00:00:00 <Eksell> Unstable branch on CRAWL.XTAHUA.COM updated to: 0.19-a0-465-g1d1674b (34)
00:00:04 -!- omarax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:00:27 <Naruni> chequers, ok so here is my github for crawl, when i made a branch for trying to fix sniper: https://github.com/Naruni-Crawl/crawl/tree/fix_sniper
00:00:43 <Naruni> i'm 75 commits behind master
00:01:36 <chequers> if none of those 75 commits touch the same code, they're irrelevant. This is how you find out, using github's UI
00:01:40 <Naruni> how do i make that branch come up to date with the current master?
00:02:03 <chequers> you would click new pull request and change the dropdowns to be like this: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/compare/master...Naruni-Crawl:fix_sniper?expand=1
00:02:32 <chequers> so you can see any changes you had in fix_sniper have been included into the main project now
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00:02:53 <Naruni> does new pull request go to the crawl:crawl, or is that internal to my github?
00:03:14 <Naruni> i don't want to mess with the crawl stuff
00:03:18 <chequers> either, although you would only want to create the first sort
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00:03:41 <chequers> a pull request is basically a ticket saying 'hey, please merge the changes from my branch x into your branch y'
00:03:46 <Naruni> crawl:master is up to date with all commits from Naruni-Crawl:fix_sniper. Try switching the base for your comparison.
00:03:54 <Naruni> chequers, yes i do not want to do that
00:04:08 <Naruni> not until ive finished the work
00:04:12 <chequers> right
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00:04:34 <Naruni> so my fix_sniper branch is 75 commits behind master, but it says there is nothing to compare?
00:04:51 <chequers> that page is showing changes in fix_sniper that are not in master
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00:05:08 <chequers> it doesn't care about the reverse
00:05:08 <Naruni> ahh
00:05:34 <chequers> here is an example from me: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/compare/master...alexjurkiewicz:linear-sanguine?expand=1
00:06:05 <chequers> you can see all the changes in my branch 'linear-sanguine' that are not in the crawl master branch
00:06:37 <Naruni> hm
00:07:19 <gammafunk> @??very ugly thing
00:07:19 <Gretell> green very ugly thing (09u) | Spd: 10 (move: 90%) | HD: 18 | HP: 86-120 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 2704(strong poison:66-117) | 10doors | Res: 06magic(40), 03poison++ | Vul: 11silver | Chunks: 06mutagenic | XP: 1440 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.
00:07:24 <gammafunk> @??hydra
00:07:24 <Gretell> hydra (09D) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 13 | HP: 60-83 | AC/EV: 0/5 | Dam: 18 per head | amphibious, cold-blooded, regen | Res: 06magic(60), 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 976 | Sz: Big | Int: animal.
00:07:31 <gammafunk> @??cyclops
00:07:32 <Gretell> cyclops (08C) | Spd: 7 | HD: 9 | HP: 40-58 | AC/EV: 5/3 | Dam: 35 | 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | XP: 530 | Sz: Giant | Int: human.
00:07:57 <Naruni> how do i make my branch come up to date with the latest commit from master?
00:08:12 <Naruni> or does it not work like that
00:08:24 <chequers> ok, I'll tell you, but remember you don't need to do this unless you want to pre-emptively fix a merge conflict
00:08:29 -!- JimmahDean has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
00:09:19 <chequers> the high level steps are: 1. update your local copy of both the master & your repo's commits 2. rebase your local branch on top of the master's main branch
00:09:52 <chequers> Do you know how git remotes work?
00:10:00 <Naruni> no
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00:10:17 <chequers> basically, a 'remote' is a remote repo that your local repo knows about / can talk to
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00:10:30 <chequers> you want two remotes: your personal repo and the crawl master repo
00:10:36 <Naruni> makes sense
00:10:39 <chequers> you pull latest updates from the master, and push your changes to your local
00:10:41 <chequers> https://help.github.com/articles/configuring-a-remote-for-a-fork/
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00:11:13 <chequers> so, you want to add the crawl/crawl repo with the name 'upstream'
00:11:30 <gammafunk> @??electric golem
00:11:30 <Gretell> electric golem (118) | Spd: 16 | HD: 15 | HP: 111-157 | AC/EV: 5/20 | Dam: 1511(elec:15-21), 1511(elec:15-21), 15, 15 | 11non-living, 10doors, see invisible, unbreathing | Res: 13magic(immune), 05fire, 02cold, 11elec+++, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | XP: 3288 | Sp: b.lightning (3d20) [06!sil], blink [06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: brainless.
00:11:35 <chequers> then your local repo will know what you mean when you talk about the 'upstream/master' branch
00:11:50 <gammafunk> @??golden dragon
00:11:50 <Gretell> golden dragon (08D) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 93-126 | AC/EV: 15/7 | Dam: 40, 2009(claw), 2007(trample) | see invisible, fly | Res: 06magic(180), 05fire, 02cold, 10elec, 03poison, 12drown | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 4176 | Sp: b.fire (3d27) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath], b.cold (3d27) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath], poisonous cloud (3d11) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath] | Sz: Giant | Int: animal.
00:12:01 <chequers> fun fact, there will be three branches called master: upstream/master, origin/master, and master -- does it make sense what they represent?
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00:13:07 <regret-index> chequers: well, cblink _does_ allow completely skipping chambers in the concept map
00:13:26 <chequers> oh? I assumed it was glass walls or something you couldn't blink though
00:13:45 <Naruni> no idea
00:13:52 <regret-index> I mean, in terms of spending only one turn in them :P
00:14:06 <chequers> ah, eg blink to exit portal?
00:14:23 <regret-index> yes
00:14:33 <chequers> Naruni: the prefix represents the repository. Each repository has a branch called 'master', and they aren't identical
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00:14:53 <chequers> regret-index: so, no tele or blink, just apply dimension anchor aka '-tele' status always when in the map
00:14:58 <regret-index> it might be a bit much anyway, though, compared to -tele
00:15:02 <chequers> still allows bend space and banishment
00:15:07 <regret-index> sure
00:15:08 <Naruni> git remote -v
00:15:08 <Naruni> origin	https://github.com/crawl/crawl.git (fetch)
00:15:08 <Naruni> origin	https://github.com/crawl/crawl.git (push)
00:15:08 <Naruni> upstream	https://github.com/crawl/crawl.git (fetch)
00:15:08 <Naruni> upstream	https://github.com/crawl/crawl.git (push)
00:15:32 <chequers> Naruni: ah. slightly wrong. origin is meant to point to your personal fork
00:15:54 <Naruni> upstream is the main crawl git, origin is referred to by the current git instance's repo?
00:16:14 <chequers> 'origin' is git's special name for 'the repository you cloned to create this one'
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00:16:29 <chequers> (well, that's accurate for now)
00:16:42 <Naruni> how do i change origin to my local repo?
00:16:42 <chequers> what's the url of your crawl repo fork?
00:16:59 <Naruni> ummmmm....
00:17:09 <chequers> um, have you made any local commits that you want to save? simplest way is to just delete the directory, clone from your own fork, and then re-add the upstream remote :)
00:17:19 <Naruni> ok lets do that
00:17:22 <chequers> otherwise you have to learn more about 'git remote' which is useless knowledge
00:18:13 <chequers> !source level_change
00:18:13 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/player.cc#l2861
00:18:34 -!- Dracunos has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
00:18:38 <chequers> ...not the right level
00:20:18 <Naruni> git remote -v
00:20:18 <Naruni> origin	https://github.com/Naruni-Crawl/crawl.git (fetch)
00:20:19 <Naruni> origin	https://github.com/Naruni-Crawl/crawl.git (push)
00:20:19 <Naruni> upstream	https://github.com/crawl/crawl.git (fetch)
00:20:19 <Naruni> upstream	https://github.com/crawl/crawl.git (push)
00:20:25 <chequers> you got it
00:20:34 <chequers> now, run 'git fetch --all'
00:21:03 <Naruni> ok, that gave a lot of stuff
00:21:23 <chequers> what `git fetch` does is ask all your remotes for their info, without changing your local files
00:21:33 <chequers> --all just means 'all remotes, not just origin'
00:21:46 <chequers> now run `git branch --all`
00:22:24 <Naruni> remotes/upstream/willitblend nice
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00:22:31 <chequers> !source load_level
00:22:31 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/files.cc#l1202
00:22:34 <Naruni> lots of things in red from that command
00:23:09 <chequers> i don't know what the colouring signifies, possibly 'no matching local branch' or something else unimportant :)
00:23:28 <chequers> so you just compeleted step 1 from before
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00:23:45 <chequers> step 2. rebase your local branch on top of the master's main branch
00:24:22 <Naruni> git rebase
00:24:22 <Naruni> Current branch master is up to date.
00:24:27 <chequers> what 'rebase' does is take all your local commits that are not in the target branch, pick them up, put the target branch down, and then put your local commits on top
00:24:48 <chequers> so right now your local branch looks like this: 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> A -> B
00:25:00 <chequers> where 1/2/3 are commits from the main repo, and A/B are your additions
00:25:17 <chequers> in the meantime more commits were added, so the history would look like 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> A -> B -> 4 -> 5
00:25:29 <chequers> rebase will change this history to be 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4 -> 5 -> A -> B
00:25:46 <chequers> so run `git rebase remotes/upstream/master`
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00:26:56 <chequers> !source player::increase_duration
00:26:57 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/player.cc#l7679
00:27:44 <Naruni> chequers, ok
00:27:49 <Naruni> that didnt seem to do much
00:27:56 <chequers> did that complete successfully, or did it give you some random spew
00:28:06 <Naruni> git rebase remotes/upstream/master
00:28:06 <Naruni> First, rewinding head to replay your work on top of it...
00:28:06 <Naruni> Fast-forwarded master to remotes/upstream/master.
00:28:19 <chequers> great! Now read `git log`
00:28:29 <chequers> you should see your local commits first, and then all the recent crawl master history
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00:28:37 <Naruni> first commit is 1d167
00:29:10 <Naruni> hmm ok so my local branch is up to date
00:29:22 <Naruni> err local repo
00:29:23 <chequers> ah yeah, we started with a new repo didn't we
00:29:29 <chequers> run 'git status'
00:29:30 <Naruni> yes brand
00:29:44 <Naruni> git status
00:29:44 <Naruni> On branch master
00:29:44 <Naruni> Your branch is ahead of 'origin/master' by 75 commits.
00:29:44 <Naruni> (use "git push" to publish your local commits)
00:29:44 <Naruni> nothing to commit, working directory clean
00:30:09 <Naruni> origin referring to my Naruni-Crawl git?
00:30:15 <chequers> right
00:30:27 <chequers> so it means you just rebased 75 commits from upstream that aren't in origin
00:30:33 <chequers> since they were made after you forked
00:30:52 <chequers> and only you can change origin, so until you push them, origin won't know about them
00:30:57 <Naruni> of which that repo there are no changes in Naruni-Crawl that affect where my local repo is, so... everything seems to be fine?
00:31:00 <chequers> if you run `git push` now, your github repo will get updated
00:31:09 <chequers> correct
00:31:24 <chequers> so that's how you rebase, now onto branching
00:32:49 <Naruni> hah ok
00:33:02 <Naruni> wait let me delete sniper_fix
00:33:07 <chequers> to create a branch, run `git branch my_branch_name`
00:33:16 <chequers> you can then see the new branch with `git branch`
00:33:33 <Naruni> how do i delete the branch off github
00:33:40 <chequers> the branch is created by splitting the git history at the commit you're currently sitting on, so make sure you're always in an up-to-date master when you do this
00:33:53 <chequers> https://github.com/alexjurkiewicz/crawl-ref/branches this page, but for your repo
00:33:58 <Naruni> chequers, yes that ive understood
00:34:25 <chequers> that will delete the branch in the origin repo, if there's a local branch you can delete it with `git branch -D branchname`
00:36:34 <chequers> regret-index: dang, dimension anchor is dispellable, so we need a new -tele status
00:37:19 <regret-index> or a level flag
00:37:36 <regret-index> -cTele was off by one letter
00:38:34 <chequers> yeah. true, a branch flag is probably better
00:39:56 <regret-index> (clearly also good for the sheerest of depths in multizig raiding)
00:41:16 <chequers> wow, BFLAG_DANGEROUS_END to signify 'the end is dangerous'... does nothing except (mostly) prevent shafting into the last level
00:45:01 <chequers> !source you_teleport
00:45:02 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/spl-transloc.cc#l372
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00:51:17 <chequers> regret-index: http://dpaste.com/0QYSVKF
00:51:27 <chequers> regret-index: seems to work as expected
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00:52:33 <chequers> bend space / pog still work
00:53:18 <gammafunk> what are cool things for monsters to transform from/into due to a mad science experiment
00:53:31 <gammafunk> on the to side I have just humans, elves, ugly things
00:53:37 <gammafunk> er that's the from side
00:53:49 <gammafunk> for the to side it's electric golems, mutant beasts, golden dragon
00:54:02 <chequers> abominations
00:54:06 <gammafunk> hrm, well
00:54:11 <gammafunk> that's more a necro thing but
00:54:15 <gammafunk> maybe tmons
00:54:27 <chequers> mbeasts?
00:54:39 <gammafunk> mutant beasts? yeah that's in the to list above
00:54:40 <chequers> i'm thinking cigotuvi's wizlab monsters
00:54:42 <gammafunk> many ugly thing shouldn't be in from list
00:55:08 <gammafunk> electric golem is due to the the flavor bit in their description
00:55:08 <chequers> clearly pick a 'from' creature that is the player's species
00:55:21 <chequers> toenail golem!!!
00:55:26 <gammafunk> yeah, that's possible but I don't do that in the others
00:55:28 <gammafunk> chequers: good
00:55:39 <chequers> the egolem lore is referring to nicola right?
00:55:41 -!- zero_one has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
00:55:46 <gammafunk> it doesn't name him, no
00:55:49 <chequers> ...maybe nicola should be a pakellas worshipper
00:55:51 <gammafunk> but it's an electric spire
00:55:55 <chequers> In his attempts to perfect his
00:55:55 <chequers> electric golem, he was involved in a terrible accident, and now phases in and
00:55:58 <chequers> out of reality.
00:56:01 <gammafunk> shooting a monster that's in mutagenic fog
00:56:06 <gammafunk> when the monster dies, it transforms
00:56:13 <gammafunk> that's the vault, basically
00:56:36 <chequers> egolem works then
00:56:36 <gammafunk> that and the spire is blocked off to stop shooting, and the mutagenic fog goes away
00:56:36 <chequers> hound -> raiju
00:56:47 <gammafunk> that's goood to, but I don't yet have a 1-1 map for any
00:56:55 <gammafunk> raiju is pretty good though
00:57:00 <chequers> neqo is sort of a mutated humanoid
00:57:01 <gammafunk> may apocolypse crab?
00:57:05 <chequers> maybe too 'demonic' tho
00:57:21 <chequers> oh nice, corrupt doesn't affect 'unnaturally hard' walls
00:57:28 <chequers> so you can't corrupt your way through the gauntlet
00:57:43 <gammafunk> the guantlet?
00:58:01 <regret-index> it's a single glove
00:58:15 <regret-index> maybe has five rainbow gems of power on it, who knows
00:58:33 <gammafunk> like chaos emeralds?
00:58:50 <chequers> better
00:58:50 <regret-index> no that's seven
00:59:40 <gammafunk> hrm, can I apply never_corpse to a vault
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01:00:23 <regret-index> thanks for the no_tloc stuff, chequers
01:00:49 <chequers> i'm not sure if it's how people would like to implement the code, but it works
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01:01:26 <chequers> btw, i don't think royal jelly is a 'good' reward any more, since it eats slowly and gives less than a ration of satiation
01:01:44 <koboldina> SLIME RUNE FIRST RUNE
01:01:55 <koboldina> whoops sorry wrong chat
01:02:00 <gammafunk> newb
01:02:02 <chequers> !lm koboldina rune
01:02:03 <Sequell> 391. [2016-06-01 06:02:52] koboldina the Black Belt (L24 DsAs of Hepliaklqana) found a slimy rune of Zot on turn 62077. (Slime:6)
01:02:06 <regret-index> strictly speaking, this is not very impressive with jiv-
01:02:08 <koboldina> I haven't picked it upyet
01:02:21 <gammafunk> xl24, faaaaaake
01:02:30 <chequers> !lm koboldina rune=0 rune x=avg(xl)
01:02:30 <Sequell> No milestones for koboldina (rune=0 rune).
01:02:34 <chequers> !lm koboldina rune=1 rune x=avg(xl)
01:02:35 <Sequell> No milestones for koboldina (rune=1 rune).
01:02:39 <regret-index> royal jellies clearly should be one-turn eats
01:02:40 <chequers> derp
01:03:02 <doy> why are royal jellies not one turn eats
01:03:04 <chequers> sure, and get rid of pizza/jerky while you're at it :)
01:03:18 <chequers> historical reasons AIUI
01:03:23 <gammafunk> we need to consolidate food types
01:03:26 <gammafunk> since we have pizza
01:03:47 <doy> remove royal jellies, honestly
01:03:48 <chequers> just add jelly as a pizza type
01:03:51 <regret-index> food types are important for food vault variety
01:03:55 <geekosaur> gammafunk, doesn't look like monster props can be used as tags, no, only KPROPs
01:04:00 <chequers> bees can guard jelly pizza slices
01:04:05 <doy> fruit/pizza/jerky is fine
01:04:06 <gammafunk> geekosaur: ah, thanks
01:04:15 <regret-index> (not that I'm ever really sure why those were done by specific vaults instead of just dumping food on the floor)
01:04:18 <gammafunk> geekosaur: this vault is basically your original idea for a frankenstein type vault
01:04:21 <gammafunk> just modified somewhat perhaps
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01:04:42 <Naruni> chequers, thanks
01:05:02 <gammafunk> I'll have to just put never_corpse in each monster in the choice set, there aren't that many anyhow
01:05:28 <gammafunk> ooh, jelly
01:05:30 <gammafunk> good from monster
01:06:01 <gammafunk> need a weaker bug that doesn't cling
01:06:08 <gammafunk> @??cockroach
01:06:08 <Gretell> unknown monster: "cockroach"
01:06:08 <ontoclasm> newt?
01:06:13 <gammafunk> bug!!!
01:06:13 <ontoclasm> er, bug
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01:06:15 <ontoclasm> ahem
01:06:18 <gammafunk> @??giant cockroach
01:06:18 <Gretell> giant cockroach (07s) | Spd: 12 | HD: 1 | HP: 4-6 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 2 | Vul: 09poison | XP: 2 | Sz: little | Int: animal.
01:06:24 <gammafunk> @??redback
01:06:24 <Gretell> redback (04s) | Spd: 15 | HD: 9 | HP: 22-31 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Dam: 1804(strong poison:33-58) | web sense | Res: 06magic(20) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 220 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal.
01:06:30 <gammafunk> doesn't show cling I guess
01:06:43 <gammafunk> at least I assume if it could cling, it could get out
01:07:26 <regret-index> I see I will need to follow grunt's alchemy symbols to balance this out
01:08:24 <gammafunk> if you like boring artsy stuff, sure
01:08:30 <gammafunk> I'm more into comicbooks and gameboy
01:08:55 <regret-index> I literally just finished reading scarlet spider volume 2
01:09:20 <regret-index> ...admittedly, it was 30% stupid.
01:10:51 <chequers> oh, did anyone see the thread on the forum about glowing status for monsters being innate
01:11:08 <chequers> and suggestions to make it either an explicit enchantment or remove it
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01:13:24 <koboldina> !lm koboldina rune
01:13:25 <Sequell> 392. [2016-06-03 05:02:19] koboldina the Warrior (L18 DrAr of Fedhas) found a slimy rune of Zot on turn 55782. (Slime:6)
01:13:26 <koboldina> there you go chequers
01:14:21 <PleasingFungus> !seen wheals
01:14:21 <Sequell> PleasingFungus: You have 2 messages. Use !messages to read them.
01:14:21 <Sequell> I last saw wheals at Fri Jun  3 03:30:57 2016 UTC (1h 43m 23s ago) quitting, saying 'Remote host closed the connection'.
01:15:19 <PleasingFungus> !tell wheals two reasons: (a) it'd be ugly ("you.skill_rdiv(sk, 1, true)") (b) skill_rdiv's scale param does something completely different from _skill_rdiv()'s
01:15:19 <Sequell> PleasingFungus: OK, I'll let wheals know.
01:17:19 <PleasingFungus> chequers: the point of royal jellies is that anyone can eat em
01:17:24 <PleasingFungus> well, anyone who can eat
01:17:52 <PleasingFungus> the other point is for vault theme and bad slime jokes
01:18:43 <chequers> PleasingFungus: that's @ doy, I think
01:18:50 <Gretell> Unstable branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.19-a0-465-g1d1674b (34)
01:18:52 <PleasingFungus> oh
01:18:54 <PleasingFungus> idk
01:18:54 <chequers> I understand their rationale, I just don't think they're 'good loot'
01:19:02 <regret-index> fr bring back restab royal jellies
01:19:03 <doy> oh, i guess that's true
01:19:09 <PleasingFungus> what's this in context of?
01:19:11 <chequers> I'm +1 food reform/reduction
01:19:12 <doy> regret-index: no
01:19:22 <PleasingFungus> zigs? or something else
01:19:27 <chequers> loot for gauntlet, but as loot for any treasure room more specifically
01:19:30 <chequers> including zigs
01:19:32 <PleasingFungus> ohh
01:19:37 <PleasingFungus> no idea re gauntlet
01:19:44 <PleasingFungus> in general zig loot seems almost irrelevant
01:19:45 <chequers> better to place the relevant ration
01:19:53 <chequers> or the relevant mini-ration
01:19:59 <PleasingFungus> we don't change the dungeon based on the player, chequers.
01:20:04 <PleasingFungus> this is a Violation of Crawl Physics!
01:20:09 <chequers> uhuhuh
01:20:14 <PleasingFungus> marvinpa would be just furious if he could hear you right now.
01:20:18 <doy> fr: remove all "acquire" items from vaults
01:20:22 <PleasingFungus> also if your text made noise or something. idk.
01:20:33 <|amethyst> my food reform would leave (1) rations (2) pizza (possibly with a different name)
01:20:41 <regret-index> I... did I leave any notes anywhere on royal jellies for gauntlet???
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01:20:58 <PleasingFungus> were they in your draft version?
01:21:00 <|amethyst> no more meaty vs veggie food
01:21:09 <regret-index> maybe in the 2012 drafts
01:21:20 <PleasingFungus> Arcane Marksman Shot The Food
01:21:53 <chequers> |amethyst: so chunks would be the only food that cares about herbi/carni?
01:21:58 <doy> i think meaty vs veggie is worth preserving, but maybe remove ~all meaty permafood?
01:22:01 <|amethyst> chequers: yes
01:22:05 <PleasingFungus> +1 to doy
01:22:19 <PleasingFungus> for now
01:22:19 <chequers> |amethyst: +1 to your idea
01:22:23 <regret-index> |amethyst: what are fruits, then
01:22:31 <|amethyst> pizza
01:22:34 <chequers> regret-index: a consumable for a removed god :)
01:22:37 <PleasingFungus> i'm still fond of pizza and jellies for thematic reasons, and i don't think they're a huge burden on gameplay
01:22:39 <regret-index> fedhas the pizza god
01:22:40 <PleasingFungus> chequers: wow, you're vicious!
01:22:41 <doy> fedhas, the god of pizza
01:22:52 <doy> yeah, == PleasingFungus
01:22:54 <PleasingFungus> pizza tornado is coming after all...
01:22:56 <chequers> one day, when every dev is gone but mpa
01:23:01 <chequers> I will submit a 'remove crawl' PR
01:23:09 <PleasingFungus> has mpa ever merged a pr?
01:23:15 <gammafunk> yes.
01:23:15 <regret-index> I'm reminded of how crawl lite has fruits without hunger just for fedhas
01:23:17 <PleasingFungus> huh
01:23:19 <PleasingFungus> haha
01:23:20 <doy> so maybe cutting jerky would be a good first step
01:23:31 <PleasingFungus> Cut The Jerky, Pal
01:23:36 <regret-index> and hive without food just has potions
01:23:40 <chequers> and royal jelly
01:23:45 <chequers> potions of porridge!
01:23:52 <PleasingFungus> chequers: ?
01:23:54 <PleasingFungus> is anyone excited about the innate glow status on monsters, btw?
01:23:55 <regret-index> my poor dog jerky
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01:24:10 <gammafunk> you made jerky from your dog?
01:24:11 <regret-index> ...not jerky made of dogs.
01:24:14 <doy> innate glow?
01:24:19 <regret-index> !vault hangedman_caniform_friends
01:24:20 <Sequell> Can't find hangedman_caniform_friends.
01:24:25 <PleasingFungus> M_GLOWS
01:24:33 <regret-index> !vault hangedman_lair_caniform_friends
01:24:34 <Sequell> Can't find hangedman_lair_caniform_friends.
01:24:35 <doy> what does that even do
01:24:39 <|amethyst> doy:  fire elementals, ugly things, etc count as always-corona'd, essentially
01:24:47 <doy> huh
01:24:53 <doy> i mean
01:24:57 <doy> flavor consistency, i guess?
01:25:07 <regret-index> who ever heard of invisible fire
01:25:49 <PleasingFungus> hrm
01:25:51 <|amethyst> bigger concern might be corona-ing fire elementals
01:25:53 <PleasingFungus> i'm not sure it's even a full corona
01:25:57 <|amethyst> flavourwise
01:26:04 <PleasingFungus> that doesn't seem like a big concern to me
01:26:32 <doy> i mean, could just make it equivalent to perma-corona
01:26:55 <PleasingFungus> i
01:26:56 <regret-index> terrifying glowing rats from hell
01:26:57 <PleasingFungus> *think*
01:26:59 <chequers> my suggestion was either a) mark the monsters with the corona tiles icon, or b) (preferred) remove M_GLOWS
01:27:28 <Cheibriados> fire elemental (05E) | Spd: 13 | HD: 6 | HP: 28-39 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 004(pure fire:9-14) | 11non-living, unbreathing | Res: 13magic(immune), 04fire+++, 10elec, 09poison+++, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm, 04napalm | Vul: 12cold | XP: 196 | Sz: Big | Int: brainless.

01:27:28 <doy> %??fire elemental
01:27:28 <PleasingFungus> that M_GLOWS has the following effects: (1) prevents being turned invisible or being coronaed, (2) reduces "monster stealth" by 3 points
01:27:39 <PleasingFungus> ...and that's it
01:27:48 <PleasingFungus> as far as i can tell, there's no accuracy effect
01:27:53 <|amethyst> yeah
01:27:53 <chequers> apparently yellow contam also gives an accuracy bonus?
01:27:54 <PleasingFungus> please correct me if i'm wrong
01:28:06 <PleasingFungus> chequers: to people attacking you?
01:28:33 <chequers> according to hardboiledgargoyle
01:28:35 <doy> i think replacing m_glows with perma-corona would be a lot more sensible
01:28:46 <PleasingFungus> brutal nerfs
01:28:49 <PleasingFungus> ev nerfs
01:28:55 <regret-index> perma-corona... angels.
01:29:03 <regret-index> for... when they meet profane servitors?
01:29:07 <PleasingFungus> i am very strongly inclined to just remove it
01:29:12 <chequers> ah, if you have contamination you are 'backlit'
01:29:17 <chequers> ditto for liquid flames
01:29:26 <doy> i mean, i think it would be silly to be able to cast corona on fire elementals
01:29:35 <doy> but i guess i don't feel terribly strongly
01:29:45 <chequers> s/corona/sure-strike/
01:29:47 <regret-index> you can't, anyway!
01:29:51 <regret-index> mr immune
01:29:57 <doy> ah, sure
01:30:14 <doy> yeah, in that case, i care even less
01:30:17 <|amethyst> chequers:  I was going to say "Bullseye"
01:30:26 <|amethyst> but I guess there's the unrand
01:30:45 <|amethyst> Summon Reticle
01:31:07 <|amethyst> but anti-invis
01:31:12 <chequers> or maybe, to keep this change small, just leave the name 'Corona' :)
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01:31:18 <gammafunk> @??jelly
01:31:18 <Gretell> jelly (04J) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 14-19 | AC/EV: 0/2 | Dam: 308(acid:7d3) | 04eats items, amphibious, see invisible, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(10), 03poison, 08acid+++, 08blind, 12drown | XP: 42 | Sz: small | Int: brainless.
01:31:27 <gammafunk> I had no idea those were amphibious
01:31:41 <regret-index> it's important for right right they were cut from that sewer
01:31:42 <doy> huh
01:31:43 <gammafunk> and hence good at breaking lua vaults
01:31:45 <doy> me either
01:31:45 <regret-index> @??acid blob
01:31:45 <Gretell> acid blob (11J) | Spd: 12 | HD: 18 | HP: 84-117 | AC/EV: 1/3 | Dam: 4208(acid:7d3) | 04eats items, see invisible, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(160), 03poison, 08acid+++, 08blind, 12drown | XP: 2421 | Sp: spit acid (3d7) [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: small | Int: brainless.
01:32:03 <regret-index> different J constitutions at work
01:32:17 <gammafunk> ooze have too little hp, the others..hrm
01:32:20 <gammafunk> @??slime creature
01:32:20 <Gretell> slime creature (03J) | Spd: 10 | HD: 11 | HP: 51-70 | AC/EV: 1/4 | Dam: 22 | amphibious, regen, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(40), 03poison, 12drown | XP: 264 | Sz: small | Int: brainless.
01:32:23 <gammafunk> dammit!
01:32:38 <doy> @??death ooze
01:32:39 <Gretell> death ooze (06J) | Spd: 12 | HD: 11 | HP: 43-58 | AC/EV: 2/4 | Dam: 3204(rot), 32 | 07undead, 04eats items, evil, see invisible, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(120), 02cold, 09poison+++, 08acid+++, 08blind, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 1094 | Sz: little | Int: brainless.
01:32:57 <gammafunk> it's a bit much hp-wise anyhow, although...
01:32:58 <gammafunk> @??elf
01:32:59 <Gretell> elf (04e) | Spd: 10 | HD: 8 | HP: 30-42 | AC/EV: 3/15 | Dam: 10 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(40) | XP: 349 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
01:33:05 <gammafunk> actually that's pretty close
01:33:12 <|amethyst> slime creature might need to be amphibious for technical reasons
01:33:24 <doy> what technical reasons
01:33:26 <gammafunk> those other jelly work better as an end result anyhow
01:33:36 <regret-index> slime creatures are clearly amphibious for their swamp appearances.
01:34:00 <|amethyst> doy:  titanic slime creature can wade through water anyway purely by virtue of size
01:34:06 <PleasingFungus> haha, orb of destruction had M_GLOWS
01:34:18 <PleasingFungus> i am almost certain that did nothing but print a line in their description
01:34:41 <|amethyst> doy:  I mean, you could prevent splitting while over deep water, so it's not insurmountable
01:35:14 <PleasingFungus> regret-index: why do bennu have M_NO_POLY_TO?
01:35:50 <gammafunk> @??wolf spider
01:35:50 <Gretell> wolf spider (00s) | Spd: 15 | HD: 11 | HP: 45-65 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 25, 1508(poison:22-44) | web sense | Res: 06magic(20) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 567 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal.
01:36:18 <gammafunk> @??warg
01:36:18 <Gretell> warg (00h) | Spd: 13 | HD: 5 | HP: 28-38 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 18 | see invisible | Res: 06magic(40), 03poison, 08blind | XP: 165 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.
01:36:33 <chequers> if you split a slime creature over water -- let its component pieces drown!!
01:36:48 <regret-index> pleasingfungus: something about resurrection versus polymorph
01:37:12 <PleasingFungus> huh
01:37:35 <regret-index> certainly don't want to risk anything there, anyway >_>
01:37:35 <|amethyst> what would happen if you killed dowan the bennu?
01:37:49 <chequers> ha ha ha I want to try this
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01:38:22 <|amethyst> (FR: polymorph of either dowan or duvessa turns them both into a pair of shedu)
01:38:36 <chequers> can you spawn a creature that is poymorphed
01:38:41 <Lightli> ??plan
01:38:41 <Sequell> plan[1/1]: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:planning:release_plans
01:38:44 <chequers> dowan poly:bennu
01:38:59 <regret-index> there's a wizmode command for force polymorph
01:39:18 <Lightli> chequers: duvessa poly:antaeus
01:39:34 <chequers> i can poly myself
01:39:35 <regret-index> ...evidently, something polymorphed into a bennu in such a fashion dies once and then reverts
01:39:48 <chequers> no fair, how did you do this!
01:40:09 <regret-index> x ~
01:40:39 <chequers> Dowan looks momentarily different.
01:40:39 <chequers> Trying harder
01:40:46 <chequers> good mpr
01:41:03 <|amethyst> gah, did I leave off the punctuation?
01:41:43 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-466-g499225e: Remove M_GLOWS (chequers) 10(3 minutes ago, 10 files, 46+ 74-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/499225e90256
01:41:48 <|amethyst> theoretically you could get the sequence
01:41:51 <chequers> you get the message that the bennu renews itself
01:41:55 <chequers> but it doesn't
01:42:05 <chequers> :)
01:42:06 <|amethyst> Dowan looks momentarily different.  Trying harder.  Polymorph killed monster?
01:42:08 <regret-index> a perfect reason to prevent it for happening :P
01:43:20 <chequers> PleasingFungus: AF_CHAOS stealth nerf
01:43:25 <PleasingFungus> lol
01:43:37 <ontoclasm> PleasingFungus: dangerous monster stealth buffs
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01:43:48 <PleasingFungus> mm
01:43:51 <PleasingFungus> sneaky monsters...
01:44:04 <chequers> what is monster stealth? non-functional?
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01:44:23 <|amethyst> not sure it matters for non-invisible monsters
01:44:36 <PleasingFungus> it has its own file!
01:45:41 <|amethyst> huh
01:45:48 <|amethyst> yeah
01:45:57 <|amethyst> that +3 to stealth was completely irrelevant
01:46:24 <|amethyst> because the creatures couldn't go invisible in the first place
01:46:39 <chequers> what did it do for invis? chance of the 'invis monster' tile appearing?
01:46:45 <|amethyst> yeah
01:47:40 <lordfrikk> isn't the minotaur supposed to be generated awake?
01:48:03 <chequers> lol
01:48:21 <lordfrikk> I thought I heard something like that but he was asleep in my last Lab when I opened the door
01:48:56 <|amethyst> there's one ending where the minotaur is generated asleep
01:49:05 <|amethyst> and the loot is all behind doors
01:49:30 <|amethyst> # Hidden exit, and trapped loot
01:49:34 <lordfrikk> well there were some closed doors with zombie minotaur but most of the loot was on stairs as usual
01:49:39 <|amethyst> neither of those two things is true
01:49:52 <|amethyst> ah
01:49:56 <|amethyst> that's right
01:50:03 <lordfrikk> behind one door was a wand, behind the other a book
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01:52:11 <regret-index> I will convert it to a lab minivault of closets
01:52:23 <regret-index> why do we have so many zombie closets though
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01:52:34 <lordfrikk> btw I saw some people setting a level to which they want to train skills, is this custom or some hidden option?
01:53:21 <PleasingFungus> i think it's a lua rcfile thing
01:54:05 <chequers> maybe the level designer had to get something off their chest
01:54:06 <lordfrikk> I see, thanks!
01:54:28 <chequers> you open the door. An EXTREMELY BEAUTIFUL minotaur steps out of the closet. Do you see dad? Do you see??
01:54:40 <|amethyst> regret-index:  fun fact
01:54:48 <|amethyst> regret-index:  that was originally a minotaur closet
01:55:14 <PleasingFungus> regret-index: taking advantage of inability to open doors?
01:55:16 <chequers> "In fact I'd play humans if I didn't actually feel like a demonspawn myself."
01:55:17 <regret-index> identifying with the other is one thing but I put my foot down on zombie minotaurs
01:55:29 <|amethyst> %git b2dc31e6
01:55:29 <Cheibriados> 07dpeg02 * 0.5-a0-4-gb2dc31e: Only one minotaur per labyrinth. 10(8 years ago, 1 file, 2+ 2-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b2dc31e6ced6
01:55:33 <Gretell> Windows builds of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.19-a0-465-g1d1674b
01:55:54 <regret-index> pleasingfungus: but almost always wandering monsters that can open doors free most of them anyway
01:56:02 <PleasingFungus> really?
01:56:04 <PleasingFungus> not in my experience
01:56:09 <chequers> forbid monsters opening unseen doors
01:56:17 <PleasingFungus> i haven't seen that in zombie lab or in ice cave
01:56:17 <regret-index> crypt is noisy!
01:56:19 <PleasingFungus> oh
01:56:22 <PleasingFungus> idk about crypt
01:56:24 <regret-index> or quiet. one of the two.
01:56:29 <PleasingFungus> !lm . crypt
01:56:30 <Sequell> 99. [2015-03-10 19:10:15] PleasingFungus the Convoker (L20 MuAs of Gozag) killed Mennas on turn 66236. (Crypt:2)
01:56:35 <PleasingFungus> been a while
01:56:43 <regret-index> poor crypt
01:56:45 <PleasingFungus> haha
01:56:50 <PleasingFungus> !lm * crypt recent
01:56:54 <PleasingFungus> !lm * slime recent
01:56:59 <Sequell> 37648. [2016-06-03 05:50:19] Gruesome the Hoplite (L25 GrFi of The Shining One) reached level 3 of the Crypt on turn 45604. (Crypt:3)
01:57:15 <Sequell> 40740. [2016-06-03 05:38:28] Remb the Warrior (L18 MiBe of Trog) reached level 6 of the Pits of Slime on turn 46490. (Slime:6)
01:58:44 <regret-index> (crawl already hits the notes of transformation and boundary transgression and cobbling one's self together and being altered by outside forces anyway)
01:59:06 <chequers> :)
01:59:14 <regret-index> !lg * crypt recent
01:59:15 <Sequell> 339. EriktheRed the Cutthroat (L25 KoAs of Hepliaklqana), annihilated by a phantasmal warrior on Crypt:3 (church_of_pain_bobbens) on 2016-06-03 03:14:12, with 471572 points after 68859 turns and 9:36:03.
01:59:17 <regret-index> !lg * slime recent
01:59:19 <Sequell> 1514. Remb the Warrior (L19 MiBe of Trog), demolished by an azure jelly (created by the Royal Jelly) on Slime:6 (slime_pit) on 2016-06-03 05:48:01, with 260174 points after 47368 turns and 5:37:40.
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01:59:57 <regret-index> !lm * elf recent
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02:00:13 <regret-index> is it just the placement that makes elf so much more exciting then crypt
02:00:13 <Sequell> 70229. [2016-06-03 05:59:43] Mnoleg the Demonic Aeon (L18 DsFi of Cheibriados) entered the Elven Halls on turn 29807. (Orc:2)
02:00:34 <regret-index> or maybe crypt's loot levels are too low
02:00:57 <chequers> i don't think people really consider crypt a 'place to get loot'
02:01:13 <chequers> whereas elf is considered 'a place to get jewelery and fix up your resists'
02:01:34 <regret-index> hrm.
02:02:23 <regret-index> there's no real standard of crypt ends to properly compare loot output beyond "much lower"
02:02:57 <regret-index> even if they did give out the same amount of loot, would people choose crypt over elf?
02:03:54 <chequers> people who want a source of TSO piety later wouldn't, I suppose
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02:05:29 <regret-index> !source crypt_loot_plus
02:05:30 <Sequell> Can't find crypt_loot_plus.
02:05:55 <regret-index> http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=blob;f=crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/crypt.des;#l66 probably could buff this up or something
02:06:39 <PleasingFungus> i don't think they need to fill the same role
02:06:48 <PleasingFungus> though tbh i'm not sure what role crypt fills
02:07:00 <PleasingFungus> it's the undead place that's not ossuary or tomb
02:07:32 <chequers> like I said, late game TSO switching safe piety zone :)
02:07:32 <PleasingFungus> it's not extended but there's not that much reason to go there in a 3-rune game
02:07:35 <PleasingFungus> funny branch
02:07:46 <PleasingFungus> please do not go into an existential funk over this assessment!!!
02:07:50 <regret-index> no wonder trying to put it into a roulette petered out
02:07:57 <regret-index> har
02:08:20 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-467-g6e97241: Minor weapon acq refactoring 10(31 seconds ago, 1 file, 24+ 14-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/6e972410aa8b
02:08:30 <PleasingFungus> probably didn't help, yeah :)
02:08:39 <chequers> elf or crypt as a roulette? +1
02:08:45 <PleasingFungus> chequers: it was crypt/forest
02:08:53 <PleasingFungus> forest never seemed to quite know what it was either
02:09:00 <PleasingFungus> it was Lair, But Easier And Later
02:09:25 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-466-g499225e (34)
02:09:32 <regret-index> I thought it was "horribly aggravating and later"
02:09:54 <chequers> well, +1 still to elf or crypt rotation
02:10:09 <chequers> because I do think crypt loot is cool, but nobody dives for it
02:10:18 <chequers> *clears crypt for it
02:10:28 <chequers> so give a bit more and make people who clear elf have to crypt instead :P
02:10:47 <doy> i clear crypt occasionally, but more for the ~easy xp
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02:11:07 <doy> (not a lot of xp, but it's also not super dangerous, so)
02:12:26 <PleasingFungus> doy: yeah, but i feel like i'd usually just rather win the game usually
02:12:35 <doy> yeah, sure
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02:13:04 <regret-index> not enough extended play
02:13:10 <regret-index> clearly hell-pan roulette will help
02:13:44 <chequers> i actually won a game rather than die in extended
02:13:48 <chequers> it was... a revelation
02:14:18 <chequers> "you mean I can just waltz in to zot and win rather than bash my brains out over all the dumb parts of extended?!"
02:14:35 <doy> i stopped playing extended outside of tournaments a while ago
02:14:44 <doy> turns out winning is fun
02:14:46 <doy> (:
02:15:21 <PleasingFungus> no, losing. losing is fun
02:15:25 <PleasingFungus> keep it straight
02:15:37 <regret-index> my projects are doomed
02:15:43 <doy> making other people lose is fun
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02:16:32 <doy> i'll probably start playing extended again once i finish up greatplayer/greaterplayer
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02:17:25 <chequers> regret-index: waiting for the master merge
02:17:27 <doy> maybe by then someone will have figured out what to do with pan
02:17:28 <doy> (:
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02:18:06 <PleasingFungus> doy: haven't you seen the great r-i plan?
02:18:14 <doy> r-i?
02:18:27 <PleasingFungus> regret-index, formerly known by another name
02:18:43 <PleasingFungus> https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:dungeon:hell-pan_roulette
02:18:52 <doy> oh, the roulette thing, yeah
02:18:57 <doy> (which other name?)
02:19:40 <gammafunk> dangit, who made commits and ruined my ccache!
02:19:48 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: You're Welcome
02:20:14 * doy adds a comment to enum.h
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02:20:29 <PleasingFungus> doy: adjust the whitespace!
02:21:41 <gammafunk> nooo
02:22:06 <gammafunk> heh, I just noticed the file
02:22:16 <gammafunk> "geom2d.o"
02:22:23 <PleasingFungus> ?
02:22:28 <gammafunk> In case there was confusion
02:22:28 <regret-index> chequers: I'm... not actually remotely close to done on the other gauntlet stuff, really >_>
02:22:41 <gammafunk> "Is that 3D or maybe 4D geometry?"
02:22:53 <lordfrikk> @??saint roka
02:22:53 <Gretell> Saint Roka (12o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 18 | HP: 173-235 | AC/EV: 13/7 | Dam: 35 | natural, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter, priest, evil | Res: 06magic(80) | Vul: 08holy | XP: 4970 | Sp: battlecry [11!AM], smiting (7-17) [11!AM] | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
02:23:05 <PleasingFungus> regret-index: get nicolae to contribute
02:23:11 <PleasingFungus> have you ever felt that gauntlet was lacking in... shops?
02:23:36 <gammafunk> fine if you want a lot of sky beast chunks
02:24:01 <gammafunk> "These loot piles...they're all sky beast chunks?"
02:24:08 <PleasingFungus> innovation!!!
02:24:27 <PleasingFungus> you know what? i'm for it.
02:24:33 <gammafunk> god, someone really did adjust enum.h
02:24:55 <PleasingFungus> wasn't me!
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02:25:53 <chequers> jre
02:25:58 <chequers> ??regret-index
02:25:58 <Sequell> regret-index ~ regretindex[1/1]: http://pastie.org/10862403
02:26:07 <doy> !blame PleasingFungus
02:26:07 <Sequell> I pronounce PleasingFungus... Guilty!
02:26:18 <chequers> what things on that list are must-do before merge
02:26:20 <regret-index> teleporter choice between the sky beast chunk shop and the ugly thing chunk shop
02:26:21 <chequers> for gauntlet
02:26:38 <PleasingFungus> chequers: you have your answer!
02:26:41 <chequers> gammafunk: you're welcome
02:26:41 <doy> maybe crypt should just be a portal vault
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02:26:49 <doy> like, the crypt ends are fun enough
02:27:00 <PleasingFungus> Ossuary 2
02:27:01 <gammafunk> chequers: we never should have let another australian touch the codebase after Linley...
02:27:35 <doy> i mean, we could just make ossuaries place later
02:27:41 <doy> and do the sort of thing we do with ice caves
02:27:44 <regret-index> chequers: look under new portals
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02:27:50 <gammafunk> doy: I'm not sure that would be a great change
02:27:54 <chequers> gammafunk: linley probably knows C++ better than me
02:28:04 <gammafunk> probably at this point, yeah!
02:28:08 <regret-index> there's... exceedingly little in common in terms of sets
02:28:08 <chequers> regret-index: ah so it's all pre-merge stuff
02:28:10 <gammafunk> he's been coding a long time now
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02:28:22 <gammafunk> doy: tomb is kind of weird in how you don't visit it when you'd do crypt
02:28:36 <doy> what's weird about that?
02:28:42 <gammafunk> well weird if you make crypt a portal
02:28:43 <regret-index> as opposed to lair branches
02:28:47 <doy> oh, yeah
02:28:49 <gammafunk> since you have to do tomb then and there
02:28:52 <gammafunk> or never
02:29:00 <doy> that's a reasonable point i guess
02:29:00 <PleasingFungus> oh
02:29:00 <PleasingFungus> i assumed the point was
02:29:07 <doy> could also just place tomb elsewhere, but
02:29:09 <PleasingFungus> moving the tomb entrance into vaults
02:29:11 <doy> shrug
02:29:14 <PleasingFungus> just replacing crypt entrances
02:29:15 <doy> yeah
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02:29:24 <PleasingFungus> i hadn't even considered making tomb a part of portal-crypt
02:29:34 <gammafunk> well, where does portal crypt go?
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02:29:40 <PleasingFungus> why would it go anywhere?
02:29:42 <PleasingFungus> it's a portal
02:29:55 <gammafunk> maybe, but
02:30:02 <regret-index> presumably places in vaults and depths, you mean
02:30:10 <gammafunk> crypt:3 is...well I suppose it's not too far from the difficulty of wizlabs
02:30:33 <regret-index> it'd... be an annoying amount of effort to salvage things.
02:30:35 <gammafunk> !lm * recentish br.end=crypt urune<3 x=avg(xl)
02:30:36 <Sequell> 7405 milestones for * (recentish br.end=crypt urune<3): avg(xl)=22.89
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02:30:40 <travis-ci> The build was fixed. (master - 499225e #5734 : Nicholas Feinberg): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/134942050
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02:30:47 <PleasingFungus> yeah i don't think this is anything that there's a particular rush or need to change
02:30:48 <gammafunk> !lm * recentish br.enter=wizlab urune<3 x=avg(xl)
02:30:50 <Sequell> 9552 milestones for * (recentish br.enter=wizlab urune<3): avg(xl)=19.85
02:30:58 <gammafunk> I guess people are entering crypt 3 a bit later
02:31:00 <doy> !lm * recentish br.end=elf urune<3 x=avg(xl)
02:31:02 <Sequell> 31506 milestones for * (recentish br.end=elf urune<3): avg(xl)=19.23
02:31:04 <PleasingFungus> just not totally unreasonable on the face of it
02:31:04 <gammafunk> I tend to do it before elf when I do it
02:31:10 <gammafunk> since it's less dangerous
02:31:13 <chequers> is crypt a good portal? like it just has a pile of generic loot but even a single level is extremely long
02:31:16 <doy> yeah, i feel like it's easier than elf
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02:31:18 <gammafunk> but they're ballpark the same time I suppose
02:31:20 <PleasingFungus> loot isn't generic
02:31:21 <doy> so not sure those xl numbers mean a lot
02:31:29 <PleasingFungus> at least if you mean the crypt:$ loot
02:31:35 <chequers> oh, what does it give
02:31:37 <PleasingFungus> *elf* has generic loot
02:31:42 <PleasingFungus> crypt places a lot of specific stuff
02:31:44 <doy> chequers: well, that's why i'm saying get rid of everything except the last level of crypt
02:31:48 <PleasingFungus> e.g. a vamp weapon under every plant
02:31:55 <gammafunk> the portal for crypt would surely be only one level
02:31:55 <regret-index> it places _two_ specific things
02:31:58 <gammafunk> it'd just be crypt:3
02:32:00 <chequers> doy: but even crypt:3 is a bigger map than any other portal
02:32:09 <gammafunk> that's not necessarily true
02:32:10 <PleasingFungus> !source crypt_loot_plus
02:32:10 <Sequell> Can't find crypt_loot_plus.
02:32:20 <PleasingFungus> !source dat/des/branches/crypt.des:66
02:32:20 <gammafunk> compare lehudib wizlab to some crypt maps
02:32:20 <Sequell> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/branches/crypt.des#l66
02:32:27 <PleasingFungus> chequers: ^
02:32:28 <gammafunk> evilmike's end is enourmous
02:33:01 <gammafunk> some of the encompass onese are definitely pretty big but they're not anythign where I'd go "that can't be a portal"
02:33:07 <gammafunk> tbh evilmikes really feels like a portal
02:33:16 <gammafunk> since it's so radically different than a normal crypt level
02:33:19 <chequers> indeed specific
02:33:21 <PleasingFungus> heh
02:33:30 <regret-index> and then there's just the liches behind grates
02:33:34 <gammafunk> same with mu's and grunt's really
02:33:38 <regret-index> bit of a range
02:33:49 <gammafunk> yeah the tiny lich closet
02:34:06 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/289 (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/289
02:34:06 <Cheibriados> 03chequers02 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/289 * 0.19-a0-466-g0666252: Remove the distinction between 'axe' and 'polearm' baileys. 10(2 hours ago, 1 file, 38+ 105-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/0666252959fb
02:34:09 <regret-index> it has four liches now!
02:34:09 <gammafunk> QUAD LICHES
02:34:11 <PleasingFungus> i'm personally more enthused by the 'turn the elf:$ vaults into untimed portal vaults' suggestion
02:34:24 <doy> "why not both"
02:34:32 <gammafunk> hrm, what does portalizing elf do for us?
02:34:36 <chequers> "you see here a one-way portal into the elven treasure room"?
02:34:42 <regret-index> prevent stairdancing
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02:34:48 <PleasingFungus> not stairdancing
02:34:51 <gammafunk> well, tbh I don't do super a lot of that on elf:3
02:34:52 <regret-index> well
02:34:58 <regret-index> generalized escape
02:34:58 <doy> i don't really stairdance elf either
02:35:02 <PleasingFungus> luring and killholing
02:35:04 <doy> yeah
02:35:05 <PleasingFungus> is the elf:3 concern
02:35:16 <gammafunk> sure, but how is your portall addressing this
02:35:20 <PleasingFungus> i mean
02:35:22 <gammafunk> I guess you're going to have a very different layout?
02:35:31 <chequers> would elf:3 be doable in its current form without those mechanisms
02:35:32 <PleasingFungus> you wouldn't be able to leave the vault
02:35:42 <PleasingFungus> unless you wanted to leave the loot
02:35:44 <gammafunk> oh, you just want the vault itself to be the level
02:35:45 <PleasingFungus> chequers: yeah i'd also probably want to make them contain fewer enemies
02:35:48 <doy> chequers: sure, it's not like impossible
02:35:52 <gammafunk> that does throw away a bunch of elf layout code
02:35:52 <regret-index> take literally all of the current elf:3 vaults and adapt them into tiny encompass vaults, sure, anybody will do that well
02:35:59 <gammafunk> geo_elf and the elf castle eetc
02:36:01 <gammafunk> *etc
02:36:03 <chequers> idm the idea I guess
02:36:06 <PleasingFungus> regret-index: i feel like you're using Sarcasm at me.
02:36:11 <regret-index> geo_elf still exists for elf:1-2
02:36:20 <gammafunk> yeah it does, but the castle!
02:36:27 <chequers> it's not like elf branch is interesting beyond hall of blades and the end vault
02:36:31 <PleasingFungus> doesn't crawl have enough castles...
02:36:42 <PleasingFungus> i feel like elf is okay
02:36:45 <doy> so i mean, alternately
02:36:50 <gammafunk> actually I fine elf layouts ok, my big gripe is how geo_elf is not a great layout for the monsters in it
02:36:52 <regret-index> just wait until somebody submits a nethack castle temple
02:36:53 <PleasingFungus> it's not the best branch in the world but it's fine, you know?
02:36:57 <gammafunk> so many single-tile corridors
02:36:58 <doy> the thing that's boring about crypt and elf is the lack of monster diversity
02:37:05 <gammafunk> but I don't find the branch too boring to go through, I guess
02:37:05 <PleasingFungus> !lm doy elf
02:37:06 <Sequell> 229. [2016-05-31 08:20:28] doy the Grand Gadgeteer (L23 FoAr of Pakellas) killed Asterion on turn 60778. (Elf:3)
02:37:09 <PleasingFungus> heh
02:37:18 <regret-index> crypt... has plenty of monster diversity aside from the undead modifier.
02:37:35 <doy> i don't consider different kinds of zombies to be "diversity", really
02:37:39 <PleasingFungus> i don't think that elf as a whole is Problematic
02:37:39 <gammafunk> yeah crypt does have a number of different types of monsters; some of them feel rather samey
02:37:40 <doy> although crypt has been getting better lately
02:37:40 <PleasingFungus> doy: man
02:37:44 <PleasingFungus> like
02:37:46 <PleasingFungus> three years ago
02:37:50 <regret-index> lately???
02:37:54 <PleasingFungus> it hasn't been The Zombie Branch for a long time
02:37:56 <chequers> eidolons, ancient champions, the other ones
02:38:00 <doy> heh
02:38:02 <doy> i mean
02:38:05 <gammafunk> The Other Ones
02:38:10 <doy> my history with crawl does go back a ways
02:38:11 <gammafunk> the spookiest monsters of all
02:38:13 <doy> but
02:38:13 <PleasingFungus> jiangshi
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02:38:17 <PleasingFungus> flayed ghosts
02:38:19 <PleasingFungus> revenants
02:38:32 <regret-index> curse skulls
02:38:35 <gammafunk> yeah there's pretty decent diversity now
02:38:36 <PleasingFungus> vamp knights (more common than in depths)
02:38:42 <gammafunk> lotta summons still, but crypt gonna crypt
02:38:50 <PleasingFungus> haha
02:38:57 <doy> maybe it's just that by the time i do crypt, most of that stuff feels like popcorn
02:38:57 <PleasingFungus> remember when wheals put ghost crabs in there
02:39:18 <zxc> with crypt there isn't much reward and with elf the enemies are very homogeneous
02:39:18 <PleasingFungus> i thought you were talking about doing crypt in 3-rune games?
02:39:27 <regret-index> THE SOLUTION IS ELFCRYPT
02:39:42 <PleasingFungus> baelnorns???
02:39:43 <doy> yeah, even in three rune games
02:39:47 <zxc> elf vault in crypt and crypt enemies in elf
02:39:49 <amalloy> elf is less homogenous now
02:40:04 <zxc> Elven Crypts?
02:40:30 <zxc> yeah move crypt entrance into elf:3 :)
02:40:36 <chequers> elf enemies are quite unique comapred to other branches, I guess
02:40:58 <PleasingFungus> anyway, even though r-i was Mean To Me, i still think the portal elf end could be worth trying. So There.
02:41:02 <regret-index> I still need to do that inquisitor / magi shift
02:41:26 <regret-index> pleasingfungus: I'm being mean because if it does get agreed upon enough then I am going to be the one to do it properly and you know it
02:41:55 <PleasingFungus> not once grunt returns in glory
02:41:56 <regret-index> alternatively I will repair people having done it miserably a year later
02:41:59 <chequers> dont make work for r-i til gauntlet is merged!
02:42:04 <PleasingFungus> haha
02:43:06 <regret-index> hey chequers I'm going to hold back gauntlet until I can use blood saints in it want to do that legendary destruction double-explosion thing I noted down
02:43:07 <PleasingFungus> you keep taking responsibility for All Of Crawl onto your long-suffering shoulders
02:43:19 <regret-index> it's not all of crawl!
02:43:30 <PleasingFungus> every level and vault
02:43:43 <chequers> * up blood saint casting chance, change legendary destruction to a double-cast of
02:43:43 <regret-index> I don't trust myself enough to give a fuck about 90% of players
02:43:46 <chequers> randomly fireball w:30 / iceblast w:15 / ghostly fireball / orb of elec
02:43:48 <chequers> this thing?
02:43:52 <regret-index> yes
02:44:01 <chequers> ok, i'll code it
02:44:07 <PleasingFungus> i'll form the head
02:44:17 <chequers> you're not invited
02:44:29 <PleasingFungus> i didn't want to be part of your PR party anyway!!!
02:44:58 <chequers> regret-index: two casts of the same spell, or two casts of potentially two different spells
02:45:02 <regret-index> latter
02:45:05 <PleasingFungus> regret-index: anyway you don't get to complain at the *prospect* of someone else adding vaults that you would have done differently
02:45:05 <chequers> nice
02:45:14 <PleasingFungus> that is Silliness
02:45:27 <regret-index> it's not adding, it's editing
02:45:32 <PleasingFungus> when i kill dpeg and become crawl dictator, i will make it illegal.
02:45:53 <chequers> are there any spells that run twice currently I can copy
02:46:00 <regret-index> serpent of hell breath runs thrice
02:46:13 <PleasingFungus> and causes crashes about once every two months
02:46:19 <PleasingFungus> that's mostly in description code, though.
02:46:32 <PleasingFungus> and has more to do with its checking monster type to figure out what it does.
02:46:36 <chequers> man that's a big case statement
02:46:41 <chequers> !source mons_cast
02:46:42 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/mon-cast.cc#l4866
02:46:56 <PleasingFungus> yep!!!
02:47:10 <PleasingFungus> get this: there are several huge switch/cases in that file
02:47:14 <regret-index> pleasingfungus, give me a week and I will literally have edited more vaults than everybody else has put together.
02:47:28 <chequers> crying noises
02:47:46 <PleasingFungus> regret-index: cool!
02:48:00 <PleasingFungus> please continue to do things you enjoy
02:48:01 <regret-index> then nobody else can be trusted to do it
02:48:22 <PleasingFungus> oh my god
02:48:24 <PleasingFungus> good night, all.
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02:48:58 <regret-index> probably should have let up at some point
02:49:19 <chequers> i'm all about conflict
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02:51:00 <chequers> i think this blood saint change is trivial
02:51:07 <chequers> nvm, compile error
02:52:27 <chequers> 28202 segmentation fault  ./crawl
02:53:29 <Gretell> Monster database of master branch on crawl.develz.org updated to: 0.19-a0-467-g6e97241
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03:00:19 <chequers> oh right, infinite loop
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03:06:08 <chequers> regret-index: why the weightings for blood saint as per your suggestion? eg why ice blast half that of fireball
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03:09:24 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-467-g6e97241 (34)
03:09:30 <chequers> regret-index: here you go, http://dpaste.com/3TXM19C the weightings aren't as you requested, but that's an easy tweak
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03:12:40 <travis-ci> The build was fixed. (master - 6e97241 #5735 : Nicholas Feinberg): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/134945427
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03:17:43 <ontoclasm> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1000017/crawl/wyvern.png
03:17:46 <ontoclasm> how's that
03:18:17 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.19-a0-468-g8f2da2a: Add a new Pakellas experiment overflow altar and refactor lua 10(2 weeks ago, 1 file, 271+ 155-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/8f2da2ac7b8c
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03:23:18 <Rotatell> Unstable branch on crawl.beRotato.org updated to: 0.19-a0-467-g6e97241 (34)
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03:32:20 <gammafunk> ontoclasm: that gives me 404
03:33:08 <ontoclasm> oops
03:33:09 <ontoclasm> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1000017/crawl/wyvern.png
03:33:12 <ontoclasm> try again
03:33:37 <gammafunk> looks pretty nice
03:33:53 <olscumpy> bring back secret doors
03:34:06 <olscumpy> but only one - for a dith overflow vault!
03:34:07 <gammafunk> maybe a bit like a dragon rat somehow due to the head
03:34:08 <gammafunk> but I like it
03:34:26 <ontoclasm> hm
03:35:22 <gammafunk> that's probably just my weird perception
03:36:04 <gammafunk> maybe a bit because I'm not seeing it in-game, but nudged against the far-left side of my display
03:36:34 <ontoclasm> hm
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03:43:24 <chequers> ontoclasm: good tile
03:44:33 <chequers> elder mutant beast <-- surely should be primal gammafunk
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03:45:43 <ontoclasm> i feel like it's a little similar to drakes, but uh
03:46:01 <chequers> colour, right
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03:46:14 <ontoclasm> there's only so many ways to draw a dragon thing
03:46:21 <ontoclasm> and yeah, it's a different color at least
03:47:37 <gammafunk> isn't there a pokemon dragon we can rip off
03:48:10 <ontoclasm> http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Flygon_%28Pok%C3%A9mon%29
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03:48:35 <gammafunk> perfect!
03:48:35 <ontoclasm> i was informed it looked like this thing
03:49:01 <gammafunk> I would gladly kill and eat that thing
03:49:47 <ontoclasm> mm, tasty
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03:53:54 <JStrange> does weapon skill increase accuracy or only speed?
03:54:00 <olscumpy> unadon
03:55:19 <gammafunk> ??weapon_skill
03:55:20 <Sequell> weapon skill[1/2]: Affects {attack delay}, weapon accuracy, and {weapon damage}. It is rarely worth it to train weapon skill beyond what is needed to maximize your attack speed.
03:55:30 <gammafunk> ??weapon_skill[2
03:55:31 <Sequell> cross training[1/2]: 40% of the exp (not levels!) in any weapon skill is used to boost the cross-trained skill for free. Short <-> Long Blades, Maces <-> Axes, Axes <-> Polearms, Polearms <-> Staves, Maces <-> Staves, Slings <-> Throwing
03:55:42 <gammafunk> yeah doesn't say how it affects accuracy and damage, but it does
03:56:22 <JStrange> that's good enough for me
03:56:24 <JStrange> thanks
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04:05:44 <ontoclasm> Y-BURN
04:06:40 <Cheibriados> 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.19-a0-469-g3cb1db7: Redo item-in-water mask tiles 10(2 days ago, 7 files, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3cb1db77fd65
04:06:40 <Cheibriados> 03ontoclasm02 07* 0.19-a0-470-ga918a2a: Wyvern tile 10(42 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a918a2a20957
04:09:23 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-468-g8f2da2a (34)
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04:25:16 <gammafunk> @??human
04:25:16 <Gretell> human (15p) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 28-39 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Dam: 10 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 196 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
04:25:19 <gammafunk> @??redback
04:25:19 <Gretell> redback (04s) | Spd: 15 | HD: 9 | HP: 22-31 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Dam: 1804(strong poison:33-58) | web sense | Res: 06magic(20) | Vul: 09poison | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 220 | Sz: tiny | Int: animal.
04:25:23 <gammafunk> @??orc
04:25:23 <Gretell> orc (04o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 1 | HP: 5-8 | AC/EV: 1/9 | Dam: 5 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | XP: 3 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
04:25:29 <gammafunk> @??elf
04:25:29 <Gretell> elf (04e) | Spd: 10 | HD: 8 | HP: 30-42 | AC/EV: 3/15 | Dam: 10 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(40) | XP: 349 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
04:25:38 <gammafunk> @??halfling
04:25:38 <Gretell> halfling (15p) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 9-12 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Dam: 6 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(10) | XP: 29 | Sz: small | Int: human.
04:25:47 <gammafunk> @??dwarf
04:25:48 <Gretell> dwarf (03g) | Spd: 10 | HD: 5 | HP: 22-33 | AC/EV: 2/12 | Dam: 10 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 129 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
04:27:04 <gammafunk> @??yak
04:27:04 <Gretell> yak (07Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 33-45 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Dam: 18 | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 204 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.
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04:29:19 <gammafunk> @??ghouls
04:29:19 <Gretell> unknown monster: "ghouls"
04:29:21 <gammafunk> @??ghoul
04:29:21 <Gretell> ghoul (05n) | Spd: 10 | HD: 14 | HP: 118-173 | AC/EV: 4/10 | Dam: 30, 30 | 07undead, 10doors, evil, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(80), 02cold, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 1547 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
04:29:32 <gammafunk> @??orc_warrior
04:29:33 <Gretell> orc warrior (08o) | Spd: 10 | HD: 4 | HP: 25-33 | AC/EV: 9/10 | Dam: 20 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, fighter | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 132 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
04:30:42 <gammafunk> @??merfolk
04:30:42 <Gretell> merfolk (04m) | Spd: 10 (swim: 60%) | HD: 10 | HP: 45-66 | AC/EV: 4/12 | Dam: 22 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, amphibious | Res: 06magic(40), 12drown | XP: 301 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
04:30:58 <gammafunk> @??felid
04:30:58 <Gretell> felid (06h) | Spd: 10 (move: 80%) | HD: 5 | HP: 15-20 | AC/EV: 2/18 | Dam: 10 | 10items, 10doors, see invisible | Res: 06magic(40) | XP: 105 | Sz: little | Int: human.
04:31:22 <gammafunk> @??troll
04:31:22 <Gretell> troll (07T) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 33-45 | AC/EV: 3/10 | Dam: 20, 1509(claw), 1509(claw) | 10doors, regen | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 304 | Sz: Large | Int: human.
04:31:34 <gammafunk> @??spriggan
04:31:34 <Gretell> spriggan (15i) | Spd: 10 (move: 60%) | HD: 7 | HP: 20-28 | AC/EV: 2/18 | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, see invisible | Res: 06magic(60) | XP: 218 | Sz: little | Int: human.
04:32:02 <gammafunk> @??naga
04:32:03 <Gretell> naga (03N) | Spd: 10 (move: 140%) | HD: 5 | HP: 23-33 | AC/EV: 6/10 | Dam: 17, 303(constrict) | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, see invisible | Res: 06magic(40), 03poison | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 161 | Sp: spit poison (d10) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath] | Sz: Large | Int: human.
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04:32:20 <gammafunk> @??ogre
04:32:20 <Gretell> ogre (07O) | Spd: 10 | HD: 5 | HP: 22-33 | AC/EV: 1/6 | Dam: 17 | 10items, 10doors | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 118 | Sz: Large | Int: human.
04:34:00 <gammafunk> @??draconian
04:34:00 <Gretell> draconian (07d) | Spd: 10 | HD: 8 | HP: 54-72 | AC/EV: 10/11 | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(10) | XP: 522 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
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04:59:12 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.19-a0-471-ga74cb86: Adjust the decorative monster sets in an overflow altar 10(5 minutes ago, 1 file, 4+ 5-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/a74cb8606ece
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05:09:27 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-471-ga74cb86 (34)
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05:59:33 <JStrange_> does staff of summoning still have abjuration on hit?
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06:00:06 <JStrange_> it's not in the description anymore but sequell says it has it
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06:15:38 <othias> hey, is anyone also having laggy mouse? https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10278 I just built the game on debian testing and I get this :(
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06:50:26 <MarvinPA> !tell pleasingfungus M_GLOWS has an exciting history! (it used to be M_GLOWS_LIGHT and M_GLOWS_RADIATION, each with its own extra set of tiny effects, like radiation-glowing monsters being able to make nearby ugly things change colour)
06:50:27 <Sequell> MarvinPA: OK, I'll let pleasingfungus know.
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11:22:02 <regret-index> @??eye of devastation
11:22:02 <Gretell> eye of devastation (08G) | Spd: 7 | HD: 10 | HP: 45-65 | AC/EV: 12/1 | see invisible, fly, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(100), 12drown | XP: 436 | Sp: b.energy (3d20) [06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: brainless.
11:22:08 <regret-index> @??eye of devastation hd:20
11:22:08 <Gretell> eye of devastation (08G) | Spd: 7 | HD: 20 | HP: 90-124 | AC/EV: 12/1 | see invisible, fly, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(100), 12drown | XP: 1476 | Sp: b.energy (3d20) [06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: brainless.
11:22:14 <regret-index> welp
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11:28:31 <regret-index> @??cacodemon
11:28:31 <Gretell> cacodemon (082) | Spd: 10 | HD: 13 | HP: 81-112 | AC/EV: 11/10 | Dam: 22, 22 | 05demonic, 10doors, unholy, see invisible, fly, regen | Res: 06magic(160), 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++, 11silver | XP: 1638 | Sp: b.energy (3d20) [06!sil], slow [06!sil], confuse [06!sil], malmutate [06!sil], dig [06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: human.
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11:33:54 <regret-index> I wonder if "There is a strange hissing noise." should have a more informative ", the teleporter must be jammed" or something
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11:46:46 <Cheibriados> Ukayaw Shrine 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10475 by jerkstore
11:48:13 <regret-index> ...hahahaha.
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11:54:59 <PleasingFungus> regret-index: bolt of energy is used by, like, two monsters, so it wouldn't be hard to tweak if you so desired
11:54:59 <Sequell> PleasingFungus: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
11:55:06 <MarvinPA> nice
11:55:22 <PleasingFungus> I think it's modelled on disintegrate, which also has fixed damage
11:55:27 <MarvinPA> (re that tile)
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11:56:38 <regret-index> just wondering about eyes of devastation being more glass cannony
11:57:11 <PleasingFungus> @??cacodemon
11:57:11 <Gretell> cacodemon (082) | Spd: 10 | HD: 13 | HP: 81-112 | AC/EV: 11/10 | Dam: 22, 22 | 05demonic, 10doors, unholy, see invisible, fly, regen | Res: 06magic(160), 10elec, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++, 11silver | XP: 1638 | Sp: b.energy (3d20) [06!sil], slow [06!sil], confuse [06!sil], malmutate [06!sil], dig [06!sil] | Sz: Large | Int: human.
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11:58:57 <regret-index> (clearly, they should have searing ray)
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11:59:18 <PleasingFungus> not sure about that one.
11:59:20 <PleasingFungus> :p
11:59:52 <PleasingFungus> ukayaw shrine opinion: the ddr thing is probably too silly for a release version, but it's certainly better than what we have now
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12:00:07 <MarvinPA> clearly energy bolt should dispel effects again
12:00:31 <PleasingFungus> ...did it...?
12:00:37 <regret-index> I don't think it's a great idea to have it in because when it does get replaced people will complain :P
12:00:41 <regret-index> it was a bug
12:00:48 <MarvinPA> for years! due to beam name checks
12:01:05 <PleasingFungus> oooh
12:01:06 <MarvinPA> long may they live
12:01:07 <PleasingFungus> our own touch of death
12:01:18 <regret-index> sadly, not half as lethal
12:01:29 <PleasingFungus> beam name checks are almost gone... i think the majority of them are in tiles code
12:01:31 <PleasingFungus> sad!
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12:03:27 <MarvinPA> lamp of fire has one, that's relatively new i guess
12:03:49 <MarvinPA> but yeah most of the others actually check the spell itself now it looks like
12:06:41 <ebering> u can line pass in tree form
12:06:44 <Lasty_> PleasingFungus: yeah, probably better to put in that shrine tile while we're waiting for an "official" one. The question mark tile isn't ideal
12:06:45 <ebering> intentional or no?
12:06:51 <Lasty_> ebering: that should be blocked.
12:07:06 <Lasty_> !learn add lasty_to_do[1 Block line-pass while stationary
12:07:07 <Sequell> lasty to do[1/11]: Block line-pass while stationary
12:08:19 <MarvinPA> i mean if it's really too silly then surely it's better to just wait, otherwise it seems likely to become the real tile
12:08:25 <MarvinPA> but i don't have opinions on tiles
12:08:35 <regret-index> I vote for too silly >_>
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12:10:12 <PleasingFungus> could ask the tile creator if he/she's make a variant that's not quite as overt a reference
12:10:29 <PleasingFungus> replace the arrows with, hm, candles or braziers
12:10:43 <PleasingFungus> illuminating and dimming in mysterious patterns!
12:11:30 <regret-index> candle dances... malaysian, mm
12:12:12 <PleasingFungus> is that an actual thing that i'm not just making up?
12:13:17 <regret-index> candle dances are more of dancing round _with_ candles, of course
12:19:57 <Lasty_> It's far too silly to be the real tile
12:20:06 <Lasty_> but I'd really like to have some kind of tile for the altar
12:20:40 <Lasty_> I know canofworms expressed interest in doing one, but I don't know what their schedule is like
12:20:54 <Lasty_> I suppose I could try doing a first-pass tile
12:20:55 <PleasingFungus> oh, just constant trouble. don't even ask about it - you'd just be opening a real
12:20:57 <PleasingFungus> can
12:20:58 <PleasingFungus> of
12:21:00 <PleasingFungus> worms!!!
12:21:03 <Lasty_> !glasses
12:21:03 <Sequell> ( •_•)    ( •_•)>⌐■-■    (⌐■_■)
12:21:05 <PleasingFungus> ty
12:21:34 <PleasingFungus> you can push the silly ddr tile. i won't stop you.
12:22:16 <Lasty_> well, I do respect the point about that tile possibly being the de facto tile forever if I'm not careful :;
12:22:17 <Lasty_> :p
12:22:25 <Lasty_> I would definitely prefer that that not happen
12:23:02 <Lasty_> !lg * (hep|usk) s=god / won
12:23:03 <Sequell> 134/3379 games for * (hep || usk): 81/1827x Hepliaklqana [4.43%], 45/1340x Ukayaw [3.36%], 8/212x Uskayaw [3.77%]
12:23:33 <Lasty_> Hep's win rates are creeping up
12:23:39 <Lasty_> but the play rates between the two are averaging out
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12:27:57 <PleasingFungus> !lg * current trunk s=god / won o=%
12:28:04 <Sequell> 532/49002 games for * (current trunk): 27/408x Pakellas [6.62%], 30/472x The Shining One [6.36%], 10/159x Zin [6.29%], 5/94x Elyvilon [5.32%], 29/636x Ashenzari [4.56%], 2/44x Jiyva [4.55%], 5/110x Fedhas [4.55%], 40/898x Makhleb [4.45%], 16/372x Qazlal [4.30%], 52/1331x Hepliaklqana [3.91%], 8/212x Uskayaw [3.77%], 31/898x Ukayaw [3.45%], 59/1931x Okawaru [3.06%], 35/1221x Vehumet [2.87%], 5/185x...
12:28:10 <PleasingFungus> wow, pak
12:30:05 <Lasty_> yeah, Pak is pretty nuts
12:30:18 <Lasty_> !lg Lasty pak / won
12:30:19 <Sequell> 3/3 games for Lasty (pak): N=3/3 (100.00%)
12:30:24 <Lasty_> I need to see how long I can extend that for
12:31:03 <Lasty_> I still intend to remove the whole potion-of-magic-overflow thing
12:31:13 <Lasty_> not that I think it'll significantly change Pak win rates
12:31:16 <PleasingFungus> you have a plan?
12:31:42 <Lasty_> I was thinking of putting the extra MP directly into wands at random via some formula.
12:32:14 <PleasingFungus> probably doesn't solve the Optimal Play 'problem'
12:32:22 <Lasty_> but honestly it might be better to just remove Pak's whole MP conduct and have wands just not deplete charges under Pak. It would be a remarkably small buff.
12:32:32 <PleasingFungus> hrm
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12:32:45 <Lasty_> Considering that you already have effectively unlimited wand charges
12:32:47 <PleasingFungus> wouldn't that remove the almost-no-casting conduct?
12:32:50 <Lasty_> yes
12:32:52 <PleasingFungus> that doesn't seem like a small buff to me
12:33:05 <PleasingFungus> it seems, instead, like a large one
12:33:23 <PleasingFungus> historically, the ability to cast spells, has been considered Good
12:33:27 <Lasty_> It's a small buff because the things it allows you to do were pretty unimportant anyway. Constant casting is already bad under Pak because the things you do that with Pak replaces for cheaper
12:33:35 <Lasty_> Periodic casting is already super easy under Pak
12:34:02 <PleasingFungus> disagree.
12:34:05 <Lasty_> For example, Pak doesn't meaningfully limit your access to spells like Haste, DMissiles, Regen. . .
12:34:12 <PleasingFungus> regen, really?
12:34:17 <PleasingFungus> regen takes a lot of casting to do anything
12:34:24 <Lasty_> well, depends on spellpower.
12:34:45 <Lasty_> But the real mana sinks are conjurations and summons, and Pak lets you do that for less XP anyway
12:35:04 <MarvinPA> it seems like going from almost-unlimited wand charges to literally-unlimited wand charges is the wrong direction to go to me?
12:35:23 <MarvinPA> i had been meaning to suggest increasing quick charge piety cost by a reasonable amount
12:35:42 <Lasty_> It removes the fiddliness, but it is technically a buff to a god that doesn't need one
12:35:48 <Lasty_> increasing the cost might be good
12:35:59 <Lasty_> but then we have to do something about the fiddliness ideally
12:37:30 <PleasingFungus> adding a there's a nontrivial cost to converting mp -> charges seems like it'd help with the Optimal Play Problem, yeah
12:37:46 <PleasingFungus> since then it wouldn't be necessarily Optimal to charge wands every time your mp was topped off
12:38:20 <Lasty_> Ah, yeah, if there was a piety cost or something . .
12:38:41 <Lasty_> in which case maybe we don't need an MP overflow condition
12:39:53 <PleasingFungus> sounds like a Developer Consensus
12:40:00 <PleasingFungus> a rare alignment of the spheres...
12:40:42 <Lasty_> * a significant piety cost, that is to say
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12:42:16 <Lasty_> What do we see as being the core design of Pak that we're trying to enhance? I know "more access to rods" was one; arguably "more powerful Evo" is another, tho I think someone (crate?) brought up a good point that having Evo be balanced w/ and w/o Pak both is very hard.
12:43:01 <Lasty_> "Replacement for Nem" could be one design goal, but I don't think that's the direction we've been going w/ him.
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12:43:23 <PleasingFungus> 'evo as primary killdudes', possibly, since evo doesn't really fill that role normally
12:43:26 <PleasingFungus> nem doesn't do it either
12:43:43 <Lasty_> But isn't that just "conjurations but easier"?
12:43:46 <MarvinPA> i mean the problem is sort of that the core design is a bunch of things that aren't good, imo (make evo stronger, make wand effects near-unlimited)
12:43:56 <Lasty_> MarvinPA: that's a bit what I'm getting at
12:44:11 <PleasingFungus> mb
12:44:12 <Lasty_> MarvinPA: which is why I have a hard time figuring out what direction to push the god in
12:45:37 <Lasty_> There's a big part of me that feels like the god maybe shouldn't exist
12:45:49 <MarvinPA> imo make pakellas "replacement for nem" in the sense of "god that is proposed to be removed", yes :P
12:46:11 <Lasty_> haha, glad we're on the same page
12:46:20 <MarvinPA> https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=17&p=271698#p271698 crate puts it pretty well here imo
12:46:23 <Lasty_> agreed
12:48:18 <Lasty_> MarvinPA: it sounds like you're already on the pro-removal train. Do you happen to know if anyone is strongly opposed?
12:48:32 * regret-index coughs.
12:49:08 <Lasty_> regret-index: What's the pro-Pak argument / core design idea?
12:49:34 <regret-index> oh, no, I meant in terms of cutting nemelex
12:49:40 <Lasty_> oh
12:49:42 <Lasty_> gotcha
12:50:01 <regret-index> nemelex is arguably better off in some senses with the decks being isolated... >_>
12:50:16 <Lasty_> regret-index: isolated as in not normally available?
12:50:20 <regret-index> yeah
12:50:41 <Lasty_> I would definitely prefer that. It also paves the way for making them purely notional, which would be a step in the right direction.
12:51:12 <Lasty_> But re: Pak, is anyone in the lets-keep-Pak camp right now?
12:51:13 <regret-index> yes, yes, there are plenty of nemelex proposals still possible to deal with decks and I've got a few ideas to clean up cards some more
12:51:16 <Lasty_> (that we know of)
12:51:17 <MarvinPA> having them actually be gifted-only would also allow changing nemelex from evo->invo, which would be nice
12:51:25 <Lasty_> yeah
12:51:36 <PleasingFungus> i've wanted decks to be gifted-only for a long time
12:51:42 <Lasty_> ditto
12:52:45 <MarvinPA> also good in that doesn't really preclude other nemelex changes like the hand thing (and maybe makes them easier if there's no need to worry about non-nemelex usage)
12:52:49 <regret-index> if we're not going to hide away rare permanent benefits in them, yeah, there's not much point in handing them out when there are already self-contained evokables
12:53:08 <regret-index> err, self-contained "fancy use non-consumables"
12:54:54 <wheals> yeah, it's not like removing decks will leave non-nem evokers with a dearth of choices
12:54:54 <Sequell> wheals: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
12:55:06 * dpeg_ uncoughs.
12:56:12 <PleasingFungus> http://sprunge.us/CVKX
12:56:15 <regret-index> hmph :P
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12:56:42 <PleasingFungus> at this point i feel like i'd want to merge misc acq with something else
12:56:53 <PleasingFungus> maybe pull rods in and/or remove staff acq
12:56:54 <MarvinPA> rods -> misc
12:56:55 <regret-index> dpeg I'm busy picking up a portal vault again so I don't have the brainspace available to try and repair more about nemelex :P
12:56:59 <PleasingFungus> MarvinPA: o/
12:57:05 <MarvinPA> \o
12:57:36 <MarvinPA> does leave staff acquirement in a slightly weird place though yeah
12:59:32 <Cheibriados> New branch created: nemdecks (1 commit) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/tree/nemdecks
12:59:32 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07[nemdecks] * 0.19-a0-468-g849648f: Remove decks from random generation 10(61 seconds ago, 2 files, 3+ 18-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/849648f6d9be
12:59:43 <MarvinPA> PleasingFungus: "     // Total weight if none have been seen is 100." !
12:59:47 <PleasingFungus> feh
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13:00:09 <MarvinPA> the versions of those comments in potion/scroll generation are the best
13:00:11 <ontoclasm> PleasingFungus: is that part of hand-of-nemelex
13:00:22 <MarvinPA> "total weight: some ridiculous arbitrary number that's probably 6 changes out of date"
13:00:42 <PleasingFungus> percents are nice
13:00:47 <PleasingFungus> ontoclasm: nah, though it'll probably make that easier
13:01:50 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07[nemdecks] * 0.19-a0-469-g18e27b7: Remove a newly inaccurate comment (MarvinPA) 10(21 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/18e27b7fa1b3
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13:07:17 <regret-index> still want somewhere to place controlled-rare-availability cleaving status (/ damage shaving status) to enable cutting down one of nemelex's roles (deck of war is... 16 different cards now?)
13:08:58 <Lasty_> regret-index: as in a non-deck item/consumable?
13:10:54 <regret-index> or a god!
13:11:15 <Lasty_> Uskayaw has great synergy w/ cleaving and fortitude, but probably does not need a buff . . .
13:11:28 <regret-index> maybe it could replace stomp? :P
13:11:37 <Lasty_> hmm, perhaps so
13:11:46 <Lasty_> that would accomplish a lot of the same goals
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13:13:27 <MarvinPA> guaranteed damage is the main thing i used stomp for, and it wouldn't work for that
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13:13:39 * regret-index shrugs.
13:14:06 <MarvinPA> no idea whether that's desirable or not necessarily, but it's mostly what lets it work for stabbers i think
13:14:25 <regret-index> if it's simplify nemelex or die I'd be fine with the effects even just going to xom
13:14:37 <ontoclasm> Lasty_: there was a concept i came up with at some point that might work for uka
13:14:41 <ontoclasm> uska, whatever
13:15:01 <ontoclasm> you use it and it puts down a 3x3 area at your feet
13:15:17 <ontoclasm> and then as long as you stay in that area you get bonuses
13:15:23 <Lasty_> regret-index: fair
13:15:29 <ontoclasm> but you can't put it down unless there's space, so no fighting in corridors
13:15:33 * ontoclasm shrugs
13:15:38 <ontoclasm> kinda dance-related
13:15:44 <Lasty_> ontoclasm: how long does the area last, and what sorts of bonuses would it give?
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13:18:15 <Lightli> honestly removing recharging or hw/tele/haste wands (or both) might be a good idea
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13:19:00 <Lasty_> I'm a fan of removing Haste/HW/Tele wands, but DD stands in the way of removing HW wands
13:19:14 <PleasingFungus> hm, sounds like another removal is called for
13:19:21 <Lightli> there's a solution to that
13:19:33 * Lightli puts up a "death to dwarves" sign
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13:19:57 <Lasty_> My memory last time I brought up dwarf genocide is that several devs didn't like the idea
13:20:29 <regret-index> really need to pick up those "dwarven halls vaults stripped down and left as ruins in tartarus" vaults again, huh
13:20:31 <PleasingFungus> i think elliptic is a fan
13:20:40 <PleasingFungus> i forget
13:21:45 <Lightli> are there even any dwarf enemies left outside of Wiglaf?
13:21:50 <regret-index> jorgrun.
13:22:05 <elliptic> PleasingFungus: uh, no
13:22:08 <elliptic> Lasty_: yes
13:22:10 <Lasty_> PleasingFungus: yeah, that's my memory
13:22:31 <Lasty_> Oh, no?
13:22:38 <PleasingFungus> apologies!
13:22:41 <Lasty_> elliptic: wait, yes to which?
13:22:42 <Lasty_> haha
13:22:45 <Lightli> oh yeah jorgrun
13:22:50 <elliptic> Lasty_: yes to "several devs didn't like the idea"
13:22:55 <elliptic> no to "I'm a fan"
13:23:22 <Lasty_> gotcha
13:23:36 <Lasty_> Do you recall who didn't like the idea?
13:23:44 <Lightli> could always make hw/haste/tele not rechargeable outside of the DD ability?
13:23:52 <MarvinPA> gammafunk: when you kill the lightning spire (with your d:2 lrd or whatever) in its_alive its "corpse" turns into a new thing
13:23:57 <Lasty_> IIRC it was enough people that it's probably not trying for
13:24:01 <regret-index> that is a terrible special case
13:24:11 <elliptic> Lasty_: no, because I don't remember this being seriously proposed
13:24:15 <Lasty_> gotcha
13:24:24 <Lasty_> We've got plenty of other things I'd cut before DD anyway
13:24:26 <MarvinPA> gammafunk: (discovered by &G generating double "it's alive!" messages)
13:26:42 <regret-index> I remember years ago jotting down "let deep dwarves recover some fraction of the damage they take and then reduce damage shaving"
13:27:20 <elliptic> that sounds... weird
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13:27:31 * regret-index shrugs
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13:29:15 <regret-index> fighting game provisional damage to reduce deep dwarves smashing through everything but not adding more pressure to the overall limited healing, I think I was thinking at the time
13:29:24 <Henzell> Unstable branch on crawl.akrasiac.org updated to: 0.19-a0-471-ga74cb86 (34)
13:29:33 <elliptic> "fighting game provisional damage" ?
13:29:44 <wheals_> i like recharging as setting apart wands from other consumables in giving you a choice in what to invest in
13:30:09 <wheals_> might matter more if the top three weren't so much better though
13:30:20 <Lasty_> wheals_: yeah
13:31:46 <elliptic> wheals_: hasting is the real offender there IMO
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13:32:58 <wheals_> i hear some nethack forks have made certain wands unrechargable :P
13:33:14 <regret-index> somehow, describing mvc / mh / sf4 etc red health feels really awkward.
13:33:18 <Lasty_> elliptic: I saw HW as being about the same level of problem
13:34:12 <Lightli> to be fair, I do sometime recharge a non haste/hw/tele wand
13:34:24 <Lightli> although it's almost always disint/digging for killholes
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13:35:41 <elliptic> Lasty_: disagree... it is much easier to run out of !haste than !hw generally
13:36:15 <Lasty_> That's not my experience, but that may just be a matter of play style (or me underusing !haste)
13:36:29 <elliptic> of course recharging HW is still good sometimes (most games have tons of ?recharging) but the difference between haste and not haste is just huge
13:36:36 <Lasty_> true
13:37:18 <Lightli> yeah
13:37:49 <elliptic> (and the spell is really rare nowadays even on chars interested in casting it)
13:37:58 <Lightli> haste wand and haste spell are both incredibly
13:37:58 <Lightli> *incredbile
13:38:02 <Lightli> and yeah the spell's only in one spellbook
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13:39:36 <Lasty_> It seems like it's a book that spawns pretty often, but maybe that's luck too
13:39:40 <Lasty_> I find it more often than wands of hasting
13:40:27 <elliptic> maybe you are getting lucky with finding it or not using wand acquirement enough :P
13:40:53 <regret-index> !source book_rarity
13:40:53 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/spl-book.cc#l115
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13:41:44 <elliptic> anyway I don't think removing haste/hw/tele would really make wand recharging more interesting - most wands are just pretty bad by mid-to-late game
13:43:06 <Lightli> yeah, the non-acid offensive wands really don't hold up
13:43:41 <Lasty_> I still like the idea of adding a rare more-top-end offensive wand with extremely limited charges -- something along the lines of wand of firestorm (1/1 charges)
13:43:56 <Lasty_> but it's definitely power creep
13:44:02 <Lasty_> so probably not a great idea
13:44:30 <elliptic> Lasty_: that could be interesting - it isn't necessarily power creep if it is taking some of the generation/acquirement weight from the current powerful wands
13:44:47 <amalloy> iceblast is okay
13:45:04 * geekosaur wonders if this is an actual justification for the evoker mechanic
13:45:46 <regret-index> kind of feels like it cheapens the level 9 stuff to be able to taste it easily, and something with a single charge is more inventory juggling incentive
13:46:20 <Lasty_> true
13:46:44 <elliptic> I assume you wouldn't have very good power on it without training evo up high
13:46:58 <ebering> imo evocations should try not to be 'this spell but you train evo instead of spc and spell school'
13:47:11 <elliptic> ebering: yeah, it wouldn't have to copy an existing spell
13:47:22 <Lasty_> elliptic: yes, definitely
13:47:24 <elliptic> just have some more powerful effect
13:47:27 <Lasty_> Wand power tops out at a pretty low level
13:47:28 <wheals_> wand of ice storm
13:47:32 <Lasty_> (except Pak)
13:47:32 <Lightli> yeah, 81 at 27 evo
13:47:33 <elliptic> wheals_: haha
13:47:37 <Lightli> also dang beaten to the ice storm one
13:47:38 <wheals_> wand of... singularity
13:47:43 <regret-index> wand of orb of electrocution
13:47:47 <wheals_> with a singular charge
13:47:49 <regret-index> wand of orb of fragmentation!
13:47:49 <Lightli> wand of summon dragon
13:48:35 <Lasty_> Wand of summon dargon. It was designed to summon dragons, but due to mistake it just summons a guy named Dargon.
13:48:38 <regret-index> hmm, not sure what I want with that blood saint explosions stuff with it possible to do
13:48:47 <regret-index> wand of dagon
13:48:58 <Lightli> so it summons a merfolk?
13:49:02 <elliptic> a stronger hexy wand could also be good now that wand of invis doesn't exist
13:49:11 <regret-index> no it summons a bread ration
13:49:16 <regret-index> stupid lovecraft
13:49:21 <elliptic> not sure exactly what, but some single-target hex with a power boost
13:49:28 <Lightli> wand of frenzy?
13:49:39 <regret-index> ...isn't that the point of wand of para? :P
13:49:42 <amalloy> paralysis is already a powerful single-target hex
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13:49:47 <travis-ci> The build passed. (nemdecks - 849648f #5740 : Nicholas Feinberg): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/135080573
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13:49:49 <elliptic> it doesn't have a power boost, no?
13:50:03 <elliptic> so it is quite bad against anything with MR
13:50:08 <amalloy> no, but if you thought a power boost were important you could just give it to /para
13:50:16 <elliptic> perhaps, though para is a strong effect
13:50:51 <elliptic> amalloy: personally I've found /para to be pretty terrible post-lair unless combined with ?vuln
13:51:05 <regret-index> do we still have wands of enslave
13:51:40 <Lasty_> we do
13:51:46 <Lasty_> and they're still great
13:52:10 <amalloy> elliptic: i'm not arguing whether the existing wands are strong. you said we could use a new, strong-effect hexing wand with a power boost to make it stay relevant, and i suggested instead taking the existing strong-effect hexing wands and giving one of them a power boost
13:52:18 <elliptic> Lasty_: not that good post-lair, though more useful than /para because you don't have to use them directly on strong monsters
13:52:53 <Lasty_> Yeah; there's still a lot of low-MR stuff through most of the game
13:52:57 <amalloy> i don't see any need to add a new wand to fill a niche that we're already attempting to fill. if we've failed in our attempt to fill the strong-hex niche, we can just buff those wands directly
13:53:14 <Lightli> yeah, enslave is good even in zot since you can enslave classed draconians
13:53:24 <Lasty_> yeah
13:53:24 <Lightli> and tell them to murder their kin
13:53:24 <Lasty_> And reavers in depths
13:53:26 <regret-index> @??draconian annihilator
13:53:26 <Gretell> red draconian annihilator (12q) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 65-91 | AC/EV: 9/10 | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40), 05fire | XP: 1489 | Sp: b.lightning (3d21), crystal spear (3d35), blink, iron shot (3d29), poison arrow (3d23) | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
13:53:34 <Lightli> @??yak
13:53:34 <Gretell> yak (07Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 33-45 | AC/EV: 4/7 | Dam: 18 | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 204 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.
13:53:45 <Lightli> @??elephant
13:53:45 <Gretell> elephant (03Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 9 | HP: 56-79 | AC/EV: 8/2 | Dam: 2007(trample), 5 | Res: 06magic(60), 12drown | XP: 481 | Sz: Giant | Int: animal.
13:53:57 <Lightli> @??purple draconian annihilator
13:53:57 <Gretell> purple draconian annihilator (12q) | Spd: 10 | HD: 16 | HP: 65-91 | AC/EV: 8/10 | Dam: 15 | 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, spellcaster, cold-blooded | Res: 06magic(40) | XP: 1489 | Sp: b.lightning (3d21), crystal spear (3d35), blink, iron shot (3d29), poison arrow (3d23) | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
13:54:09 <Lightli> huh
13:54:17 <elliptic> amalloy: well, I wasn't aware /para was an attempt to fill the strong-hex niche, and I think it might be too strong an effect to give a power boost to
13:54:42 <regret-index> clearly make it wand of petrify
13:54:57 <regret-index> ...spell overlap, bah
13:55:00 <Lightli> wand of "make-suck"
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13:58:39 <elliptic> (also giving a power boost to an existing wand sounds much more likely to cause power creep than adding a new wand and having it take some of the weight from our current top-tier wands)
13:59:27 <regret-index> could have more weight reshuffling after boosting an existing wand, of course
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14:00:08 <elliptic> Lasty_: anyway, I just mentioned hexy wands as another possibility in addition to or instead of your "wand of fire storm" idea - I don't know what would be best
14:00:40 <elliptic> but I do like the idea of having more different types of rare powerful wand
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14:01:11 <Lasty_> elliptic: yeah. In principle I like the idea of having a wand w/ 1/1 charges, but as regret-index said, it does potentially lead to more inventory clutter
14:01:37 <elliptic> Lasty_: I'm not sure why it would be more clutter if it is replacing wands like heal wounds or tele or hasting that I always carry already
14:01:53 <Lasty_> fair point
14:02:15 <elliptic> I also don't think it would need be quite that low-charge - could be max 3 charges and a somewhat weaker effect than low-power fire storm maybe
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14:03:53 <elliptic> some cloud spell maybe - could remake rod of clouds into a wand
14:04:08 <Lightli> wand of cloud
14:04:09 <elliptic> better if you can't just use clouds in every battle anyway
14:04:09 <Lightli> s
14:04:54 <Lasty_> elliptic: true
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14:05:56 <regret-index> outside of polymorph's hd interactions wands don't really change versus evocations, though, unless the wand just jumps straight to draining / acid / storm tier
14:06:13 <regret-index> erm, change in terms of effect
14:07:27 <ebering> Lasty_: strange things happen to Usk when as a mino you headbutt something, damage sharing happens and kills two things (one that also attacked you) and you subsequently headbutt DEAD MONSTER
14:07:30 <elliptic> yeah, I'm sure the rod of clouds effect would have to be tweaked if it was made into a wand
14:07:50 <Lasty_> ebering: yeah, I've seen similar bugs reported. I haven't had a chance to investigate best solutions.
14:07:59 <Lasty_> Thanks for mentioning it
14:08:09 <Lasty_> !learn add lasty_to_do[1 strange things happen to Usk when as a mino you headbutt something, damage sharing happens and kills two things (one that also attacked you) and you subsequently headbutt DEAD MONSTER
14:08:10 <Sequell> lasty to do[1/12]: strange things happen to Usk when as a mino you headbutt something, damage sharing happens and kills two things (one that also attacked you) and you subsequently headbutt DEAD MONSTER
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14:08:41 <elliptic> mainly I was just thinking that wand of freezing cloud would be pretty reasonable (as a rare item with low charges), but we might want it to not copy fcloud spell
14:09:08 <Lasty_> Wand of storm clouds?
14:09:28 <Lasty_> Would it use a cloud-type targeter? We don't have smite-targeted wands yet
14:09:31 <regret-index> rip acid fog :P
14:09:32 <elliptic> storm clouds have... issues with being used in a way that might cause players to be hit by them
14:09:32 <Lasty_> tho no reason we couldn't I suppose
14:09:36 <ebering> wand of summon acid crabs
14:09:46 <wheals_> the rod of clouds uses a different targetter
14:09:51 <wheals_> the wand could use it
14:09:54 <regret-index> cones, to be specific
14:09:58 <Lasty_> true
14:10:03 <wheals_> wand of cone of cold....
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14:10:30 <regret-index> storm clouds should be made less (but I guess still?) spikey, anyway
14:10:59 <elliptic> yeah, maybe they would be okay if the 4x spikiness was changed to 2x or something
14:11:42 <PleasingFungus> noisy
14:13:32 <regret-index> storms tend to be!
14:14:34 <Lasty_> We could also just use fire clouds, since we don't have an advanced fire-type wand
14:15:09 <elliptic> wand of flames
14:15:12 <Lasty_> . . . we could also repurpose wand of digging/disint into a wand of destruction: cone-shaped digging & damage
14:15:19 <elliptic> (wouldn't be confusing at all)
14:15:21 <Lasty_> haha
14:15:35 <regret-index> we do have a fire cloud evocations item still around, though
14:15:43 <Lasty_> regret-index: ah true
14:15:46 <regret-index> in... whatever capacity
14:16:12 <elliptic> Lasty_: merging digging and disint sounds interesting
14:16:33 <Lasty_> I wasn't sure when I proposed it, but I like it more as I think about it
14:16:34 <ontoclasm> i would find dig/disint much more palatable if they dug like... a 3x3 square
14:16:34 <regret-index> wand of bolt of energy! :P
14:16:41 <Lasty_> cone-shaped digging is harder to abuse
14:16:50 <elliptic> or even not merging them, leaving disint as it is, and replacing digging with a wand of destruction
14:21:24 <Lasty_> That would be fine too, but I think Disint should probably go. I'm not sure what role it plays that we want to keep
14:22:31 <elliptic> I sort of like how the effect plays out as an offensive wand in early game
14:23:06 <Lasty_> In player hands, monster hands, or both?
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14:23:15 <elliptic> in player hands
14:23:16 <Lasty_> We could just remove the digging aspect of Disint
14:25:14 <regret-index> monster distint, important to keep great orbs of eyes as offbrand eyes
14:27:54 <removelyvilon> I has a kwestion: Did the recent commits to acquirement change something crucial?
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14:29:43 <PleasingFungus> Yes.
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14:33:26 <travis-ci> The build passed. (nemdecks - 18e27b7 #5741 : Nicholas Feinberg): https://travis-ci.org/crawl/crawl/builds/135081169
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14:42:07 <Rotatell> emerson (L16 CeHu) ASSERT(mindex <= MAX_MONSTERS) in 'mon-util.cc' at line 418 failed. (D:15)
14:45:28 <removelyvilon> PleasingFungus what though?
14:45:54 <PleasingFungus> I shan't say.
14:47:30 <regret-index> commit comments are for the wind and the sea, not for prying eyes
14:48:56 <removelyvilon> hard knocks
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15:04:43 <regret-index> I like how syntax.txt still refers to "permanently" dry fountains
15:05:53 <PleasingFungus> reflowing will come back! it will!!!
15:06:20 <regret-index> with the god of fountains, right
15:06:32 <Lasty_> Clearly we need to add a thirst clock
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15:07:27 <regret-index> tie the piety clock to the thirst clock, need a clear throat to properly pray
15:07:39 <Lasty_> We've finally solved luring!
15:07:49 <ontoclasm> @??harpy
15:07:49 <Gretell> harpy (03H) | Spd: 25 | HD: 7 | HP: 33-45 | AC/EV: 2/10 | Dam: 19, 14 | fly | Res: 06magic(20), 03poison | XP: 623 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
15:07:54 <ontoclasm> green?
15:07:59 <ontoclasm> hm
15:08:01 <regret-index> H is a busy glyph.
15:08:19 <regret-index> ??glyphs
15:08:19 <Sequell> glyphs[1/2]: http://s-z.org/neil/tmp/crawl-glyphs-narrow.html — Generated with the script http://s-z.org/neil/tmp/crawl-glyphs
15:08:25 <ontoclasm> i guess i'll try
15:09:04 <regret-index> clearly, we'll cut hippogriffs, add swooping griffons, and then move griffons to brown so harpies can have yellow
15:09:11 <ontoclasm> :Y
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15:09:25 <Lasty_> hippogriffs certainly could go.
15:09:32 <regret-index> (that's not a sarcastic clearly that's waiting for pf to do the thing)
15:09:37 <Lightli> one of them or gryphons
15:09:38 <Lasty_> Also crocodiles
15:09:39 <ontoclasm> do it
15:09:44 <Lightli> they're probably the most similar monsters in the game
15:09:53 <ontoclasm> @??hippogriff
15:09:53 <Gretell> hippogriff (07H) | Spd: 10 | HD: 7 | HP: 33-45 | AC/EV: 2/7 | Dam: 10, 8, 8 | fly | Res: 06magic(20) | XP: 185 | Sz: Large | Int: animal.
15:09:53 <Lasty_> Lightli: griffons are sort of scary sometimes
15:09:55 <ontoclasm> @??griffon
15:09:55 <Gretell> griffon (08H) | Spd: 10 | HD: 12 | HP: 54-78 | AC/EV: 4/6 | Dam: 18, 10, 10 | fly | Res: 06magic(40) | XP: 548 | Sz: Big | Int: animal.
15:10:00 <Lightli> yeah that's what I mean
15:10:14 <Lasty_> Let's make griffons fast
15:10:15 <Lightli> griffons are hippogriffs but just...more
15:10:22 <Lasty_> megagriff
15:10:24 <regret-index> not enough fast things, huh
15:10:36 <Lasty_> regret-index: never enough!
15:10:36 <Lightli> hydragriff
15:10:36 <regret-index> should just push meliai
15:10:41 <Lasty_> regret-index: whassat?
15:10:49 <regret-index> %git bee-priestesses
15:10:49 <Cheibriados> Could not find commit bee-priestesses (git returned 128)
15:11:04 <regret-index> http://git.develz.org/?p=crawl.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/bee-priestess
15:11:23 <gammafunk> !tell MarvinPA Yeah, I hadn't thought about; I should remove the trigger on the spire itself, which is from how statue_experiment does things. Will tweak that later
15:11:23 <Sequell> gammafunk: OK, I'll let marvinpa know.
15:12:29 <Lightli> Lasty: smiting killer bees basically
15:12:33 <CanOfWorms> will wyverns finally have a derived undead tile that isn't dragons
15:12:47 <CanOfWorms> they look like drakes now so it would be fitting for them to have that
15:12:49 <regret-index> smiting killer bees that hit harder!
15:12:57 <PleasingFungus> easy change to make
15:12:59 <ontoclasm> yeah, should probably have the drake tile
15:13:07 <ontoclasm> since they are Minor Dragons
15:13:17 <regret-index> poor rathian
15:13:45 <removelyvilon> what about bee vaults in abyss and depthts
15:13:59 <regret-index> bee vaults in abyss and depths already use wasps
15:14:10 <regret-index> I should have added them to the abyss hive rune vault though yes
15:14:46 <Lasty_> regret-index: looks neat, tho the damage seems low
15:15:11 <regret-index> they have axes! and can be berserked!
15:15:21 <Lasty_> battle-axe class axes?
15:15:47 <Lasty_> so ~29 base damage . . . that's not bad
15:16:03 <PleasingFungus> various axe types
15:16:09 <regret-index> one-handed axes
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15:16:41 <Lasty_> ~25 w/ a war axe
15:16:47 <Lasty_> @?? fire dragon
15:16:48 <Gretell> fire dragon (04D) | Spd: 10 | HD: 12 | HP: 73-106 | AC/EV: 10/8 | Dam: 20, 13, 1307(trample) | fly | Res: 06magic(60), 05fire++, 03poison, 12drown | Vul: 12cold | XP: 1074 | Sp: fire breath (3d24) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath] | Sz: Giant | Int: animal.
15:16:49 <regret-index> speed 20 smiting hurts, anyway, I think the trios preformed well vs. daevas
15:16:58 <Lasty_> ah, nice
15:17:00 <regret-index> ( >_> )
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15:17:12 <Lasty_> I suppose I don't have any experience w/ speed 20 smiting :)
15:18:59 <regret-index> did not push them since I was hesitant to have more fast swarming monsters (killer bees, ritualist bands, harpies, either shrike, spark wasps, snake/wasp/etc vaults)
15:20:13 <regret-index> @??howler monkey
15:20:14 <Gretell> howler monkey (09h) | Spd: 12 | HD: 3 | HP: 16-21 | AC/EV: 1/11 | Dam: 3, 2 | 10doors | Res: 06magic(10) | XP: 54 | Sp: warning cry [11!AM, 08breath] | Sz: small | Int: animal.
15:20:38 <Cheibriados> 03PleasingFungus02 07* 0.19-a0-472-g4ec9042: Diminish wyverns' derived undead tiles 10(44 seconds ago, 1 file, 1+ 1-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/4ec904295b47
15:21:45 <Lasty_> I'm a big fan of our fast swarms. I don't think they should be a constant onslaught, but I think early killer bees are some of our best monsters, and the more experiences like that we offer the better.
15:21:57 <Lasty_> (up to some limit)
15:24:28 <regret-index> clearly to respect the limit they should just replace harpies
15:24:50 <Lasty_> I like harpies...
15:24:54 <gammafunk> Is there a good example aside from killer bees though?
15:25:05 <gammafunk> I mean harpies are not terribly impressive as monsters go
15:25:12 <regret-index> shrikes
15:25:32 <regret-index> spark wasps?
15:25:34 <gammafunk> those don't really swarm most of the time
15:25:38 <gammafunk> yeah spark wasps in depths maybe
15:26:19 <Lightli> the other shrike type in depths
15:26:21 <Lightli> er
15:26:22 <Lightli> coyc
15:26:23 <Lightli> *coc
15:26:43 <gammafunk> Thinking more in the 3-rune game
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15:26:52 <Lightli> well they're like the extended equivalent
15:27:09 <Lightli> oh yeah they were named shard shrikes derp
15:27:10 <gammafunk> I don't think shard shrikes are too effective at killing people in cocytus
15:27:19 <gammafunk> !lg * br=coc s=ikiller% recent
15:27:19 <Sequell> 192 games for * (br=coc recent): 58x Antaeus (30.21%), 32x the effects of Hell (16.67%), 28x (14.58%), 16x a shard shrike (8.33%), 15x an Ice Fiend (7.81%), 12x an elemental wellspring (6.25%), 7x the Serpent of Hell (3.65%), 5x an ice dragon (2.60%), 3x a blizzard demon (1.56%), 2x a reaper (1.04%), 2x a titan simulacrum (1.04%), 2x a titan skeleton (1.04%), a frost giant (0.52%), an eight-headed...
15:27:26 <Lightli> more than ice fiends!
15:27:31 <gammafunk> that's not saying much
15:27:44 <elliptic> !lg * br=coc s=ckiller% recent
15:27:45 <Sequell> 192 games for * (br=coc recent): 58x Antaeus (30.21%), 28x a shard shrike (14.58%), 21x water (10.94%), 21x an Ice Fiend (10.94%), 11x an elemental wellspring (5.73%), 8x a reaper (4.17%), 6x the Serpent of Hell (3.12%), 6x an ice dragon (3.12%), 5x a blizzard demon (2.60%), 3x something (1.56%), 2x an eldritch tentacle (1.04%), 2x a titan simulacrum (1.04%), 2x a bone dragon (1.04%), 2x a titan s...
15:28:05 <amalloy> the times i can recall being suddenly afraid of something in coc, other than antaeus fights going badly, are all when the effects of hell dropped half a dozen shrikes on me
15:28:10 <gammafunk> hrm
15:28:14 <elliptic> gammafunk: ikiller there puts a lot of things under hell effects
15:28:19 <gammafunk> yeah that's a good point
15:28:38 <gammafunk> they're probably nice as hell effects
15:28:54 <regret-index> only one summoner in cocytus and it only has one water elemental kill up there anyway
15:28:54 <gammafunk> good 21x water
15:28:58 <gammafunk> clearly we're doing our jobs
15:29:05 <Lasty_> gammafunk: I wish caustic shrikes swarmed more. Too many vaults in depths.
15:29:12 <regret-index> ...you do know we practically removed drowning, right
15:29:23 <gammafunk> Lasty_: I don't think it's so much a vault issue, probably just a general layout issue
15:29:32 <gammafunk> if you mean not enough open space
15:29:44 <gammafunk> I mean it's true that a lot of the 9 8 come from vaults
15:29:52 <Lasty_> gammafunk: no, I mean, they always spawn in bands when they spawn naturally, but they almost never spawn naturally
15:29:53 <gammafunk> but that's not exactly the vaults' fault
15:30:16 <gammafunk> Lasty_: right, but that's not the fault of vaults
15:30:17 <Lasty_> Maybe they should be made to spawn a little more often in-depth...
15:30:36 <gammafunk> Vault spawns don't detract from level spawns really
15:30:45 <elliptic> !lg * recent depths s=ckiller
15:30:46 <Sequell> 3490 games for * (recent depths): 224x a stone giant, 156x a frost giant, 147x an iron giant, 138x a spark wasp, 137x a caustic shrike, 131x an ettin, 126x a juggernaut, 123x a fire giant, 111x a spriggan air mage, 103x a deep troll earth mage, 90x a very ugly thing, 84x a spriggan berserker, 76x a deep troll, 73x a yaktaur, 73x an ice dragon, 69x a vampire knight, 67x an iron troll, 65x a sprigga...
15:31:01 <elliptic> that's a lot of kills already IMO
15:31:05 <Lasty_> nice
15:31:09 <Lasty_> Yeah, it is
15:31:22 <gammafunk> yeah, they seem to get kills despite not being killer bee type spawns as much
15:31:23 <elliptic> I'm surprised spark wasps are so high
15:31:23 <Lasty_> I wonder what percentage of those were spawned in a pack
15:31:33 <gammafunk> elliptic: people seem to forget about invis/their low mr
15:31:37 <gammafunk> and maybe don't have relec
15:31:42 <elliptic> Lasty_: probably almost all of them? I basically never see a lone shrike
15:31:48 <Lasty_> yeah, if you don't have ?fear or rElec they hit hard
15:32:20 <elliptic> I usually just tab them without rElec and it works well enough
15:32:25 <gammafunk> I think people assume spark wasps are more shrike-levels of resistant, since they maybe haven't encountered them much pre-depths
15:32:47 <amalloy> i think players mostly don't think about hexes by the time they get to depths
15:33:06 <gammafunk> amalloy: well, is ?fear a hex that's hard to think about?
15:33:21 <gammafunk> or an invis pot for that matter
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15:33:38 <elliptic> btw iron giants are extremely high on that list given how rare they are
15:33:51 <gammafunk> they have pretty massive damage
15:33:52 <elliptic> I think I've seen 2 in like a dozen games to clear depths
15:34:14 <gammafunk> !lg * recent depths ckiller=iron_giant s=ckaux
15:34:15 <Sequell> 147 games for * (recent depths ckiller=iron_giant): 82x iron shot, 50x, 9x giant club, 3x dire flail, 3x giant spiked club
15:34:35 <elliptic> !lg qw recent depths s=ckiller
15:34:36 <Sequell> 74 games for qw (recent depths): 5x an iron giant, 4x a frost giant, 4x a spark wasp, 4x a juggernaut, 3x an ice dragon, 3x a stone giant, 3x a spriggan berserker, 2x an ogre mage, 2x a crystal guardian, 2x an ugly thing, 2x a vampire knight, 2x an octopode crusher, 2x a very ugly thing, 2x an Ice Fiend, 2x a caustic shrike, 2x an ettin, an entropy weaver, a player ghost, a fire giant, quitting, a...
15:35:19 <gammafunk> @??iron giant
15:35:19 <Gretell> iron giant (10C) | Spd: 8 | HD: 22 | HP: 176-253 | AC/EV: 18/2 | Dam: 75 | 10items, 10doors, fighter, spellcaster, see invisible | Res: 06magic(120), 05fire, 02cold, 03poison, 12drown | XP: 3698 | Sp: iron shot (3d37), throw [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Giant | Int: human.
15:35:26 <gammafunk> 3d37 is Quite Powerful
15:35:30 <Lightli> elliptic: They're at the top of the list for dis too
15:35:38 <Lightli> although that was pre-speed-nerf
15:36:01 <gammafunk> !lg * br=depths cv>=0.18 s=ckiller%
15:36:10 <Sequell> 737 games for * (br=depths cv>=0.18): 44x a stone giant (5.97%), 43x an iron giant (5.83%), 36x an ettin (4.88%), 33x a spark wasp (4.48%), 30x a spriggan air mage (4.07%), 27x a caustic shrike (3.66%), 25x a frost giant (3.39%), 24x a fire giant (3.26%), 22x a spriggan berserker (2.99%), 22x a deep troll earth mage (2.99%), 18x a very ugly thing (2.44%), 17x a yaktaur (2.31%), 15x a vampire knigh...
15:36:10 <elliptic> well I assume they actually generate in dis
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15:36:23 <regret-index> gotta have that better-than-unique health
15:36:57 <PleasingFungus> we didn't appreciate the crushers we had until they were gone...
15:36:58 <PleasingFungus> sad....
15:37:07 <gammafunk> Crushers literally stupid
15:37:09 <gammafunk> like felid jumping
15:37:11 <elliptic> can I suggest that maybe dangerous monsters specific to a single hell shouldn't also generate in depths?
15:37:23 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: when are you bringing back felid jumping
15:37:39 <PleasingFungus> elliptic: be the commits you want to see in the mon-pick-data
15:37:40 <regret-index> you mean, vaults wise?
15:37:45 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: when I figure out how to take it away again in a way that maximizes nrook trolling
15:37:47 <regret-index> sorry for that >_>
15:37:56 <PleasingFungus> it's too late! the game is dead to him!!!!
15:38:19 <regret-index> crawl the lichloved
15:38:42 <gammafunk> elliptic: what are the worst offenders there? You think iron giants should be dis-only? Any others?
15:38:43 <PleasingFungus> ew
15:38:45 <PleasingFungus> i'm out!
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15:39:31 <elliptic> gammafunk: I meant iron giants, yeah - just seems strange to me to have that overlap just to have another strong rare depths monster
15:39:40 <gammafunk> Iron giants could certainly work as a dis-only monster if need be
15:39:54 <gammafunk> !lg * recent br=dis s=ckiller%
15:39:55 <MarvinPA> having them be dis only would also fix how weird it feels for both them and juggernauts to show up in the same place
15:39:55 <Sequell> MarvinPA: You have 1 message. Use !messages to read it.
15:39:55 <Sequell> 318 games for * (recent br=dis): 96x an iron giant (30.19%), 87x a Hell Sentinel (27.36%), 21x a Brimstone Fiend (6.60%), 17x a hellion (5.35%), 17x a reaper (5.35%), 10x the Serpent of Hell (3.14%), 9x a stone giant (2.83%), 8x an Ice Fiend (2.52%), 8x Dispater (2.52%), 5x an iron dragon (1.57%), 5x a war gargoyle (1.57%), 4x something (1.26%), 4x an Executioner (1.26%), 2x a player ghost (0.63%)...
15:40:13 <gammafunk> yeah, it's true that juggernauts probably make more sense as depths monsters
15:40:34 <gammafunk> I think juggernauts could maybe use some kind of ranged attack though; nothing as insane as 3d37 iron shot
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15:40:43 <gammafunk> not sure if that's really a wise direction for the monster
15:40:53 <MarvinPA> well, they are fast so doesn't seem like they need it necessarily
15:40:57 <regret-index> nah, juggernauts are focused enough as is
15:41:03 <elliptic> we could aim for each hell to have one monster that is really specific to it and won't be seen elsewhere - shard shrikes for coc, iron giants for dis, etc
15:41:19 <elliptic> yeah, juggernaut ranged attack is being fast
15:41:19 <regret-index> doom hounds cover tar
15:41:19 <gammafunk> sure, we also have doom hounds
15:41:21 <gammafunk> iron giants as dis-only makes sense to me
15:41:22 <regret-index> the... gehenna monster is...
15:41:24 <gammafunk> they're effective there
15:41:31 <elliptic> @??doom hound
15:41:31 <Gretell> doom hound (03h) | Spd: 13 | HD: 20 | HP: 96-124 | AC/EV: 6/13 | Dam: 45, 30 | 05demonic, unholy, see invisible | Res: 06magic(20), 08blind, 04rot, 13neg+++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | XP: 3388 | Sp: doom howl [11!AM, 06!sil] | Sz: Medium | Int: animal.
15:41:34 <gammafunk> regret-index: a future hangedman joint
15:41:50 <regret-index> ??doom howl
15:41:50 <Sequell> doom hound[1/3]: In 0.18 a demon that appears in Tar, has a smite-targeted MR-ignoring hex that summons relatively nasty tar monsters. Lasts 12-18 turns. Has non-existent MR.
15:42:15 <gammafunk> I think they're getting some kills, not iron giant levels
15:42:20 <elliptic> the geh monster can be hell hogs??
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15:42:22 <gammafunk> !lg * recent tar s=cikiller%
15:42:23 <Sequell> 99 games for * (recent tar): 18x a doom hound (18.18%), 17x the effects of Hell (17.17%), 16x Ereshkigal (16.16%), 12x the Serpent of Hell (12.12%), 7x a reaper (7.07%), 7x (7.07%), 5x an ancient lich (5.05%), 4x a Tzitzimitl (4.04%), 3x a hellion (3.03%), 2x a lich (2.02%), 2x a shadow demon (2.02%), a Zot trap (1.01%), a death drake (1.01%), a shadow wraith (1.01%), the fury of Okawaru (1.01%), ...
15:42:28 <gammafunk> yeah
15:42:51 <gammafunk> take nellie, buff nellie, add as normal generation monster
15:42:53 <elliptic> !lg * ikiller~~hog s=ikiller
15:42:53 <Sequell> 1401 games for * (ikiller~~hog): 864x a hell hog, 339x a hog, 75x Chog's ghost, 39x mhoghedin's ghost, 19x whog's ghost, 17x a hog (shapeshifter), 10x ahoge's ghost, 3x Pikel the hog, 3x a hog (glowing shapeshifter), 3x Sigmund the hog, 3x Niddhoggr's ghost, 3x thenidhogg's ghost, 3x Purgy the hog, 2x HOGE's ghost, 2x Nergalle the hell hog, 2x Niddhogr's ghost, 2x Tsathoggua's ghost, Maurice the h...
15:42:55 <gammafunk> worked for the iron giant
15:43:09 <regret-index> { SPELL_FIREBALL, 60, MON_SPELL_NATURAL | MON_SPELL_BREATH }, clearly should be 120
15:43:45 <gammafunk> hell hogs can be more of a thing if we add hell kirke and hell porkolater
15:44:00 <regret-index> @??hell hog
15:44:00 <Gretell> hell hog (04h) | Spd: 14 | HD: 11 | HP: 49-69 | AC/EV: 2/9 | Dam: 20 | natural, 05demonic, unholy | Res: 06magic(40), 05fire++, 13torm | Vul: 08holy++ | Chunks: 14noxious | XP: 858 | Sp: fireball (3d20) [11!AM, 06!sil, 08breath] | Sz: Medium | Int: animal.
15:44:51 <regret-index> ...I still wonder why we need natural/demonic and natural/holy holiness >_>
15:44:58 <elliptic> (I wasn't serious about hell hogs, though I didn't know they had been given fireball)
15:45:35 <gammafunk> I think it became possible with the holiness bitfield rework, but I guess it doesn't mean we have to actually use both
15:45:56 <regret-index> @??profane servitor
15:45:56 <Gretell> profane servitor (05A) | Spd: 15 | HD: 18 | HP: 128-180 | AC/EV: 10/20 | Dam: 2505(vampiric), 1013(drain) | 07undead, 10items, 10doors, fighter, evil, see invisible, fly, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(140), 02cold, 10elec, 09poison+++, 12drown, 04rot+++, 13neg+++, 08holy, 13torm | XP: 3901 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
15:46:03 <regret-index> tisk
15:46:07 <MarvinPA> i'm not sure what the benefits of it are yeah
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15:46:33 <gammafunk> @??bennu
15:46:33 <Gretell> bennu (08b) | Spd: 16 | HD: 14 | HP: 62-89 | AC/EV: 6/16 | Dam: 2708(holy), 1813(drain), 18 | evil, see invisible, fly, regen | Res: 06magic(140), 04fire+++, 03poison, 04rot, 13neg+++ | Vul: 12drown, 08holy | XP: 1287 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
15:46:34 <MarvinPA> and i don't think anyone knows what would actually happen if profane servitors were undead/holy
15:47:31 <regret-index> @??demonspawn
15:47:32 <Gretell> demonspawn (076) | Spd: 10 | HD: 6 | HP: 28-39 | AC/EV: 3/13 | Dam: 10 | natural, 05demonic, 10weapons, 10items, 10doors, unholy | Res: 06magic(20), 13torm | Vul: 08holy++, 11silver | XP: 196 | Sz: Medium | Int: human.
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15:50:47 <gammafunk> !lm * current !boring br.enter=geh|dis|coc|tar s=br / lg:br=$noun o=%
15:50:50 <Sequell> 147/2858 milestones for * (current !boring br.enter=geh|dis|coc|tar): 62/728x Dis [8.52%], 33/690x Coc [4.78%], 29/726x Geh [3.99%], 23/714x Tar [3.22%]
15:51:37 <regret-index> I wonder where purgatory will fit amongst those
15:51:57 <gammafunk> aim for a 50% killrate
15:52:06 <Lightli> bring back silver stars clearly
15:52:38 <regret-index> time to give ophan quicksilver storm
15:54:08 <gammafunk> !source pakellas_experiments.des
15:54:09 <Sequell> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/dat/des/altar/pakellas_experiments.des
15:55:14 <Lightli> man, there used to be so many more holy monsters weren't there
15:55:21 <Lightli> silver stars, shedu, phoenix...
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15:56:22 <regret-index> paladin, spirit
15:56:36 <regret-index> blessed toe
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15:59:16 <Lightli> rip paladins
15:59:44 <Lightli> man, backgrounds with god starts were much more common in the old dsys
15:59:46 <Lightli> *days
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16:01:23 <Lightli> Pr (Zin, Beogh), Pa (TSO), He (Ely), DK (Yred, originally Kiku), old CK (lost Makh start when broken up into 3 classes), Jester for the week or so that existed...
16:01:54 <Lasty_> elliptic: I kind of like having iron giants as a rare Depths spawn that you simply should not fight
16:01:54 <regret-index> I give it maybe two years before berserkers get cut for weakening the point of god choice and chaos knights when xom is buffed into functionality
16:02:04 <Lightli> still would have abyssal knights
16:02:09 <Lasty_> And re: juggernauts, I still wish they had cleaving. I suppose we could give them axes.
16:02:25 * regret-index coughs.
16:03:20 <Lasty_> Lightli: we can replace abyss knights by making 1/100 characters just spawn in the abyss. <.<  >.>
16:03:39 <regret-index> abyssal wanderer
16:03:53 <Lightli> or make lugonu altars pop up early a bit more often than currently
16:03:56 <elliptic> Lasty_: crawl already naturally has plenty of situations where you shouldn't fight things though
16:04:13 <MarvinPA> i think there are plenty of times that kind of thing can happen in depths yeah
16:04:28 <Lightli> I had a game a few weeks ago when I opened a door and 10 caustic shrikes + a juggernaut came into view
16:04:33 <Lasty_> fair enough :)
16:04:40 <regret-index> was it twisty_corner
16:04:41 <Lasty_> Lightli: fabulous
16:04:44 <Lightli> maybe
16:04:50 <Lightli> (I murdered them all and took the Sword of Jihad as my prize)
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16:05:44 <Lightli> !log . won -3
16:05:44 <Sequell> 150/152. Lightli, XL25 DENe, T:77743: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Lightli/morgue-Lightli-20160529-233737.txt
16:05:52 <Lightli> !log . won -4
16:05:53 <Sequell> 149/152. Lightli, XL27 TrHu, T:61461: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Lightli/morgue-Lightli-20160526-162151.txt
16:06:01 <Lightli> !log . won -5
16:06:01 <Sequell> 148/152. Lightli, XL27 HOBe, T:53131: http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Lightli/morgue-Lightli-20160523-030307.txt
16:06:18 <regret-index> in a sense I wonder if gauntlet will be too weak >_>
16:07:44 <Lightli> considering how my most hated foe in portal vaults are the random and not very predictable freezing clouds because I can't prevent them by just murdering something, maybe
16:07:53 <Lightli> (in ice caves to be more precise)
16:08:04 <regret-index> on my list, on my list
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16:09:31 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-472-g4ec9042 (34)
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16:18:07 <Lasty_> hey CanOfWorms, ontoclasm mentioned that you might be interested in making an Uskayaw altar tile. Are you still interested?
16:18:21 <CanOfWorms> yeah, I just haven't had time to start working on it yet :v
16:18:42 <Lasty_> I ask because someone submitted a silly DDR-themed one, and I don't really want to add it, but I'd love to get the generic one replaced with something. :)
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16:23:15 <gammafunk> Lasty_: might that mess with your choice of ETC_INCARNADINE
16:23:37 <gammafunk> raw flesh isn't very DDR, but I may be out of touch with what the kids are into!
16:24:09 <gammafunk> usk is maybe more tomb of the necrodancer than DDR, I guess
16:24:22 <gammafunk> s/tomb/crypt/? I forget
16:24:34 <Lasty_> the kids are definitely into raw flesh
16:24:44 <MarvinPA> coffin
16:25:00 <CanOfWorms> what's U's colour?
16:25:18 <Lasty_> !source ETC_INCARNADINE
16:25:19 <Sequell> 1/1. https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/colour.h#l61
16:25:34 <Lasty_> IIRC purple/red
16:25:55 <Lasty_> !source religion.cc
16:25:56 <Sequell> https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/master/crawl-ref/source/religion.cc
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16:26:19 <Lasty_> yeah, red/magenta
16:28:01 <regret-index> still think some oversized beast mask rack would be more interesting than a drum >_>
16:28:22 <Lightli> I would rather have the drum
16:28:35 <Lightli> just because of how ordinary it would be compared to the other altars
16:29:38 <Lasty_> regret-index: I'm a little worried that the beast mask thing might feel a bit like appropriating tribal culture
16:29:46 <Lasty_> otherwise I like it fine
16:29:49 <regret-index> hm
16:30:32 <Cheibriados> 03gammafunk02 07* 0.19-a0-473-g3ac10ee: Fix some lua triggers in a vault (MarvinPA) 10(4 minutes ago, 1 file, 27+ 50-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/3ac10ee328e8
16:30:44 <gammafunk> rip powerful secret tech
16:31:18 <regret-index> witch doctor masks are pretty seperate from actual beast dance masks, mind you
16:32:40 <Lasty_> if you can assure me that we're on good cultural ground I'd be happy to go w/ beast masks
16:33:03 <Lasty_> I don't nearly enough about the subject to make a good judgment
16:34:40 <gammafunk> r-i is just playing the long game to introduce a new unrand mask design
16:35:33 <regret-index> yes, it'll be of a dragon, and it'll give sinv, and
16:35:47 <Cheibriados> Ru doesn't offer me sacrifces when only two I can choose remain. 13https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=10476 by TTsY
16:35:58 <Lasty_> that's true, but not a bug
16:36:08 <gammafunk> Dance Dragon Dance, my other favorite song from Labyrinth (1986)
16:37:18 <CanOfWorms> ru can't give sac arcana more than once?
16:37:25 <Lasty_> no
16:37:36 <gammafunk> Is that a recent change?
16:37:37 <Lasty_> Ru used to, but I felt that was too close to just a "no magic" conduct
16:37:43 <Lasty_> gammafunk: like 2 versions ago
16:37:55 <gammafunk> I see, it felt like a great way to game sacrifices
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16:38:02 <gammafunk> "oh these other schools I'm not using"
16:38:11 <Lasty_> Yeah, that plus stepping on Trog's toes
16:38:22 <Lasty_> I didn't want Ru to feel like "Trog 2"
16:38:31 <amalloy> trogpocalypse
16:38:37 <gammafunk> Trog actually gets quite upset if you step on its toes
16:38:42 <Lasty_> that's true
16:38:44 <CanOfWorms> pak had trogpocalypse once
16:38:47 <Lasty_> I've seen it
16:39:04 <CanOfWorms> it was removed because it gave too much contam :v
16:40:12 <gammafunk> oh, I vaguely remember that
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16:41:12 <regret-index> https://google.ca/search?q=witch+doctor+mask&tbm=isch vs https://google.ca/search?q=witch+doctor+mask&tbm=isch / https://google.ca/search?q=witch+doctor+mask&tbm=isch
16:41:15 <regret-index> with barong as a king of good spirits in eternal conflict with evil and the generalized use of lion dance as maritial arts discipline maybe specific "trailing lion mask" might make a good uskayaw altar motif?
16:41:40 <regret-index> (...yes, crawl has no lions)
16:42:04 <CanOfWorms> they all died to make uskayaw altars
16:42:21 <regret-index> ...oh, whoops, those are wrong links
16:42:31 <CanOfWorms> haha
16:42:53 <regret-index> just, uh, google "barong mask" and "lion dance", they're not really anything similiar >_>
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16:45:00 <CanOfWorms> !learn add uskayaw http://dl36mmdz94630.cloudfront.net/uploads/assets/images/000/007/538/large/Taiko1.jpg?1389771277
16:45:01 <Sequell> uskayaw[4/4]: http://dl36mmdz94630.cloudfront.net/uploads/assets/images/000/007/538/large/Taiko1.jpg?1389771277
16:45:04 <regret-index> (I was doing gauntlet work so I _kind_ of don't want to go and pull out the academic databases... >_>)
16:46:52 <Lasty_> CanOfWorms: haha
16:47:17 <gammafunk> the final form of Lasty
16:47:35 <regret-index> rhythm heaven still the best design of the genre for moving beyond literalized note hitting
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16:48:30 <|amethyst> I want to see a music performance game based around tape loops
16:49:00 <|amethyst> Fripp and Eno present... Soundscape Hero
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16:54:32 <regret-index> oh, hey, I actually got a character to enter the void of a broken level
16:56:48 <regret-index> Memorise Haste, consuming 6 spell levels and leaving -6?
16:58:30 <amalloy> regret-index: that's normal via &!
16:58:37 <amalloy> if you see it during a real game i'm surprised
16:59:27 <Lasty_> gammafunk: my ultimate form cannot be defeated
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17:00:28 <regret-index> I just mean, said &! is silly.
17:00:42 <MarvinPA> it had all the same restrictions as normal memorisation until pretty recently and it was v. annoying
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17:01:32 <MarvinPA> didn't seem worth the effort to fiddly with messaging when making it actually useful, also negative spell slots are a real thing technically!
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17:01:43 <MarvinPA> to fiddle*
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17:01:53 <regret-index> I _mean_, it could give "(despite having no spell slots)" instead of negative spell slots
17:01:55 <|amethyst> MarvinPA:  sacrifice skill?
17:02:07 <MarvinPA> i was thinking ash reskilling, but yeah that too i imagine
17:02:09 <amalloy> learn add regret-index-todo
17:03:07 <regret-index> ??regretindex
17:03:07 <Sequell> regretindex[1/1]: http://pastie.org/10862403
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17:09:29 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-473-g3ac10ee (34)
17:15:47 <minmay> ??wraith card
17:15:47 <Sequell> wraith card[1/1]: Card from the deck of Punishment. Decreases your level by 1.
17:15:50 <minmay> also that
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17:16:46 <MarvinPA> !learn edit wraith_card s/ Decreases.*/Drains you./
17:16:47 <Sequell> wraith card[1/1]: Card from the deck of Punishment.Drains you.
17:16:57 <MarvinPA> !learn edit wraith_card s/Drains/ Drains/
17:16:57 <Sequell> wraith card[1/1]: Card from the deck of Punishment. Drains you.
17:17:38 <MarvinPA> minmay: as of 0.14 :P
17:18:20 <MarvinPA> gosh, portal card used to be in punishments
17:18:38 <MarvinPA> terrifying
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17:19:53 <regret-index> d:27-ishment?
17:20:02 <minmay> learndb u suck
17:20:15 <gammafunk> ??portal_card
17:20:15 <Sequell> portal card[1/1]: Teleports you. power_level/2 chance each of being controlled and of randomly blinking you. The teleport control lasts for several turns.
17:20:31 <MarvinPA> hmm i think back then you still got your evocations skill bonus to punishment cards too, i wonder if you could've gotten a controlled teleport as wrath
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17:20:56 <MarvinPA> i forget exactly how all that stuff was weird, but it was very weird
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17:23:38 <CanOfWorms> http://i.imgur.com/QI97e6K.png
17:23:44 <CanOfWorms> something like this for uskayaw, maybe
17:24:46 <regret-index> mmm
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17:26:02 <regret-index> face drum... might be risky, though, at least with the wood colouration >_>
17:26:08 -!- GauHelldragon2 is now known as GauHelldragon
17:26:23 <regret-index> (though lasty did use etc_incarnadine)
17:27:32 <Lasty_> regret-index: risky in terms of blending together?
17:28:29 <regret-index> in resembling the whole tribal stuff to avoid
17:29:46 <Lasty_> I picked incardnadine because Uskayaw is very much a god of the flesh -- think Bacchus/Dionysus, etc.
17:29:47 <regret-index> (...I mean, there are at least certainly less vicious stereotypes in the continent folk-culture switch, is why I advocated for red/gold lions)
17:29:59 <regret-index> right, right, huehuecoytl
17:30:14 <regret-index> technically red/magenta has no brown anyway :P
17:30:14 <CanOfWorms> yeah I can make it the face area more golden
17:32:23 <ontoclasm> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1000017/crawl/harpy.png
17:32:28 <ontoclasm> only half-done, but
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17:33:10 <Lasty_> back in a bit -- gotta travel
17:33:37 <regret-index> ha, nice way of fitting in the console green
17:33:45 <ontoclasm> xD
17:35:09 <CanOfWorms> http://i.imgur.com/MbebtsD.png
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17:48:19 <ontoclasm> fr: harpy champions or something
17:48:22 <ontoclasm> so i can draw them
17:48:50 <CanOfWorms> rename shard shrikes to harpy champions
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17:48:55 <ontoclasm> !!!
17:49:15 <ontoclasm> hell harpies
17:49:37 <CanOfWorms> fr: harpy summoning unique named http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Mai_Valentine
17:50:41 <regret-index> ontoclasm: well there are those meliai, bees and birds are the same right
17:51:01 <CanOfWorms> time to teach the player about the birds and the bees...
17:51:05 * ontoclasm checks a biology textbook
17:51:07 <geekosaur> (beerds)
17:51:09 <ontoclasm> yes
17:51:54 <ontoclasm> regret-index: also give something invis other
17:51:55 <CanOfWorms> wiglaf is not a dwarf, he's actually just a bunch of birds and bees
17:52:32 <regret-index> lorocyprocas, clearly
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18:15:13 <Lantell> Unstable branch on underhound.eu updated to: 0.19-a0-473-g3ac10ee (34)
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18:18:56 <PleasingFungus> hm, should i tell the ddr altar guy not to make another?
18:19:05 <PleasingFungus> since afaik he's working on the variant i suggested...
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18:28:24 <gammafunk> I decided that as long as the travesty of "hazy altar" exists, it makes no sense to have cool ETC colors for hep altars
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18:29:25 <gammafunk> Suffice it to say that this topic will be discussed at length and the next biweekly meeting of the Council of Console Champions
18:29:29 <gammafunk> s/and/at/
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18:30:19 <PleasingFungus> what if it was a green haze
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18:30:21 <PleasingFungus> or a purple haze
18:31:15 <gammafunk> Purple Haze probably isn't even a reference to you, is it?
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18:32:14 <|amethyst> Skews me, wall-eyed Kiss disguise
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18:34:42 <PleasingFungus> dang... i only ever kissed this guy.
18:36:59 <amalloy> i forget what the word for that kind of mis-hearing of lyrics is. it's close to an eggcorn, but those are different things
18:37:30 <PleasingFungus> mondegreen?
18:38:01 <amalloy> ah, indeed
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18:54:17 <|amethyst> man, my photoshop skills sucked
18:54:49 <|amethyst> s/ed$//
18:55:10 <|amethyst> s/photoshop/gimp/  of course
18:55:18 <|amethyst> I was trying to make an image of myself wearing a wall-eyed Kiss disguise, but that did not work so well :)
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19:00:50 <amalloy> alternatively, it worked very well and you are cruelly witholding the results
19:01:48 <PleasingFungus> photoshop is hard.
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19:06:43 <|amethyst> amalloy:  so bad I quit without saving
19:06:49 <amalloy> rip
19:06:58 <amalloy> photoshop suicide
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19:13:27 <Cheibriados> 03Lasty02 07* 0.19-a0-474-g1cd1b9d: New Uskayaw altar tile (CanOfWorms) 10(37 seconds ago, 1 file, 0+ 0-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/1cd1b9d09609
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19:18:38 <Cheibriados> New branch created: pull/290 (2 commits) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/290
19:18:38 <Cheibriados> 03Sandman2502 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/290 * 0.19-a0-474-g07eff1f: Remove cloak of invisibility and randart +Inv 10(28 minutes ago, 5 files, 4+ 9-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/07eff1f71d76
19:18:38 <Cheibriados> 03Sandman2502 07https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/290 * 0.19-a0-475-gb41c541: Remove contamination generation while invisible, increase contamination from cast instead 10(4 minutes ago, 2 files, 1+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/b41c5410f07e
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19:22:10 <Lightli> man, more stealth nerfs
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19:23:50 <Lightli> wouldn't that just leave potions and the spell
19:24:31 <Lasty> Lightli: that's a pull request; it hasn't been merged
19:24:44 <Lightli> I know
19:24:59 <Lightli> but the proposal still would royally suck for non-mage stabbers
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19:37:20 <Lasty> The seven-headed hydra bites Civil society! Civil society is destroyed!
19:37:39 <gammafunk> good riddance
19:39:28 <PleasingFungus> i guess i should really go rebalance hep ancestors at some point
19:39:44 <amalloy> PleasingFungus: make sure Despotism is stronger than Democracy
19:39:51 <PleasingFungus> lol
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19:49:34 <Lasty> I renamed my ancestor again
19:49:43 <Lasty> after the most beautiful phrase in the English language
19:49:46 <Lasty> which I discovered today
19:49:55 <Lasty> Bonus Donuts the hexer
19:50:34 <PleasingFungus> !!!
19:50:40 <PleasingFungus> how'd your battlemage go?
19:50:47 <Lasty> I died
19:50:53 <Lasty> probably of siphilis
19:50:54 <PleasingFungus> o
19:51:02 <PleasingFungus> battlemage up
19:51:03 <Lasty> !lg lasty hep
19:51:04 <Sequell> 3. Lasty the Nimble (L12 OpWn of Hepliaklqana), mangled by a komodo dragon on Lair:2 (serial_bayou_shore_a) on 2016-06-01 01:15:52, with 16662 points after 16685 turns and 0:54:50.
19:51:06 <PleasingFungus> (under-powered)
19:51:08 <Lasty> oh, right
19:51:09 <PleasingFungus> good komodo
19:51:17 <Lasty> I actually died of leaning on tab
19:51:19 <PleasingFungus> lol
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19:51:36 <Lasty> I was made in the motherfucking shade and forgot that I was an octopode and held down tab til I died for no reason
19:52:02 <Lasty> Wanderer start, started w/ book of ice, a crossbow, and a randart book w/ swiftness and repel missiles
19:52:09 <Lasty> that might be the best possible start
19:52:16 <n1> you need crawl.ahk (which macros tab to mousewheel)
19:52:21 <Lasty> haha
19:52:57 <n1> it's really the most luxurious way to play
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19:57:59 <PleasingFungus> sounds soothing
19:58:13 <PleasingFungus> just scroll your way through...
19:58:32 <amalloy> FR scrolling down presses tab, scrolling up goes back in time
19:58:46 <n1> yeah you sort of lean back and say to yourself, "I hope this fight turns out well"
19:58:46 <amalloy> so i can just read the story of how i eventually die on D:5
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20:07:37 <gammafunk> Lasty: One area you really need to work on for you new god
20:07:42 <gammafunk> is its altar generating in temple
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20:08:09 <Lasty> gammafunk: it doesn't?
20:08:10 <Lasty> oops
20:08:20 <gammafunk> no it *can*
20:08:23 <gammafunk> but it doesn't always
20:08:23 <Lasty> oh
20:09:02 <Lasty> . . . are  you implying that the god is so exciting it should always be in temple? I'm not sure I get it.
20:09:26 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-474-g1cd1b9d (34)
20:09:31 <gammafunk> it'd be good if it always places in temple when I want to take the god
20:09:39 <gammafunk> this would be a fine change for sif as well
20:09:43 <amalloy> put it next to sif altars
20:09:48 <amalloy> make him really rip his heart out
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20:10:41 <Lasty> gammafunk: I mean, Uka and Ru should probably always spawn on D:2
20:10:47 <Lasty> To make sure all chars have access to the most fun gods
20:10:49 <amalloy> pakellas already does
20:10:50 <Lasty> :p
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20:11:40 <Lightli> pakellas is really fun
20:11:42 <regret-index> clearly, what we need is the return of shrine.
20:11:55 <gammafunk> Well lets not go all crazy and declare usk fun just yet
20:12:02 <gammafunk> that's now a word we should throw out with wild abandon
20:12:20 <Lasty> If we're not doing things with wild abandon, why do them at all?
20:17:29 <debo> Trog agrees
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20:22:18 <dpeg_> Is anyone in favour of Sandman's PR? I am. We can increase generation of !Inv for compensation, if we feel like it.
20:23:31 <gammafunk> I don't see what the relation is between !inv and +inv really
20:23:49 <gammafunk> I guess I can't argue really strongly for +inv other than invis stabbers being fun
20:23:57 <gammafunk> and invis being fun in general
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20:25:36 <dpeg_> gammafunk: oh, I like stabbers too, but (a) there is a spell which requires meaningful investment, (b) whereas evocable Inv does not, and (c) we have four sources of Inv (potion, wand, items, spell). Do we need them all?
20:25:46 <gammafunk> we don't have the wand
20:25:57 <dpeg_> ah, I am behind the times :)
20:26:33 <regret-index> could make evocable inv need _even_ _more_ investment >_>
20:26:38 <gammafunk> we do have two reusable sources of invis, but they are not so strong that it's dominating players' choice of items with other properties
20:27:12 <gammafunk> and while it's true that +inv can be used with minimal investment, in practice characters that use it a lot are going to invest in evocations
20:27:25 <gammafunk> if that's their primary source of invis and they use invis extensively
20:27:35 <amalloy> regret-index: there's a good argument against that on the tavern thread, i think
20:27:35 <gammafunk> because the duration increase is very good
20:27:53 <dpeg_> not sure how tight that argument is b/c Evo is considered overpowered anyway?
20:27:54 <amalloy> ie, the problem is that you can spam invis "attempts" even at 95% fail
20:27:57 <chequers> I like removing +inv from everything but a few unrands, since unique unrand artps are cool
20:28:20 <dpeg_> chequers: but keep spell and consumable?
20:28:45 <chequers> no opinion on invis in general
20:28:51 <gammafunk> you can spam rage attempts at low success pretty well as well
20:28:55 <chequers> I just like removing evocable artifact properties from random generation
20:29:15 <gammafunk> well that's not really a general position we're advocating
20:29:21 <dpeg_> gammafunk: but that's highly different from Inv attempts (not that I think +Rage items are the rage, but they don't have this one problem, imo)
20:29:23 <gammafunk> "remove evocable abilities"
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20:29:42 <gammafunk> dpeg_: how is it highly different?
20:29:45 <amalloy> gammafunk: but "rage you generally only want to activate while you're near monsters
20:29:55 <amalloy> invis you often want to activate before combat, so you have all the time in the world
20:29:56 <gammafunk> that's true of invis as well?
20:30:10 <gammafunk> monsters who can't see you are really really bad at killing you
20:30:10 <dpeg_> gammafunk: you spam +Inv in advance, before going into battle. You cannot trigger +Rage on bad % *in* a battle.
20:30:19 <amalloy> yes, invis is a great mid-combat buff, agreed
20:30:19 <gammafunk> dpeg_: that is untrue
20:30:22 * dpeg_ has a hunch that gammafunk is a pre-battle rager :)
20:30:31 <amalloy> but it's *also* great to use before, say, going down stairs, or opening a door
20:30:44 <gammafunk> dpeg_: I use rage on bad% in battle basically all the time
20:30:48 <gammafunk> when I find/use rage that is
20:30:50 <dpeg_> ah, you're a better play than me
20:31:01 <minmay> rage has like 50% success at 0 evo so might as well use it even then
20:31:50 <gammafunk> amalloy: if you're not raging down stairs you're doing it wrong
20:31:54 <gammafunk> also rage opening doors
20:32:02 <chequers> rage committing
20:32:04 <dpeg_> important: rage while chopping up corpses
20:32:08 <gammafunk> yes
20:32:32 <gammafunk> I dunno, I'd be curious to hear MPA and edotcom's thoughts on it
20:32:44 <dpeg_> edotcom?
20:32:52 <gammafunk> I think a lot of the anti-+inv comes from people who maybe just don't like invis the effect so much, but it's a fun effect for me
20:33:05 <gammafunk> dpeg_: emoney, efamous
20:33:26 <gammafunk> aka hyperdotcom
20:33:42 <dpeg_> gammafunk: like I said, I use my Inv, and I think it's too cheap on cloaks/items
20:34:09 <dpeg_> dabbling with chances does not seem to help, so perhaps we can add another cost
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20:34:57 <Lasty> I also tend to thing that evokable invo is a bit on the cheap side, but it's not like the cloak is easy to come by
20:35:06 <gammafunk> I guess I don't see why people would have a problem with +inv but not +rage, they have very similar problems
20:36:21 <gammafunk> yeah +inv is not too common these days; my last sp that lucked into a +inv at the end of lair hat when no invis spell generated the whole game was pretty happy
20:36:22 <dpeg_> gammafunk: true, but at least +rage comes with an innate risk, and there is no spell to compete with
20:36:32 <gammafunk> I Cast Trog
20:36:34 <amalloy> i have [invis this game
20:36:50 <Lasty> gammafunk: agreed
20:36:52 <minmay> you don't spam +rage until it works
20:37:08 <minmay> you do that with +inv sometimes up stairs or whatever
20:37:19 <dpeg_> yes, I agree that +Inv is the bigger stinker here
20:37:54 <gammafunk> I mean, I train at least 5 evo so I can use the property more reliably, and usually get a bit more than this if I'm planning to use it much
20:38:02 <dpeg_> gammafunk: removing +Inv will make more people worship Sif Muna!!!
20:38:08 <gammafunk> Again maybe if MPA/edotcom agree
20:38:15 <gammafunk> dpeg_: it will not
20:38:29 <minmay> gammafunk: it will make more stupid people worship sif muna maybe!
20:38:30 <gammafunk> people worship Sif Muna because they have good taste, you can't buy that
20:38:35 <gammafunk> minmay: true
20:38:51 * dpeg_ worships Trog because he has bad taste. Much better!
20:39:03 <gammafunk> The taste of Trog-Mint gum...
20:39:36 <minmay> i assume that tastes like a mixture of pork rinds and gasoline
20:42:42 <Lasty> PleasingFungus: Hep is a little like anti-Chei. All your opponents are slowed constantly...
20:43:01 <gammafunk> I notice how much slowing it does, does seem like quite a bit
20:43:19 <PleasingFungus> i like the implication that all hep characters are (or should be) using the hexer
20:43:30 <PleasingFungus> which they probably should be, because having a portable torpor snail is super op
20:43:31 <Lasty> PleasingFungus: it seems really, really good
20:43:32 <gammafunk> doesn't it do passive slow?
20:43:35 <PleasingFungus> it's too good.
20:43:36 <minmay> all hep characters are (or should be) using the hexer
20:43:41 <PleasingFungus> minmay: yes agreed
20:43:50 <gammafunk> *The Jinx
20:43:51 <PleasingFungus> whenever i change hep next, that's going away
20:43:52 <Lasty> it's hard to imagine something as good as slowing all your foes
20:44:11 <PleasingFungus> mass confusion is vaguely in the same ballpark
20:44:34 <gammafunk> I thought that slowness was a hep passive thing
20:44:36 <gammafunk> shows what I know
20:44:41 <gammafunk> ??hep
20:44:41 <Sequell> hepliaklqana[1/4]: God of ancestral memory, playable on cbro. Grants a powerful, customizable permanent ancestor at ** piety, which will be automatically revived if slain (after a few dozen turns). Likes exploration. 0*: ally & recall, 2*: Remember Life, 3*: {Transference}, 4*: {Idealise}, 5*: Transference-slow
20:44:41 <Lasty> yeah, tho I think it's easier to resist
20:44:45 <PleasingFungus> you're thinking of the 5*
20:44:53 <gammafunk> ah, that's only on invocation?
20:45:03 <PleasingFungus> yeah, mass conf checks mr, metabol engl only checks rc
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20:45:17 <PleasingFungus> ??transference
20:45:17 <Sequell> Transference[1/1]: Hepliaklqana 3* ability. Switch any creature's location (including yourself!) with your ancestor's, as long as your ancestor is in LOS. At 5*, also slows creatures adjacent to the target for a duration dependent on invo; from 3-6 to 6-20 turns, at 0/27 invo respectively.
20:45:19 <PleasingFungus> gammafunk: ^
20:45:45 <gammafunk> I see
20:46:13 <regret-index> doesn't metabolic englaciation also check hd
20:46:31 <Lasty> Orc, Lair, and D:12 cleared, wearing one ring on this octopode. And yet, I don't feel weak.
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20:47:42 <PleasingFungus> regret-index: i think it scales on that? but slowing occurs regardless?
20:47:44 <PleasingFungus> would have to check
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20:51:28 <chequers> dont nerf hexer!!!
20:51:48 <elliptic> about removing the remnants of evocable invis, I actually assumed that it was already gone when I heard that =inv had been removed
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20:52:55 <elliptic> cloak of darkness and randart +Inv sources are rare enough now that I don't think it is a particularly significant change
20:53:35 <gammafunk> cloak of darkness? That's referring to just ordinary invis cloaks?
20:53:42 <Lightli> yup
20:53:51 <elliptic> personally I thought +Inv was fun to use and not too powerful (compared for instance with +Rage)
20:53:56 <elliptic> gammafunk: oh, right, it was renamed at some point
20:54:19 <elliptic> the item is so rare that I don't remember what it is called now :P
20:55:03 <elliptic> anyway I guess I am saying that I'm not particularly in favor of removing +Inv but it seems like we might as well given that we already removed the ring...
20:55:26 <Lightli> the removal of +inv was to make evokable invis rarer in general, not killing it completely
20:55:39 <gammafunk> er
20:55:53 <gammafunk> removal of +inv would have a hard time not killing +inv completely
20:56:01 <Lightli> well, =invis
20:56:28 <Lightli> as it stands only one ego cloak and randarts have invis evokable anyways
20:58:32 <elliptic> also a lot of the randarts that had +Inv were actually randart rings of invis
20:58:40 <elliptic> so there are fewer now
20:59:37 <MarvinPA> the PR itself isn't good because it breaks fedhassprint, and i don't know about the contam change (probably also not good in that it makes the remaining unrand sources of invis contam-free?)
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21:00:11 <elliptic> I do think that evocable invis has one design flaw (no penalty for failing to use it, not even noise or hunger) and that if we keep it then we might want to do something about it
21:00:24 <Lasty> elliptic: wasn't it just ring of shadows?
21:00:29 <elliptic> Lasty: huh?
21:00:34 <Lasty> er sorry
21:00:35 <Lasty> randarts
21:00:35 <Lasty> right
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21:03:29 <PleasingFungus> elliptic: yeah, it seems like the obvious answer to "people spam this effect at a high failure chance" is "add some consequence for trying, or for failing"
21:03:35 <elliptic> (I don't have any particularly good idea right now for adding a penalty for failure to evoke invis - the issue is that other evocable abilities don't have failure effects and it might be strange for this to be the only one)
21:03:53 <PleasingFungus> how many other evocable abilities are left?
21:03:59 <PleasingFungus> invis, berserk, fly?
21:04:02 <gammafunk> +blink +rage +fly
21:04:05 <PleasingFungus> ah, blink
21:04:14 <elliptic> I meant abliities in general really
21:04:19 <PleasingFungus> fair
21:04:24 <elliptic> stuff using the a menu
21:04:43 <elliptic> I guess we could do something similar to what was done with makhleb's demon invocations
21:04:46 <MarvinPA> makhleb demons are an exception there now
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21:04:50 <MarvinPA> yeah
21:05:00 <regret-index> evoking invis has hunger costs on a quick check, though my local is currently a bit back
21:05:08 <gammafunk> you summon a hostile invisible illusion of yourself
21:05:16 <elliptic> regret-index: not for failure, no?
21:05:17 <Lasty> It might be good if more evokables had failure consequences
21:05:29 <regret-index> ...oh
21:06:01 -!- ystael has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:06:03 <regret-index> ...surely, an easy start would have been to apply said hunger regardless of success >_>
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21:08:05 <elliptic> regret-index: then there would be the question of whether abilities with non-hunger costs should also have their costs applied on failure
21:08:17 <amalloy> also, failing to cast a spell costs MP, but failing to evoke doesn't
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21:08:57 * regret-index shrugs
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21:14:00 <gammafunk> amalloy: well, if the ability costs mp, evocation items could be made to work that way
21:14:08 <gammafunk> I think +invis does cost mp
21:14:11 <amalloy> did someone change how tab finds its targets recently? i am getting weird claims of "No target in view!" when there's a monster just two tiles away from me, with a cloud of flame between us"
21:14:28 <gammafunk> yeah, autofight was changed in a couple recent commits
21:14:31 <amalloy> even shift-tab won't attack him
21:14:33 <gammafunk> elliptic knows the details
21:14:42 <elliptic> amalloy: well, previously tab wouldn't attack it either
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21:14:47 <elliptic> amalloy: because tab wouldn't walk into the cloud
21:14:51 <amalloy> elliptic: it would say "failed to move towards target"
21:14:52 <elliptic> the message just changed
21:15:01 <amalloy> but shift-tab worked!
21:15:15 <elliptic> shift-tab with what weapon?
21:15:20 <amalloy> stones in my quiver
21:15:29 <amalloy> and a sword
21:15:31 <elliptic> hm, I thought I checked that case
21:15:38 <amalloy> elliptic: it seems to work most of the time
21:15:43 <amalloy> but like there are some layouts where it doesn't
21:16:01 <amalloy> http://crawl.akrasiac.org/saves/amalloy-crawl-git-a74cb8606e-160603-2115.tar.bz2
21:16:08 <amalloy> a game in which i currently cannot tab a thing
21:20:14 <elliptic> oh, I see, have_ranged() and have_throwing() are separate checks here
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21:20:41 <elliptic> I should really clean up autofight.lua sometime, it is rather convoluted now due to various people adding various options to it
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21:22:18 <amalloy> elliptic: also why did the message change? No target in view! doesn't make sense to me when i can clearly see a target
21:23:13 <elliptic> amalloy: it isn't a target if you can't get to it :P (and don't have autofight set to use a ranged attack)
21:23:33 <elliptic> but yes, I can try to see how easy it would be to get the old messaging back
21:24:16 <elliptic> amalloy: I changed autofight in response to requests to make autofight not charge towards unreachable monsters
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21:25:17 <elliptic> previously it would move towards them until it reached the obstacle (glass or cloud or whatever) and then stop with the message about the monster being unreachable; now it just looks for a monster that it can reach
21:28:45 <amalloy> yeah, i remember that behavior, and the change you say you made sounds like an improvement to me
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21:38:35 <elliptic> amalloy: how does "No reachable target in view!" sound for this situation?
21:38:52 <amalloy> very accurate
21:39:21 <amalloy> i guess it might be mis-implying something abotu reaching weapons?
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21:49:38 <Rotatell> Mordru (L8 HaGl)  (D:6)
21:52:53 <Cheibriados> 03elliptic02 07* 0.19-a0-475-gfca3800: Fix AUTOFIGHT_THROW and messaging (amalloy). 10(6 minutes ago, 1 file, 6+ 4-) 13https://github.com/crawl/crawl/commit/fca3800c46e2
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21:54:35 <Rotatell> Mordru (L8 HaGl)  (D:6)
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21:57:15 <Lightli> crazy idea from observer chat
21:57:24 <Lightli> make Nemelex decks/abilities work off of invo rather than evo
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21:58:34 <dpeg_> Lightli: not so crazy, I pondered this. But I still think that removal of cards is better.
21:58:46 <Lightli> and replaced with what
21:58:52 <dpeg_> with nothing
21:59:00 <Lightli> you draw nothing!
21:59:06 <dpeg_> (or with sanka's god which replaced random cards with random spells)
21:59:28 <dpeg_> My main beef with Nemelex is the list of special effects. Using spells instead is okay.
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22:00:19 <regret-index> invo rather than evo nemelex was brought up earlier today >_>
22:00:38 <Lightli> would make pakellas the only evo god at least
22:00:50 <dpeg_> Lightli: that would be an improvement in itself, I agree
22:03:04 <regret-index> I still think at some effective trimming point nemelex would be okay
22:03:16 <Lightli> yeah
22:03:22 <regret-index> three types of deck, no rarities, six effects per deck?
22:03:23 <Lightli> how many unique effects does nemelex have right now?
22:03:55 <Lightli> (off the top of my head tomb card, orb card at full power, pentagram card summoning normally not summonable things, blade card, bone card, foxfire card...)
22:04:21 <regret-index> bone, what? :P
22:04:31 <Lightli> the one that summoned a skeleton or bone dragon
22:04:33 <regret-index> cut literally years ago
22:04:37 <Lightli> welp
22:04:49 <Lightli> Nemelex: no one knows what cards are even still in
22:05:10 <regret-index> the easier way to put it is that escape has 11 cards, destruction has 8, and war has 16
22:05:15 <dpeg_> You draw the Map. It shows all current cards.
22:05:58 <regret-index> I mean, nobody minds the design of major destruction
22:06:02 <regret-index> ??major destruction
22:06:02 <Sequell> major destruction[1/2]: Power is based on invocations. Randomly fires one of: bolt of fire|lightning|draining|iron, fireball, ranged sticky flame, or an orb of electricity that will explode with radius 2 and make you wish you hadn't fired at something so close to you.
22:07:01 <regret-index> it's just that nemelex is on too high of a scale
22:07:29 <dpeg_> regret-index: yes, but Makhleb powers require no fine-tuning and no research -- it's just about flavour of attack/summon.
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22:08:00 <regret-index> there are still wrinkles
22:08:05 <zxc> I suggested in ##crawl a few days ago: remove cards, use invo, have nemelex give separate abillities to draw 1 of 3 for each deck type spending mp and piety, and at 6* piety you get a one-time use of a special deck with permanent bonuses
22:08:29 <regret-index> like said orb of elec / bolt bouncing lightning in your face / summoned cacodemon digging / summoning hostile executioner
22:09:31 <Jorgrell> Unstable branch on crawl.jorgrun.rocks updated to: 0.19-a0-475-gfca3800 (34)
22:09:39 <regret-index> by itself that doesn't do enough since e.g. do you know all sixteen war cards off the top of your head
22:10:07 <zxc> well that seems to just be part of the learning curve of the god
22:10:12 <Naruni> for an overhaul to the menu code: would it be proper to move menu classes into new files, such as menu_god.cc menu_spells.cc, menu_shop.cc, and so on?
22:10:25 <Naruni> *menu sublcasses
22:10:30 <zxc> you could easily have a ? in the ability to see what the cards do
22:10:36 * regret-index sighs
22:10:51 <regret-index> a million different matters to fix-up and edit in and of themselves
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22:11:11 <regret-index> and everybody always takes the cards for granted >_>
22:11:38 <Lightli> is there a card list?
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22:11:54 <regret-index> ?/c "the"
22:11:55 <Sequell> No matches.
22:11:59 <Lightli> ??cards
22:12:00 <Sequell> cards[1/2]: See {deck}. Full list: the Alchemist, the Banshee, the Blade, the Cloud, the Crusade, the Curse, the Dance, Damnation, Degeneration, Dowsing, the Elements, the Elixir, Famine, the Feast, Focus, Fortitude, Foxfire, the Hammer, the Helix, the Helm, the Illusion, the Mercenary, the Orb, the Pentagram, the Potion, Pain, Placid Magic, the Rangers...
22:12:02 <regret-index> (in-game)
22:12:21 <Lightli> holy god that list must be out of date
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22:12:41 <regret-index> eh, only less than two years
22:12:44 <Lightli> just realized
22:12:56 <Lightli> isn't the Xom card still able to give you a permanent benefit if you get lucky
22:13:33 <regret-index> one benefit of the wiki: actually prefixing every entry with the version it's describing
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22:14:00 <regret-index> at a certain degree of luck required one might as well be concerned about too much acquirement
22:15:08 <dpeg_> are cards Nemelex-only now, or was that a pull request?
22:15:20 <Lightli> pull request
22:15:24 <MarvinPA> neither, it was just discussed a bit
22:15:28 <regret-index> branch of a dev
22:15:29 <dpeg_> ah, I see
22:15:30 <MarvinPA> oh actually yes
22:15:33 <MarvinPA> pf made a branch
22:16:25 <dpeg_> I am unsure about this: on the one hand, this probably improves quality of life for every character not following Nemelex. On the other hand, this makes it very explicitly that the whole card mechanic only exists for one god.
22:17:48 <regret-index> still firmly saying plenty of gods have localized mechanics and it's a matter of scale >_>
22:18:12 <Lightli> yeah, sacrifice only is a Ru thing
22:18:23 <dpeg_> regret-index: sure thing
22:18:50 <dpeg_> 4 am here, got to sleep
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22:20:48 <CanOfWorms> then, once the mechanic is localized to a single god, it will lead to nemelex's removal...
22:20:51 <CanOfWorms> just as planned
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22:21:15 <bh> I always miss that dpeg
22:21:53 <nicolae-> rip
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22:57:31 <gammafunk> wow it's a bh
22:57:58 <gammafunk> MarvinPA: do you have that quick sifcast patch you made handy, was going to play with that
22:58:02 <gammafunk> I can always find it through the logs
22:59:00 <MarvinPA> ah, not easily, would have to reboot to linux
22:59:07 <gammafunk> nbd, I'll go search for it in the logs
22:59:27 <MarvinPA> i did a little more work on it locally since then i think, started on a mp regen invoc
22:59:30 <gammafunk> maybe I saved it, actually
22:59:38 <MarvinPA> but that bit isn't really very functional yet anyway
22:59:52 <gammafunk> yeah that part's not too hard to implement anyhow
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23:00:11 <gammafunk> no, but I do have grunt_vampire_lords.patch, so that's good
23:00:44 <gammafunk> bet I have a few classic grunt patches saved around
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23:04:27 <gammafunk> found it: http://sprunge.us/gGYS
23:05:12 <gammafunk> 10/10 commit message, really all you need to say
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23:14:09 <PleasingFungus> MarvinPA: fun note about my don't-generate-decks branch, which i realized almost immediately after pushing it: what happens in acquirement if you've seen all misc items & sacrificed love?
23:14:20 <PleasingFungus> (possibly a crash, possibly a void demon.)
23:14:42 <nicolae-> one way to find out
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23:15:08 <gammafunk> fr: you get a mailer daemon
23:15:22 <gammafunk> give the greybeards something to appreciate
23:16:15 <regret-index> mailer midge
23:16:18 <nicolae-> sounds nethacky
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23:20:18 <regret-index> plant round, bush round, tree round. dry / regular / glowing fountain rounds. stone / metal / crystal wall rounds. stone, large rock, granite statue rounds.
23:20:40 <minmay> PleasingFungus: just give them a quad damage
23:20:45 <regret-index> ...this doesn't feel nearly demonic enough.
23:21:16 <PleasingFungus> heh
23:21:38 <PleasingFungus> minmay: thought is to merge rod & misc acq ('evo acq'?), and then maybe remove staff acq
23:21:57 <PleasingFungus> maybe remove ammo acq while i'm at it
23:22:32 <gammafunk> PleasingFungus: how would you acquire staff?
23:22:41 <gammafunk> *acquire a staff
23:22:44 <PleasingFungus> why do you need to be able to acquire staves?
23:22:49 <gammafunk> because it's good
23:22:53 <gammafunk> acquire gives you good things
23:23:08 <gammafunk> why weapons and not staves?
23:23:15 <minmay> remove staves
23:23:20 <minmay> only solution
23:23:24 <doy> merge weapon and staff acq?
23:23:27 <gammafunk> that is a more reasonable approach in some ways
23:23:40 <nicolae-> remove acquirement
23:23:46 <minmay> another good idea
23:23:46 <PleasingFungus> because almost every character has a use for weapons, whereas only a limited # of chars have a use for staves, and typically they only care about pretty specific staves.
23:24:11 <minmay> but like, gammafunk, you could say the same for adding potion acquirement, scroll acquirement, rune acquirement, carrion acquirement, orb acquirement...
23:24:29 <gammafunk> and you could pretty much apply the logic to weapon acquirement if you wanted to?
23:24:38 <gammafunk> I mean I don't see how it's fundamentally different
23:25:04 <PleasingFungus> fundamentally different is a stronger term than i'd use.
23:25:37 <gammafunk> well limited # of chars using staves is too strong as well, I mean I assume you're also removing book acquirement
23:25:41 <PleasingFungus> mm
23:25:43 <PleasingFungus> merge book & staff acq
23:25:45 <PleasingFungus> magic acq
23:25:47 <PleasingFungus> spellcaster acq
23:25:49 <gammafunk> possible
23:25:49 <CanOfWorms> merge all acquirement...
23:25:53 <PleasingFungus> merge worms
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23:25:56 <gammafunk> no!
23:25:59 <gammafunk> they're gross
23:26:04 <nicolae-> What would you like to acquire? [a] - what's the best thing you got
23:26:11 <|amethyst> could have acquirement ask you for a specific item
23:26:13 <CanOfWorms> gozag's platinum reserve
23:27:04 <nicolae-> exactly
23:27:07 <PleasingFungus> the minigame of "in what area am i weakest right now? with what category will acq help me the most?" seems like the core thing i like, about scroll acq
23:27:34 <minmay> a minigame that you can't play unless you're spoiled
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23:28:06 <doy> i don't think that's true
23:28:18 <gammafunk> When you say weakest, what do you mean by that?
23:28:27 <gammafunk> When I acquire weapon it's not my weakest area
23:29:15 <gammafunk> I have to account for the fact that the best weapon type is just hard to get and weapon has a pretty nice chance of giving me that type
23:29:25 <CanOfWorms> have acquirement reveal one of the category results and play it like a mystery box
23:29:44 <regret-index> NAME:  acquirement_monty_hall
23:30:01 <gammafunk> if we could make a little jack-in-the-box go off as you acquire, could be nice
23:30:08 <CanOfWorms> do you want this +1 eveningstar of protection... or the mystery armour???
23:30:45 <regret-index> # There are three doors. The idea is to have the player pick one of the doors, two have jellies, one has a sheep (the sheep is the 'win' here, since it is no threat opposed to the jellies).
23:31:11 <regret-index> the terrifying... well okay d:2 jelly but d:7 jelly really
23:31:17 <CanOfWorms> I've played that vault a few times
23:33:31 <minmay> @??sheep
23:33:31 <Gretell> sheep (15Y) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 14-19 | AC/EV: 2/7 | Dam: 13 | Res: 06magic(10) | XP: 28 | Sz: Medium | Int: animal.
23:33:33 <minmay> @??jelly
23:33:33 <Gretell> jelly (04J) | Spd: 10 | HD: 3 | HP: 14-19 | AC/EV: 0/2 | Dam: 308(acid:7d3) | 04eats items, amphibious, see invisible, unbreathing | Res: 06magic(10), 03poison, 08acid+++, 08blind, 12drown | XP: 42 | Sz: small | Int: brainless.
23:33:47 <PleasingFungus> er
23:33:54 <minmay> ...i'm pretty sure the jelly is less of a threat, and was especially less of a threat back when that vault was made and they were slow
23:33:57 <PleasingFungus> that's gotta date back to when jellies corroded permanently
23:33:57 <gammafunk> !tell ontoclasm One thing I noticed about new ally halos is that orbs of destruction look pretty bad in them
23:33:58 <Sequell> gammafunk: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know.
23:34:08 <PleasingFungus> so the idea was that you might have a -1 enchant on something!!!
23:34:20 <PleasingFungus> idk
23:34:23 <gammafunk> !tell ontoclasm I think it's that they're the same shape and basically the same size as each other
23:34:23 <Sequell> gammafunk: OK, I'll let ontoclasm know.
23:34:26 <regret-index> or it kills you because on d:2 you don't have your slots covered :P
23:34:34 <PleasingFungus> mm
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23:35:57 <minmay> when I found that vault ingame I always assumed the sheep was the good result because it could give you food
23:36:08 <minmay> good to know that the truth is even more ridiculous
23:36:11 <CanOfWorms> the sheep is the good result because xom likes sheep
23:36:11 <PleasingFungus> lol
23:36:25 <minmay> i thought xom only liked sheep when they were on fire
23:36:35 <regret-index> give xom the old herd card
23:36:35 <CanOfWorms> a minor detail
23:36:49 <gammafunk> sheepfire card
23:36:50 <regret-index> his worshippers are shepards to chaos
23:36:59 <gammafunk> summons berserked, inner-flamed sheep
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23:37:07 <CanOfWorms> sheep with af_chaos bites
23:37:21 <minmay> fr change the vault to this http://66.media.tumblr.com/5a444404271a5fbc44c179e197e7933a/tumblr_inline_nm0b3oimo71rp4qx2_500.jpg
23:37:25 <regret-index> rename chaos spawn to chaos sheep
23:37:50 <PleasingFungus> augh
23:39:05 <minmay> rename human to sheeple
23:40:13 <CanOfWorms> that image reminds me of this: http://existentialcomics.com/comic/106
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23:45:37 <doy> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3911
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23:58:47 <minmay> who pushed nicolae in front of the trolley
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23:59:23 <CanOfWorms> http://static.tumblr.com/c7f55a82be273d90dd1ae2a9840f4f94/mbb2wao/xHzmnup1h/tumblr_static_it_was_me_dio.jpg
23:59:38 <minmay> that url kind of defeats the point