu_> 12 shortblades skill was 'basically nothing' too
20:52:44 <Kramin> yeah, but under old crosstraining I could now quickly train LB to 12 with a +2 apt rather than a -2 apt
20:55:23 <Cryp71c> Kramin, logically speaking, knowing how to handle a short blade would really only lend to the ability to handle a longsword with some basic competency. Fighting with a longsword is nothing like fighting with a sabre.
20:56:04 <Cryp71c> Kramin, crosstraining is not intended to entirely ease switching weapon category specialization, or otherwise everyone would do it as soon as they found an even moderately good weapon.
20:57:19 <Cryp71c> IIRC, that same argument was one of the issues with old crosstraining; it was too easy to switch weapon categories even if you had not-great apts.
20:57:40 <Kramin> ok
20:57:43 <eb_> weapon class switching is still one of the great mysteries of crawl either way
20:58:00 <Cryp71c> eb_, great mysteries?
20:58:03 <Kramin> It's just annoying to be stuck with shortblades past the early game
20:58:14 <eb_> people tell everyone to not do it unless it's an exception but nobody really agrees on where to draw the line
20:58:26 <Cryp71c> Kramin, I know your pain; I do appreciate your feedback!
20:58:27 <eb_> Cryp71c: I mean it's something you can't really write a guide for
20:58:34 <eb_> and that's good I guess
20:59:06 <eb_> I haven't played with new crosstraining yet tho
20:59:12 <Cryp71c> Kramin, if I might suggest; most short-bladers find some solace in ranged weapons.
20:59:36 <Kramin> It seems to me like th old system made sense in terms of realism, if you can fight with a short blade you don't immediately know how to fight with a long blade, but it's easier to learn
21:00:06 <Patashu_> Hey, now that corrosion is being added to everything... Why not make orange demons apply corrosion instead of weakness?
21:00:10 <Patashu_> Since weakness is kind of ely's gimmick
21:00:15 <Patashu_> And it seems pretty weird to put it on a monster too
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21:00:22 <Kramin> obviously the old system led to wierdness though
21:00:48 <Cryp71c> Kramin, I was of that same mind for a long while too, but the more I thought about it...the more I found flaws in my logic.
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21:01:37 <Cryp71c> Kramin, depending on the crosstraining you're arguing for/against, there isn't much in the way of specific technique which applies between - say - a SB and a LB in RL.
21:02:38 <Cryp71c> You might use some similar techniques in applying body-force or in slash vs stab techniques from a very general perspective, but the slash of a longsword does not lend itself to the slash of a sabre.
21:03:46 <Cryp71c> In any case, the current crosstraining is largely liked (I believe) amongst the developers as feeling more balanced.
21:05:59 <Kramin> yeah, that kinda makes sense
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21:37:17 <reaverb> Patashu: Orange demons had the "Weak" status before Ely.
21:37:17 <Sequell> reaverb: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
21:38:12 <PleasingFungus> eh?
21:38:20 <PleasingFungus> Cryp71c: honestly I'm not a big fan of new crosstraining
21:38:21 <PleasingFungus> insofar as
21:38:23 <PleasingFungus> it doesn't exist
21:38:28 <Grunt> ???
21:38:36 <Patashu> reaverb: wow, really?
21:38:37 <PleasingFungus> 20% ~ 0%
21:38:44 <PleasingFungus> roughly
21:38:56 <PleasingFungus> (also)
21:38:58 <PleasingFungus> !learn add Bloax <Bloax> have you considered a screaming skull with blood pouring out of its eyesockets
21:38:59 <Sequell> Bloax[2/2]: <Bloax> have you considered a screaming skull with blood pouring out of its eyesockets
21:39:08 <reaverb> Patashu: Yeah, giving orange demons something to do was why the Weak status was implemented.
21:39:10 <Bloax> ??bloax[1]
21:39:10 <Sequell> Bloax[1/2]: http://i.imgur.com/pk9DWon.png
21:39:25 <Patashu> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=2190e9bcd54bc3c6b8dedeebb2b420c87d192572
21:39:36 <Cryp71c> PleasingFungus, well...its just not really crosstraining, it should be called something else
21:39:37 <Patashu> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=8b20ddbdfad19a53daf7729442d215fabc32e6ab
21:39:39 <Patashu> ah, interesting
21:39:53 <PleasingFungus> I think the % xp mechanic is okay but the exact percent could probably be adjusted upwards
21:40:16 <Cryp71c> ??crosstraining
21:40:17 <Sequell> cross training[1/1]: Some weapon skills train twice as fast if you have another skill at higher level. Pairs that allow cross training are Short <-> Long Blades, Maces <-> Axes, Axes <-> Polearms, Polearms <-> Staves, Maces <-> Staves also Slings<->Throwing. Changed to a skill boost in .15.
21:40:45 <Cryp71c> PleasingFungus, you mean the old % mechanic?
21:40:55 <PleasingFungus> no?
21:41:07 <Cryp71c> IDK who you're talking to or what you're referencing.
21:41:21 <PleasingFungus> 21:03:46 <Cryp71c> In any case, the current crosstraining is largely liked (I believe) amongst the developers as feeling more balanced.
21:41:41 <PleasingFungus> I am dev; hear me roar
21:41:53 <Cryp71c> PleasingFungus, ah, gotcha. lol....old crosstraining was retarded powerful, and didn't make sense to boot.
21:41:57 <Bloax> it should probably be more like 33% instead of 20%
21:42:06 <Cryp71c> (not that I'm suggesting that was the driving reason why it was changed)
21:42:21 <PleasingFungus> I think we should have a solid design rationale behind the numbers before deciding on the new values
21:42:54 <reaverb> Oh speaking of % xp mechanics it looks like ash penance still uses a differant code path then other god wraths even though all god wrath expries with XP now?
21:43:02 <PleasingFungus> nice
21:45:35 <PleasingFungus> the motivation behind crosstraining, as I see it, is... well. for the quad of melee weapons that crosstrain (staves <-> polearms <-> axes <-> m&f <-> staves?), it's to make otherwise second-tier weapon classes somewhat stronger in the early game, by letting you switch more easily based on what you've found.
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21:46:45 <PleasingFungus> sbl & lbl are to give an easier path to "upwards mobility" for stabbers (if they so desire), and slings <-> throwing is... a nice bonus for slings-users, since that weapon class is arguably slightly weaker than the others...? idk, it probably doesn't need to be a thing.
21:47:04 <PleasingFungus> right now, I would argue that crosstraining doesn't serve those goals, insofar as 20% xp is fuck and all.
21:47:43 <Cryp71c> PleasingFungus, what's the 20% xp ? I'm not familiar w/ anything like that on the new crosstraining mechanic?
21:48:03 <PleasingFungus> that is what the new crosstraining mechanic is.
21:48:27 <PleasingFungus> 20% of the xp you put into a given skill is added as a bonus to crosstrained skills.
21:48:37 <PleasingFungus> !source player.cc:6357
21:48:37 <Sequell> http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/player.cc;hb=HEAD#l6357
21:48:52 <PleasingFungus> (20% = 1/5)
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21:49:13 <reaverb> 20% of the differance between the higher skill and the lower skill IIRC.
21:49:21 <PleasingFungus> no
21:49:34 <PleasingFungus> effective_points += skill_points[cross_skills[i]] / 5;
21:49:55 <PleasingFungus> 20% of the difference would be.... even less of a thing
21:50:28 <Cryp71c> PleasingFungus, ...so it doesn't use a flat skill boost anymore? Thats been the most appropriate-feeling mechanic of the handful I've seen tried.
21:50:37 <PleasingFungus> I don't believe it ever did
21:50:45 <PleasingFungus> %git 7ac96da2
21:50:46 <Cheibriados> 07|amethyst02 * 0.15-a0-1449-g7ac96da: Fix indentation and improve a type. 10(7 weeks ago, 1 file, 6+ 6-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7ac96da2e14c
21:51:18 <PleasingFungus> sorry, poking git blame, give me a sec
21:51:26 <reaverb> Hmm.
21:51:29 <Cryp71c> Pretty certain I recall that crosstraining used to give (effectively) +apt (maybe +4 apt?), then it was changed to be +skill, and now its on this mechanic.
21:51:43 <PleasingFungus> %git 7c1a5597
21:51:43 <Cheibriados> 07bh02 * 0.15-a0-1447-g7c1a559: Convert crosstraining into an enhancer bonus 10(7 weeks ago, 6 files, 28+ 87-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=7c1a5597fd58
21:51:50 <reaverb> I'm 99% sure it was +apt when it was changed.
21:51:58 <PleasingFungus> reaverb is correct
21:52:08 <PleasingFungus> possibly +skill was something that someone experimented with but never put into trunk
21:52:46 <Cryp71c> I'm not sure on the time table, but I'm quite certain that trunk has +skill...it would have been a couple of years ago, though...idk.
21:52:52 <Cryp71c> Not terribly relevant.
21:53:03 <PleasingFungus> perhaps not.
21:53:21 <Cryp71c> s/has/had/
21:53:49 <PleasingFungus> anyway, I think it is not too close to release to change that "5" to another number.
21:54:19 <PleasingFungus> if we agree that it's warranted.
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21:55:44 <reaverb> I think if cross-training should exist it should be bigger, so it has more of an effect.
21:55:50 <PleasingFungus> yes.
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21:56:06 <elliptic> I haven't played with the new crosstraining, but I was involved in the original discussions for the change so I know how it works, and 20% does sound way low
21:56:07 <Bloax> change it to 3
21:56:14 <Cryp71c> I'm not sure how it *feels* atm but back when it was effectively +apt, it was too strong.
21:56:18 <PleasingFungus> I was thinking either 3 or 2.
21:56:22 <elliptic> clearly weaker than old crosstraining, and the purpose of the change wasn't to make it weaker
21:56:22 <PleasingFungus> (33% or 50%.)
21:56:28 <Bloax> it's pretty neat at 0 skill in the bonus skill
21:56:30 <elliptic> Cryp71c: the purpose of the change wasn't to make it weaker...
21:56:31 <PleasingFungus> elliptic, do you have an opinion?
21:56:41 <Bloax> but beyond that it's not very big at the moment
21:56:41 <Cryp71c> elliptic, what was the purpose?
21:56:45 <elliptic> 3 or 2 both sound fine to me
21:56:55 <Bloax> actually
21:56:56 <elliptic> Cryp71c: remove a lot of really weird behavior that happened with the old system
21:56:59 <Bloax> i'd say go with 2
21:57:06 <PleasingFungus> of course you would :)
21:57:07 <Bloax> you can always nerf it to 3 if it's too good
21:57:12 <Bloax> >:^)
21:57:15 <PleasingFungus> hi bloax!
21:57:21 <Kramin> there was wierd interaction with training polearms and staves in tandem being more xp efficient than just staves
21:57:23 <Cryp71c> elliptic, and also, am I crazy? Wasn't there a time when trunk had +skill instead of +apt crosstraining?
21:57:28 <elliptic> no
21:57:36 <Kramin> for example
21:57:49 <Kramin> (on Mf)
21:58:06 <elliptic> Kramin: well, that would still be the case with 50% really
21:58:16 <Bloax> the best way to test things like this is to go overboard on your first estimate
21:58:22 <Bloax> so as to see the difference clearer
21:58:41 <Kramin> no it wouldn't
21:58:43 <Bloax> since then you'll know that /5 is too low and /2 is maybe too high
21:58:44 <elliptic> er I guess it wouldn't actually? how does this crosstraining work exactly
21:58:50 <elliptic> does it use experience or skill points
21:59:03 <reaverb> elliptic: It uses skill points IIRC
21:59:03 <Kramin> because with a lower apt the 50% skill points won't go as far
21:59:12 <reaverb> It's the one that is effected by apts.
21:59:31 <reaverb> s/effected/affected/
21:59:35 <PleasingFungus> imho this is very easy to test in wizmode :)
21:59:52 <elliptic> IIRC apts work by modifying the cost of skill points
22:00:41 <elliptic> if so, then with 50% crosstraining there would still be issues with training polearms on Mf being a more efficient way of raising axes/staves
22:00:51 <elliptic> but someone should check this to make sure that I am correct
22:00:53 <PleasingFungus> let me test
22:01:06 <elliptic> if I am, then I'd say go with the 33%
22:01:29 <PleasingFungus> if you are, surely it should be based on the other number instead...
22:01:32 <elliptic> no
22:03:58 <elliptic> hm, maybe I'm wrong
22:04:01 <PleasingFungus> yeah
22:04:02 <Kramin> I'm pretty sure skill points are calculated before apts are applied
22:04:02 <Grunt> hm
22:04:12 <Kramin> otherwise ash would be wierd
22:04:15 <PleasingFungus> spawning and debug-killing an oof put polearms to 20 & staves to 6
22:04:17 <PleasingFungus> on a mf
22:04:20 <Kramin> with skill transfer
22:04:28 <elliptic> it's been a while since I've looked at this code carefully
22:04:32 <elliptic> Kramin: right, yeah
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22:05:06 <PleasingFungus> leveling staves directly puts it to 13 (and polearms to 10)
22:05:08 <PleasingFungus> hey, bh!
22:05:12 <bh> yes PF?
22:05:13 <PleasingFungus> we're talking about crosstraining
22:05:17 <bh> ok
22:05:18 <PleasingFungus> was there a particular reason you chose 20%/
22:05:20 <elliptic> so right, 50% sounds about right to me then
22:05:20 <PleasingFungus> ?
22:05:29 <elliptic> in terms of being comparable to old crosstraining
22:05:32 <Kramin> would be funny to see Mf of ash purely training polearms and then transfering the skill points into other skills XD
22:05:35 <bh> MPA or elliptic had suggested it
22:05:52 <PleasingFungus> aight
22:06:02 <elliptic> maybe 40%
22:06:04 <Bloax> i'm pretty sure it was mentioned in some thread that the aptitudes affect how many skill points a skill level requires
22:06:11 <elliptic> yeah, that is correct
22:06:34 <Bloax> which would make a skill at 20 with a +4 apt be worth much less than a skill at 20 with a -2 apt
22:06:54 <PleasingFungus> hm. now I need to delete my 0.15 tag, check to make sure it's gone, push this commit, then re-add the tag
22:06:56 <Lightli> !apt ogre
22:06:57 <Sequell> Og: Fighting: 3!, Short: -4*, Long: -3*, Axes: -3*, Maces: 3!, Polearms: 0, Staves: -1, Slings: -3, Bows: -3, Xbows: -3, Throw: 1, Armour: -2, Dodge: -1, Stealth: -1, Shields: -1, UC: -1, Splcast: 1, Conj: -3*, Hexes: -3, Charms: -3, Summ: -3*, Nec: -3*, Tloc: -3*, Tmut: -3, Fire: -3*, Ice: -3*, Air: -3, Earth: -3*, Poison: -3*, Inv: 1, Evo: -1, Exp: 0, HP: 3!, MP: 0
22:06:57 <PleasingFungus> testing gozag shit is hard
22:07:20 <Lightli> is this related to getting gozag out of stable?
22:07:25 <PleasingFungus> yes
22:07:40 <Bloax> rip happy merchant god
22:07:40 <Sequell> rip
22:07:59 <PleasingFungus> is he really all that happy?
22:08:02 <PleasingFungus> I never got that impression
22:08:23 <PleasingFungus> also, bloax, do you know what png-squashing tool |amethyst uses?
22:08:40 <PleasingFungus> Version string 'help' is malformed.
22:08:42 <PleasingFungus> wtf
22:08:53 <|amethyst> docs/develop/tiles_creation.txt
22:09:08 <Bloax> did you include advpng
22:09:08 <|amethyst> see section 9
22:09:32 <PleasingFungus> found it
22:09:34 <PleasingFungus> thanks!
22:09:42 <bh> if anyone wants to run my awful zombie generator, I'd be pleased :)
22:09:47 <PleasingFungus> Bloax: optipng & advpng, apparently
22:10:02 <Bloax> mmm
22:10:04 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  what does   git describe --tags   say?
22:10:05 <bh> do those do better than imagemagick?
22:10:19 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: "help"
22:10:35 <Lightli> rip gozag
22:10:36 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  sounds like you made a tag called 'help'
22:10:46 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  git tag help   instead of  git tag --help  perhaps?
22:10:51 <Lightli> kept out of .15 for being a weaker god than chei (somehow)
22:10:52 <PleasingFungus> yep I totally did
22:10:53 -!- serious has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:10:54 <PleasingFungus> rip
22:10:58 <PleasingFungus> Lightli: that is not what is going on
22:11:03 <Lightli> oh
22:11:09 <elliptic> PleasingFungus: okay after thinking about it a bit more I think it should be somewhat less than 50% for sure
22:11:12 <PleasingFungus> it's a design issue, not a power problem
22:11:19 <Bloax> (>imblygin chei is a weak god)
22:11:27 <Lightli> i.e. his wrath?
22:11:28 <PleasingFungus> elliptic: mm?
22:11:42 <elliptic> PleasingFungus: since at 50%, it is already strictly superior to old crosstraining between two skills with the same apt even if you don't care about the old skill
22:11:50 <PleasingFungus> true
22:12:17 <PleasingFungus> 40%, then?
22:12:29 <PleasingFungus> probably still slightly stronger, but not unbearably
22:13:58 <elliptic> at 40% it is still obviously better than old crosstraining in the short term (since you don't start at 0), but once you raise the second skill up to the value that the first skill started at, it is somewhat worse (assuming you don't care about the first skill anymore)
22:14:00 <bh> what is the equivalent percentage for +4 bonus applied to two 0-apt skills trained to the same level?
22:14:07 <elliptic> so hopefully that balances it a bit
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22:15:04 <bh> Say, a human training long blades to 10, then short blades to 10.
22:15:06 <elliptic> bh: if you care about both skills then 25%, but usually in practice you don't care about the second skill boosting the first by a bit
22:16:28 <elliptic> oh, I guess I mean 33%
22:17:10 <bh> PF: since this came up, I'm guessing you think new crosstraining is too weak compared to old?
22:17:20 <elliptic> since if you want to get both skills to 4000 skill points, then with the old system that would cost 6000 skill points
22:17:23 <PleasingFungus> yes, reaverb & I and others were talking about it
22:17:39 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.15-a0-2389-gecce74e: Double crosstraining bonuses 10(20 minutes ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=ecce74e7d930
22:17:42 <elliptic> 4000 to one skill and then 2000 to the other
22:17:45 <elliptic> and with 33%, you could put 3000 in each skill
22:18:12 <bh> bold commit. I've got no objection. The initial choice was arbitrary
22:18:21 <PleasingFungus> aight
22:18:24 -!- tsohg has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
22:18:25 <PleasingFungus> everyone is happy :)
22:18:28 <elliptic> but you are more likely to put 4000 in the first skill, then get a good weapon for the second skill and decide to switch
22:18:42 <PleasingFungus> the usual case, yes
22:19:01 <elliptic> so with 40%, this means you need to add 2400 more to the second skill to get it to 4000
22:20:02 <elliptic> so you have spent a bit more xp at that point, and your only benefit then compared with the old system is that the first skill is at 4960 instead of 4000
22:20:22 <PleasingFungus> hm. I am really not sure how to set up optipng. looks like I might have to recompile it from source, which is... more effort than I am honestly willing to put in
22:20:34 <Grunt> what
22:20:37 <PleasingFungus> what
22:20:40 <Grunt> Surely you compile crawl from source!!
22:20:49 <PleasingFungus> and that's quite enough of a pain, yes
22:21:08 <Grunt> (hint: crawl is trickier to compile than many other things, and even then not by much)
22:21:15 <PleasingFungus> I have no real interest in hunting down dependencies for other projects, especially ones which don't seem to have any guarantee of compiling on osx
22:21:20 <bh> we should ram the binary through upx :)
22:21:21 <PleasingFungus> glancing at their page
22:23:08 <reaverb> I don't think Crawl is difficult to compile? at least not on a mac, git submodule update --init and some command line options in INSTALL.txt seem to be enough.
22:23:15 <reaverb> Then again I don't compile anything else...
22:23:38 <PleasingFungus> crawl is a huge pain to compile on linux or on windows, but on osx it is not very bad
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22:23:48 <|amethyst> huh?
22:23:50 <PleasingFungus> since basically everything you need is bundled with the xcode developer tools, iirc
22:23:56 <|amethyst> what makes it hard to compile on Linux?
22:24:02 <PleasingFungus> grabbing all the dependencies...?
22:24:10 <Cryp71c> Its pretty terrible on windows...but its incredibly easy on linux.
22:24:11 <TS__> in the install file there's like
22:24:12 <PleasingFungus> I remember walking my brother through it and it was just an ordeal
22:24:13 <TS__> a line you can paste
22:24:19 <TS__> to install all the dependencies
22:24:22 <bh> building crawl on linux is dead simple
22:24:23 <Cryp71c> Yeah the trick is reading the INSTALL.TXT
22:24:30 <bh> I've only ever had problems on OSX because the toolchain is so awful
22:24:33 <TS__> it took me about 5 minutes to install it on linux man
22:24:37 <PleasingFungus> weird
22:24:40 <Cryp71c> For dependencies. Otherwise you'll be googling around trying to find out which dependencies are needed.
22:24:46 <PleasingFungus> I remember going to crawl-dev repeatedly for help during the procedure
22:25:10 <Cryp71c> If you're on a distro with no simple package management...then, maybe it'd be a pain.
22:25:16 <reaverb> Oh, yes I remember trying to get Xcode..ugh
22:25:38 -!- pentax has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
22:25:41 <|amethyst> Comparing a Linux distribution with no development tools installed to OS X with Xcode is a little unfair
22:25:43 <bh> Cryp71c: that's why we pick good distros :)
22:26:06 <bh> what does crawl need that it doesn't ship? ncurses and zlib?
22:26:19 <|amethyst> bh:  a compiler
22:26:21 <bh> ...
22:26:25 <PleasingFungus> this is turning into a weird os flamewar so I'm gonna stop
22:26:27 <PleasingFungus> hm
22:26:29 <Cryp71c> bh, two versions of libncurses, build-essential, zlib and maybe one or two others.
22:26:30 <|amethyst> and we ship with zlib
22:26:40 <bh> Cryp71c: *two* versions? What's wrong with us
22:26:44 <PleasingFungus> {{ if crawl.unavailable_god("Gozag") then _G.weight(0) end }}
22:26:48 <PleasingFungus> I'm told I should paste this somewhere
22:26:48 <|amethyst> two versions?
22:27:08 <bh> PleasingFungus: temple des, I bet
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22:27:26 <Bloax> compiling crawl on windows is so slow
22:27:32 <Cryp71c> |amethyst, I could be mistaken
22:27:44 <bh> compiling crawl is slow. It's rather large
22:27:47 <|amethyst> You need the dev package with the includes and libs
22:27:53 <PleasingFungus> bh: well, altar/overflow.des, actually
22:27:53 <Cryp71c> Bloax, <3 ccache
22:27:57 <PleasingFungus> but I was more wondering about the specific location
22:28:00 <PleasingFungus> or locations
22:28:17 <PleasingFungus> since I do not know lua and especially do not know how it interoperates with .des
22:29:48 <|amethyst> inside the headers for that map (somewhere NAME: and probably before MAP)
22:30:23 <|amethyst> though I'm not 100% sure just setting weight to 0 would be enough
22:30:35 -!- Svendre has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
22:31:41 <PleasingFungus> I... wonder if we could set crawl to veto any vault that has an altar to an unavailable god? I guess that would technically have weird interactions with jiyva... no reason we couldn't have a separate "disabled god" function that was called by the vault veto code
22:31:54 <PleasingFungus> (and also by disabled_god/temple_god)
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22:32:38 <PleasingFungus> that seems better than hacking in weight edits to every vault with a gozag altar, probably
22:34:05 <Patashu> alternative idea: replace altars to unavailable gods with altars to xom
22:34:09 <Patashu> xom will be pleased
22:34:58 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
22:36:13 <Grunt> Xom thinks this is hilarious!
22:36:35 <PleasingFungus> imho an altar to GOD_NO_GOD
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22:41:34 <Grunt> Only if we also get to inflict the terrible wrath of No God.
22:41:41 <PleasingFungus> always
22:41:52 <Patashu> what's the wrath of GOD_NO_GOD like
22:41:59 <PleasingFungus> terrible!!!!!
22:42:21 <Dixlet> You spend a moment contemplating the meaning of life.
22:42:33 <Patashu> 1learn add god_no_god wrath ABANDONMENT: 0 punishment  RETRIBUTION: 100% chance of doing nothing
22:42:36 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  well, it probably wouldn't be very frequently that you'd have a disabled god
22:42:41 <Patashu> oops *0 penance
22:42:44 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  since this is the first time ever :)
22:42:58 <PleasingFungus> still seems like a more elegant solution, and less likely to cause bugs in 0.15
22:43:10 <PleasingFungus> ...maybe
22:43:23 <|amethyst> hm
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22:44:04 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  hm
22:44:11 <|amethyst> better than the weight thing might be a veto block
22:44:24 <bh> hm. dunno if anyone cares, but I can get the crawl linux binary down to 3mb
22:44:29 <|amethyst> a level veto seems like overkill
22:44:30 -!- bmfx has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
22:44:36 <bh> (from 10mb)
22:44:51 <Patashu> bh: does it make performance worse?
22:44:53 <Grunt> bh: oh?
22:44:58 <PleasingFungus> ah, there's no way to veto individual vaults? i thought there was, for some reason
22:45:03 <PleasingFungus> yeah, I guess weight would be better
22:45:10 <bh> Patashu: I don't think we have a good way to benchmark that.
22:45:17 <bh> Grunt: 'upx --ultra-brute'
22:45:25 <PleasingFungus> ULTRA BRUTE
22:45:28 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  a veto block (see docs/develop/levels/advanced.txt) will do it
22:45:35 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  that vetoes just the vault, before placement
22:45:51 <bh> The only people I can imagine caring are: N apkin, cuz bandwidth, and people with awful internet connections
22:45:54 * Grunt squashes bh like an ant!!!
22:45:54 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  it's probably possible to do that C++ side too, but I'm not sure how
22:46:30 <Patashu> why does it need to be vetoed though? why not just turn it into an altar to xom. then it works even at save import time not just level generation time
22:47:04 <PleasingFungus> do we really want 0.15 to have a bunch of altars to xom placed in gozag-themed vaults?
22:47:09 <PleasingFungus> realy?
22:47:09 <|amethyst> Patashu:  because a Xom vault with four golden statues would be weird
22:47:17 <reaverb> (Could replace Gozag altars with golden statues <_< >_>)
22:47:22 <bh> Patashu: running the stress tests, I'll let you know how it does
22:47:23 <|amethyst> or one with "Gozag's Nutrition Petition"
22:47:35 <Patashu> well imagine it this way
22:47:42 <Patashu> let's say there's this big fucking office skyscraper that you go to
22:47:52 <Patashu> you're here to meet the CEO and you go all the way up to the 27th floor
22:47:59 <Patashu> the office chair is turned away so you can't see anything
22:48:01 <Patashu> then slowly...
22:48:06 <Patashu> it rotates around, and Xom is tapping his hands together
22:48:12 <bh> !abyss Patashu
22:48:12 <Sequell> bh casts a spell. Patashu is devoured by a tear in reality!
22:48:12 <Patashu> 'Gozag isn't in today. Can I take a message?'
22:48:17 <Patashu> that's my story
22:48:19 <|amethyst> Who's Gozag?
22:48:23 <Patashu> who indeed
22:49:38 <PleasingFungus> that is funny if you know the joke
22:49:46 <PleasingFungus> but 0.15 people, very specifically, will not know the joke
22:50:07 <Patashu> yeah that's true
22:50:17 <|amethyst> I was once in a (quite epic) D&D game where Loki was a CEO
22:50:21 <Patashu> fair enough then
22:50:25 <Patashu> |amethyst: wanna play dat game
22:50:40 <|amethyst> Ronald McDonald was a god of gluttony
22:50:48 <Patashu> btw, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyV_UG60dD4 can this be gozag's theme song
22:51:40 <|amethyst> Gozag's theme song alternates 7/4 and 4/4  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpbbuaIA3Ds
22:52:08 <Patashu> money~
22:52:09 <Patashu> yep
22:52:13 <Patashu> that one works too
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22:53:39 <bh> Patashu: https://gist.github.com/anonymous/73babc579a5719858261
22:55:23 <Patashu> what's upx --ultra-brute crawl
22:55:28 <|amethyst> bh:  how does it interact with debugging?
22:55:40 <bh> |amethyst: very badly, I presume
22:55:42 <Grunt> Patashu: bh is saying that Crawl is nasty, brutish, and short
22:55:48 <|amethyst> or at least the built in stacktrace
22:55:54 <bh> Patashu: it's a utility for compressing binaries
22:56:04 <bh> |amethyst: what's the best way to crash crawl?
22:56:17 <|amethyst> bh:  &^C
22:56:40 <|amethyst> or killall -ABRT crawl
22:57:40 <bh> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/c0d6bcd964cf0631285e
22:57:46 <|amethyst> (assuming you're not on a system with the SysV 'killall' :)
22:58:08 <|amethyst> that looks fairly reasonable
22:59:28 <bh> if there's any value in smaller, sure, let's do it
23:00:12 <|amethyst> well, it's up to N*pk*n, since it's his CPU/bandwidth tradeoff :)
23:00:52 <PleasingFungus> imho this would be a good thing to ping him about :)
23:00:58 <|amethyst> I don't think I'd want to make it default for someone just typing 'make'
23:01:31 <Dixlet> make -reallytiny
23:01:32 <bh> |amethyst: there isn't much of a tradeoff. You build it once :)
23:01:48 <|amethyst> once a day
23:01:50 <bh> this thing rams my 'roguelike' down to 44k, which is pretty cool
23:01:56 <|amethyst> how long does it take?
23:02:20 <bh> for crawl? a while. My machine is slow. My game, a few seconds
23:03:15 <|amethyst> how big was your crawl binary before packing?
23:03:26 <Cheibriados> Wielded weapon/quiver sometimes blank on HUD 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=8848 by wolfechu
23:03:53 <|amethyst> hm
23:04:05 <|amethyst> do we distribute ELF binaries currently?
23:04:06 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: 8848 is probably related to 2de37e3
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23:05:01 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: someone in ##crawl was also saying that "the equipped weapon is blue if it's not in the a or b slots"
23:05:14 <bh> |amethyst: 9.7m
23:05:15 <PleasingFungus> ProzacElf
23:05:20 <PleasingFungus> oops that's a ping
23:05:22 <bh> 9.7m -> 3.0m
23:05:36 <|amethyst> hm
23:06:00 <ProzacElf> eh?
23:06:01 <ProzacElf> oh
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23:06:08 <ProzacElf> that was me
23:06:09 <Bloax> bh: --ultra-brute is a waste of time
23:06:21 <Bloax> --best --all-filters is more practical
23:06:33 <ProzacElf> i didn't feel like posting it to mantis
23:06:41 <Bloax> --best --lzma --all-filters if you don't mind using lzma
23:06:46 <bh> Bloax: good to know. the upx manual is... non-existent?
23:06:56 <Bloax> pretty much
23:06:58 -!- kekekela has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
23:07:42 <Patashu> %git 2de37e3
23:07:42 <Cheibriados> 07|amethyst02 * 0.15-a0-2380-g2de37e3: Make colour-swapping work in webtiles (#8271) 10(27 hours ago, 3 files, 8+ 8-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=2de37e36d23f
23:07:49 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  hm, trying to figure out how this would cause problems if you haven't set colour options
23:08:09 <|amethyst> I guess if one of those things I passed to macro_colour isn't in the 0-15 range
23:08:23 <PleasingFungus> hm
23:09:07 <PleasingFungus> ProzacElf, it sounded like you had a modified rcfile, just not one you'd touched lately?
23:09:28 <ProzacElf> oh, yeah
23:09:41 <PleasingFungus> &rc ProzacElf
23:09:43 <Sequell> http://dobrazupa.org/rcfiles/crawl-git/ProzacElf.rc
23:09:47 <PleasingFungus> this one?
23:09:51 <ProzacElf> i'veyeah
23:10:02 <ProzacElf> should be
23:10:09 <PleasingFungus> rip  show_inventory_weights     = true
23:10:13 <|amethyst> no colour. options there
23:10:24 <PleasingFungus> yep. was worth checking
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23:13:48 <PleasingFungus> ah
23:13:52 <PleasingFungus> the color bug seems relatively consistent
23:13:58 <PleasingFungus> meleksa on s-z is also suffering from it
23:14:04 <|amethyst> I see
23:14:10 <|amethyst> I can't reproduce it locally
23:14:13 <|amethyst> let me try on cszo
23:16:04 <|amethyst> let me try with a default rc
23:16:50 <PleasingFungus> I'll poke at it too
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23:21:43 <bh> hrm. does {vamp} work for VS?
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23:21:55 <Sizzell> neil (L1 HuFi) ERROR in 'stairs.cc' at line 535: upstairs from top of a branch (D:1)
23:21:57 <PleasingFungus> yes, afaik
23:22:02 <bh> should it?
23:22:03 <Grunt> |amethyst: rip
23:22:14 <Patashu> !crash neil
23:22:15 <Sequell> 44. neil, XL1 MfFi, T:7 (milestone): http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/neil/crash-neil-20140601-151237.txt
23:22:34 <Patashu> this is a different crash lol
23:22:59 <|amethyst> that was me accidentally doing &u
23:23:05 <Sizzell> neil (L1 HuFi) ERROR in 'stairs.cc' at line 535: upstairs from top of a branch (D:1)
23:23:09 <PleasingFungus> nice
23:23:15 <Patashu> ah
23:23:58 <Grunt> |amethyst: rip x2
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23:32:28 <Cheibriados> 03|amethyst02 07* 0.15-a0-2390-ge652697: Assert when mapping a bad colour. 10(21 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 0-) 13http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commitdiff;h=e65269780554
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23:36:42 <PleasingFungus> |amethyst: "attempt to call field 'unavailable_god' (a nil value)"
23:36:56 <PleasingFungus> when adding the line
23:36:58 <PleasingFungus> : if crawl.unavailable_god("Gozag") then _G.weight(0) end
23:38:18 * Grunt investigates.
23:38:27 * PleasingFungus investigates Grunt.
23:38:33 * Grunt investigates Gozag.
23:38:37 -!- bonghitz has quit [Client Quit]
23:38:39 * Grunt places PleasingFungus under suspicion.
23:38:50 <PleasingFungus> !!!
23:39:29 <|amethyst> very strange
23:40:26 <PleasingFungus> reproducible?
23:40:27 <|amethyst> Just to verify,   grep unavailable l_crawl.cc   shows something ?
23:40:38 <|amethyst> let me try
23:40:58 <PleasingFungus> oh
23:40:59 <PleasingFungus> hm
23:41:01 <PleasingFungus> sorry
23:41:07 <Grunt> ha
23:41:10 <Grunt> !blame PleasingFungus
23:41:10 <Sequell> I pronounce PleasingFungus... Guilty!
23:41:11 <PleasingFungus> I may have forgotten to rebase
23:41:13 <PleasingFungus> :(
23:41:21 <Grunt> !sentence PleasingFungus
23:41:26 <PleasingFungus> ...
23:41:32 <Grunt> (fr: a rotating set of punishments for !sentence)
23:41:52 <PleasingFungus> implement your own frs!!!
23:42:31 <PleasingFungus> nvm
23:42:35 <PleasingFungus> rebased and still have the problem
23:42:49 <|amethyst> did you rebuild?
23:43:03 <Grunt> !rebase PleasingFungus
23:43:03 <Sequell> Grunt rebases PleasingFungus. PleasingFungus is banished to the reflog!
23:44:00 <|amethyst> you might also need to remove saves/des/altar_overflow.* ?
23:44:33 <PleasingFungus> wouldn't that cause me to *not* get this bug?
23:44:42 <PleasingFungus> (just wiped my des cache anyway; same bug!)
23:44:51 <PleasingFungus> hm
23:44:52 <PleasingFungus> hold on
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23:46:19 <PleasingFungus> ok, wiped des cache, rebased, rebuilt, now I'm getting new errors.
23:46:33 <PleasingFungus> but... not that one, I think.
23:46:59 <|amethyst> btw, this seems to come with optipng https://imageoptim.com/
23:47:08 <|amethyst> prebuild for OS X I mean
23:47:14 <|amethyst> s/uild/uilt/
23:47:38 <PleasingFungus> nice, grabbing it
23:48:03 <PleasingFungus> hm. it seems to just be a binary?
23:48:18 <PleasingFungus> maybe I'm misunderstanding
23:48:39 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus: you might need the command line to get to it
23:48:49 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  in ImageOptim.app/Contents/MacOS/optipng
23:49:07 <SamB> shame on him for not looking in there ;-Pp
23:49:12 <PleasingFungus> ah, no, I was just looking in the wrong folders
23:49:24 <SamB> find FTW
23:49:25 <PleasingFungus> I looked in frameworks & resources
23:49:26 <|amethyst> I always forget that OS X apps are directories
23:49:36 <PleasingFungus> huh. advpng too
23:49:46 <PleasingFungus> ...any particular reason I shouldn't just run this?
23:51:22 <PleasingFungus> also, trying to figure out how to fix the 18-altar temples. if crawl.unavailable_god("Gozag"), then... how would I do a subst with that?
23:51:44 <|amethyst> _G.subst("....")  I believe
23:52:04 <PleasingFungus> sounds promising
23:52:04 <|amethyst> basically all the directives translate straightforwardly into that kind of Lua
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23:52:32 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  if it does better than just those two, then by all means
23:52:43 <|amethyst> PleasingFungus:  (ImageOptim that is)
23:52:45 <PleasingFungus> sure
23:52:50 <PleasingFungus> I'll test in a minute
23:52:50 <PleasingFungus> also
23:52:52 <|amethyst> order sometimes matters
23:53:00 <PleasingFungus> the lua doesn't run early enough
23:53:06 <PleasingFungus> validate_temple_map() seems to be run before it
23:53:15 <|amethyst> hrm
23:53:16 <PleasingFungus> wait, that makes no sense.
23:53:24 <PleasingFungus> actually I'm an idiot, one sec
23:54:22 <|amethyst> btw, definitely look over docs/develop/levels/advanced.txt if you haven't already, because there are some strange gotchas
23:54:29 <|amethyst> e.g. all map code runs twice
23:54:52 <|amethyst> once when compiling the map and once when building a level that contains the map
23:55:22 <|amethyst> (I suspect there is much in that file that is out-of-date though)
23:55:26 <PleasingFungus> ??lua
23:55:26 <Sequell> lua[1/1]: http://www.lua.org/manual/5.1/manual.html
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